Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[MrMcNuts]

Rayman and Rabbids are treated as their own thing by Ubisoft too. It's why they're entirely separated in Smash.

Though it does suck we didn't get a Rayman costume at least. :/ We certainly could've gotten one. I get he has kind of a poor presence in Japan, but still.

My theory is because the Mii brawler has moves involving elbows and knees (something the Minecraft miis even have) maybe they didn't want it to have inaccurate hit/hurtboxes and piss off the competitive scene.

Or it's like Crash and chief, a character they most likely knows is highly requested but oddly gave nothing to (except the base game spirit)

Here's to hopping he gets more than a mii though next game

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My theory is because the Mii brawler has moves involving elbows and knees (something the Minecraft miis even have) maybe they didn't want it to have inaccurate hit/hurtboxes and piss off the competitive scene.

Or it's like Crash and chief, a character they most likely knows is highly requested but oddly gave nothing to (except the base game spirit)

Here's to hopping he gets more than a mii though next game

I do remember a similar argument being brought up, but I don't remember the elbow part, so yeah, I could see that as a reason. It would have an invisible hitbox, which is a bad balance idea.

The lack of a Hat, though, is inexcusable. It's really odd Rabbids didn't get a full costume either, since they literally fit all 3 types just fine. There's probably some kind of gun/projectile weapon in a game to easily add for Gunner(besides the ones in Mario + Rabbids), a Plunger for said Swordfighter, and Brawler doesn't need anything. A lot of Mascot-like characters(who are animal-like) do often get Hats, though, so that might also play a role in it. ...Though having a gutted Mii Costume for Rayman might've been something that it's okay we didn't see(poor Isabelle and King K. Rool....).

 

[MrMcNuts]

I do remember a similar argument being brought up, but I don't remember the elbow part, so yeah, I could see that as a reason. It would have an invisible hitbox, which is a bad balance idea.

The lack of a Hat, though, is inexcusable. It's really odd Rabbids didn't get a full costume either, since they literally fit all 3 types just fine. There's probably some kind of gun/projectile weapon in a game to easily add for Gunner(besides the ones in Mario + Rabbids), a Plunger for said Swordfighter, and Brawler doesn't need anything. A lot of Mascot-like characters(who are animal-like) do often get Hats, though, so that might also play a role in it. ...Though having a gutted Mii Costume for Rayman might've been something that it's okay we didn't see(poor Isabelle and King K. Rool....).

Yeah I feel like Rayman is too expressive to be just a mii

Some think him not getting a mii doesn't look good for the next game, but I don't know how much merit miis have. I mean the only Smash 4 miis that got upgraded in ultimate were 1st party ones (k. Rool, Isabele and inkling) so who knows. Not to say none of them are getting upgraded next time, but just hard to know

 

[Geno Boost]

One thing no one seems to have brought up is the fact they clearly were acknowledging a lot of big Western names with Mii costumes in Ultimate. Assassin's Creed, Cuphead, Doom, The Elder Scrolls, Rayman/Rabbids, Undertale, Shantae, Fallout all got recognition without having a playable rep on the roster at that point. It's also quite telling that Bethesda, Ubisoft, and Indies definitely have known fanbases to the developers. I wouldn't doubt us seeing a decent amount of the roster be Western names that have a fanbase in the East next time around.

Also Tetris got spirit event during the DLC period despite not getting Mii costume since it won’t work

 

[SPEN18]

I like Raven Beak. But it is unfortunate that they only introduced him for one major appearance without an obvious future beyond that; I would've liked for him to become a new recurring villain in the series, following in the steps of Ridley. Hopefully, even if he doesn't return in the flesh, his fingerprints (clawprints?) will still leave a big influence on the series going forward. For now we'll just have to see how he ages with just the one major appearance.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I feel like it's more complicated to get Foreign Characters negotiated for because you have to comply with having to deal primarily with two Copyright Systems. For example, I'll use the character I think is next in line for the West Doomguy. Doomguy you have to deal with both the Lobbying Hell of American Copyright Law and the Stupid Strictness of Japanese Copyright Law, two systems that simply don't work together that well, so negotiating a Deal in both regions is an immense pain, especially since this stuff is vital Content Wise. There's also the Distance needed to Travel to Negotiate in Person, which is probably preferred given the Language Barrier. Also the Language Barrier is a huge mess due to how different English and Japanese are from each other, and all these factors in Combination is why we didn't get any significant Western Content in Smash until Ultimate.

