Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Aligo]

Thinking about it, I'd be surprised if Isabelle wasn't a top priority for Ultimate. Even at the time the project plan was drafted she was a clear rising star among Nintendo's cast and was all over advertising both in and out of Animal Crossing. I'd imagine as soon as they knew they were doing another Smash game she was at the top of the list alongside Inklings.

Given she was a top priority, they didn't put too much work into her moveset.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

looks at Yoshi, Wario, F-Zero and Punch Out!

I mean, Alph is pretty nice to see even if he is a costume for the most part. And he was planned to be an Echo of Olimar, so Pikmin at least almost has a 2nd character.

To be fair, Yoshi and Wario are part of the Mario universe.

 

[Perkilator]

Given she was a top priority, they didn't put too much work into her moveset.

Well, considering that the base game was primarily bringing back every fighter, I imagine there was only so much they could do so they decided to use Villager as a base in some way.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Unless they... y'know... don't.

I'm gonna make a game outta this:

F-Zero: Either Samurai Goroh gets promoted or Black Shadow is made an Echo
Punch-Out: King Hippo
Yoshi: Kamek or Baby Mario
Pikmin: Alph gets promoted to Echo
Wario: Ashley

I know it's basic, but I don't know these series very well...

 

[dream1ng]

To be fair, Yoshi and Wario are part of the Mario universe.

Well so is DK and it has three characters.

This isn't about who makes the most sense for another character, because yeah obviously series like Yoshi and Punch-Out not having a second character isn't that crazy. It's just about how it's hardly an absolute of "single-rep series always get another character", which clearly isn't true.

I know it's basic, but I don't know these series very well...

Fwiw you did pick all the likeliest options. At least until Pikmin 4 arrives with its new MC.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

With Yoshi, part of its that Kamek is the only real prominent consistent character in that series, and he may be considered by Sakurai and company as more of a Mario mook than chief antagonist of the Yoshi series (and isn't enough of a WTF pick like Plant to boot). With Wario I often wonder if its a case where Captain Syrup or various Ware characters have some popularity, but not no one figure has enough big requests internally or by fans to get the spotlight.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

With Yoshi, part of its that Kamek is the only real prominent consistent character in that series, and he may be considered by Sakurai and company as more of a Mario mook than chief antagonist of the Yoshi series (and isn't enough of a WTF pick like Plant to boot). With Wario I often wonder if its a case where Captain Syrup or various Ware characters have some popularity, but not no one figure has enough big requests internally or by fans to get the spotlight.

The closest to a big WarioWare pick is Ashley, but her support is a lot more quiet these days. She had some hype going into Ultimate, but after her AT reveal it kind of fizzled out. Honestly if I were to compare her to any character fanbase wise, I would say Krystal. They had a lot of hype and "momentum" going into their Smash game where they were a large request but after they missed the boat they just did not reach that peak again.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Given she was a top priority, they didn't put too much work into her moveset.

I dunno. I think Isabelle is super fun. Semi-clones are worthwhile additions and Isabelle's changes made one of my least favorite movesets (Villager) into something I seriously enjoy.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The closest to a big WarioWare pick is Ashley, but her support is a lot more quiet these days. She had some hype going into Ultimate, but after her AT reveal it kind of fizzled out. Honestly if I were to compare her to any character fanbase wise, I would say Krystal. They had a lot of hype and "momentum" going into their Smash game where they were a large request but after they missed the boat they just did not reach that peak again.

It didn't help that Wario Ware itself generally went into a bit of hibernation period in the years after Brawl, with spin-off variants such as Game and Wario or compilations like Gold that felt like last gasp games for the dying 3DS. The best chance for characters like Ashley was a big prominent spotlight release and it essentially failed to really get one until 2021.

 

[dream1ng]

I think Isabelle's moveset is a function of Sakurai having a hard time translating AC to Smash. Because it is true that characters that prioritized usually end up unique. I think the one other instance of a prioritized semi-clone is Lucas in Brawl, but I believe that was a result of the original intention to replace Ness, which, iirc, they walked back on after learning Mother 3 wasn't going to be localized.

