Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Oracle Link]

Luigi's Fire Ball is based on the green fire balls from Mario Bros...the game that Nintendo considers Luigi's official debut.

It has every reason to be on his moveset.

Okay yeah i sorta forgot they existed still that is a really outdated refrence as you could give luigi and ice ball if you want a diffrent fireball style attack!

 

[Gengar84]

the three in the thumbnail, bias, bias and what he thought the fans wanted. i don't know the castlevania fans so i'll just take his word for it

I haven’t watched the video yet but I’m pretty sure Rex didn’t make it due to technical limitations with his moveset. Sakurai wanted a wrestler archetype so Incineroar makes sense in that regard. Simon makes sense as the first CastleVania rep since he was the first playable character in the series. Richter was added because he was an easy echo.

 

[fogbadge]

I haven’t watched the video yet but I’m pretty sure Rex didn’t make it due to technical limitations with his moveset. Sakurai wanted a wrestler archetype so Incineroar makes sense in that regard. Simon makes sense as the first CastleVania rep since he was the first playable character in the series. Richter was added because he was an easy echo.

that’s why Rex a pyra didn’t make it is a duo. He later said in his famitsu article that he considered having Rex as part of the transformation but decided against it. Ergo bias. As for inceneroar, if sakurai is the one who wanted the wrestling moveset then it’s bias again.

 

[Gengar84]

that’s why Rex a pyra didn’t make it is a duo. He later said in his famitsu article that he considered having Rex as part of the transformation but decided against it. Ergo bias. As for inceneroar, if sakurai is the one who wanted the wrestling moveset then it’s bias again.

Perhaps but I think anyone in Sakurai’s position would have some amount of bias of their own. If you’re in charge of making the game you would at least want to include a few characters that you’re passionate about to help motivate you to work on it. I think most decisions came from the ballot and Nintendo rather than Sakurai himself for Ultimate anyway.

 

[fogbadge]

Perhaps but I think anyone in Sakurai’s position would have some amount of bias of their own. If you’re in charge of making the game you would at least want to include a few characters that you’re passionate about to help motivate you to work on the game. I think most decisions came from the ballot and Nintendo rather than Sakurai himself for Ultimate anyway.

i know and I don’t hold it against him even if I don’t like the characters. I just want to remind people that he’s pretty much admitted to it

 

[Wonder Smash]

For Capcom, I’ve always wanted to see a Street Fighter Vs. Mortal Kombat game. They’d have to tone down the violence for the MK characters but they’ve already done that with Injustice. SF and MK were the two biggest fighting series from back in the 90’s and each has several films and animations.

Another crossover that's long overdue.

Another crossover that would be cool to see is Marvel Vs Shonen Jump or Marvel Vs. DC. I’d also love to see a huge anime and manga crossover with characters from various companies not just limited to Shonen Jump.

I've also thought about the idea of a Tezuka vs. Capcom and despite not knowing that much about them (besides Astro Boy and Black Jack). I think I would have been more into that than Tatsunoko vs. Capcom. Tezuka characters looks a lot more interesting that Tatsunoko and I would have loved to see what Capcom would have done with them in their style.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I haven’t watched the video yet but I’m pretty sure Rex didn’t make it due to technical limitations with his moveset. Sakurai wanted a wrestler archetype so Incineroar makes sense in that regard. Simon makes sense as the first CastleVania rep since he was the first playable character in the series. Richter was added because he was an easy echo.

Both Simon and Richter were added together. It wasn't "who was first", as they were decided pretty much at the same time, being base game. Richter wasn't a last minute moment, either. As for who the Echo was, the thing is, Sakurai even pretty much joked about how you can't really tell at that point. That's not just because their movesets are nearly the same, but also because it's not really all that relevant when they're added at the same time. Simon's only factor that more or less gave him an edge is that he's the first character in the Castlevania franchise, but they're both the "first Castlevania characters in Smash".

As I've said before, timing does matter. They were in the same trailer, and unlike other clone-type characters, Echoes weren't "last minute" at all. They were intended from the start, and it wouldn't have made much sense for some to be programmed very late into the game. Daisy, Richter, Dark Pit, Lucina, and Dark Samus all share the same core animations with very few differences, making them easiest to test at the same time. Chrom has new animations, but also the first one to have a majorly different move, and Ken barely acts like an Echo. Meaning the chances Richter was pretty much added with Simon in every plausible way you can think of in any context is the most likely possible scenario. A.K.A. They were the first Castlevania characters no matter how you go about it(and the only actual example of this, as technicalities don't work. Special alternate costumes are the only other time with Steve and Alex, respectively. ...Hero is close, but none of them are explicitly named and Eleven's design alone is the featured one, heh).