 

[Geno Boost]

I feel a Metroid prime 4 character would overshadow any pick from Metroid Dread once that gets released by the time next smash game gets announced

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

 

[Geno Boost]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

Also counts as a villain
1. Deserves better moveset and didn’t have to get in before many other villains that are more deserving also not a fan of being on his clown car but I guess it make sense based on how he is being used in modern Mario games.
2. Not as much as it was before ultimate after all we got Which is more than what I expected we would get but I do think we should still get more in the next smash game.
3. Skull Kid, Black Shadow, Captain Syrup, Porky, Black Knight
4. CATS (Zero Wing), Space Invaders, Pyramid Head, Nightmare, Doh (Arkanoid), Fulgore, Diablo, Boshi
5. yes Arkanoid, Zero Wing, Silent Hill, Space Invaders, Killer instinct, Soul Calibur, Diablo
6. Having interesting moveset and having a big role in their games
7. Black Knight, King Boo, Fawful, Deoxys
8. Skull Kid, Black Shadow, Porky, Captain Syrup, Ganon
9. F-zero, Mother, Yoshi, Fire Emblem
10. Not sure it all depends on someone creativity and getting the right

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also counts as a villain

I'm not counting Zombie or Enderman. They are costumes that are not counted as their own characters. Otherwise I'd have to count stuff like Blood Falcon or Claus.

 

[Chuderz]

So somebody brought up the fairly common idea of Zack Fair being turned into a Cloud echo a page or 2 back obviously with the idea gaining some resurgence with the Crisis Core remaster coming out very recently. I will concede that if Cloud were to have an echo there's literally no one else to suit the role besides Zack. That being said does anyone else think it's just not something Sakurai would go for? Creative liberties aside it'd have Zack doing all of Cloud's canon limit breaks and an Omnislash Final Smash. I think if it were to work they'd have to give Zack his own Specials based on his limit breaks from Crisis Core and they'd have to be ones of the less "summon-y" variety on top of that so the pool would be limited no pun intended. I think his Up-Special could be retooled/reanimated version of Mythra's Up-Special though by making his Meteor Shot move from Crisis Core since they're similar moves.

 

[Idon]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

Damn that is waaaaaay too many questions to ask at once, you'll just end up with a wall of text as replies.
That said, I'll try to answer as many as I can, trying not to repeat.

I think they're a relatively good selection of characters. Villains are rarely as popular or as iconic as the protagonists to an even remotely close degree so the ones that got in are more than expected. I'd say the only odd one missing is arguably Dr. Eggman or Shadow, but he's a 3rd party character and those are rare enough, not even counting villains from the same franchise (literally just Sephiroth). Tekken is the only one that can get away with a "villain rep" because the entirety of the Mishima family faces are villainous murdering a-holes. I really don't think most other game franchises have leads like that.

It's a shame though that their movesets are generally pretty bad or at least very flawed with a few exceptions. Almost like they're referencing the exploitative weaknesses of a normal boss fight, but I wouldn't want to give credit where it isn't due with moveset viability being random as it is. As for representation goes, the only thing you really need to "do" is show off their charisma and unique capabilities like any other character so most are successful (not counting Dark Samus cuz yadda yadda echo).