I find the whole business strange, considering coming up with a second unique AC moveset is something people within the fanbase managed to do. But we're not Sakurai, he has his own view of stuff. Often for better, sometimes for worse.

The closest to a big WarioWare pick is Ashley, but her support is a lot more quiet these days. She had some hype going into Ultimate, but after her AT reveal it kind of fizzled out. Honestly if I were to compare her to any character fanbase wise, I would say Krystal. They had a lot of hype and "momentum" going into their Smash game where they were a large request but after they missed the boat they just did not reach that peak again.

She had a lot of hype at the outset of Ultimate, and then it just evaporated in a way you rarely see for a character that popular. Usually there's residual attention that gradually fades over time, like Krystal, Goroh, Starfy and Takamaru. But hers just went out like a light-switch.
Though tbf Krystal still performs not bad for a character who has had ****ing nothing going for her since before Brawl. If she was in Ashley's position of being recently active, forget about it, she'd be right up there.

Maybe it will come back... I don't know. But there are characters where you can tell the popularity won't permanently be hindered after deconfirmation like Waluigi or Isaac, or, honestly, even like Skull Kid. I'm not sure how things will play out for Ashley. I hope she rebounds.

 

[Dinoman96]

Vocal support for characters will come and go depending on circumstances. There was a time when Geno was considered a relic of Brawl speculation that people seemingly stopped caring about (i.e what people say about Krystal these days), until Sakurai actually acknowledged him and his fanbase at the end of Smash 4.

In other words:

 

[SPEN18]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

I have some thoughts on these.

Advance Wars...well the reboot is presumably still coming; as for a brand new game I think there is a solid chance if the reboot is successful. Unfortunately the delay will likely dampen the success of the reboot, though, so I hope Nintendo takes the circumstances into account when evaluating how it does.
As for a Smash rep, I have long been hopeful for it, but likely the series needs the brand new game beyond just the remake, and probably also that new game needs to be released in and successful in Japan, which even I'll admit is a relatively tall order when the reboot camp might not even release in Japan AFAIK.

I've talked about ARMS in here recently, so I'll just reiterate that it probably needs a sequel to get a second rep and that said sequel seems relatively unlikely but certainly not impossible. ARMS fit its bill as an early-lifecycle proof-of-concept of sorts for the JoyCons; I don't know that it was successful enough to grow into more than that but at least it has a lovable cast to work with if they wanted to expand on that universe.

Astral Chain, if it got in, would likely be on the lower-priority end and would likely require us to get a large number of newcomers on the scale of 4, in which case it could potentially fit into a Shulk-type roster slot as a niche but still reasonably recent first party series. It sold over 1mil, which is great for a new IP, but in the context of the Switch's large install base it's not over-the-top impressive relative to the performances of other IPs on the same system. My guess is that Astral Chain may very well fall into the vein of many other first party series that had comparable levels of success but didn't get into Smash or get sequels for multiple console gens. I don't think Nintendo buying the rights is a definite indication of a sequel, either. So overall I'm leaning towards it simply being outclassed by other series that have had some combination of bigger fan demand to come to Smash, bigger sales, and/or a longer history/library of games.

Golden Sun, as I have said before, has a window right about now to get a new game. It's the later part of a console's lifecycle with most of the bigger franchises already there and, crucially, Tennis/Golf already done. AFAIK we don't know what Camelot is working on next and as someone else pointed out there was the Camelot website update a while ago, too. So something could be up soon for GS. If not, however, then I think once we get to a new console the chances go down, as likely Nintendo would want new versions of Tennis/Golf for the next console gen. If a new platform is coming soon, then GS's best chance would be for Golf/Tennis to simply be ported to the new hardware so that Camelot can do something else; however, that didn't happen for the Wii U versions on the Switch so that scenario seems unlikely.
As for Isaac in Smash, a successful new game would probably make it a slam dunk in combination with Isaac's consistently high demand and strong ballot performance. Without the new game, Isaac's relying more on the demand and/or the possible existence of a post-1980s retro slot to make it in; still easily possible but his chances depend on how he stacks up against certain others like Waluigi, Dee, etc. (personally, I think he still compares favorably).

