Nintendo Officially Sponsors Apex 2015!

[Sonic94]

Hey Sakurai, if Smash isn't fit to be a fighting game played seriously, then why is your employer investing thousands into endorsing it in the biggest fighting game competition of the year?

Mashpotato Samurai is out of the loop.

Indeed

 

[Vigilante]

@ Vigilante Sup.

I'm taking the wait and see approach. As far as NoA is concerned, their Treehouse have been incredibly diplomatic despite not knowing much about competitive gaming or having much experience in PR stunts. The best way to improve is to test those limits, so let's go, baby.

I like NOA in general. They're a good crew. My problem was enver with them but the upper management in Japan. Nevertheless, there isn' tmuch we can do right now but keep on PMing.

 

[Vigilante]

@ Vigilante Sup.

I'm taking the wait and see approach. As far as NoA is concerned, their Treehouse have been incredibly diplomatic despite not knowing much about competitive gaming or having much experience in PR stunts. The best way to improve is to test those limits, so let's go, baby.

I like NOA in general. They're a good crew. My problem was enver with them but the upper management in Japan. Nevertheless, there isn' tmuch we can do right now but keep on PMing.

 

[Sonic94]

Hey Sakurai, if Smash isn't fit to be a fighting game played seriously, then why is your employer investing thousands into endorsing it in the biggest fighting game competition of the year?

Mashpotato Samurai is out of the loop.

Indeed

 

[himemiya]

Welp we can kiss p:m chance of shinning goodbye, also when can we expect nintendo to toss us like yesterday's trash?

 

[Blitzus]

It's joined as a partner to Smashboards? How will the PM board be handled?

 

[EpixAura]

Just bear with Nintendo, here. This will probably be the last thing they do for the competitive community before they finally stop pretending to care. Let the Apex staff take the money and be happy. I know for me personally and thousands of others, this drops the entertainment value of Apex drastically, but I wouldn't be surprised to see PM picking back up once Nintendo stops throwing money at us, and believe me, they almost certainly will after this.
Long term, when all the hype for Smash 4 that Nintendo built up through advertising and throwing money around has died down, which do you think will succeed competitively? A game filled with slight improvements to a game the majority of us didn't like in the first place, with blatant balance problems and (going by the interview with Sakurai) a lack of necessary balance changes to fix clear problems with the game. A game that suffers from mechanics like Rage that can be described as nothing short of anti-competitive (and make no mistake, rage is worse than tripping ever was). A game with flaws that clearly portray it has made with a poor understanding of the competitive community?
Or a game made with us, the competitive Smashers, from both Melee and Brawl backgrounds in mind. A game with more viable stages, more viable characters, and a community that's largely used to being the underdog game at events?
This won't the only time PM is shunned for Smash 4, but over time, it's pretty clear what will happen unless Nintendo is willing to keep sponsoring event after event. Of course, if they cared about marketing to us that much, they would have made Smash 4 a very different game to begin with.

 

[SmashBro99]

Cya Project M nerds.

 

[Pazzo.]

Five bucks says there's a Smash vs. Smash Debate going on above this comment.

 

[LimitCrown]

Just bear with Nintendo, here. This will probably be the last thing they do for the competitive community before they finally stop pretending to care. Let the Apex staff take the money and be happy. I know for me personally and thousands of others, this drops the entertainment value of Apex drastically, but I wouldn't be surprised to see PM picking back up once Nintendo stops throwing money at us, and believe me, they almost certainly will after this.
Long term, when all the hype for Smash 4 that Nintendo built up through advertising and throwing money around has died down, which do you think will succeed competitively? A game filled with slight improvements to a game the majority of us didn't like in the first place, with blatant balance problems and (going by the interview with Sakurai) a lack of necessary balance changes to fix clear problems with the game. A game that suffers from mechanics like Rage that can be described as nothing short of anti-competitive (and make no mistake, rage is worse than tripping ever was). A game with flaws that clearly portray it has made with a poor understanding of the competitive community?
Or a game made with us, the competitive Smashers, from both Melee and Brawl backgrounds in mind. A game with more viable stages, more viable characters, and a community that's largely used to being the underdog game at events?
This won't the only time PM is shunned for Smash 4, but over time, it's pretty clear what will happen unless Nintendo is willing to keep sponsoring event after event. Of course, if they cared about marketing to us that much, they would have made Smash 4 a very different game to begin with.

