Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Lyncario]

Reimu gang, rise up.

 

[Jondolio]

Yo mods, I asked this before, but is there gonna be a dedicated roster thread?

Last time there was some drama that led to the old one being closed and any roster discussion had to take place in the speculation thread

It was stupid and I would really appreciate it if there was a separate thread for this considering not all of us are interested in speculating for the next game

 

[Gengar84]

Smash fans: "Oh MaN ULtImAtEs NeWcOmErS WeRe So GoOd HoW WiLL ThE NeXt SmAsH Be AbLe To CoMpArE!?"

"Allow us to introduce ourselves"

View attachment 335308

View attachment 335316

(And these are just the characters that I personally care about to varying different extents. Looking outside my bubble there's still a plethora of characters that are popular and would make many people happy like, are iconic, have a notable legacy to gaming, are just plain old cool, etc.)

That’s a very good list of characters. Several of them are in my top 25 most wanted so I’d be really happy with it even if it is missing many characters from my personal top 10.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Gonna be rooting for Lucas to return unless he's officially announced alongside the next game. Him being initially cut from Smash 4 still haunts me to this day.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Grand Theft Auto: The Trilogy – The Definitive Edition is coming to #NintendoSwitch #eShop on 11/11, and a physical version will be in stores on 07/12!

Pre-order today: https://t.co/RxJBu7Ruq2 pic.twitter.com/J8r8HC8wLP

— Nintendo of Europe (@NintendoEurope) October 22, 2021

So, what are the chances for CJ in Smash 6?

 

[NintenRob]

Lmao, this already exists.

I think I'm ready for change. Curious what direction the next Smash will go.

 

[Geno Boost]

Geno for Smash!
Saying it for the million time

I could be saying this until smash 10 when everyone here gets their wishes granted except me lol

 

[SKX31]

So, what are the chances for CJ in Smash 6?

100 % a lock as long as he follows that damned train.

Also, Suda51 and his gang has joined... NetEase? That caught me completely off guard honestly.

NetEase continues to strengthen its position in Japan

The company's self developed titles cracked the market a few years ago

In 2020 it set up a new studio in the country to develop HD games

Now they've hired Suda51 and team and are working on hiring Nagoshi and team from Sega https://t.co/dzX1drwY7v

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) October 22, 2021

 

[Gengar84]

Aaaaaa

Gonna be rooting for Lucas to return unless he's officially announced alongside the next game. Him being initially cut from Smash 4 still haunts me to this day.

Yeah, I feel the same way about Sephiroth. He’s one of my favorite video game characters ever and I think his only real chance to return is if Smash 6 just builds onto Ultimate rather than rebooting the series.

 

[Staarih]

A rare instance of Nintendo actually delaying a game with a set release date:

Hello, troops! #AdvanceWars 1+2: Re-Boot Camp, which was set to launch on 12/3, will now release for #NintendoSwitch in spring 2022. The game just needs a little more time for fine tuning. You'll be battling with Andy & friends soon! Thanks for your patience. pic.twitter.com/dSi8VSsxTH

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) October 22, 2021

I guess they really want to meet the reception and expectations, which is good of course. I'd love to see Advance Wars perform well. Also Andy in Smash.

Also, hello new thread.

 

[Yiptap]

A WarioWare rep feels more likely since Get it Together. The most likely rep is Ashley due to her popularity, but here’s an off the wall pick I think could work...

Pyoro. I’m not even joking.

 

[NintenRob]

Aaaaaa

Yeah, I feel the same way about Sephiroth. He’s one of my favorite video game characters ever and I think his only real chance to return is if Smash 6 just builds onto Ultimate rather than rebooting the series.

Makes me wonder, if Sephiroth and Cloud are a package deal now, is it possible for Cloud to return but not Sephiroth.

Then again, Sephiroth in Smash feels like a condition for Cloud returning in the first place. It's like square "You can have Cloud, but we need something in return for DLC." Fleshing out FF7 with Sephiroth instead.

Of course, Sephiroth could just DLC again, or perhaps a third Final Fantasy character is included?