Ring Fit seems like a strange case. It did really, really well but you can see circumstances in which it wouldn't get a character or a sequel.
In considering a sequel, remember how successful Wii Fit was and that it didn't continue on the Switch. Almost certainly Nintendo will continue making unique exergaming experiences but we don't know if that will take the form of more projects under the Ring Fit branding or something else entirely new; personally I lean toward the latter, as it feels like Ring Fit's success is predicated more on Nintendo's adeptness at putting attractive spins on the genre than it is the Ring Fit branding specifically. Still, you can't count it out given the success level. I guess a more positive way to put this would be "well, if it doesn't get a sequel then it's probably getting at least a spiritual successor of sorts."
As for the character, it could happen regardless of the sequel. I would put it above the other Switch-only IPs like Astral Chain and ARMS due to the significantly higher level of commercial success. Probably ahead of AW, tossup with GS in terms of likelihood.

 

[dream1ng]

Every major fanbase pick is going to have bandwagoning as some aspect of their popularity. There's no chance that characters like K. Rool or Isaac or Geno would end up the most popular if it was just fans of the original games from the timeframe in which they released pushing for them.

Any character that requires the fanbase to get them included requires a bandwagon.

But if a character like Krystal can maintain some level of popularity this many years after being relevant, if one new appearance can send her popularity skyrocketing back up, which it would, there must be some aspect of the character that people innately like. If Ashley can become the popular one of the WarioWare cast despite not having a role any greater than any other supporting character, that speaks to the appeal of the character. Some characters just naturally aggregate more favor than others.

There are inumerable characters loved by a small number of fans, but who never catch on in the bigger circles. They may not be bandwagon characters, but 99% also aren't going to get in.

Bandwagoning has a stigma attached to it because it can lead to popularity spikes for flavors of the month, but without it, we also wouldn't have received most of the fan favorite characters in the past few games. At that point you're just grappling with the nature of popularity. Popularity influences popularity.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The sad thing with Krystal is if she had any sort of game in the last 15 years, who knows what her popularity could have been? When the most prominence you get is when an N64 beta is discovered? That's pretty telling about how much your parent company has put you on the backburner.

 

[Sucumbio]

I want a new star fox adventures with Krystal.

 

[Laniv]

Krystal getting in as an Assist Trophy was the best thing to happen to her since Brawl. I feel like that's her "Smash 4 Geno Mii Costume" moment; without that, her support would be dead in the water.

 

[dream1ng]

Krystal getting in as an Assist Trophy was the best thing to happen to her since Brawl. I feel like that's her "Smash 4 Geno Mii Costume" moment; without that, her support would be dead in the water.

Well the AT was likely an acknowledgement of her ballot popularity, which was only two years earlier. Getting AT'd right at the beginning didn't help that much, because it's perceived as being taken out of the running. She'd actually probably have more popularity if she wasn't deconfirmed.

Isaac didn't get an AT for 4, and he ended that game as one of the most popular characters. BWD only got a spirit this time and he's right up there now. The longer the character spends active, the more their popularity has the opportunity to snowball. The ranks narrow and they get to stand out.

Look at the most popular third-parties now. Almost all of them weren't deconfirmed until right towards the end, if at all.

It's one thing if the popularity was gone, and the inclusion reignited the fanbase. But Krystal's popularity wasn't gone. It may have been quieter, but it showed up on the ballot. Look at Bomberman. He was gaining a lot of ground again thanks to Super Bomberman R, and then, bam, deconfirmed right at the beginning, barely talked about now or for the rest of Ultimate.

The sad thing with Krystal is if she had any sort of game in the last 15 years, who knows what her popularity could have been? When the most prominent you get is when the Dinosaur Planet beta is discovered? That's pretty telling about how much your parent company has put you on the backburner.

She has the double misfortune of being a character created outside EPD in a series EPD has no idea what to do with. The only thing they're sure of is they don't like using characters they themselves did not create. Even Diddy and Waluigi often seem de-prioritized in games like Kart in favor of mooks.

I guess the silver lining is because Nintendo has no idea what to do with Star Fox, they're going to have to hand the reins to an outside dev eventually, and that dev likely won't have the aversion to non-EPD stuff and will recognize that it makes sense to include a popular character from the series in the game.

