Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Opossum]

I feel like they should have used a shield.

Pretty sure that's what the titular "Fire emblem" is.

In fairness the Fire Emblem is only a shield in the games in the greater Archanea timeline. In other timelines it's other things.

The use of the Falchion as the series emblem specifically goes back to FE1, down to the way it's positioned.

 

[Ivander]

Around the eve of TGAs 2019, someone pointed out that Nintendo had copystriked a video showing off a KOS-MOS mod for Smash Bros. This led to the natural conclusions you'd expect, but what was eventually pointed out was that, inexplicably, the game it was said to infringe upon in the claim was Mario Kart Tour. To this day, no one quite knows just what the hell happened, though at this point I think it's generally agreed that it was just some dingus who reported the vid on purpose to rile ppl up.

It's one of those Smash spec moments that just live rent-free in my head. I was still a lurker on SB at the time, and I remember checking the spec thread every day and seeing the madness unfold. Good times. Kinda. Sorta.

I remember that moment, although I had no idea the copyright infringement was regarding Mario Kart Tour. Cause I clearly remember people talking about the KOS-MOS video being copyright struck, as well as the one fanmade remix of a song getting copyright struck as well that led to speculation.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Hi, new guy here!
Ever since Sakurai's latest comments and the Studio S announcement thing, I've been wondering what form will Smash 6 take.
The biggest question is of course, will everyone be back? And I'd say... It depends.

If they're making a standard sequel, there's pretty much no way they bring back every single character.
But if they're making something that's like... Smash as a platform? I know that people hate that term, as it's usually associated with gacha, microtransactions and other consumer-unfriendly stuff. But Ultimate did already kinda start to veer in that direction with all the DLC, and ultimately what fans want from Smash is, in my opinion, iteration and refinement. Sure a new game in the series will shake up the gameplay a little (or a lot, but that's besides the point) and introduce some kind of gimmick, but what people most care about is getting new toys to play with. The marketing with its strong focus on all the crazy trailers basically acknowledges It.
And so I think, if the next Smash is going to be a sort of "living" game that gets new content at a pretty constant pace, there's no way they don't eventually bring every character back. After all, each fighter has a pretty big fan base just by virtue of having been playable for so long, and I think what Nintendo truly learned from the Ballot is that people love their veterans. Like, sometimes people dismiss characters like Lucas or Roy as easy cuts, but like... They've been part of this series for a very, very long time. There's gotta be some value in that, even if they're not exactly that relevant outside of Smash.

So yeah, that's more or less what I think they're going to do...
I'm not a fan of the fabled reboot option, because what's the point in giving new movesets to old characters? We already get new movesets, by virtue of the new characters (decloning some older fighters is fair game though). And what would you even do that different with, like, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu or Captain Falcon anyways? Smaller adjustements to select characters have always happened anyways. See Bowser and Pit from Brawl to Smash 4, for example.

Anyways, this is just my two cents and probably what I'd personally like to see the most...

 

[DarthEnderX]

The Sword of Light is also what 11 is using when he fights. This is honestly a new fact for me because I thought this whole time it was just a random design choice.

All of the Smash Heroes are using the "ultimate" sword and shield from their respective games.
3: Sword of Kings/Hero's Shield
4. Zenithian Sword/Shield
8. Dragovian Sword/Shield
11. Sword of Light/Erdwin's Shield

Ever since Sakurai's latest comments and the Studio S announcement thing, I've been wondering what form will Smash 6 take.

Smash Ultimate Deluxe.

 

[Kirbeh]

Hi, new guy here!
Ever since Sakurai's latest comments and the Studio S announcement thing, I've been wondering what form will Smash 6 take.
The biggest question is of course, will everyone be back? And I'd say... It depends.

If they're making a standard sequel, there's pretty much no way they bring back every single character.
But if they're making something that's like... Smash as a platform? I know that people hate that term, as it's usually associated with gacha, microtransactions and other consumer-unfriendly stuff. But Ultimate did already kinda start to veer in that direction with all the DLC, and ultimately what fans want from Smash is, in my opinion, iteration and refinement. Sure a new game in the series will shake up the gameplay a little (or a lot, but that's besides the point) and introduce some kind of gimmick, but what people most care about is getting new toys to play with. The marketing with its strong focus on all the crazy trailers basically acknowledges It.
And so I think, if the next Smash is going to be a sort of "living" game that gets new content at a pretty constant pace, there's no way they don't eventually bring every character back. After all, each fighter has a pretty big fan base just by virtue of having been playable for so long, and I think what Nintendo truly learned from the Ballot is that people love their veterans. Like, sometimes people dismiss characters like Lucas or Roy as easy cuts, but like... They've been part of this series for a very, very long time. There's gotta be some value in that, even if they're not exactly that relevant outside of Smash.

So yeah, that's more or less what I think they're going to do...
I'm not a fan of the fabled reboot option, because what's the point in giving new movesets to old characters? We already get new movesets, by virtue of the new characters (decloning some older fighters is fair game though). And what would you even do that different with, like, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu or Captain Falcon anyways? Smaller adjustements to select characters have always happened anyways. See Bowser and Pit from Brawl to Smash 4, for example.

Anyways, this is just my two cents and probably what I'd personally like to see the most...

I honestly wouldn't mind a "games as a service" version of Smash so long as still launches with a substantial amount of content (which I'm sure it would,) and doesn't adopt a bunch of predatory practices. A free to play version handled in a similar vein to DOA5 or the more recent Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising would be okay imo.

As for revising old movesets. "What's the point in giving new movesets to old characters?

To keep things fresh? To continue to iterate and make improvements/adjustments? This sentiment has never made much sense to me tbh. Not even a more rigidly designed character like Ryu has remained the same from SFII up until now in SF6.