 

[Gengar84]

There are still plenty of Japanese characters I’d love to see in Smash but I’m really hoping the next Smash has at least a bit more focus on Western characters. I’d love to see characters like Fulgore, the Battletoads, Sub-Zero, Illidan Stormrage, and Sarah Kerrigan make it into Smash at some point (provided Blizzard has a huge restructuring and gets rid of anyone who was contributing to the hostile work environment by the time the next Smash comes around).

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

Dunno what it is but Shantae to me feels almost a certain guarantee.

 

[Ura]

A rare instance of Nintendo actually delaying a game with a set release date:

Hello, troops! #AdvanceWars 1+2: Re-Boot Camp, which was set to launch on 12/3, will now release for #NintendoSwitch in spring 2022. The game just needs a little more time for fine tuning. You'll be battling with Andy & friends soon! Thanks for your patience. pic.twitter.com/dSi8VSsxTH

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) October 22, 2021

I guess they really want to meet the reception and expectations, which is good of course. I'd love to see Advance Wars perform well. Also Andy in Smash.

Also, hello new thread.

This is good news IMO. I felt that this game needed to be delayed since the marketing was bad with no release date in Japan and also, to impress the players who weren't sold with what was shown at E3. Looking forward when this game releases Spring 2022.

Also, I love how they addressed Andy by his name. I think that's a clear difference from back in the GBA days where they would just say "Orange Star" rather than the CO's names. Maybe that means there's more emphasis on the CO's themselves which would mean good things for Andy's Smash Bros prospects next time around.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

This is good news IMO. I felt that this game needed to be delayed since the marketing was bad with no release date in Japan and also, to impress the players who weren't sold with what was shown at E3. Looking forward when this game releases Spring 2022.

Also, I love how they addressed Andy by his name. I think that's a clear difference from back in the GBA days where they would just say "Orange Star" rather than the CO's names. Maybe that means there's more emphasis on the CO's themselves which would mean good things for Andy's Smash Bros prospects next time around.

I agree that this is good news in a way, but now my biggest fear is that it could be overshadow because 2022 seems to be a hige year for Nintendo. We already know that Kirby 3d released in Spring 2022 too.

 

[Gengar84]

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

For Assist Trophies, I’ll go with Zero and Guile. For Mii outfits, I think I’ll go with The Black Knight, Dante, Doomslayer and Dixie Kong.

 

[Wunderwaft]

A WarioWare rep feels more likely since Get it Together. The most likely rep is Ashley due to her popularity, but here’s an off the wall pick I think could work...
View attachment 335359
Pyoro. I’m not even joking.

I love how he came with a cute and out of place 3D model in the game. Love this little guy.

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

Sure, why not.

AT: Waluigi and Ashley
Mii: Dante, Doom Slayer, Sans, and Monster Hunter

These are characters that I want to see playable next time and I also believe they have a good shot to become fighters.

 

[Geno Boost]

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

For the Mii Costumes I would choose Geno and Doom slayer and Arthur and Bomberman
For assist trophies I would choose Isaac and Sukapon

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So...

Has the new thread made any good memes yet?

 

[Staarih]

Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

I'd probably go with Sans, Shantae, Isaac and Geno for Mii costumes. I think Sans and Kazuya's Mii wave were the few instances where Sakurai outright said they were popular requests, so I think they have a good place to grow. Isaac and Geno mainly just because of them being some of the last "og wants", and personal wants too.

For Assist Trophies... a tough pick, lots of good ones now that I think about it haha. Waluigi and Shovel Knight, probably. Krystal and Isaac (ofc) are good, older requests too and I personally really like Dillon too, though he's never really been relevant enough sadly. Takamaru would be a great retro pick. If some of them have to be Echoes like Chrom/Dark Samus/Daisy, Spring Man would be an ideal choice, I want the protagonist-not-really-protagonist of ARMS in the game.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Don’t sleep on Takamaru




…please

 

[Megadoomer]

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

If we're going with "who would I choose" rather than "who do I think is likely"...

Mii promotions: Geno, Dante, Doomguy, Sans (Shantae just barely missed the cut)
AT promotions: Midna, Shovel Knight (I was torn between these two, Isaac, and Sukapon, but a Zelda character seems long overdue, and it would be nice to see a proper playable indie character since Steve is a bit of a weird example)

Admittedly, Shovel Knight has been playable in multiple Smash-like games (Shovel Knight Showdown, Rivals of Aether, and possibly Fraymakers depending on how that game's roster turns out), but it would be neat to see him playable alongside the characters that inspired him, such as Mario, Link, or (hopefully) Mega Man.