 

[Schnee117]

Sakurai's joke is because most of the moveset beyond the whip and items is based around stuff Richter actually does. It's a joke that Simon is copying what Richter does because Simon's never actually done anything beyond use the whip and items in the games

 

[DarthEnderX]

the three in the thumbnail, bias, bias and what he thought the fans wanted. i don't know the castlevania fans so i'll just take his word for it

Alucard and SotN is the most popular CV game, but not having a Belmont as the first pick would have been weird.

 

[Sucumbio]

I feel like it's really easy to overthink this but I see them as debuting simultaneously. Their origins aside, it seems clear that moveset wise Richter is the basis. Just about their whole kit comes from the mid to late 90s era version of Richter. They could have given Simon some more unique things like maybe his diagonal whip from Super 4 or give Richter item crashes, etc. I wouldn't have minded a nod to the 64 game either. But fwiw Castlevania as a series saw its golden years represented best with Richter's design.

 

[Gengar84]

I feel like it's really easy to overthink this but I see them as debuting simultaneously. Their origins aside, it seems clear that moveset wise Richter is the basis. Just about their whole kit comes from the mid to late 90s era version of Richter. They could have given Simon some more unique things like maybe his diagonal whip from Super 4 or give Richter item crashes, etc. I wouldn't have minded a nod to the 64 game either. But fwiw Castlevania as a series saw its golden years represented best with Richter's design.

Yeah, it’s all kind of pointless to argue which is the echo since they both appeared at the same time and the moveset incorporates both characters. My personal view is that I see Simon as the primary just because he was the protagonist of the first CastleVania and was revealed first in their trailer. I feel like if we only got one character, it would have been Simon over Richter but that’s just my personal belief and I could be wrong.

 

[Idon]

I feel like it's really easy to overthink this but I see them as debuting simultaneously. Their origins aside, it seems clear that moveset wise Richter is the basis. Just about their whole kit comes from the mid to late 90s era version of Richter. They could have given Simon some more unique things like maybe his diagonal whip from Super 4 or give Richter item crashes, etc. I wouldn't have minded a nod to the 64 game either. But fwiw Castlevania as a series saw its golden years represented best with Richter's design.

They did give Simon is diagonal whip though, you can angle their forward, back air, and fsmash higher or lower and even the dumb little whip twirl if you hold out jab.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, it’s all kind of pointless to argue which is the echo since they both appeared at the same time and the moveset incorporates both characters. My personal view is that I see Simon as the primary just because he was the protagonist of the first CastleVania. I feel like if we only got one character, it would have been Simon over Richter but that’s just my personal belief and I could be wrong.

Basically, the only real designation for who is the Echo is who was shown off in the dual trailer first. Seems a good way to look at it at the end of the day. Echoes come after their counterpart, easy~

...I love Captain N, so Simon was easily my pick. Though Richter is awesome too. Trevor's another great Belmont, but I thoroughly enjoyed the Netflix show(I agree Season 4 was too fast, though).

 

[Sucumbio]

They did give Simon is diagonal whip though, you can angle their forward, back air, and fsmash higher or lower and even the dumb little whip twirl if you hold out jab.

Oh yah? Haha he's so hard for me to use I didn't even know!

 

[Lionfranky]

For Capcom, I’ve always wanted to see a Street Fighter Vs. Mortal Kombat game. They’d have to tone down the violence for the MK characters but they’ve already done that with Injustice. SF and MK were the two biggest fighting series from back in the 90’s and each has several films and animations.

Crossover proposal was rejected by Capcom.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I gotta admit, it probably would have seem strange if Simon appeared with all these moves that came from another character that could have been playable but didn't. So why not make them both playable? It made sense.

Crossover proposal was rejected by Capcom.

That was about a Street Fighter character appearing in a Mortal Kombat game.

 

[Gengar84]

I gotta admit, it probably would have seem strange if Simon appeared with all these moves that came from another character could have been playable but didn't. So why not make them both playable? It made sense.



That was about a Street Fighter character appearing in a Mortal Kombat game.

That’s a good point but didn’t they essentially do that with Ness? I’ve never played Earthbound but I remember people saying that Ness never actually learns many of the moves he uses in Smash in his own game and they were taken from other party members.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That’s a good point but didn’t they essentially do that with Ness? I’ve never played Earthbound but I remember people saying that Ness never actually learns many of the moves he uses in Smash in his own game and they were taken from other party members.

