Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Sucumbio]

I hope that the arisen from dragon dogma is more talked in the Smash community.

I've never played Dragon's Dogma is it good? Is it in Nintendo at all or crossed with Nintendo developers ever?

 

[Capybara Gaming]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larsonsoft/cross-impact-an-indie-crossover-platform-fighter

Another indie Smash style game, for anybody interested, though some of these choices are a bit... unique. Also, if you donate $1000, you'll be allowed to pick a character to add, apparently: I know some Smash fans who'd be willing to pay ten times that to get their dream pick in...

I discovered this a few days ago and made a quote retweet on Twitter pointing out the awfulness of the roster and the guy who's running the Kickstarter himself came out of the woodwork to call me an expletive.

The first character in the reveal, btw, is from his first indie title that no one has ever heard of. Lmao.


Of that lineup, I actually have heard of Hotline Miami, Ultrakill, YIIK, and Toree, but of that set the only real A lister is Hotline Miami.

It's got a Pizza Tower stage too which is cool, but the lineup is lacking otherwise. I don't necessarily think Toree and Ultrakill are bad but they definitely aren't the first... Or even thirtieth picks I would go for.

As for Alex YIIK... That was part of my comment of why the roster was trash. Who tf likes yiik?

 

[Wonder Smash]

Which also means saying "Who's need depth, it's Mario" is a weak defense which not only does the series disservice but also the movie itself in some ways. There were geniunely good moments within the movie. Just needed more time and less cuts.

It's not a disservice if the series was never meant to have depth in the first place.

Crash Bandicoot also doesn't have a deep plot, so if a movie was made on that, it's expected that the plot of the movie won't be deep either. But are people really going to criticize a Crash movie just because it doesn't have a deep plot? That wouldn't make any sense. It's not expected, so it shouldn't be held against it that much.

 

[Opossum]

It's not a disservice is the series was never meant to have depth in the first place.

Crash Bandicoot also doesn't have a deep plot, so if a movie was made on that, it's expected that the plot of the movie won't be deep either. But are people really going to criticize a Crash movie just because it doesn't have a deep plot? That wouldn't make any sense.

It absolutely makes sense. You need to make adjustments to a piece of media when you bring it into another medium. Games are an interactive experience, so it has the sort of ludonarrative type things to fall back on, as well as the gameplay itself, to shore up a bland, bad, or non-existent plot.

Film typically isn't an interactive medium. It's a passive one. And that makes the lack of a strong plot MUCH more noticeable.

Full disclosure. I enjoyed the Mario movie despite its flaws, but it's insane to pretend those flaws don't exist. The pacing is pretty much universally panned. The characters needed room to breathe instead of jumping from set piece to set piece. A longer runtime would've been easily justifiable here, especially since we know some scenes were truncated for time (the scene in the trailers of Mario and Peach walking over a bridge with Mario getting a Cheep Cheep stuck to him isn't in the film proper).

To say that people should be okay with a movie having a barebones or generic plot just because the video game source material had a barebones or generic plot shows a complete lack of understanding of the concept of adaptation.

Different creative mediums require different structures. That's what adaptation is. It takes something from one medium, and adapts it into another, and that includes fulfilling the expectations specific to the new medium. And because plots are much more crucial to a film than to a platformer video game, the film needs to punch up the former, lest it fail in its goal to be an adaptation.

If they're not willing to actually change things to suit the medium, then they shouldn't adapt it at all.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm still waiting for it to come out on free streaming but I have no illusions that the story is going to be pretty lukewarm. Mainly because it's a kid's cartoon not because it's a Mario movie. That said, even a simple kids cartoon can have poor writing in so far as it's not engaging enough for the older audiences that have to take the kids to the movie. Then there's the fact that a Mario movie is destined to be compared to everything that's come before it. Sometimes movies suffer from feeling more like a TV episode unless like a true movie experience. I recall thinking this about the second X-Files movie. And then video game adaptations themselves are notoriously difficult to translate to live action cinema.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Yeah, Saying the Mario Movie doesn't need depth may be true in someways. It doesn't to be a complex narrative, but it definitely needs a narrative. The Mario Movie did a decent-good job of that but improvements definitely need to made.

Saying "it's Mario, it needs no depth" is a cop-out because, other than it's not true, why even make a movie at all if the source material is apparently too shallow to make a solid story for this specific medium?

 

[Lenidem]

I think you're all arguing because you don't use the word "depth" in the same way.

 

[Oracle Link]

That’s a good point but didn’t they essentially do that with Ness? I’ve never played Earthbound but I remember people saying that Ness never actually learns many of the moves he uses in Smash in his own game and they were taken from other party members.