 

[Paraster]

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

Miis: Geno, Shantae, Saki, Shantae (honorable mention to Sans, though I'd prefer Frisk or Papyrus)
ATs: Shovel Knight, Isaac (honorable mention to Krystal)

Now that Assist Trophies have been reset, Shovel Knight is back in the slot of "most likely indie character" to me. Shantae and a UT rep are tied for second, Quote and Reimu are tied for third. I legitimately think the next Smash will give a full indie fighter (that doesn't have weird qualifiers like Steve).

 

[Geno Boost]

Don’t sleep on Takamaru




…please

It’s difficult to tell what retro rep would be likely next he would be competing with so much other retro reps in the next game and a retro rep may get skipped over just like ultimate

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Same. They really just closed ALL those character-support threads just for a general support thread like this? And after I joined just to get a last word in on the KOS-MOS thread.

Anyway, for the next Smash, I'm going to hope against all odds that they could keep Everyone Is Here going. Really, once you get over the whole licensing hurdle (which might actually be a bit overblown, especially given how many third parties WANT to be in Smash), Ultimate already has a fantastic foundation, but it's missing some pretty major features and series' staples. Break The Targets, a proper Adenture Mode, better online, getting rid of that input buffer, and some other things that make it absolutely RIPE for a deluxe edition (to say nothing of the potential for an all-DLC physical release). Also, if Everyone Is Here manages to remain, we can avoid having a DLC cycle that's taken up by requests for returning veterans (which, after Smash4, might've been exactly the sort of thing Sakurai wanted to avoid).

As for new characters, I'm going to continuing stanning for KOS-MOS and Reimu, while also returning to stanning Lip so long as Mii costume upgrades (especially first-party) are on the table. I also want Lana (a Nintendo/Koei Tecmo collaboration rep would be awesome, and while Age of Calamity got the Spirit event, I was greatly saddened by the lack of ANY content from the first Hyrule Warriors) and Terra (though really, I'd like any Final Fantasy character that isn't from VII, but I prefer Terra, plus Sakurai did acknowledge her, albeit in passing as a Cloud alternative). And speaking of Final Fantasy VII, since the floodgates were opened for multiple unique Fighters from the same franchise...... screw it, let's just get the entire trio of Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles in there. I guess Zero and a Shin Megami Tensei rep would also be cool (how do we get a whole Persona5 Spirit Board, but not a Jack Frost Spirit?).

I actually like World of Light if I’m being honest. I just think it could use some tweaks here and there. When I can I’ll do a big ass write up on how to improve WoL and other single player contents

big agree on hoping for Everyone Is Back tho

 

[Gengar84]

It’s difficult to tell what retro rep would be likely next he would be competing with so much other retro reps in the next game and a retro rep may get skipped over just like ultimate

Even though the series is still relevant, I still consider Simon to be a retro character. I feel CastleVania was at its most popular during the NES-PS1 days.

Everyone’s definition of “retro” is different but what I consider “retro” would be someone who debuted in the 2D era who’s games were most famous for that era, even if they do still get games on occasion. For example, I’d call Bill Rizer and the Battletoads retro but probably not Mario or Sonic.

 

[Fluttershy64]

Lmao, this already exists.

I think I'm ready for change. Curious what direction the next Smash will go.

I see it going in 2 ways. The first is a Mario Kart 8 Deluxe method where it’s just ported over to the new consul except with added characters and stages. The second is simply Smash 6 with cuts. I don’t see Smash doing a soft reboot and only adding 12 characters. Mortal Kombat had a game where they included all the characters and while their next game was a soft reboot they didn’t include only 12/ a small amount of characters they had a really large roster with pretty much all the fan favorites.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm simple with it. If it's two consoles back, it's a retro game to me.

But yeah, there's many ways to look at it. Though I don't consider Simon a specific retro rep, though to be fair, Duck Hunt was added as a surprise character, not a retro one, so... it's kind of odd.