This is understandably more of a preference as I'm sure plenty of people are satisfied with the current movesets, but at the same time, just as many feel like certain characters; Bowser, Samus, Ganondorf, Sonic, etc. could use some overhauls or adjustments. How much or how little will also vary depending on who you ask but I feel like a lot of people often misrepresent or are very dismissive of requests for adjusting veterans.

 

[Will]

Hi, new guy here!

I can tell you’re a lurker by that username alone

 

[Wonder Smash]

Do you happen to know when they started using the gear in the logo? Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but the JP boxart and title screens don't seem to have it.

I don't know exactly when they started using it but there's this:

It may be a reoccurring symbol for the series in general.

 

[Kirbeh]

I don't know when they started using it but there's this:

View attachment 382454

As you can see, this was also used for Rockman Dash (Mega Man Legends), so it seems like a general symbol for the series as a whole.

Okay so I was looking in the wrong places then. It's more of a menu thing then. As far as actual game logos go it seems to strictly be JP Legends (which I did look at, don't know how I missed the gear on the A) and... What game is the second logo from if you don't mind me asking?

 

[BritishGuy54]

If they're making a standard sequel, there's pretty much no way they bring back every single character.

Like, sometimes people dismiss characters like Lucas or Roy as easy cuts, but like... They've been part of this series for a very, very long time. There's gotta be some value in that, even if they're not exactly that relevant outside of Smash.

I'm not a fan of the fabled reboot option, because what's the point in giving new movesets to old characters?

I see just a standard sequel happening. I don’t think the next needs to one-up Ultimate. I think it’s okay if the next game moves on from ‘Everyone is Here’, and tries to be its own game.

We’ll see many cuts (even fan-favourites), but not a scorched earth approach that would drop roster numbers in the Melee-Brawl territory. I expect a roster size akin to Smash 4.

Lucas and Roy have been cut before. It made sense to bring them back in 4’s DLC, but with a roster size as big as Ultimate’s, and a future with returning characters and newcomers, it means a lot of characters will be lost in the shuffle.

All I can say is that a standard sequel will feel like whiplash for a lot of people, as characters are cut, even fan-favourites and good Ballot performers. I don’t think even the Original 12 will come back in full.

It also just has to do with how Nintendo has changed, and their core franchises have too, especially their secondary franchises.

I don’t think we will get full reworks. Maybe some minor touches are more expected, like revamping some, not all of Sonic’s moveset, or swapping out some abilities for certain characters.

 

[Speed Weed]

because what's the point in giving new movesets to old characters? We already get new movesets, by virtue of the new characters (decloning some older fighters is fair game though).

As someone who tends to tap out of moveset discussion (yes I am a filthy roster starer), I think it really just comes down to the fact that people want to see their favorite characters represented in more accurate, or at the very least more interesting, ways. At the end of the day, a big part of Smash's appeal is the fanservice, and let's face it - several characters are represented in pretty weird, outdated, or generally kind of boring manners. Characters aren't just functions, and I think it's entirely natural for fans of these characters to be dissatisfied with how they're portrayed.

Another factor that ties into this is competitive viability - for example, the biggest reason many people call for Little Mac to be reworked is because he is by overwhelming consensus considered one of the absolute worst characters in the entire game, and many of the issues there come down to how he is fundamentally designed, and when you consider that perspective, I think it's fair for fans of the character to want him to be reworked and rebalanced so that he's more fun to play both as and against. Again, characters aren't just movesets, they're, y'know, characters.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Okay so I was looking in the wrong places then. It's more of a menu thing then. As far as actual game logos go it seems to strictly be JP Legends (which I did look at, don't know how I missed the gear on the A) and... What game is the second logo from if you don't mind me asking?

I honestly don't know. However, I also found this:

A gear was used in the logo of this game and this came out in 1997.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I remember that moment, although I had no idea the copyright infringement was regarding Mario Kart Tour. Cause I clearly remember people talking about the KOS-MOS video being copyright struck, as well as the one fanmade remix of a song getting copyright struck as well that led to speculation.

Dang, if they gave a copyright strike to a fanmade Smash remix of Yakko's World from Animaniacs, people will go bananas for it.

 

[Kirbeh]

I honestly don't know. However, I also found this:

View attachment 382457

A gear was used in the logo of this game and this came out in 1997.

That's a tire/wheel. It's a racing game.

Overall, the gear is fine but after actually looking into it, I'm less convinced on its prevalence as MM iconography.

 

[Jave]

Starting this year, we live in a world where Steamboat Willie could be added to Smash and nobody could complain about it.

 

[Geno Boost]

Starting this year, we live in a world where Steamboat Willie could be added to Smash and nobody could complain about it.

The closest thing thing we could get is timeless river stage from kingdom hearts

 

[Louie G.]

re: Changing the movesets of existing characters

I feel like we're at the point where we may see more significant changes made to veterans in an effort to keep the series fresh, and because presumably there will be more time to go back and work on veterans if the roster is smaller. Particularly in the situation Scrimblo suggests where we get sort of a drip feed of returning fighters, why not spend the extra time to iterate on them and make them feel new? Otherwise the incentive to pop Smash in and play them is considerably lower than it could be. Not that I think that's gonna happen, at least not quite in that way, but just saying.