 

[blackghost]

what holds astral chain back is that the character himself would be so complex it would likely have to be scrapped.
if youve played astral chain you know why. you are essentially playing deil may cry with a puppet partner. how that translates to smash is a desgin space nightmare. it not like you wold do what xenoblade did and just have the secondary character fight instead and unlike ice climbers the chained partners have an entirely different moveset. and unlike luma these things are huge.

i just think its very unlikely to get in. maybe as an AT.

i laughing at the thought of bayonetta 3 bayo getting in to the next smash. that would be game-shattering. bayo 3 plays like kamiya saw the dante vs bayonetta death battle and said "bet."

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The only way i can see Astral chain working is if each stand was tied to like, B, up-B, down-B and Side-B.

It's been a while since i played the game i forgot what the stands were called lol

 

[Ivander]

She has the double misfortune of being a character created outside EPD in a series EPD has no idea what to do with. The only thing they're sure of is they don't like using characters they themselves did not create. Even Diddy and Waluigi often seem de-prioritized in games like Kart in favor of mooks.

I know people like to bring up Waluigi not being in Mario Kart 7 or Wario Ware in general, but I'd like to point out how Waluigi once was playable in a Party game and Wario was not. That game being Mario Tennis Power Tour for GBA.

what holds astral chain back is that the character himself would be so complex it would likely have to be scrapped.
if youve played astral chain you know why. you are essentially playing deil may cry with a puppet partner. how that translates to smash is a desgin space nightmare. it not like you wold do what xenoblade did and just have the secondary character fight instead and unlike ice climbers the chained partners have an entirely different moveset. and unlike luma these things are huge.

I mean, there is Joker with Arsene in Smash Bros. And you could have their puppet fighters appear and disappear whenever they do their moves, like with Bayonetta's Smash attacks or Zelda's Spirit familiar.

 

[Idon]

what holds astral chain back is that the character himself would be so complex it would likely have to be scrapped.
if youve played astral chain you know why. you are essentially playing deil may cry with a puppet partner. how that translates to smash is a desgin space nightmare. it not like you wold do what xenoblade did and just have the secondary character fight instead and unlike ice climbers the chained partners have an entirely different moveset. and unlike luma these things are huge.

i just think its very unlikely to get in. maybe as an AT.

i laughing at the thought of bayonetta 3 bayo getting in to the next smash. that would be game-shattering. bayo 3 plays like kamiya saw the dante vs bayonetta death battle and said "bet."

This game's not a stranger to simplifying game mechanics for them to fight with a simplified moveset. Joker with Arsene is a really great example of how to show off a duo character without also turning it into some sort of overcomplicated puppet show, in fact their Sync Attacks essentially being what Joker's attacks are now.

Ivander has the right of it. The way the game works is that the legions aren't truly controlled, and when "sent" they've got an AI more rudimentary than Icies's Nanna. Removing that from Smash, they are in essence completely like Smash Joker's Arsene, where they supplement your own moveset rather than being their own fully independent character.

 

[dream1ng]

If Astral Chain gets another game, which I find quite likely, it's at the point where exclusion from Smash would be incredibly conspicuous. The priority to give it a fighter would seemingly be fairly key, and with a mix of Sakurai's ingenuity and the increasing power of Nintendo systems, I suspect they could realize a workable, faithful depiction.

They already got sixteen characters operating simultaneously on the Wii U. That'll be two systems previous by then. Or, if you include even more technologically rudimentary combatants, thirty two "characters" comprised of eight Olimars/Alphs with max Pikmin.

I know people like to bring up Waluigi not being in Mario Kart 7 or Wario Ware in general, but I'd like to point out how Waluigi once was playable in a Party game and Wario was not. That game being Mario Tennis Power Tour for GBA.

But that wasn't an EPD game, that was Camelot. I'm talking about EPD's preference for their own creations. And that example sounds like the parallel, Camelot's preference for their own creation. Also Mario Tennis isn't a party game?

 

[SPEN18]

Also

how about the FE:Engage trailer drop?

 

[Idon]

Also

how about the FE:Engage trailer drop?

I find that bringing up FE in any capacity inevitably falls back to the swordsman arguing.