 

[PeridotGX]

QUOTE="Geno Boost, post: 24590378, member: 257620"]
It’s difficult to tell what retro rep would be likely next he would be competing with so much other retro reps in the next game and a retro rep may get skipped over just like ultimate
[/QUOTE]
I'd go with DK JR. For being such an important part of Nintendo history, the Arcade DK trilogy doesn't have much representation (pretty much only 75m, which might be worse than nothing).

 

[ShotoStar]

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

Mii upgrades:
Dovahkiin (honestly feel like with how his popularity was surprisingly mentioned when Doom Guy's wasn't might make Dovahkiin more likely, especially if we get Master Chief. Plus I think Dovahkiin would be more interesting moveset wise to be honest.)

Sans/An Undertale Character (I both want and about 90% expect this to happen. An Undertale character is the only strong feeling I have on who will be there third party wise, I'm very confident in it. Shantae could also happen but.... like, Why not go with an indie that has more of a legacy and popularity? Something that most people could get behind?)

Bomberman (This one depends on if Konami returns which I personally think is fairly likely, I think most people overplay how many cuts we'll end up getting and it really did seem like they wanted to include Bomberman what with the Assist and also having the Mii Costume be very special with alternate colors. I think a big reason it didn't happen was just due to limited inclusions so next game? I think Bomberman has a fair shot and also I think he'd be cool. He feels like he should be here already but he just... isn't playable.)

Geno (Please... PLEASE the only character I feel is genuinely missing from the roster is Geno. I have other wants but if Geno got in I will be satisfied forever. Of course I'm not saying other franchises aren't of higher priority from Nintendo's perspective and they don't seem like bigger exclusions and I am totally happy with the roster as it is but... I just can't help but wish he was here. He was my go-to, my #1, my boy. It's a shame and I really desperately hope next time is his chance with the three biggest Square franchises out of the way.)


Assist Upgrades:

Samurai Goroh (I feel like F-Zero is long due for a new character, not due to it being a massive franchise but due to it's seniority and long-lasting legacy with Smash. Captain Falcon has been here since forever and I'd love to see what they can come up with for a new F-Zero character, particularly Samurai Goroh becuase he's fun and also a Samurai. Plus, Takamaru's chances are like over... He feels like a Smash 4 inclusion, it feels like he missed his chance so Samurai Goroh would be cool too.)

Sukapon (Sukapon my beloved)

 

[Guynamednelson]

It’s difficult to tell what retro rep would be likely next he would be competing with so much other retro reps in the next game and a retro rep may get skipped over just like ultimate

The skipping over mainly has to do with each phase of SSBU's development not having enough time to devote resources to some random character from the NES, unless you consider when they were making Piranha Plant, and even then, PP might've had to be chosen over some random character from an unrepped franchise because they didn't want to make a new stage, remixes etc.

 

[Geno Boost]

Even though the series is still relevant, I still consider Simon to be a retro character. I feel CastleVania was at its most popular during the NES-PS1 days.

Everyone’s definition of “retro” is different but what I consider “retro” would be someone who debuted in the 2D era who’s games were most famous for that era, even if they do still get games on occasion. For example, I’d call Bill Rizer and the Battletoads retro but probably not Mario or Sonic.

My definition of retro rep is a character from a franchise has not yet received a revival for ages and still hasnt

 

[Paraster]

Do you think the next Smash would be developed by Namco again, or would someone else be selected? How much would Namco not developing it affect the odds of Pac-Man and Kazuya returning?

 

[Fluttershy64]

Random question: Ultimate's newcomer had 4 newcomer who were mii costumes in Smash 4 (Inkling, Chrom, K. Rool and Daisy) and 2 newcomers who were Assist trophies (Dark samus and Isabelle). Just for fun, let's assume that's a pattern and we'll get a similar number of mii costumes upgrades and assist trophies upgrades in the next game, who would you choose?

For the mii costumes I would go with Cuphead, the Dragonborn, Dante and Doom slayer.
For the assist trophies I think I would go with Takamaru and Ashley but there's so many good choices (like Shovel knight would be a very close third).

I see smash six having more AT upgrades than Mii costumes. But for mii costumes the only ones I really would like would be Lloyd, Shantae, and Geno. I would also be OK Dante. For AT I would like Waluigi, Krystal, Isaac, Takamaru, Bomberman, Starfy, Ashley and Nintendog. If I had to choose only one upgrade I would choose Krystal, i’ve wanted her for 13 years so it’s a long time coming.