Still, I do think the community sometimes pushes for more drastic changes than necessary. Everyone is due for some changes or another just to maintain balance and switch things up, but the core essence of many of these characters need not be tampered with. I think the examples given, Bowser and Pit, are good reference points for how some characters can be updated to please new fans without alienating old ones. Even some characters who are often suggested to receive heavy changes, like Sonic or Samus, feel like they can be solved with a pretty moderate amount. I feel like we're probably all on the same page but it was phrased in a bit of a disagreeable way.

re: Character vs Function

So I wanna say that I agree, loyalty to a character is more important than forcing them into or keeping them boxed within a function. That said, I feel like some characters have been valuable tools to fulfill an important gameplay role that I don't see changing. Mario and Kirby, for example, have plenty of potential to be flashy characters with insane movement options or exploits but ultimately need to stay reeled in to be the reliable pick up and play guys. It might be more exciting for a diehard Mario fan to see him doing all sorts of wild Mario 64 hops and slides, but a compromise is important. And a somewhat unorthodox take can be enjoyable sometimes, I'm a pretty staunch defender of how wacky Luigi is in Smash and I mean... I'm a huge fan of Luigi, it's in the name.

This is splitting hairs a little bit, but I just wanted to emphasize my stance of faithfulness being important but a dizzying amount of references or sterilizing characterization can sometimes get in the way of deliberate game design or creativity. There are definitely characters I want adjusted but many design choices I've seen questioned that I think were made for good reason.

 

[Speed Weed]

re: Character vs Function

So I wanna say that I agree, loyalty to a character is more important than forcing them into or keeping them boxed within a function. That said, I feel like some characters have been valuable tools to fulfill an important gameplay role that I don't see changing. Mario and Kirby, for example, have plenty of potential to be flashy characters with insane movement options or exploits but ultimately need to stay reeled in to be the reliable pick up and play guys. It might be more exciting for a diehard Mario fan to see him doing all sorts of wild Mario 64 hops and slides, but a compromise is important. And a somewhat unorthodox take can be enjoyable sometimes, I'm a pretty staunch defender of how wacky Luigi is in Smash and I mean... I'm a huge fan of Luigi, it's in the name.

This is splitting hairs a little bit, but I just wanted to emphasize my stance of faithfulness being important but a dizzying amount of references or sterilizing characterization can sometimes get in the way of deliberate game design or creativity. There are definitely characters I want adjusted but many design choices I've seen questioned that I think were made for good reason.

Yeah, I agree with all this.......as much as character faithfulness is important, it's even moreso to have an actually functional fighting game on our hands. Otherwise we get incredibly messy movesets that cross over into Two Flickies territory.

It should be noted that my previous post wasn't a sort of "we should go back and change every character whose moveset could be deemed imperfect or even slightly accurate" - again, I have no real horse in this race - I just wanted to provide examples to show that yes, in some cases, there is, indeed, good reason to go back to old characters' movesets, up to and including function-related matters. All of these statements can coexist. Should have explained myself better

 

[Wonder Smash]

That's a tire/wheel. It's a racing game.

Overall, the gear is fine but after actually looking into it, I'm less convinced on its prevalence as MM iconography.

I don't see why. There's also this:

This is from Rockman Battle & Fighters and that's undeniably a gear in the logo.

Also, that other logo you asked me about came from Rockman: The Power Battle.

 

[dream1ng]

Hi, new guy here!
Ever since Sakurai's latest comments and the Studio S announcement thing, I've been wondering what form will Smash 6 take.
The biggest question is of course, will everyone be back? And I'd say... It depends.

If they're making a standard sequel, there's pretty much no way they bring back every single character.
But if they're making something that's like... Smash as a platform? I know that people hate that term, as it's usually associated with gacha, microtransactions and other consumer-unfriendly stuff. But Ultimate did already kinda start to veer in that direction with all the DLC, and ultimately what fans want from Smash is, in my opinion, iteration and refinement. Sure a new game in the series will shake up the gameplay a little (or a lot, but that's besides the point) and introduce some kind of gimmick, but what people most care about is getting new toys to play with. The marketing with its strong focus on all the crazy trailers basically acknowledges It.
And so I think, if the next Smash is going to be a sort of "living" game that gets new content at a pretty constant pace, there's no way they don't eventually bring every character back. After all, each fighter has a pretty big fan base just by virtue of having been playable for so long, and I think what Nintendo truly learned from the Ballot is that people love their veterans. Like, sometimes people dismiss characters like Lucas or Roy as easy cuts, but like... They've been part of this series for a very, very long time. There's gotta be some value in that, even if they're not exactly that relevant outside of Smash.

So yeah, that's more or less what I think they're going to do...
I'm not a fan of the fabled reboot option, because what's the point in giving new movesets to old characters? We already get new movesets, by virtue of the new characters (decloning some older fighters is fair game though). And what would you even do that different with, like, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu or Captain Falcon anyways? Smaller adjustements to select characters have always happened anyways. See Bowser and Pit from Brawl to Smash 4, for example.

Anyways, this is just my two cents and probably what I'd personally like to see the most...

But how do you envision that functioning? I agree Smash as a platform will probably exist, and that's how they'll get around a smaller initial roster. And that plenty of vets will be re-added through the subsequent DLC.

But bringing back every character still doesn't seem feasible unless they literally take the existing roster, they don't start over, but base roster appears as if they have, because they've yanked the majority of existing characters out to be re-added as DLC. Like, they're all already finished, and apart from some tweaks, maybe new costumes/moves, they're just being held off. Some for years. That seems kind of shady, given everything not in base is presumably going to be individually monetized. That's just breaking Ultimate down to sell in highly marked up parts.

Because if they do work their way back up again, there's no way to reach the count of having every existing character, plus all the newcomers. That's over a hundred. That's not feasible unless they just keep using Ultimate like they did 4. Even with Smash as a GaaS.

It's very different to have every character in the series be present by re-adding a grand total of seven vets, three of whom are derivative and one who is already functional in the data (ICs) than literally re-adding the entire 89-character roster.

I think even with Smash as a platform, you'll still not see many characters return, even in the finished product. Especially in base, but I also think many will gradually be re-added, because cost-wise, work-wise, schedule-wise and popularity-wise, that makes sense. But I think there's no way they do bring every character back unless we just build off Ultimate and manage to retain all licensing.