That said, the FE Engage trailer really doesn't show us much in terms of Alear's capabilities. We get a bigger look at the plot and the nations in it, but I would say that's about it.

 

[Ivander]

Also Mario Tennis isn't a party game?

In a genre sense, it is. Like I know there's Mario Party and whatnot, but like, party game or Sports game is one of the better descriptors to place the Mario multiplayer games under compared to referring to all of the Mario games by the second word with / separating each title. I'd much rather say Party game than going Mario Kart/Tennis/Golf/Party/Strikers/Sluggers/Hoops.

Anyway, it still stands that before Mario Tennis Power Tour, Waluigi was never in a game without Wario, even in other Camelot games. It's still a weird moment where Waluigi was playable in a Kart/Tennis/Golf/Party/Strikers/Sluggers/Hoops party game with Wario not being playable.

 

[Dinoman96]

She has the double misfortune of being a character created outside EPD in a series EPD has no idea what to do with. The only thing they're sure of is they don't like using characters they themselves did not create. Even Diddy and Waluigi often seem de-prioritized in games like Kart in favor of mooks.

I guess the silver lining is because Nintendo has no idea what to do with Star Fox, they're going to have to hand the reins to an outside dev eventually, and that dev likely won't have the aversion to non-EPD stuff and will recognize that it makes sense to include a popular character from the series in the game.

That's not entirely true.

The Star Fox version of Krystal is basically a Nintendo creation just as much as Fox, Falco, Peppy, and Slippy are. Rare themselves were considering on scrapping her from the final version of Star Fox Adventures (just like what happened to the other Dinosaur Planet OCs, like Sabre, Randorn, Kyte, etc), it was Takaya Imamura, the man at Nintendo (until he left in early 2021) who created the main SF cast to begin with, who convinced Rare to keep her...and even provided her final, Vampirella inspired redesign, because he and Miyamoto were looking to add some sex appeal to Star Fox. Yeah.

Star Fox Adventures – 2002 Developer Interview - shmuplations.com

Digital Foundry’s side-by-side comparison of Star Fox Adventures with Forest of Illusion’s recently-dumped Dinosaur Planet N64 build; this build shows the game in a transitional state, with the original protagonist Sabre’s character model and certain voiced sections replaced with those of Fox...

shmuplations.com

—Look forward to the Star Fox game being made with Namco, everyone (laughs). By the by, which of Adventure’s characters were you most attached to?

Imamura: That’d be Krystal. Krystal is a character that had been around since the early versions of Dinosaur Planet, and as that game was making the transition into a Star Fox game, they asked, “so, should we get rid of Krystal?”. but I thought it’d be a waste to scrap her, so when I visited Rare, I drew a ton of pictures…

—I think you made the right call (laughs).
Imamura: There’s an American comic called Vampirella that I’m really into—that character’s a female vampire who wears risque costumes, and so I drew some quick sketches of Krystal with that kind of image and had a lot of discussions with Rare, and so this version of Krystal turned out to be much sexier than the Dinosaur Planet version.

—I see.
Imamura: Miyamoto and I were both aiming to add a little sex appeal, I guess? I think Miyamoto’s always wanted to add that flavor.

—Really?! (laughs)
Imamura: I think somewhere in his mind, Miyamoto’s always pictured Star Fox as somewhat mature, and he’s been saying things like “wouldn’t it be good to add a slightly sexy character?” since the beginning. Likewise, for Starfox 64, although the game certainly appeals to children somewhat, I think Miyamoto felt that leaning fully into that would be going too far, and he wanted to add some more mature touches where possible.

—Katt Monroe from the N64 game did have a flirtatious, cutting personality, but there may have been a slight mismatch between her personality and her appearance (laughs).
Imamura: In that respect, I thought Krystal was a better match.

—Agreed. Of all the female characters that have appeared in Rare’s games thus far, this was the first one I really liked.
Imamura: Right? I think I was able to come up with a design that Japanese people could latch on to. I don’t know whether she’ll continue to appear in future games, but since she was positioned as the heroine of Star Fox Adventures, it was important to design her so that she wouldn’t look out of place next to the established Star Fox cast.