As far as antagonists I think they could have gone for, Fire Emblem has 2 standout ones in the form of Black Knight and Edelgard but both have their own slew of issues like Black Knight competing with Ike, coming from an old game, and the whole thing with FE/Sword oversaturation and Edelgard representing a specific 1/3 routes in a game with split pathing. For Zelda, I would say they have a rather rich assortment of villains though they most often fall under "evil wizard working for Ganon." Ghirahim I think has the charisma and uniqueness needed for a fighter but SS's time in the sun has long passed. Most other antagonists I can think of either aren't really iconic or are iconic and simply are untenable as a fighter like Andross.

 

[Gengar84]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

Antagonists are usually among my favorite characters in their games. While I really like what we have so far, I’ll always support any more we can get. Here’s a few of my most wanted antagonists for Smash:

Magus (Chrono Trigger)
Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
Xemnas (Kingdom Hearts)
Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors)
Sarah Kerrigan (StarCraft)
Illidan Stormrage (WarCraft)
Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat)
Goomba (Super Mario Bros.)
Diablo (Diablo)
Jinx (League of Legends)
Jessie and James (Pokémon)
Final boss of Scarlet/Violet (spoilers for Pokémon)
Jena Anderson (Astral Chain)
Medusa (Kid Icarus)
EMMI (Metroid Dread)
Raven Beak (Metroid Dread)
The Black Knight (Fire Emblem)
Nightmare (Soul Calibur)
Wart (Super Mario Bros.)
Ganon (Legend of Zelda)
Dr. Eggman (Sonic)
Dr. Wily (Mega Man)
Kain (Legacy of Kain)

Some of these characters later became good over time or were never truly evil to begin with but all at least served as antagonists at one point or another.

 

[Perkilator]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

1. I do like the villain selection we have, but I do think it’s odd that Sephiroth got in before Dr. Eggman (not to say they can’t both be in the same game).
2. 15 is a good numbers, but I for one welcome even more than that.
3. Meowth
4. Dr. Eggman
5. TBH, I can’t think of any franchises that could get away with only a villain, unless it’s something like Kazuya where they fit the most naturally into Smash.
6. I guess if Ridley, King K. Rool and Sephiroth are anything to go by, it’s that their mere presence makes them look more like a threat, for a lack of a better term.
7. Raven. Beak.
8. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and suggest Jedah from Darkstalkers.
9. Sonic the Hedgehog, and I think you know where I’m going with this.
10. Doctor. Eggman. He, to me, feels like the missing villain, but for whatever reason, SEGA won’t give the OK to include him.

 

[Sucumbio]

... I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?

They're good. I'd like to think Koopa Trooper was more viable than Plant, but maybe next game.

2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?

we need more!

3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?

Raven Beak pls

4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?

Kefka

5.Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?

Hmm... Actually I can't think of any at the moment.

6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?

Sometimes a franchise has such a great villain that it seems a shame to ignore them as a potential smash fighter. I also personally prefer to play as the villain.

7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)

Raven Beak ... again. Dhoulmagus would be tight.

8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?

Kefka! He gets two nods in this line of questions also.

9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?

Sonic seems to be a major franchise with missing Dr. Eggman.

10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

I don't know that any character exists that's impossible to implement. But it's probably safe to assume it's more about the way they're implemented so for instance Kefka would probably not have his giant tower form from the end of the game and instead his mid game version except for Final Smash.

 

[UberPyro64]

Here, rate my theoretical Smash 2024-2025 roster with a theme of Nintendo vs. other companies (roster is 56-46 Nintendo to Third-Party characters).
It still has the most extensive roster in the series despite cuts. Nintendo-wise, I went with new characters that appeared in recent Nintendo Switch games from 2019 to the present for the most part. Only deviating with Waluigi due to fan demand. Third-Party wise, I still focused on Japanese companies like Nintendo has done in the past, but still added quite a few western characters. Of course, I also added quite a few characters I want personally as well as some major fan-requested characters. Obviously not meant to be entirely realistic. And I doubt we'd actually get a Smash game in 2024-2025. Thoughts?

 

[Gengar84]

I want to break down my list a bit at some point to more directly address each specific question regarding villains but for now, I’ll just focus on villains that could be the stand-alone rep for their game or franchise.