 

[Sucumbio]

I had used to think it was a reference to his metal blade but it's definitely a gear so I dunno lol

 

[Kirbeh]

I don't see why. There's also this:

View attachment 382468

This is from Rockman Battle & Fighters and that's undeniably a gear in the logo.

Also, that other logo you asked me about came from Rockman: The Power Battle.

Just to clarify, it's not so much that I think it doesn't fit, it clearly has its use in a few logos and menu designs, plus the overarching fact that it's a series about robots. It's moreso that it's not nearly as prevalent as I was expecting it to be.

Outside of Legends, the only other titles I could find/you presented that prominently feature gears are a handful of spin offs from the classic era. None of the main titles in classic, X, Battle Network, etc. seem to make use of gears.

It's still a fitting, if less obvious choice even looking at the JP side of things (which would hold more weight in my eyes, but it still only shows up every so often.)

In the absence of better alternatives (outside of maybe the Mets), plus the happy coincidence of Mega Man 11 being all about the gear system being a prominent gameplay feature, I've mostly come around to the gear.

As I said originally, it's incredibly nit picky on my part, I just like it when the series symbol is something immediately recognizable as being that particular series. Like, if Mega Man were only just now joining Smash and you showed me a gear and told me to guess what series it was, I might say Mega Man but I'd probably have multiple guesses.

 

[Garteam]

Hi, new guy here!
Ever since Sakurai's latest comments and the Studio S announcement thing, I've been wondering what form will Smash 6 take.
The biggest question is of course, will everyone be back? And I'd say... It depends.

If they're making a standard sequel, there's pretty much no way they bring back every single character.
But if they're making something that's like... Smash as a platform? I know that people hate that term, as it's usually associated with gacha, microtransactions and other consumer-unfriendly stuff. But Ultimate did already kinda start to veer in that direction with all the DLC, and ultimately what fans want from Smash is, in my opinion, iteration and refinement. Sure a new game in the series will shake up the gameplay a little (or a lot, but that's besides the point) and introduce some kind of gimmick, but what people most care about is getting new toys to play with. The marketing with its strong focus on all the crazy trailers basically acknowledges It.
And so I think, if the next Smash is going to be a sort of "living" game that gets new content at a pretty constant pace, there's no way they don't eventually bring every character back. After all, each fighter has a pretty big fan base just by virtue of having been playable for so long, and I think what Nintendo truly learned from the Ballot is that people love their veterans. Like, sometimes people dismiss characters like Lucas or Roy as easy cuts, but like... They've been part of this series for a very, very long time. There's gotta be some value in that, even if they're not exactly that relevant outside of Smash.

So yeah, that's more or less what I think they're going to do...
I'm not a fan of the fabled reboot option, because what's the point in giving new movesets to old characters? We already get new movesets, by virtue of the new characters (decloning some older fighters is fair game though). And what would you even do that different with, like, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu or Captain Falcon anyways? Smaller adjustements to select characters have always happened anyways. See Bowser and Pit from Brawl to Smash 4, for example.

Anyways, this is just my two cents and probably what I'd personally like to see the most...

Welcome to the boards!

I definitely think you're on to something with the next Smash having extensive post-game support to ensure that as many popular veterans who didn't make the initial roster are in the game while also providing newcomers that can only really be added as DLC. However, part of me wonders if we'll even get a Smash 6 in the new future, with Studio S (assuming this is the Smash studio) instead developing more content for Ultimate.

Nintendo has said that they want to buck the trend of a standard console lifespan with the Switch and consoles are generally becoming more and more iterative as time goes on, with the PS5 and Xbox Series essentially being a souped-up PS4 and Xbox One respectively. Assuming the next Nintendo console is backwards compatible with the Switch, adding onto Ultimate could cut out the middle man of needing to recreate previous content and could instead allow Studio S to focus solely on continuing to build Ultimate up with newcomers.

The only awkward part would be having to work around content in Ultimate (namely candidates for fighters that are presently in the game in non-playable roles, like Waluigi) but even that's pretty easy to adjust. and demonstrate that Sakurai will just use alternative art for characters that already have spirits and there's already an assist trophy toggle that disables assist trophies on certain stages, so any assist trophies could just be turned off if their playable version is playable.

 

[dream1ng]

Starting this year, we live in a world where Steamboat Willie could be added to Smash and nobody could complain about it.

While Smash isn't happening, the fact that he can just appear now in any given game as some costume or character without legal repercussion or Disney being on board is wild.

Like, this version of Mickey could be a character in Mortal Kombat now. They could add him to Multiversus.

Though I'd imagine any company using him, especially in any controversial ways, is probably aware that they're basically closing the door on working with Disney in the foreseeable future.

This is really just the beginning, though. What is DC going to do when in a decade-ish, their four most valuable characters (Superman, Batman, Joker, Wonder Woman) all become public domain for people to legally do whatever they want with?

 

[Garteam]

This is really just the beginning, though. What is DC going to do when in a decade-ish, their four most valuable characters (Superman, Batman, Joker, Wonder Woman) all become public domain for people to legally do whatever they want with?

Keep in mind that copyright protects works and the characters contained within, rather than all aspects of characters that debuted within a work but went on to appear in and be developed in derivative works. This effectively means only the aspects of the character that are established in that original work are public domain. Using aspects of the character that are established in works still protected by copyright still qualifies as copyright infringement. That's why everyone is noting that it's Steamboat Willie's version of Mickey Mouse that is public domain, not the entirety of Mickey. This is going to protect the substance of a lot of characters, as many of their defining characteristics weren't introduced until later works. For example, even when Superman becomes public domain, it's still going to take about a decade before depicting Superman flying becomes public domain because he didn't obtain this power until the Fleisher cartoons of the 1940s decided animating massive leaps would be infeasible. This is what Disney is relying on to substantially protect Mickey and my guess is Warner Bros. will do the same once DC's heroes start hitting the public domain.