I mean she literally even appeared in Star Fox Command, a game that for all intents and purposes IS an Nintendo EAD developed Star Fox game (despite Q-Games doing the bulk of the game design), as Nintendo and Imamura had full creative control over it, the latter being responsible for the game's (infamous) storylines and endings.

Imamura was also a producer for Star Fox Assault, and it was very likely his idea to make Krystal a full time SF team member.

Star Fox Assault Developer Interview Translated | Krystal Archive

krystalarchive.com

Imamura: This time around, the female character, Krystal, is joining the fight for the first time, and I’m personally excited about this aspect of the game. After all, if it’s a girl’s voice that’s calling for help or assistance in battle, I’m definitely going to rush to save her! (Laughs).

He even commemorated Star Fox Adventures' 20th anniversary this year with this doodle of Krystal:

人生はアドベンチャー。 pic.twitter.com/zQ1JQuoUN6

— 今村孝矢 / Takaya Imamura (@ima_1966) September 22, 2022

 

[fogbadge]

Also

how about the FE:Engage trailer drop?

characters don't look engaging funnily enough

 

[Chuderz]

Hmmmmm lots of interesting discussions here. Personally I think the challenge of implementing Astral Chain is worth it and my guess is Sakurai would at least try to do it justice and see the challenge as exciting and thus worth tackling seriously.

I actually started the game a couple months ago but I haven't finished it yet but yeah it'd be quite the undertaking to get it into Smash properly the way Sakurai would want it. Maybe for each of Officer Howard's attacks there would be a second input? Kind of like Link/Young-Link's Side-Smash and certain Side-Tilts like Snake's, Bayonetta's and Plant's, hell Meta Knight has a second and third input for his Side-Tilt. Maybe have this be implemented throughout Officer Howard's entire moveset? Hell you might be able to utilize Bayonetta's hold input gimmick (for her purple bullet gun thing after basically all of her attacks) sometimes to give the moveset a little bit of complexity here and there. These special post-attack inputs could be exclusively tied to your Legion I feel like allowing them to essentially extend your combos some. Maybe even make these inputs rhythmic? I know it's not a rhythm game but it's just a thought I'm just shooting ideas out here.

Just some thoughts on how to approach it. I'm not sure what I'd make each attack and I wouldn't even want to think about it until I actually beat the game. Great game btw. Got it on a Nintendo "sale" hahaha. I love my digital games on the Switch tho so yeah I guess Nintendo wins. Extremely refreshing take on the genre and Nintendo would be dumb not to pursue it. Great world that could easily have its lore expanded upon.

 

[Sucumbio]

Spoiler: Language!

this dude is gonna be so fucking broken in Smash 6 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ https://t.co/5Z6KT92Ik4

— Zomba (@ZombaSalvatore) November 16, 2022

Move over ROB!

 

[osby]

Hmmmmm lots of interesting discussions here. Personally I think the challenge of implementing Astral Chain is worth it and my guess is Sakurai would at least try to do it justice and see the challenge as exciting and thus worth tackling seriously.

I actually started the game a couple months ago but I haven't finished it yet but yeah it'd be quite the undertaking to get it into Smash properly the way Sakurai would want it. Maybe for each of Officer Howard's attacks there would be a second input? Kind of like Link/Young-Link's Side-Smash and certain Side-Tilts like Snake's, Bayonetta's and Plant's, hell Meta Knight has a second and third input for his Side-Tilt. Maybe have this be implemented throughout Officer Howard's entire moveset? Hell you might be able to utilize Bayonetta's hold input gimmick (for her purple bullet gun thing after basically all of her attacks) sometimes to give the moveset a little bit of complexity here and there. These special post-attack inputs could be exclusively tied to your Legion I feel like allowing them to essentially extend your combos some. Maybe even make these inputs rhythmic? I know it's not a rhythm game but it's just a thought I'm just shooting ideas out here.

Just some thoughts on how to approach it. I'm not sure what I'd make each attack and I wouldn't even want to think about it until I actually beat the game. Great game btw. Got it on a Nintendo "sale" hahaha. I love my digital games on the Switch tho so yeah I guess Nintendo wins. Extremely refreshing take on the genre and Nintendo would be dumb not to pursue it. Great world that could easily have its lore expanded upon.