 

[Opossum]

My definition of retro rep is a character from a franchise has not yet received a revival for ages and still hasnt

This is something I genuinely think has been lost more and more in the greater discourse. During Smash 4 it was generally understood that, like you said, a "retro character" had a very specific meaning: a first party character from a dead, usually-one-off game for the NES, SNES, or GameBoy. A character that was done and dusted by the time those crazy things called "polygons" came and hit the scene.

Characters like Takamaru, Mach Rider, Muddy Mole, Sukapon, Bubbles, Tamagon, Balloon Fighter, Donbe and Hikari, the Prince of Sablé, Lip, Urban Champion, Hakkun, Sheriff (an arcade character, even), Diskun, hell even the Ice Hockey trio. Those are the ones that fit the older, well-understood definition of what a "retro character" was.

Using it for characters like Simon and Pac-Man never felt right to me. Like...Castlevania and Pac-Man still get games. Simon is no more a retro character than Marth is. Not to mention it's a category that used to pretty much exclusively mean first party characters, since the characters that would fit for a third party variant...wouldn't be the types picked for Smash to begin with, lol.

 

[Sucumbio]

Do you think the next Smash would be developed by Namco again, or would someone else be selected? How much would Namco not developing it affect the odds of Pac-Man and Kazuya returning?

. I hope so. They pretty much got the ultimate roster balanced though due to character design flaws some remain "bottom tier" but even then the spread is much narrower between the lower and upper tier characters. And having Tekken and Soul Calibur under their belt makes them pretty much an authority on fg mechanics, balance, etc.

But if they do get replaced I see Kazuya and Pacman getting left out unfortunately.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

This is something I genuinely think has been lost more and more in the greater discourse. During Smaah 4 it was generally understood that, like you said, a "retro character" had a very specific meaning: a first party character from a dead, usually-one-off game for the NES, SNES, or GameBoy. A character that was done and dusted by the time those crazy things called "polygons" came and hit the scene.

Characters like Takamaru, Mach Rider, Muddy Mole, Sukapon, Bubbles, Tamagon, Balloon Fighter, Donbe and Hikari, the Prince of Sablé, Lip, Urban Champion, Hakkun, Sheriff (an arcade character, even), Diskun, hell even the Ice Hockey trio. Those are the ones that fit the older, well-understood definition of what a "retro character" was.

Using it for characters like Simon and Pac-Man never felt right to me. Like...Castlevania and Pac-Man still get games. Simon is no more a retro character than Marth is. Not to mention it's a category that used to pretty much exclusively mean first party characters, since the characters that would fit for a third party variant...wouldn't be the types picked for Smash to begin with, lol.

My personal take is that "retro character" is actually fairly rare and only existed in Melee and Brawl in and . , and are hardware reps because they're representing a type of old hardware that was very important for Nintendo being able to compete in the gaming market.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

This is something I genuinely think has been lost more and more in the greater discourse. During Smash 4 it was generally understood that, like you said, a "retro character" had a very specific meaning: a first party character from a dead, usually-one-off game for the NES, SNES, or GameBoy. A character that was done and dusted by the time those crazy things called "polygons" came and hit the scene.

Characters like Takamaru, Mach Rider, Muddy Mole, Sukapon, Bubbles, Tamagon, Balloon Fighter, Donbe and Hikari, the Prince of Sablé, Lip, Urban Champion, Hakkun, Sheriff (an arcade character, even), Diskun, hell even the Ice Hockey trio. Those are the ones that fit the older, well-understood definition of what a "retro character" was.

Using it for characters like Simon and Pac-Man never felt right to me. Like...Castlevania and Pac-Man still get games. Simon is no more a retro character than Marth is. Not to mention it's a category that used to pretty much exclusively mean first party characters, since the characters that would fit for a third party variant...wouldn't be the types picked for Smash to begin with, lol.

I agree with this. If we're staring to consider Simon a retro rep, you might as well call Samus one becasue she was popular around the same time as him.

Tho I don't think that retro characters really need to be one off. If hypothetically Captain Falcon was a Ultimate newcomer, I think we could have called him a retro rep despite having like around 5 main games and having games after the SNES era.