Yes, because apparently balance patches need to be released very frequently, there are supposedly not many viable characters in Smash 4, and Brawl is supposedly not liked by a majority of people. Melee had many flaws, too, and I don't see how the rage mechanic is worse than the random tripping that can occur during the beginning of a dash in Brawl.

Also, your complaints about there not being a lot of "viable" stages in Smash 4 are unfounded. Your complaints about Smash 4 seem to be that the mechanics aren't similar to Project M or Melee.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Justice. :3

 

[Aldo]

Dang it, Nintendo. Looks like i'll just be watching everything but Brawl and Sm4sh.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Dang it, Nintendo. Looks like i'll just be watching everything but Brawl and Sm4sh.

What, why?

 

[EpixAura]

Yes, because apparently balance patches need to be released very frequently, there are supposedly not many viable characters in Smash 4, and Brawl is supposedly not liked by a majority of people. Melee had many flaws, too, and I don't see how the rage mechanic is worse than the random tripping that can occur during the beginning of a dash in Brawl.

Also, your complaints about there not being a lot of "viable" stages in Smash 4 are unfounded. Your complaints about Smash 4 seem to be that the mechanics aren't similar to Project M or Melee.

It's not that balance patches need to be frequent. I just don't trust Nintendo to do more than one more balance patch before calling it quits. Balance always seems nice in the first few months of the game. We've already seen Diddy pick up steam very quickly, and I don't expect things to change in that regard any time soon. When I say Brawl isn't liked by the majority of us, I mean the competitive Smash communties, and frankly, this is a statement I stand by (Keep in mind "isn't liked' and "hated" are two different things).
On the topic of Rage, it is much worse than tripping due to the sheer amount of impact that it has on the players. I see more people lose to Rage in a single tournament than I've seen people lose to tripping since Brawl came out. Rage also benefits to losing player, which I'd argue is worse than benefiting a random player, since 9 times out of 10, if you are losing, it's because you deserve to. Both are unquestionably terrible mechanics in a competitive game, but Rage is much worse.
As for viable stages, I only mean in comparison to PM. Melee has this problem as well (and as you said, many others), but Melee isn't something I need to defend. It has it's flaws, but they aren't nearly as sever. In regards to mechanics, my main problems (besides Rage) are the new ledge. I actually love invincibility not refreshing, as planking was a problem for all games. Making recoveries mindlessly safe and doing away with edgehogging makes a huge portion of the cast impossible to edgeguard, though, and this is not a healthy mechanic. If the opponent is on stage, and you are offstage, then odds are, you've messed up, and should be punished for putting yourself in a bad position. However, because of the new ledge, that's not the case, even less so than in Brawl, even.
The cast is also a problem. Lucario is simply uncompetitive by design, but is too good of a character to ignore. Many characters are entirely based on camping, much more so than Melee and PM, and while this being a bad thing is a matter of opinion, most people would enjoy watching or playing faster paced matches. Rolling exacerbates this, making committing to moves, often even perfectly spaced ones, unsafe and therefore encourages more reactive and less aggressive play. Overall, the game suffers from similar problems to Brawl, and while some are slightly less of an issue, some are much worse. While I do dislike the fact that the game's mechanics differ so drastically from Melee and PM despite the fact that Nintendo acted as though they understood the competitive community, that is not my primary issue with the game.

 

[JipC]

It's like NoA is smart enough to endorse tournaments but Sakurai is totally against it. Such a disconnect, I think.
And since this is NoA, not Sakurai, maybe they actually care about us other than just Smash 4? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[kaizo13]

why are people saying RIP P:M?

..more like RIP Smash 4. You guys aren't getting any more balance patches. You are stuck with diddy kong and all the poor matchups in the game.

P:M on the other hand can be adjusted at will and is under the development of dedicated smash fans that want nothing but to give the community a great smashing experience...

 

[EndlessRain]

This has been an insane week. LiquidCurse, Ken vs. Chris, then this...
I need to lie down.

 

[BanchoBowser]

Poor Killer Instinct and their 10 players ;w;

 

[kesterstudios]

smash 4 has a good number of participates for being a game that just came out. there should be much more the next years.

 

[Aguki90]

I knew Nintendo gonna be a Sponsor Apex 2015, This one step for the future of Smash.

After all when I saw that Project M was not there, I knew Nintendo is around but...

PM got is Out but Not SSB Flash 2? Nah, I want to See Isaac in Action!

 

[Caryslan]

Why did they even bother with Brawl when Smash 64 has more players?