These companies will also still have the trademark over these characters, which will prevent people from selling products attached to the brand of a public domain character. Trademarks, IIRC, are indefinite across basically every IP jurisdiction globally. This will likely be the main tool used to control marketplaces.

 

[SPEN18]

Sometimes I feel Smash fans act as if every single player buys every single DLC character and would continue to do so indefinitely...

Look, it's one thing to love DLC and the nature of content it enables, but you gotta admit it's terrible value relative to how much you get for your money in the base game, and generally diminishing returns for the company the longer it goes. Those who still can't fathom how Nintendo could possibly decide against doing a third Fighter Pass may need to wake up.
Not to mention how a potential evergreen system-seller like Smash desperately needs to be up-to-date mechanically and graphically every gen. Backwards compatibility of the Wii and Wii U did not render Brawl or Smash 4 unnecessary.
Continued DLC or DLC-styled content packs are simply not sustainable as the primary or premier source of new content for Smash. It's not the absolute win-win for player and developer that some make it out to be. Besides, even if I'm totally off and Smash could make it work for another whole gen somehow, we'll simply wind up in the same situation again, only worse and worse as far as the possibility of porting everything over and retaining the roster goes.

I have literally never seen a fanbase with so much straight-up animosity towards the very idea of a brand-new entry in their series. At a certain point, it's too much in my opinion. Regardless of your stance on particular characters, this overarching "no cuts, no buts" attitude is just not the hill I'm gonna die on when it comes to the longterm well-being of our beloved franchise.

 

[dream1ng]

Welcome to the boards!

I definitely think you're on to something with the next Smash having extensive post-game support to ensure that as many popular veterans who didn't make the initial roster are in the game while also providing newcomers that can only really be added as DLC. However, part of me wonders if we'll even get a Smash 6 in the new future, with Studio S (assuming this is the Smash studio) instead developing more content for Ultimate.

Nintendo has said that they want to buck the trend of a standard console lifespan with the Switch and consoles are generally becoming more and more iterative as time goes on, with the PS5 and Xbox Series essentially being a souped-up PS4 and Xbox One respectively. Assuming the next Nintendo console is backwards compatible with the Switch, adding onto Ultimate could cut out the middle man of needing to recreate previous content and could instead allow Studio S to focus solely on continuing to build Ultimate up with newcomers.

The only awkward part would be having to work around content in Ultimate (namely candidates for fighters that are presently in the game in non-playable roles, like Waluigi) but even that's pretty easy to adjust. and demonstrate that Sakurai will just use alternative art for characters that already have spirits and there's already an assist trophy toggle that disables assist trophies on certain stages, so any assist trophies could just be turned off if their playable version is playable.

The problem with that is you're catering to the market of a game that won't be on the current console and hasn't received DLC in years. Nintendo's goal isn't to build up one Smash with as much content as possible, that's the fanbase's want. Their goal is to make money. Even with the people who still play Ultimate, and even with bc, releasing a game on the next console is going to be a lot more lucrative, whether that's a port or a sequel. Even with Ultimate's numbers.

Of course Nintendo says a lot of things while the Switch is the current console they're selling and the successor isn't revealed yet. Nintendo also said the DS was going to be a third pillar and that Switch wasn't replacing Wii U and 3DS. Let's see how things go once they're actually marketing what will be the console they intend to keep on the market for seven or eight years and phasing the Switch out. It already seems to have entered the port/remake/spin-off lineup of consoles in their twilight years.

Keep in mind that copyright protects works and the characters contained within, rather than all aspects of characters that debuted within a work but went on to appear in and be developed in derivative works. This effectively means only the aspects of the character that are established in that original work are public domain. Using aspects of the character that are established in works still protected by copyright still qualifies as copyright infringement. That's why everyone is noting that it's Steamboat Willie's version of Mickey Mouse that is public domain, not the entirety of Mickey. This is going to protect the substance of a lot of characters, as many of their defining characteristics weren't introduced until later works. For example, even when Superman becomes public domain, it's still going to take about a decade before depicting Superman flying becomes public domain because he didn't obtain this power until the Fleisher cartoons of the 1940s decided animating massive leaps would be infeasible. This is what Disney is relying on to substantially protect Mickey and my guess is Warner Bros. will do the same once DC's heroes start hitting the public domain.

These companies will also still have the trademark over these characters, which will prevent people from selling products attached to the brand of a public domain character. Trademarks, IIRC, are indefinite across basically every IP jurisdiction globally. This will likely be the main tool used to control marketplaces.

I think a part of why it'll be such a big deal is precisely because of how much some of these projects will stray from the canon. Them being prohibited from using certain aspects is one aspect, and another will be because that's the point. Look at the slasher movie being made with this Mickey.

And as the novelty of straying from the canon wears off, more from the canon will become legally useable.

 

[SPEN18]

Also, late to the discussion, but I don't think the Xenoblade icon needs to be replaced. I don't think they'd be opposed in principle to changing franchise logos, but in this case it's not necessary IMO. Shulk's original Monado is still some of the most widely recognizable iconography in the series, and much less generic than a stylized "X" or the Aegis cores would appear.

And, yeah, I was gonna point out that no one complains about Marth's Falchion being used to represent all of FE. Though the more cynical viewpoint would chalk that up to Smash fans not knowing or caring about FE.

 

[smashkirby]

Hey, I have a question.