Ness is basically the medic in his game and his one attacking move is named by the player so yeah thats the reason!

 

[Megadoomer]

I discovered this a few days ago and made a quote retweet on Twitter pointing out the awfulness of the roster and the guy who's running the Kickstarter himself came out of the woodwork to call me an expletive.

The first character in the reveal, btw, is from his first indie title that no one has ever heard of. Lmao.


Of that lineup, I actually have heard of Hotline Miami, Ultrakill, YIIK, and Toree, but of that set the only real A lister is Hotline Miami.

It's got a Pizza Tower stage too which is cool, but the lineup is lacking otherwise. I don't necessarily think Toree and Ultrakill are bad but they definitely aren't the first... Or even thirtieth picks I would go for.

As for Alex YIIK... That was part of my comment of why the roster was trash. Who tf likes yiik?

That explains why I hadn't heard of the first character or the game they were from. I hadn't heard of the second character or their game either, but I'm not sure if it's a similar situation.

Hotline Miami seems like a good pick (from what little I've played of it), but nothing that I've heard about YIIK has been good, and I can't really comment on Toree 3D, Ultrakill, or Your Only Move Is HUSTLE (though the art style makes Cowboy look very similar to the characters from Nidhogg).

All in all, it doesn't grab me like how Fraymakers immediately got my attention, though in the case of Fraymakers, I was more familiar with the cast (knowing, or at least having seen, four of the six characters beforehand - I hadn't played Slap City, but I'd seen videos from it of Ultra Fishbunjin 3000 in action) and the developers had experience with Smash-like games that I'd heard of before like Super Smash Flash.

(though maybe I'm not being fair here; I realize that there are a TON of indie games out there, and it's not like every one is going to be a Shovel Knight, Shantae, or Undertale. I'll look into the games that make up this crossover, at least)

 

[Capybara Gaming]

That explains why I hadn't heard of the first character or the game they were from. I hadn't heard of the second character or their game either, but I'm not sure if it's a similar situation.

Hotline Miami seems like a good pick (from what little I've played of it), but nothing that I've heard about YIIK has been good, and I can't really comment on Toree 3D, Ultrakill, or Your Only Move Is HUSTLE (though the art style makes Cowboy look very similar to the characters from Nidhogg).

All in all, it doesn't grab me like how Fraymakers immediately got my attention, though in the case of Fraymakers, I was more familiar with the cast (knowing, or at least having seen, four of the six characters beforehand - I hadn't played Slap City, but I'd seen videos from it of Ultra Fishbunjin 3000 in action) and the developers had experience with Smash-like games that I'd heard of before like Super Smash Flash.

(though maybe I'm not being fair here; I realize that there are a TON of indie games out there, and it's not like every one is going to be a Shovel Knight, Shantae, or Undertale. I'll look into the games that make up this crossover, at least)

Yeah, not every indie game is gonna get that spotlight but at the very least if you're gonna call yourself "the ultimate celebration of indie gaming" you'd expect them to have more than just literal bottom of the barrel picks.

I can't stress enough how awful this roster is when it has 1 character generally in the public consciousness, a character that literally everyone hates, a character only people who watch Nitro Rad know, and his own ****ing OC. It's laughable in comparison to Fraymakers.

Not to mention the only character not created since the start of the pandemic is the Hotline Miami guy.

 

[Megadoomer]

Yeah, not every indie game is gonna get that spotlight but at the very least if you're gonna call yourself "the ultimate celebration of indie gaming" you'd expect them to have more than just literal bottom of the barrel picks.

I can't stress enough how awful this roster is when it has 1 character generally in the public consciousness, a character that literally everyone hates, a character only people who watch Nitro Rad know, and his own ****ing OC. It's laughable in comparison to Fraymakers.

Not to mention the only character not created since the start of the pandemic is the Hotline Miami guy.

It doesn't help that the trailer has some pretty false/misleading advertising. It calls this "the biggest crossover yet", and even if we're limiting it exclusively to platform fighters that act as crossovers between indie characters (rather than crossovers in general, in which case, it's nowhere near PlayStation All Stars in that regard, let alone Smash Bros. Ultimate), that's objectively false. (Indie Pogo has a larger amount of playable characters and more series represented)

 

[fogbadge]

i'm beginning to think i've been playing only the most middle of the road indie games as they never seem to appear in these types of things. bar a couple of bigger ones

 

[Wonder Smash]

It absolutely makes sense. You need to make adjustments to a piece of media when you bring it into another medium. Games are an interactive experience, so it has the sort of ludonarrative type things to fall back on, as well as the gameplay itself, to shore up a bland, bad, or non-existent plot.