If they wanted a fourth game, they should have added Smash 3DS to Apex. At the very least, that game would have attracted more people then Brawl will.

 

[Caryslan]

why are people saying RIP P:M?

..more like RIP Smash 4. You guys aren't getting any more balance patches. You are stuck with diddy kong and all the poor matchups in the game.

P:M on the other hand can be adjusted at will and is under the development of dedicated smash fans that want nothing but to give the community a great smashing experience...

I don't see how this will kill Smash 4 given 64 and Melee had their share of dominant characters and poor matchups and those games have thrived for years. Hell, other fighting games like Marvel Vs Capcom 2 endured at Evo for years despite the game pretty much being dominated by the four gods and a handful of characters that were only played for their assists.

Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3 also no longer gets balance patches, but is still a mainstay at Evo despite Morrgan, Zero, Wolverine, Virgil, and Doom showing up in most of the teams.

Every fighting game has poor matchups. Good luck trying to win a Melee tournament with Kirby or 64 tournament with Samus.

The reason why Brawl got slammed as badly as it did with Balance was because a single character dominated the game to the point where they were virtually unbeatable. In other words, they rendered the rest of the cast irrelevant to play.

Diddy is no doubt a wait and see thing, but other characters are winning Smash 4 tournaments, and it seems like the gap between characters is much smaller then it was in Brawl.

Here's the other thing to keep in mind, for as balanced as Project M is, there are still tier lists and certain characters sit at the bottom of that list, like any other fighting game.

Hell, they have a single character in Mewtwo who is in a tier by himself. Granted, the gap may be smaller between characters, but Project M for all the praise it gets for being balanced is no different in the end. There are top tier character that are much better then the lower tier characters.

Yes, the team can fix it, but you think that will last forever? One of these days, the team will stop updating Smash 4 either due to the team losing interest or player interest dropping.

My point is this, Smash 4 will not lose players unless Diddy becomes virtually unbeatable vs the rest of the cast like Meta Knight was. If other characters can be viable and win tournaments, then I see Smash 4 staying popular at tournaments, especially if Nintendo throws their support behind the game.

 

[Pureownege75]

No, no it isn't. The devs have put so much love and care into adding tons and tons of amazing things: a rebalanced roster, new mechanics and techniques, redesigned stages, beautiful costumes, and brand new game modes. There is far, far, far, far, far, far more to it than "just Melee". You don't have to be a fan, but please don't belittle their hard work like that.

Also, regarding how "we" wanted acknowledgement from Nintendo, I don't know who "we" is supposed to be but I sure as hell never cared about any of that. I'm perfectly happy with a grassroots scene that's by and for the community. And I don't want any "acknowledgement" that ends up coming at the cost of part of the community. Speak for yourself, but don't act like you speak for everyone.

From a gameplay perspective, Project M is melee with more characters. The ENTIRE POINT of creating Project M was to make a game with Brawl's character roster, with Melee's play style.

 

[Mobes]

I'm sorry if the whereabouts of Nintendo employee's statements have been mentioned already, but where can I find sources for these?

 

[MegaMissingno]

From a gameplay perspective, Project M is melee with more characters. The ENTIRE POINT of creating Project M was to make a game with Brawl's character roster, with Melee's play style.

And, y'know, all the other things I just mentioned? The physics may be Melee, but there's also so much more to it besides just the physics. Calling it "just Melee" when there's so much more than that is factually incorrect.

Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone.

In short, Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes.

Melee is the inspiration behind the project, but that doesn't mean they just stopped there. They've done far, far, far more with it than "just Melee". Are the alt costumes "just Melee"? Are revamped characters with brand new mechanics like Lucas, Lucario, Ivysaur, Snake, and more "just Melee"? Are the new stages "just Melee"? Is Turbo mode "just Melee"? Is All-Star Versus "just Melee"? Is wraparound stamina "just Melee"? Are DACUS and aerial glide tosses "just Melee"?

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

How can you be hype over this?

I swear the people hype about this are the same kind of people that enjoy smash 4. It's sad. Literally took out the second hypest thing of the whole event just so Nintendo could sponsor it. Which brings exactly nothing, because time and time again they embrace casuals more than the competitive play. They just saw a relatively big community in you which they can make money off.