If we're taking inspiration from Bayonetta 3, Officer Howard could use their neutral special to summon their Legion and perform a single attack. However, if they do hold the input, directional and A-button commands would make the Legion move and attack, while they stay stationary.

Of course, you'd need to implement a meter/time limit for this to not lead to the main fighter stand back and let the Legion do all the fighting.

 

[Aligo]

If we're taking inspiration from Bayonetta 3, Officer Howard could use their neutral special to summon their Legion and perform a single attack. However, if they do hold the input, directional and A-button commands would make the Legion move and attack, while they stay stationary.

Of course, you'd need to implement a meter/time limit for this to not lead to the main fighter stand back and let the Legion do all the fighting.

That could work, as such a system was already used in astral chain, where meter is gained by attacking or when not using the legion, and lost when the legion is active or getting hit. The legion/s could work like a metered luma, where they attack alongside the player and can be displaced relative to the character via neutral special.

 

[Garteam]

The only thing that separates a "bandwagon" character from a character that is "popular with the fans" is how much the person using these terms personally likes the character. Regardless of what you personally think of Isaac, Geno, Krystal, Ashley, etc., people rally behind them because they genuinely like them as characters. Writing them off as a "bandwagon" feels like little more than a method to devalue their popularity without actually providing an argument.

In terms of Officer Howard, I think they're an interesting choice worth keeping an eye on, but I'd feel a bit more comfortable supporting their inclusion if we had confirmation of an Astral Chain 2. We know Nintendo liked the IP enough to purchase the rights from Platinum Games, but what they plan to do with these rights is still up in the air. If they release more entries in the series, then I think Officer Howard is a lock. If they don't release more entries, then I think Officer Howard still has a solid chance but will have some tougher competition.

 

[Chuderz]

If we're taking inspiration from Bayonetta 3, Officer Howard could use their neutral special to summon their Legion and perform a single attack. However, if they do hold the input, directional and A-button commands would make the Legion move and attack, while they stay stationary.

Of course, you'd need to implement a meter/time limit for this to not lead to the main fighter stand back and let the Legion do all the fighting.

Yeah absolutely that's another way to go about it. So it's not impossible. It would definitely take a lot of brainstorming and be relatively difficult compared to a more basic character like Octoling for example but they could definitely be implemented into Smash. I actually think the main concern would be all the extra animation they'd have to do with both Officer Howard and the Legion. I think I remember Sakurai saying implementing Joker was almost like doing 2 characters because of all the extra work that had to go into Arsene's animations. On top of all this Officer Howard would also require male/female alts but considering Robin/Corrin/Byleth I don't think that'd be anything as major as the Legion would be.

 

[Dinoman96]

The only thing that separates a "bandwagon" character from a character that is "popular with the fans" is how much the person using these terms personally likes the character. Regardless of what you personally think of Isaac, Geno, Krystal, Ashley, etc., people rally behind them because they genuinely like them as characters. Writing them off as a "bandwagon" feels like little more than a method to devalue their popularity without actually providing an argument.

I guess what I mean by "bandwagon" is that people aren't really gonna be vocally pushing for a character unless they have an actual strong reason to, like appearing in recent big new games, having some company spokesperson (or Sakurai himself) saying "yeah it'd be cool", or some faulty insider saying it's a sure thing. These are things to have applied to candidates, even the ones that actually made it in, like Ashley, Skull Kid, Geno, Banjo, Krystal, Palutena, etc.

I said this before but that's what I find impressive about King K. Rool in hindsight, he literally didn't have any of that whatsoever. All he had was the size and shear willpower of his fanbase to bring him back into the spotlight.

 

[Aligo]

Another thing to consider is that some of the legions would be very hard to balance if they were to be used. The Axe and arrow legions in particular come to mind.

Krool is a good example of a character brought in due to fan demand. DK is an inactive series as if this console generation, and Krool himself last appeared long before that time.

 

[silenthunder]

I guess what I mean by "bandwagon" is that people aren't really gonna be vocally pushing for a character unless they have an actual strong reason to, like appearing in recent big new games, having some company spokesperson (or Sakurai himself) saying "yeah it'd be cool", or some faulty insider saying it's a sure thing. These are things to have applied to candidates, even the ones that actually made it in, like Ashley, Skull Kid, Geno, Banjo, Krystal, Palutena, etc.