Film typically isn't an interactive medium. It's a passive one. And that makes the lack of a strong plot MUCH more noticeable.

Full disclosure. I enjoyed the Mario movie despite its flaws, but it's insane to pretend those flaws don't exist. The pacing is pretty much universally panned. The characters needed room to breathe instead of jumping from set piece to set piece. A longer runtime would've been easily justifiable here, especially since we know some scenes were truncated for time (the scene in the trailers of Mario and Peach walking over a bridge with Mario getting a Cheep Cheep stuck to him isn't in the film proper).

To say that people should be okay with a movie having a barebones or generic plot just because the video game source material had a barebones or generic plot shows a complete lack of understanding of the concept of adaptation.

Different creative mediums require different structures. That's what adaptation is. It takes something from one medium, and adapts it into another, and that includes fulfilling the expectations specific to the new medium. And because plots are much more crucial to a film than to a platformer video game, the film needs to punch up the former, lest it fail in its goal to be an adaptation.

If they're not willing to actually change things to suit the medium, then they shouldn't adapt it at all.

Here's what you and some others don't seem to get; people are going to expect some changes in the medium that it's being adapted in but their expectations are still going to be influenced by what they already know about the series. To act like they're just supposed to forget about all that and focus on things that the series is NOT known for just because it's in another medium is not only senseless but it's borderline unrealistic.

Let's say the first Mario movie is focused on some kind of detective style mystery. It's a well-written one and got a heck of plot-twist nobody expected, we see sides of the characters that we never saw before. Great. It's got a lot of praises and everything. But here's the problem; I don't know that Mario. I've never seen that Mario before and I sure wasn't expecting to see him when I started watching this movie. Because the Mario I know doesn't focus on plot twists, detective mysteries, or anything like that. Sure, the plot is really good, well-written, better than anything than the games did, so for a movie, it did a great job. But for a Mario adaptation, it did VERY poorly.

Notice the distinction I just made; a great movie, it was but a great Mario adaptation, it wasn't. That's because fans, with their knowledge of the series, are expecting to see what they know about the games in the form of a movie. If Mario never had much of a plot worth talking about in the games, then it shouldn't be a surprise if it doesn't have much of a plot worth talking about in the movie. I'm not saying it's an excuse for poor writing but I am saying that poor writing is hardly an issue for a series that's not even known for its writing in the first place.

That's why I say as a life-long Mario fan and movie fan myself, I'm not expecting much out of the writing when I watch this movie soon.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If Sol Badguy were to be a playable character in a future Smash title, what music tracks would you like to see him come with?

 

[Wonder Smash]

If Sol Badguy were to be a playable character in a future Smash title, what music tracks would you like to see him come with?

All the ones from Guilty Gear X and the X2 games.

 

[HyperSomari64]

If Sol Badguy were to be a playable character in a future Smash title, what music tracks would you like to see him come with?

Aside of the obvious non-GG franchises (Technos's IPs, BlazBlue), could they consider music from games Arcsys doesn't own yet published like French-Bread's Under Night or Team Arcana's Arcana Heart?

 

[Amornal1]

I've never played Dragon's Dogma is it good? Is it in Nintendo at all or crossed with Nintendo developers ever?

Yes, It is very good, and its on the switch.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Aside of the obvious non-GG franchises (Technos's IPs, BlazBlue), could they consider music from games they don't own yet published like French-Bread's Under Night or Team Arcana's Arcana Heart?

Nope. Like you said, they don't own those games.

Also, I'm pretty sure only Guilty Gear music will come with Sol.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Nope. Like you said, they don't own those games.

Also, I'm sure only Guilty Gear music will come with Sol.

Good point, but at least ASW could include a Ragna Mii costume with a special music track and that being a Smash-exclusive remixed medley of various character themes from different BB characters.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Aside of the obvious non-GG franchises (Technos's IPs, BlazBlue), could they consider music from games Arcsys doesn't own yet published like French-Bread's Under Night or Team Arcana's Arcana Heart?

Is ArcSys trying to buy Under Night and Arcana Heart?

Edit: Oh you mean they published them, I see that now.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Edit: Oh you mean they published them, I see that now.

As a remider, the Bit.Trip series was published by ASW in Japan.
It's kinda weird, i would be like if SEGA included Destroy All Humans content to Smash because it was initally published by them in Japan (later THQ would have a Japanese branch)

 

[Wonder Smash]

Good point, but at least ASW could include a Ragna Mii costume with a special music track and that being a Smash-exclusive remixed medley of various character themes from different BB characters.