****s sake are you people stupid.

Ya know... Nintendo could just not sponsor us and prevent Apex from streaming any sort of Smash game?How is it sad that people are supporting Nintendo and enjoy Smash 4? What's wrong with enjoying Smash 4? As long as we are all smashing, that's important, right? And yes PM is not at Apex (which really makes me sad and angry) but Nintendo sponsoring major tournaments is good for the Smash community as a whole in the long run. Sure they may not be doing much, but in the future, they may give out huge pot bonuses and setups and many other things. Sometimes, sacrifices have to be made in order to get something bigger. Also, Project M is a mod first and foremost and not a game made from scratch.

Yes they embrace casual players more than competitive players, but they are showing support by sponsoring major tournaments, allowing Apex and EVO to stream Melee and doing the Smash 4 invitational. Nintendo is slowly embracing competitive players and it will take a while until competitive players are equal to casual players.

And as for Nintendo wanting to make money off of us...that's right. Nintendo sees competitive Smash as a profitable thing as of recently. That doesn't mean that that's all they care about. Obviously they care about Smash, but they are a business too. If they are going to invest some money into things, they want to see some profit and exposure in return.

 

[DEEK4Y]

I see more people lose to Rage in a single tournament than I've seen people lose to tripping since Brawl came out. Rage also benefits to losing player, which I'd argue is worse than benefiting a random player, since 9 times out of 10, if you are losing, it's because you deserve to. Both are unquestionably terrible mechanics in a competitive game, but Rage is much worse.

Making recoveries mindlessly safe and doing away with edgehogging makes a huge portion of the cast impossible to edgeguard, though, and this is not a healthy mechanic. If the opponent is on stage, and you are offstage, then odds are, you've messed up, and should be punished for putting yourself in a bad position. However, because of the new ledge, that's not the case, even less so than in Brawl, even.

The cast is also a problem. Lucario is simply uncompetitive by design, but is too good of a character to ignore. Many characters are entirely based on camping, much more so than Melee and PM, and while this being a bad thing is a matter of opinion, most people would enjoy watching or playing faster paced matches.

Hang on a minute. What tournaments have you seen people lose to because of rage and only rage? Which players are you referring to and did they lose the championship? If you're going to make statements referencing your first-hand account, please provide evidence. Failure to provide an abundance of specific matches and players means you're making up scenarios and numbers to benefit your argument. Also, you're saying that rage only benefits the losing player? How about the winning player who's taken a stock or two and is at 100++%?? Isn't rage benefiting the winning player in that scenario, therefore affirming your statement that "the winning player deserves to win and the losing player deserves to lose"? Again, you're only focusing on one scenario in order to strengthen your argument which makes your point(s) flawed at the most fundamental level.

How exactly does the new ledge mechanic prevent punishing recoveries again? Please elaborate because I play smash 4 and I am still able to punish recoveries, granted it is not in the same fashion as melee, PM or brawl. Lastly, what is it that makes lucario noncompetitive by design again? What traits/skills are you referring to and how do they hinder his viability?

 

[LimitCrown]

Regarding the amount of viable stages, although Project M has more of them, the stages are mostly boring because their stage hazards were removed. The stage hazards make each of the stages that have them more different and unique compared to just making a different arrangement of platforms. I dislike that Norfair, Pokemon Stadium 2, and other stages don't have their stage hazards in Project M.

 

[Caryslan]

Hang on a minute. What tournaments have you seen people lose to because of rage and only rage? Which players are you referring to and did they lose the championship? If you're going to make statements referencing your first-hand account, please provide evidence. Failure to provide an abundance of specific matches and players means you're making up scenarios and numbers to benefit your argument. Also, you're saying that rage only benefits the losing player? How about the winning player who's taken a stock or two and is at 100++%?? Isn't rage benefiting the winning player in that scenario, therefore affirming your statement that "the winning player deserves to win and the losing player deserves to lose"? Again, you're only focusing on one scenario in order to strengthen your argument which makes your point(s) flawed at the most fundamental level.

How exactly does the new ledge mechanic prevent punishing recoveries again? Please elaborate because I play smash 4 and I am still able to punish recoveries, granted it is not in the same fashion as melee, PM or brawl. Lastly, what is it that makes lucario noncompetitive by design again? What traits/skills are you referring to and how do they hinder his viability?

Something I want to add....


What I don't get is what Rage is such a big deal when other fighting games have mechanics in place that give a losing player a boost? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3 has X-Factor which gets stronger based on how many characters are left on a player's team, Street Fighter IV has the Revenge Meter that grants access to an Ultra Attack which grows stronger based on the amount of damage a player takes, Tekken 6 has its own Rage mechanic, The King of Fighter games have gauges(varies on the game, but they commonly grant abilities based on low health), and even much older fighting games like Fatal Fury 2 have a super move that can only be done when a player is low on health.