It's mostly treated as non-odd to a minor degree because the moves appear in his debut game and are from his friends. If he could be revamped otherwise, maybe.

It's also the age of "how can we make this character even work?" when there wasn't as easy fleshed out moveset choices for various protagonists. Fox is barely inspired by his games with a tiny select moves at best. Him doing kicks and punches have no basis whatsoever(he fights on foot... with a gun, at best, in 64). So some oddities are expected then, but less so nowadays. We still get unique ones like Pac-Man who focuses more on representing the Namco Arcade stuff(not just Namco as its whole, nor any part of its other side, Bandai).

 

[True Blue Warrior]

More or less what we’ve already known, but I figured it was worth sharing.

“With Spring Man already an Assist Trophy, he was not considered as a DLC fighter as far as we know”

Sakurai never said anything about Spring Man being barred due to being an AT. This is misinformation.

 

[Wonder Smash]

That’s a good point but didn’t they essentially do that with Ness? I’ve never played Earthbound but I remember people saying that Ness never actually learns many of the moves he uses in Smash in his own game and they were taken from other party members.

Things were probably different back then. During that time, it was just a matter of finding whatever they can from that game and making a Smash moveset out of it for Ness. And with such a small roster, it's obvious he wasn't coming with anybody else.

 

[Stratos]

Street Fighter vs Tekken vs Mortal Kombat.

 

[Sucumbio]

Quick question off topic but y'all smart if someone has a theory or whatever and research only shows one article backing it out of dozens (that just don't mention it not necessarily countering it) but you then use that one source to confirm your hypothesis is THAT "confirmation bias"?? I keep seeing this term and I'm not understanding it's usage because it seems inconsistent.

 

[Stratos]

Some people think of the strangest crossover and I refer to "Nintendo vs. Disney".

 

[fogbadge]

Street Fighter vs Tekken vs Mortal Kombat.

what, no soul calibur?

 

[Stratos]

what, no soul calibur?

And Soul Calibur too.

 

[chocolatejr9]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larsonsoft/cross-impact-an-indie-crossover-platform-fighter

Another indie Smash style game, for anybody interested, though some of these choices are a bit... unique. Also, if you donate $1000, you'll be allowed to pick a character to add, apparently: I know some Smash fans who'd be willing to pay ten times that to get their dream pick in...

 

[PeridotGX]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larsonsoft/cross-impact-an-indie-crossover-platform-fighter

Another indie Smash style game, for anybody interested, though some of these choices are a bit... unique. Also, if you donate $1000, you'll be allowed to pick a character to add, apparently: I know some Smash fans who'd be willing to pay ten times that to get their dream pick in...

The only character here that I recognize is Alex Yiik. I don't want to say that's a red flag but it really makes it a struggle to care.

 

[Speed Weed]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larsonsoft/cross-impact-an-indie-crossover-platform-fighter

Another indie Smash style game, for anybody interested, though some of these choices are a bit... unique. Also, if you donate $1000, you'll be allowed to pick a character to add, apparently: I know some Smash fans who'd be willing to pay ten times that to get their dream pick in...

Why the **** would you ever add Alex YIIK. What the actual **** is wrong with these people

 

[Sucumbio]

I've never heard of any of those lol

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You know if one of the kickstarter stretch goals was removing YIIK, they'd get funded in no time.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You know if one of the kickstarter stretch goals was removing YIIK, they'd get funded in no time.

I'M YIIKING OUT!

As in, taking YIIK out of the game.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Quick question off topic but y'all smart if someone has a theory or whatever and research only shows one article backing it out of dozens (that just don't mention it not necessarily countering it) but you then use that one source to confirm your hypothesis is THAT "confirmation bias"?? I keep seeing this term and I'm not understanding it's usage because it seems inconsistent.

I don't think so.

If somebody keeps going by an official source that's clearly not up to date, then I say that's confirmation bias. But if it's from an official source that hasn't truly been disproven (as in straight up showing that it's wrong rather than talking about whether or not it's likely), then I don't consider it confirmation bias.

I've never heard of any of those lol

Same here.

 

[Zerp]

Ngl Toree is genuinely a great pick for an indie platfighter that isn't aiming for big huge names. Not sure how many people here are familiar with Sciantro but that studio's got a small cult following. They're known for making small N64-esque Scrimblo games in the modern day. So like, a character from them is pretty perfect if you wanted your indie fighter to have it's own Banjo-Kazooie lol.