Yeah, a Ragna Mii costume is definitely possible. I can picture that happening. Maybe coming alongside Sol.

Music coming with it? I'm not confident in the chances of that. Though it's not impossible.

 

[Perkilator]

Delzethin just released his Meowscarada video

 

[DarthEnderX]

Basically, the only real designation for who is the Echo is who was shown off in the dual trailer first. Seems a good way to look at it at the end of the day. Echoes come after their counterpart, easy~

I mean, their numbers make it very clear. Simon is 66 and Richter is 66e.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, their numbers make it very clear. Simon is 66 and Richter is 66e.

...Because of who was shown off first. That's literally how the numbers work. They are directly numbered based upon who was shown off first in the series as a trailer or introduced first. This is the sole reason Sheik comes before Zelda.

So as I said, who gets shown off first was the core way we knew which was the Echo and which was the original. As that was the intended point behind the reveals.

This was talking about determining who is who based upon the trailer designs and orders, not the website anyway. While the website was early, it had no real bearing on speculation till the very end thanks to them showing off there was two slots left. Outside of that, it never really mattered. Reveal order being numbered was neat, but the point behind the reveal order was more "this is how the roster order will be" then anything else. Echoes minorly are noted for that, but the core relevance to it was just generally Stacking(and as I said before, one time for figuring out the final two characters and how they fit into the game, though not necessarily which two outside of a separate leak helping that along).

 

[Wonder Smash]

You know, this talk about movies and adaptations got me thinking about Sora. His inclusion in Smash once again reminds me how wild this crossover is and how much I enjoy it. He comes from a series that's kind of like one big compilation of Disney movie adaptations itself.

So you got a character like Sora who kind of literally jump into a bunch of movies and then you got characters like Ice Climbers and Duck Hunt, both which came from an era where many games like theirs didn't even have stories.

If it wasn't for Smash Bros., it's like there wouldn't be any reason for these characters from these very different games to ever crossover at all. Like, at any point.

I guess that's what I like about Duck Hunt and Ice Climbers in Smash. They are truly straight from the NES era. No sequels, no remakes, no updates, or anything. They are pure NES old school. And yet, here they are, chilling with characters that either got everything I just said, or with characters that came from later eras and from games that wouldn't have been possible to make back in their day.

Metal Gear Solid and Kingdom Hearts? Plenty of details in the gameplay and a story just like a movie.
Duck Hunt? You just gotta get a high score.

 

[Sucumbio]

Smash introduced me to fire emblem and Kirby and I get to fight mf Bowser with Snaaaaaake. God is good.

 

[Oracle Link]

Yeah speaking of smash being a big crossover while i agree the franchises involved were picked fantasticly!
(Like the only complaint i have is maybe Terry being unknown to me personally and maybe sora shouldve had the star dream Keyblade (Is It even called that)
Its Franchises were chosen really well i wont argue on that!

 

[DarthEnderX]

So as I said, who gets shown off first was the core way we knew which was the Echo and which was the original. As that was the intended point behind the reveals.

You make it sound like Nintendo made the trailers, and then went "Richter was revealed 2nd, so I guess he's the Echo." When they logically would have went "Okay, Richter is the echo, make sure the trailer reveals him 2nd."

This was talking about determining who is who based upon the trailer designs and orders, not the website anyway.

Okay but...WHY are we talking about that again? Why are you trying to figure out a weird trailer method when Nintendo just straight up tells you who the Echo is with the numbers?

 

[Gengar84]

Smash introduced me to fire emblem and Kirby and I get to fight mf Bowser with Snaaaaaake. God is good.

I was also introduced to Fire Emblem through Smash. I was already a big Kirby fan and I loved Kirby Superstar on the SNES. I wasn’t very familiar with Earthbound, Kid Icarus, Ice Climbers, Pikmin, or Game & Watch but I think I was at least aware of their existence, just not much beyond that. There are other properties in Smash that I’ve never played any games from like Animal Crossing, ARMS, and Splatoon but I was familiar with them. Other series like King of Fighters/Fatal Fury where I’ve only played them for around 10 minutes in an arcade if you want to count that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I was also introduced to Fire Emblem through Smash. I was already a big Kirby fan and I loved Kirby Superstar on the SNES. I wasn’t very familiar with Earthbound, Kid Icarus, Ice Climbers, Pikmin, or Game & Watch but I think I was at least aware of their existence, just not much beyond that.

I didn't know what Fire Emblem, Ice Climbers and G&W were before Smash. And while I knew what Xenoblade was, I didn't know Shulk.