If Super Smash Bros. Ultimate given us an ACTUAL Story mode (in the vein of Subspace Emissary), how do you all think the alt. skin characters (i.e. Alph, the Koopalings, Pikachu Libre, Spiky-eared Pichu, Leaf, and the multitude of gender-based model swaps) would have been treated?

Like, do you all think the story would have treated them separate from their base character AND part of the story, or would they have just not be involved in the story at all?

For the record, I'd like to quickly point out that World of Light's opening cutscene, as well as Smash Ultimate's teaser reveal and the reveal trailers for Sora, Bowser Jr., and the Koopalings all appear to strongly imply that those alternate characters ARE considered to be part of Smash's roster (in the sense that they each got their own 'invitations' to join Smash Bros.).

 

[Noipoi]

Hey, I have a question.

If Super Smash Bros. Ultimate given us an ACTUAL Story mode (in the vein of Subspace Emissary), how do you all think the alt. skin characters (i.e. Alph, the Koopalings, Pikachu Libre, Spiky-eared Pichu, Leaf, and the multitude of gender-based model swaps) would have been treated?

Like, do you all think the story would have treated them separate from their base character AND part of the story, or would they have just not be involved in the story at all?

For the record, I'd like to quickly point out that World of Light's opening cutscene, as well as Smash Ultimate's teaser reveal and the reveal trailers for Sora, Bowser Jr., and the Koopalings all appear to strongly imply that those alternate characters ARE considered to be part of Smash's roster (in the sense that they each got their own 'invitations' to join Smash Bros.).

Alts like Pikachu Libre wouldn’t show up at all. Alts like the Koopalings or Leaf might be their own individual characters.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I honestly wouldn't mind a "games as a service" version of Smash so long as still launches with a substantial amount of content (which I'm sure it would,) and doesn't adopt a bunch of predatory practices. A free to play version handled in a similar vein to DOA5 or the more recent Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising would be okay imo.

As for revising old movesets. "What's the point in giving new movesets to old characters?

To keep things fresh? To continue to iterate and make improvements/adjustments? This sentiment has never made much sense to me tbh. Not even a more rigidly designed character like Ryu has remained the same from SFII up until now in SF6.

This is understandably more of a preference as I'm sure plenty of people are satisfied with the current movesets, but at the same time, just as many feel like certain characters; Bowser, Samus, Ganondorf, Sonic, etc. could use some overhauls or adjustments. How much or how little will also vary depending on who you ask but I feel like a lot of people often misrepresent or are very dismissive of requests for adjusting veterans.

That's true, I should have phrased it better. Thing is, "reboot" as it's usually used would mean in this case redesigning everyone from the ground up as if Smash 64 to Ultimate never happened, and I really don't see much value in that, as most characters are already perfectly functional, and also, since Smash uses pre-existing characters, a lot of them wouldn't end up being all that different anyways. For example, Yoshi is always going to have flatter jump, egg toss and ground pound at the very least, and starting from there I'm not sure you'd end up all that far from current Yoshi.

Adjustements to pre-existing movesets in order to freshen them up a bit and/or to make them more functional are something I'd welcome, of course, but it's also something that has more or less been happening all throughout the series, regardless of cuts. I'm not sure why it's always being presented as an either or nowadays.
But also l'm maybe easy to please. Just give Samus back her Super Metroid run :'(

 

[Gengar84]

That's true, I should have phrased it better. Thing is, "reboot" as it's usually used would mean in this case redesigning everyone from the ground up as if Smash 64 to Ultimate never happened, and I really don't see much value in that, as most characters are already perfectly functional, and also, since Smash uses pre-existing characters, a lot of them wouldn't end up being all that different anyways. For example, Yoshi is always going to have flatter jump, egg toss and ground pound at the very least, and starting from there I'm not sure you'd end up all that far from current Yoshi.

Adjustements to pre-existing movesets in order to freshen them up a bit and/or to make them more functional are something I'd welcome, of course, but it's also something that has more or less been happening all throughout the series, regardless of cuts. I'm not sure why it's always being presented as an either or nowadays.
But also l'm maybe easy to please. Just give Samus back her Super Metroid run :'(

Welcome to Smashboards! It’s great to see a new face . I hope you enjoy your time here.

I normally don’t really care for the games as a service model but I think I might actually prefer it for games like Smash and Mario Kart. I’d love it if the just used Ultimate as a base and kept adding onto it. One thing I think we need is a good single player/co-op like Subspace Emissary but the actual battle mechanics are already great.

One reason for a potential reboot as opposed to a normal new entry is to separate it from Ultimate. If we get another game very similar to Ultimate with less content, I don’t see much incentive to buy it instead of just sticking to Ultimate. A reboot would make it feel like its own thing. One idea I’ve brought up is turning Smash into “Nintendo vs X” and just focus one one third party developer per game. That way we could see a completely fresh cast for half the roster each game and it would make negotiations for characters easier. It would also allow us to see some less mainstream characters we might not have gotten otherwise. With this idea, you wouldn’t even necessarily have to limit to video game companies anymore. We could also get things like Nintendo vs Marvel or Nintendo vs Shonen Jump.

 

[Garteam]

Sometimes I feel Smash fans act as if every single player buys every single DLC character and would continue to do so indefinitely...

Look, it's one thing to love DLC and the nature of content it enables, but you gotta admit it's terrible value relative to how much you get for your money in the base game, and generally diminishing returns for the company the longer it goes. Those who still can't fathom how Nintendo could possibly decide against doing a third Fighter Pass may need to wake up.
Not to mention how a potential evergreen system-seller like Smash desperately needs to be up-to-date mechanically and graphically every gen. Backwards compatibility of the Wii and Wii U did not render Brawl or Smash 4 unnecessary.
Continued DLC or DLC-styled content packs are simply not sustainable as the primary or premier source of new content for Smash. It's not the absolute win-win for player and developer that some make it out to be. Besides, even if I'm totally off and Smash could make it work for another whole gen somehow, we'll simply wind up in the same situation again, only worse and worse as far as the possibility of porting everything over and retaining the roster goes.