I said this before but that's what I find impressive about King K. Rool in hindsight, he literally didn't have any of that whatsoever. All he had was the size and shear willpower of his fanbase to bring him back into the spotlight.

What's wrong with Nostalgia picks. I voted for characters from my earliest memories from Nintendo because those are some of my favorite games. I didn't even communicate with anybody with the same interests, so it can't be called bandwagoning but even if I did what's wrong with that?

 

[osby]

Another thing to consider is that some of the legions would be very hard to balance if they were to be used. The Axe and arrow legions in particular come to mind.

That's why they'd likely just pick one Legion and stick with it, like how Bayonetta only summons Madama Butterfly in her moveset or Joker doesn't stray away from Arsene.

 

[Gengar84]

What's wrong with Nostalgia picks. I voted for characters from my earliest memories from Nintendo because those are some of my favorite games. I didn't even communicate with anybody with the same interests, so it can't be called bandwagoning but even if I did what's wrong with that?

I totally agree. The majority of my most wanted characters are from the NES or SNES eras. I voted for K. Rool in the Smash Ballot too. Not that I dislike newer characters (and I still want plenty of those) but I just have more nostalgia for the games and characters I loved since I was a kid.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Honestly I think most moveset concerns are more or less bunk in general. Sakurai has shown he is willing to make compromises and that he can make a moveset out of anything. The fact Piranha Plant is in Smash alone should show that this man and his team have the creativity to make anything work. For characters like Joker or Aegis, he was willing to make compromises in their movesets to make them work. Hardware concerns likely won't be as much of a factor given that the next Smash is almost certainly going to be on stronger hardware.

Officer Howard I know some people were bringing up moveset concerns, but honestly its easy to just make a compromise with their moveset. Maybe they summon the legion for specific attacks, sort of like how Bayonetta does with Madama Butterfly or Zelda has her Phantom. If they want to make Officer Howard work, I genuinely do not see an obstacle in the moveset department. You could make the moveset as complex or simplistic in terms of the Legion implementation as you see fit, it isn't a massive obstacle at the end of the day. Smash Ultimate has proven that Sakurai and his team can make huge leaps in terms of making characters work. They had to do so much work to get Steve to work for example, reworking all the stages so block placement would not be an issue. If Nintendo wants to push Astral Chain in Smash, they would be able to.

Now, I think the question for Officer Howard is just whether Nintendo pushes it in the future. My gut says they will. For a new IP it did pretty well, well enough for Nintendo to purchase the rights fully from Platinum. But Astral Chain offers a lot to Nintendo's catalog. Outside of Bayonetta (which they do not own), they do not have a game like Astral Chain in Nintendo's repertoire. Having a diverse portfolio with successful games like Astral Chain matters. Part of the reason we got games like Nier Automata on the switch was the success of Astral Chain. I think that should the IP continue, it is close to a lock for the next Smash. With the evidence we have, I think it is extremely likely Astral Chain gets a sequel in the next few years.
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Also, in terms of SCCC Part 2, expect it to be out article wise in December. I left the poll still running just because of the suggestion box. With Gen 9 literally right around the corner, I want to give people who might have been waiting to suggest or think of characters from that a chance to voice their thoughts on the reps for it. Id expect the article in Early or Mid December.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I guess what I mean by "bandwagon" is that people aren't really gonna be vocally pushing for a character unless they have an actual strong reason to, like appearing in recent big new games, having some company spokesperson (or Sakurai himself) saying "yeah it'd be cool", or some faulty insider saying it's a sure thing. These are things to have applied to candidates, even the ones that actually made it in, like Ashley, Skull Kid, Geno, Banjo, Krystal, Palutena, etc.

I said this before but that's what I find impressive about King K. Rool in hindsight, he literally didn't have any of that whatsoever. All he had was the size and shear willpower of his fanbase to bring him back into the spotlight.

Though I do see what you're saying, I just want to say that fans have legitimately wanted Banjo in Smash for a long time. It's just that it didn't seem possible at first since he was bought by Microsoft years ago.