 

[Aaayei]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larsonsoft/cross-impact-an-indie-crossover-platform-fighter

Another indie Smash style game, for anybody interested, though some of these choices are a bit... unique. Also, if you donate $1000, you'll be allowed to pick a character to add, apparently: I know some Smash fans who'd be willing to pay ten times that to get their dream pick in...

Everyone's dumping on the titular Yiik and rightfully so, but I gotta admit Toree is a cool cut at least.

 

[dream1ng]

I actually plan on watching the movie this upcoming weekend now that it's available to watch digitally.

Different mediums may carry different expectations but when it comes to adaptations, it's going to be drawing attention of fans from that other media and these fans will come with expectations based on their experiences with that series from that other media.

So with the Mario movie, I'm not sure exactly what people expected as far as writing goes but anytime I hear about that, I'm thinking "Is Mario even known for its writing?"

Movies are, principally, stories. Games are, principally, games. If a game becomes a movie, the priority of the story shifts upward, and thus the bar for writing quality raises commensurately.

When a movie gets a game from its universe, the bar for writing quality shifts down, and the expectations are lowered, because the first focus of a game is the gameplay. When Goldeneye the game came out, people didn't hold against it the fact that its writing was not as good as the movie, because those weren't the expectations. Yet the gameplay was good enough that the game got a lot of praise despite the writing being worse than the movie. Because it was a game.

Even when a platformer series gets an RPG, the expectation for the writing increases. Not to movie level, but above platformer level. Because an RPG is more story-heavy. The priority of the writing shifts upward, and thus, the expectations for the writing too. But if an RPG series got a fighting game, the expectations for the story/writing would shift down.

It seems that you still aren't grasping what I'm saying about how standards and expectations differ based on what the actual product is.

If Mario somehow got a novel, you couldn't just say "well, is Mario even known for its writing?" to justify poor writing. Because it's a novel. It's the same principle for a movie, just not quite at that level. Writing carries more weight for narrative-oriented mediums.

And it's not about people not knowing anything about Mario but rather, people thinking there's more to Mario based what they see in the movie when there's not. Adding some things is okay but if they add too much to the point that it gives off the wrong impression of the series, then it becomes a problem. Being a movie is not an excuse for that. In fact, stuff like that could end up splitting up the audience and then it becomes a question of are they appealing to the long time Mario fans who experienced the series from the games? Or are they appealing to new fans who only just know about Mario from the movie?

But anyway, like I said, this weekend, hopefully I'll finally get a chance to watch it.

Let me say it again: people will not carry with them the expectation for the same level of writing from a movie to a platforming video game. People know these are different things. People also know that adaptations change things. Most people are aware that Mario barely even talks in the games, so they're not going to expect depth out of him like he was some sort of Byronic hero.

The much bigger change is that when he opens his mouth, it's Chris ****ing Pratt. At that point giving him and the other characters a scene or two more to anchor themselves emotionally with the audience isn't going to cause dysphoria when someone next plays Even Newer Super Mario Bros 3D Deluxe. These aren't reasons for a movie to deliberately not dig past the surface on its characters. It's just going to make weak writing better.

You want to talk about wrong impressions of a series? Resident Evil, Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Silent Hill, Rampage, etc. just made up new characters as the protagonists. Hell, look at the liberties any other video game movie made, the non-impact it made on the games' reception, and then tell me improving the characterization of the Mario characters is a bridge too far.

People know a movie is a movie and a game is a game. Look at the time the GP just shrugged off Pikachu turning into Deadpool.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Movies are, principally, stories. Games are, principally, games. If a game becomes a movie, the priority of the story shifts upward, and thus the bar for writing quality raises commensurately.

When a movie gets a game from its universe, the bar for writing quality shifts down, and the expectations are lowered, because the first focus of a game is the gameplay. When Goldeneye the game came out, people didn't hold against it the fact that its writing was not as good as the movie, because those weren't the expectations. Yet the gameplay was good enough that the game got a lot of praise despite the writing being worse than the movie. Because it was a game.

Even when a platformer series gets an RPG, the expectation for the writing increases. Not to movie level, but above platformer level. Because an RPG is more story-heavy. The priority of the writing shifts upward, and thus, the expectations for the writing too. But if an RPG series got a fighting game, the expectations for the story/writing would shift down.

It seems that you still aren't grasping what I'm saying about how standards and expectations differ based on what the actual product is.