I have literally never seen a fanbase with so much straight-up animosity towards the very idea of a brand-new entry in their series. At a certain point, it's too much in my opinion. Regardless of your stance on particular characters, this overarching "no cuts, no buts" attitude is just not the hill I'm gonna die on when it comes to the longterm well-being of our beloved franchise.

Simmer down. The idea of returning to base Ultimate is pretty rarely brought up relative to the idea of Ultimate Deluxe, another conventional entry, or a reboot. No one in the thread is deathly committed to the idea of returning to Ultimate in the way that you're asserting. I'm probably the most vocal proponent for the idea here and even I think it's just one option available for the series going forward. Like with all options, it has a variety of pros and cons that come with it relative to other choices. I've posted hypothetical rosters for a Smash 6 that looks more like the jump from Melee to Brawl and Brawl to Smash for numerous times here. If you think my post spitballing this idea is "straight-up animosity towards the very idea of a brand-new entry in the series", then you are drastically misreading my intentions.

In terms of dollar value for the consumer, that's entirely relative to the individual. If you're just speaking in terms of characters, then yes. Ultimate's base game gets you about 60 characters for $60, while Fighter's Pass 2 gets you 10% of that for $30. However, you're solely interested in the unique newcomers to Smash available in a product, DLC has Ultimate's lunch. You're getting six newcomers in both Ultimate's base game and Fighter's Pass 2 despite the former being double the price of the latter. You could probably even argue that Fighter's Pass 2 gives you more of the content you want relative to Ultimate, as Isabelle is so heavily based on Villager. That's also not considering the idea of returning to Ultimate but not following the Fighter's Pass formula in favour of cheaper releases that only come with the character.

In terms of DLC generating diminishing returns, I would need to see some data that backs that up. Could it be true? Maybe. However, I think it's more likely that the sales of DLC fluctuate depending on who the fighter in question is. If I had to hazard a guess, Steve probably sold the best out of all of Ultimate's DLC characters because Minecraft is such a massive IP, but he was the eighth DLC fighter of 12 and he realized right as Ultimate entered its final year of support.

What is your vision for updating Smash mechanically and graphically for the next generation? Ultimate's mechanics, by and large, hold up fine. There are a handful of characters that could stand to have their win conditions altered (), but most people are reasonably happy with the speed, physics, and options available in Ultimate. I don't know if you things to get closer to Melee, but that honestly seems like a lost cause at this point. Having the skill ceiling be that high was a happy accident that goes against Sakurai's vision for the franchise, which is why competitive Melee fans have instead focused on mods and other platformer fighters like NASB2 to build off what Melee established. Likewise, Ultimate continues to look good graphically. The jump from the Wii to the Wii U was the largest increase in power and graphical fidelity between consoles in the past 15 years. Comparing the situation now to Brawl and Smash for is a false equivalency. By comparison, people seem to be largely dissatisfied that new console exclusives don't look like they're using new hardware relative to the previous gen. Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart, Spider-Man 2, and especially the Last of Us Part I have all been criticized for looking like they could run on the PS4. The reality is that the intergenerational, graphical arms race has largely plateaued in the HD era, with games looking less and less "new" as time goes on.

I certainly don't think returning to base Ultimate is a perfect solution, I'm just not seeing how this is the franchise-destroying decision that you seem to think it is.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

With Sakurai confirming that he’s still working on games, seemingly meaning at the same time he’s doing YouTube, I have to wonder if the New Smash has been in development for a while under a Skeleton crew.

It’s clear that out of Namco’s two newly branded studios, Studio S and Studio 2, Studio S is likely the one working on Smash and that perhaps the rebranding is a sign that Smash 7 or whatever has kicked into full production. I can imagine Nintendo would get to work immediately on a new Smash Bros. as quick as possible so I’m curious if it will come out at the next Switch’s Launch or if it will wait a year or so like Brawl, For, and Ultimate.

I do think it’s a safe assumption that Smash is in development but I think the most intriguing thing is, how long have they been working on it? Considering Namco has a studio that’s been basically formed just for making Smash Bros for a while now it might be a lot farther along than we think.

 

[Oracle Link]

Also Dragon quest is a similar case, with the logo being the mark of Erdrick, which only appeared in the first 3 Dragon quest games (not even in DQ11 despite the first costume and the stage being from this game).

The Dragonquest Logo shouldve been the slime TBH!

 

[Guynamednelson]

'm probably the most vocal proponent for the idea here and even I think it's just one option available for the series going forward. Like with all options, it has a variety of pros and cons that come with it relative to other choices. I've posted hypothetical rosters for a Smash 6 that looks more like the jump from Melee to Brawl and Brawl to Smash for numerous times here. If you think my post spitballing this idea is "straight-up animosity towards the very idea of a brand-new entry in the series", then you are drastically misreading my intentions.

I guess I should confess myself that while I am certain we won't get Ultimate Deluxe/FP3, speculation surrounding Studio S, the return of new spirits, and some people around December noticing how MK8D's Booster Course Pass had zero overlap with Smash's speculation season, I've been thinking in my head about ways SSBU could get its own BCP.

While Smash doesn't have a mobile game it can use to double its roster (and even if it did, the pass probably wouldn't be that big and you'd still have to give the fighters from it tons of extra animations to fit a console fighter), that isn't the only way they can make a pass out of reused assets anyway. At this point, almost any attack animation they would potentially need has already been made with the possible exception of things like holding two-handed guns, and between things like Mii costumes, stage cameos, the Waddle Dees that carry King Dedede in his entrance animation, and yes ats and poke balls, there's plenty of character models to use in SSBU as-is.