 

[Gengar84]

I didn't know what Fire Emblem, Ice Climbers and G&W were before Smash. And while I knew what Xenoblade was, I didn't know Shulk.

I think I have a problem where I tend to stick with games from established IP rather than try out a bunch of completely new ones. I’ve still played and enjoyed some new IPs over the years like Xenoblade, Octopath, Astral Chain, and others but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule. For that reason, I’m very unfamiliar with most indie games. I didn’t recognize a single character from that crossover posted recently. I even had to Google who YIIK was since people seemed to have a strong negative opinion of him and I never heard of him before.

I have the same issue with music. Almost all the bands I listen to are from the 90’s and early 2000’s. Mostly, I tend to listen to a lot of video game and anime soundtracks along with some of my favorite bands like Evanessence, Disturbed, and Linkin Park. I have no idea what’s popular today. For example, I had no idea who Bad Bunny was before he showed up in the WWE. The same is true for movies. I’ll watch Marvel movies, the Mario movie, and TMNT in theaters but I can’t remember the last time I’ve done that with something truly original. Maybe as far back as the original Avatar. That probably means I have to broaden my horizons in just about everything from games to music to movies.

 

[Oracle Link]

I think I have a problem where I tend to stick with games from established IP rather than try out a bunch of completely new ones. I’ve still played and enjoyed some new IPs over the years like Xenoblade, Octopath, Astral Chain, and others but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule. For that reason, I’m very unfamiliar with most indie games. I didn’t recognize a single character from that crossover posted recently. I even had to Google who YIIK was since people seemed to have a strong negative opinion of him and I never heard of him before.

I have the same issue with music. Almost all the bands I listen to are from the 90’s and early 2000’s. Mostly, I tend to listen to a lot of video game and anime soundtracks along with some of my favorite bands like Evanessence, Disturbed, and Linkin Park. I have no idea what’s popular today. For example, I had no idea who Bad Bunny was before he showed up in the WWE. The same is true for movies. I’ll watch Marvel movies, the Mario movie, and TMNT in theaters but I can’t remember the last time I’ve done that with something truly original. Maybe as far back as the original Avatar. That probably means I have to broaden my horizons in just about everything from games to music to movies.

YIIK Isnt a a character its a game i think the main char of it was called alex!

 

[Will]

I even had to Google who YIIK was

Metroid moment

 

[Gengar84]

Metroid moment

Lol I told you I had no idea about it at least.

 

[silenthunder]

Scribblenauts is labeled an indie game on steam. Is that right?

 

[FazDude]

Scribblenauts is labeled an indie game on steam. Is that right?

It might have been in the past, but IIRC it's currently owned by WB Games.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I was also introduced to Fire Emblem through Smash. I was already a big Kirby fan and I loved Kirby Superstar on the SNES. I wasn’t very familiar with Earthbound, Kid Icarus, Ice Climbers, Pikmin, or Game & Watch but I think I was at least aware of their existence, just not much beyond that. There are other properties in Smash that I’ve never played any games from like Animal Crossing, ARMS, and Splatoon but I was familiar with them. Other series like King of Fighters/Fatal Fury where I’ve only played them for around 10 minutes in an arcade if you want to count that.

The only series I knew absolutely nothing about prior to Smash were Earthbound and Fire Emblem. Ness, Marth, and Roy were literal "whos" to me.

The others I was aware of but never played them at that time. I still have The Official Nintendo Player's Guide that features a lot of NES games, including Ice Climber and Kid Icarus, so that's how I knew about them.

I remember seeing a commercial of Kirby's Adventure and thinking it looked like Super Mario Bros. 3 but never played any of the games at that time.

I knew about Pokemon, which was REALLY huge when the first Smash game came out but I only watched the anime. Just as a way to familiarize myself with the series and get a good idea of what it's about.

I actually did have Game & Watch Gallery 3 but it still took me awhile to understand who Mr. Game & Watch himself was, as I hardly played the original Game & Watch versions of those games.

Knew about Pikmin but wasn't interested in playing it.

I played the first Animal Crossing but only because it had NES games in it and THAT'S when I was finally able to play Ice Climber.

Never played ARMS or Splatoon but I have played pretty much every Fatal Fury games. In fact, my first time playing them were back on the SNES.

 

[Opossum]

Scribblenauts is labeled an indie game on steam. Is that right?

Definitely a mislabeling. WB Interactive owns the IP.

 

[Will]

I only learned about games and franchises from two things as a kid: chuggaaconroy and Super Smash Bros. The only time I think I’ve truly known a character before they got on Smash was Terry, because I had a lot of SNK games I experienced before Smash.