In other words, tons of fighting games have a mechanic that helps a losing player have a chance at making a comeback. It makes for a more exciting game, and between two skilled players makes matches far more interesting.

If the winning player is really good, they should not lose to a comeback mechanic. Let me put it this way, I should never be able to beat a serious Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 player with X-Factor. A comeback mechanic like any other mechanic in a game, is another tool that lets a player turn a match around and gives them options, not an auto-win. Does rage help a losing player? Sure, but you still have to land a hit to take advantage of it.

Using X-Factor as an example player, it's a powerful tool but it can still be beaten. If an X-factor player is down to their last character and get caught in a combo, they still lose. In fact, you could make the argument that the pressure is on them, since the losing player has to make something happen before X-factor runs out.

It's the same with Rage, if a losing player triggers Rage, they still have to get a smash or KO move to take advantage of it. If they never land a good hit, and the other player never leaves themselves open, then they should not lose even if the other player has triggered Rage.

As for Lucario, I don't under stand the problem with him. Yes, he gets insane power with Aura, but he's also a glass cannon in the sense that he has to go to high damage percentages to get that kind of power. This makes him easier to KO, and he's weaker if he has the lead. So a Lucario player has to have a careful balance. Over 100% might give him insane power, but pretty much the rest of the cast can KO him easily at that percent.

Lucario is a risk, reward style character. What is the problem with that?

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Lucario is a risk, reward style character. What is the problem with that?

Thing is,he is rewarded just by surviving more so than other characters.Everyone is rewarded by staying alive because they keep a stock longer that way.Lucario gets extra benefit though.

 

[Voynich]

Dang, Killer Instinct with only 10 players lmao

 

[drewilliam]

Why are people happy about this? It was fine w/o Nintendo as long as they don't shut it down or interfere. We've seen things how turn out when they run it… The fans are better at delivering what the fans want. Smash has a great community completely from grassroots and it would be sad to see Nintendo just take over the whole community.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

@ Caryslan No, he is not a glass canon, because good DI along with his insane recovery allows him to survive for much longer than other characters. When using characters who have a hard time getting kills, sometimes Lucario can even live up to 170%.

@ drewilliam they are not taking over our community, they are supporting it. Anyways, it is not like they can take over.

 

[drewilliam]

Banning the second most popular Smash title =/= supporting. They have shown us how it goes when they run it, and people should be upset.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Banning the second most popular Smash title =/= supporting. They have shown us how it goes when they run it, and people should be upset.

I am pretty sure that legally, NoA is not allowed to without NoJ allowing them to, which proabably won't happen since NoJ does not seem to undertand that there is not really anything to lose from allowing PM at Apex. I am pretty sure NoA sees how good supporting PM could be.

 

[LimitCrown]

I am pretty sure that legally, NoA is not allowed to without NoJ allowing them to, which proabably won't happen since NoJ does not seem to undertand that there is not really anything to lose from allowing PM at Apex. I am pretty sure NoA sees how good supporting PM could be.

I don't think Nintendo can officially acknowledge Project M, though, due to how Project M is a mod.

 

[IronChar]

not surpised. STILL upset that project ms not gonna be there- thats like a big "F you" to those who us who play.

I'll watch to see which characters/player take the top... but other then that.... **** apex there are other tornys that support PM

 

[drewilliam]

Those details don't matter. Nintendo in General should just stay out of it if it means they'll change things. Including not allowing PM

 

[Karnu]

Most of you need to look at the long run, yes this will make a lot of people mad for now but for a tournament like Apex to get sponsorship from Nintendo is HUGE! This will do wonders for the long run! Sometimes you need to make sacrifices to improve things but I promise that it'll be worth it in the long run.

Biggest round of applause to the Project M team for being good sports, as much as it must hurt I'm glad you guys showing great appreciation to Nintendo nothing less!

This is coming from a Melee player who loves Project M BTW!

 

[Cahalan]

This may sound like a dumb idea BTW, but what if we KEEP NINTENDO as a partner for "Apex{insert year here}" and have Apex host a SEPARATE PM EVENT called "Project M @ Apex {insert year here}" or something along those lines. In theory you can still have Nintendo supporting the main Apex event and still run Project M AT APEX, but these two events must be separate.