But hey, it's just a theory, a theory that's probably more unrealistic than hoping for a standard Fighter's Pass. Especially since the team is more likely to care about balance than mods that give games bigger rosters than SSBU, like PMEX Remix or UMvC3 Community Edition which would be a huge issue in making a huge pass.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

This is really just the beginning, though. What is DC going to do when in a decade-ish, their four most valuable characters (Superman, Batman, Joker, Wonder Woman) all become public domain for people to legally do whatever they want with?

Im counting the days so i can do whatever i want to Batman and be able to profit off of it.

 

[dream1ng]

With Sakurai confirming that he’s still working on games, seemingly meaning at the same time he’s doing YouTube, I have to wonder if the New Smash has been in development for a while under a Skeleton crew.

It’s clear that out of Namco’s two newly branded studios, Studio S and Studio 2, Studio S is likely the one working on Smash and that perhaps the rebranding is a sign that Smash 7 or whatever has kicked into full production. I can imagine Nintendo would get to work immediately on a new Smash Bros. as quick as possible so I’m curious if it will come out at the next Switch’s Launch or if it will wait a year or so like Brawl, For, and Ultimate.

I do think it’s a safe assumption that Smash is in development but I think the most intriguing thing is, how long have they been working on it? Considering Namco has a studio that’s been basically formed just for making Smash Bros for a while now it might be a lot farther along than we think.

I would think that Smash actually entered production when Studio S was formed. Studio S likely just being a permanent version of the team that worked on Ultimate and disbanded after Sora - with possible new members and possible previous members staying on in Harada's team.

But that doesn't mean that Studio S was formed shortly before it was announced. In theory it could've been active for an indefinite amount of time before Namco actually made its existence public. I would guess it existed for a couple of months before the announcement.

Also, entering production would follow pre-production, which would've happened before the team was re-assembled, and just involve Sakurai and a few other designers and executives. That could've happened months before actual production.

However, I don't think development proper started before 2023. Given when Ultimate's team disbanded, in late 2021, were development to start in 2022, I think it'd be a little counterproductive to shuffle them around that much.

So I would view 2023 as the equivalent to 2005, 2012 and 2015 for the previous games - the first year of development, beginning solely with pre-production. In theory it's possible pre-production began in 2022, but I think last year is likelier. Though we will probably find out eventually (though not for a while).

But I do believe base has been picked already, clones notwithstanding, and without it being in its final version (aka there could still be placeholders and cuts).

I don't think they're going to try to get it out immediately, though. I think they wouldn't have even taken a break after Ultimate were that the case, I mean the successor is probably due this year. And they likely have Mario Kart, 3D Mario and Gen 10 within the next two years. I also imagine they'll focus on getting Animal Crossing out quicker on this system.

 

[Will]

Studio S(akurai)

I honestly thought that was the whole schtick. It’s a commission-based studio.

I would think that Smash actually entered production when Studio S was formed. Studio S likely just being a permanent version of the team that worked on Ultimate and disbanded after Sora - with possible new members and possible previous members staying on in Harada's team.

Their website lists off their staff. It’s 32% fresh graduates but they don’t specify if the remaining team contains previous developers.

ARMS is in their catalog, though. Maybe that means something for the sequel console.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I would think that Smash actually entered production when Studio S was formed. Studio S likely just being a permanent version of the team that worked on Ultimate and disbanded after Sora - with possible new members and possible previous members staying on in Harada's team.

But that doesn't mean that Studio S was formed shortly before it was announced. In theory it could've been active for an indefinite amount of time before Namco actually made its existence public. I would guess it existed for a couple of months before the announcement.

Also, entering production would follow pre-production, which would've happened before the team was re-assembled, and just involve Sakurai and a few other designers and executives. That could've happened months before actual production.

However, I don't think development proper started before 2023. Given when Ultimate's team disbanded, in late 2021, were development to start in 2022, I think it'd be a little counterproductive to shuffle them around that much.

So I would view 2023 as the equivalent to 2005, 2012 and 2015 for the previous games - the first year of development, beginning solely with pre-production. In theory it's possible pre-production began in 2022, but I think last year is likelier. Though we will probably find out eventually (though not for a while).

But I do believe base has been picked already, clones notwithstanding, and without it being in its final version (aka there could still be placeholders and cuts).

I don't think they're going to try to get it out immediately, though. I think they wouldn't have even taken a break after Ultimate were that the case, I mean the successor is probably due this year. And they likely have Mario Kart, 3D Mario and Gen 10 within the next two years. I also imagine they'll focus on getting Animal Crossing out quicker on this system.

Was it ever stated that the Ultimate team was ever disbanded? I was of the mind that they might’ve picked up right where Ultimate left off like they did with Wii U. That is if Sakurai didn’t take a break at all.

Edit: I guess we should also take into account that planning started for Ultimate in 2015 which is even before the rest of the DLC was even out yet.

 

[dream1ng]

Their website lists off their staff. It’s 32% fresh graduates but they don’t specify if the remaining team contains previous developers.

ARMS is in their catalog, though. Maybe that means something for the sequel console.

I'm sure there are some new members on the team, but that's for Studio 2 and Studio S. It doesn't give a breakdown for each one individually.

ARMS is in their catalogue because Team 2 is comprised of the Nintendo support team who works with EPD9, the Kart and ARMS team.

Was it ever stated that the Ultimate team was ever disbanded? I was of the mind that they might’ve picked up right where Ultimate left off like they did with Wii U. That is if Sakurai didn’t take a break at all.

Harada said the team had been disbanded shortly after Sora came out. It's in a tweet from around then if you feel like hunting for it.