If Mario somehow got a novel, you couldn't just say "well, is Mario even known for its writing?" to justify poor writing. Because it's a novel. It's the same principle for a movie, just not quite at that level. Writing carries more weight for narrative-oriented mediums.

But when it's a first time adaptation or reboot adaptation, fans who are already familiar with this are going to be expecting what they already know based on their experience with, no matter what's being adapted into. That's how adaptations work and it's the safest way to do it. It's not always about where it comes from. It's about what it is. People are not going to just ignore the original source material.

Let's look at your Goldeneye example again (RIP Tina Turner, by the way). Sure, it was a game first and foremost but they still did whatever they could to adapt the story because what people expect is the movie in the form of a game. It was called Goldeneye 007 and the 007 series has always been story-based, so what do you think they're expecting?

Let's also look at Metal Gear. It's a video game series but it's also known for its story. In fact, it's influenced by many Hollywood movies, so it's storyline is very noticeable. Heck, the story plays into the game. But here's the thing; it's not an RPG, not a movie, and is not a novel. Yet, it has some very interesting, yet deep stories. So what are people are going to expect when if it's adapted into a movie? A very interesting, yet deep story. Not just because it's a movie but because it's Metal Gear.

Or you could look at the The Last of Us. Also not an RPG, a movie or novel but it's a video game that's also known for dark, intense, and emotional story. So therefore, when a TV series of it was announced, people who were familiar with that series expected that because that's what The Last of Us is also known for.

Now as for Mario being adapted in a novel, I probably would still say that. If it the writing is really good, fine. I'll be really impressed. But if it's not, then how much do I hold that against a series that I've never known to have good writing? It'll just be the same thing because...that's just Mario.

Let me say it again: people will not carry with them the expectation for the same level of writing from a movie to a platforming video game. People know these are different things. People also know that adaptations change things. Most people are aware that Mario barely even talks in the games, so they're not going to expect depth out of him like he was some sort of Byronic hero.

The much bigger change is that when he opens his mouth, it's Chris ****ing Pratt. At that point giving him and the other characters a scene or two more to anchor themselves emotionally with the audience isn't going to cause dysphoria when someone next plays Even Newer Super Mario Bros 3D Deluxe. These aren't reasons for a movie to deliberately not dig past the surface on its characters. It's just going to make weak writing better.

You want to talk about wrong impressions of a series? Resident Evil, Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Silent Hill, Rampage, etc. just made up new characters as the protagonists. Hell, look at the liberties any other video game movie made, the non-impact it made on the games' reception, and then tell me improving the characterization of the Mario characters is a bridge too far.

People know a movie is a movie and a game is a game. Look at the time the GP just shrugged off Pikachu turning into Deadpool.

And let me say this again; when it's a first time adaptation or reboot adaptation, fans who are already familiar with this are going to be expecting what they already know in a different medium, no matter what it is.

After hearing Charles Martinet for so long, listening to Chris Pratt (who sounds much different) is a new territory. Delving deeper into the characters in ways the video games didn't is a new territory. Fleshing out the story more than the games hardly ever did is a new territory.

These are three risky things for a first time adaptation and that's why like I said, adding some things is okay but if they add too much, that's a problem.

As for the movies you mentioned, those games are VERY different from Mario in many ways.

But like I said, I plan on watching it this weekend to see if the writing really is poor. But I'm also not expecting much out of the writing anyway.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larsonsoft/cross-impact-an-indie-crossover-platform-fighter

Another indie Smash style game, for anybody interested, though some of these choices are a bit... unique. Also, if you donate $1000, you'll be allowed to pick a character to add, apparently: I know some Smash fans who'd be willing to pay ten times that to get their dream pick in...

Hotline Miami and Ultrakill are rad.

But wtf at YIIK. LMAO

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I wouldn't say expectations are lowered for game stories compared to movie stories, it's just that expectations for both mediums are different. Video Games can and have done great storytelling before and Mario has been criticize for a barebone plot before despite being VGs

Video games turned into movies adaptations until recently weren't looked with high regards and were notorious for missing the spirit of source materials

Same can apply vice versa with movie tie-in, licensed games usually being the bottom-barrel. What makes Good story for Game or good story for the movie are different.

Which also means saying "Who's need depth, it's Mario" is a weak defense which not only does the series disservice but also the movie itself in some ways. There were geniunely good moments within the movie. Just needed more time and less cuts.

 

[fogbadge]

thus the bar for writing quality raises commensurately.

if only the movie industry knew that

 

[Amornal1]

I hope that the arisen from dragon dogma is more talked in the Smash community.