The most obvious of these is a fighting game character. Fulgore, Nightmare, and Sub-Zero have all played the role of an antagonist at one point and are among the most iconic characters in the game. Blizzard’s villains like Arthas, Diablo, and Kerrigan also stand out and are iconic enough to represent the series. Others like Lu Bu and Jinx are probably the most recognizable in theirrespective franchises. Finally, while a bit of a stretch, I can at least make a case why I feel like Magus is the best representation for the Chrono series as a whole while Crono is best for Trigger specifically.

 

[Mamboo07]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

1. Yes, I think they're great
2. Having more would be nice
3. Raven Beak, Hades, Dark Matter, Pokey, Ganon (Blue Pig guy), Kamek, Black Knight, and Black Shadow
4. Dr. Eggman, Nightmare, Albert Wesker, Mr. Bison, Diablo, and Spooky
5. Don't know
6. Them being actual threats or kind of look cool
7. Raven Beak again
8. Can't think of any
9. Yoshi, Mother, Fire Emblem, F-Zero, as well Sonic too
10. Don't have any

 

[osby]

Here, rate my theoretical Smash 2024-2025 roster with a theme of Nintendo vs. other companies (roster is 56-46 Nintendo to Third-Party characters).
It still has the most extensive roster in the series despite cuts. Nintendo-wise, I went with new characters that appeared in recent Nintendo Switch games from 2019 to the present for the most part. Only deviating with Waluigi due to fan demand. Third-Party wise, I still focused on Japanese companies like Nintendo has done in the past, but still added quite a few western characters. Of course, I also added quite a few characters I want personally as well as some major fan-requested characters. Obviously not meant to be entirely realistic. And I doubt we'd actually get a Smash game in 2024-2025. Thoughts?

I think there are some weird cuts here, like nuking the Zelda roster down to three characters despite keeping fighters like Daisy or Lucina. Similarly, I don't think cutting Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer and Miis were great choices but that's just me.

In terms of the third-party characters... you might've gone a bit overboard. A bigger focus on them makes sense but here, it feels there's a much greater addition of them compared to first-party fighters. Capcom, SEGA, and Square Enix parts in particular just look too much to me.

Though, there are some great additions like Tinkaton (as unlikely as it is), Ring Fit Trainee, Mio, and Alear.

 

[Arcanir]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

1. Of the characters chosen, they're overall a really good set as generally they are popular and iconic villains within their own series and generally are held close in the hearts of the fans of their franchises.
2. I feel Smash has made a big jump in that regard. With Smash 4 we had eight in total by the time DLC is done and Ultimate nearly doubled that and many of the options chosen are generally considered strong options from their respective franchises. There are still a few missing that could be added, but I wouldn't say it's lacking considering how many franchises Smash is pulling from and the choices we've been given.
3. Offhand, there's Medusa, Porky, Black Knight, Raven Beak, King Boo, Skull Kid/Vaati, and DJ Octavio. I'm not sure I'd say they're necessities, but they are characters that I think would add an aspect to their franchises that is not currently present in Smash or would just be fun to have in general.
4. Eggman is a big one, but a couple other options would be Dr. Wily or Dracula.
5. Nightmare from Soul Calibur as he's the icon for the Soul Series.
6. Importance to the series they come from, high popularity from leaving a strong impression on the players, and a hook that makes them stand out whether from their character, moveset, or other such traits.
7. I'll skip this one as I feel what I'd say would be redundant.
8. Same as above
9. Sonic and Fire Emblem. With Sonic it's a franchise that has managed to stick around in Smash for three games straight so it's already surprising for many that it didn't get a character, and of those options Eggman has become a standout. He's ingrained himself as a majorly popular and iconic villain and one that even casual fans would be aware of, so he's a character whose absence does feel notable alongside Tails and Shadow who are also wanted from the franchise. Fire Emblem is a strange one since knowing the circumstances we know why it doesn't have a villain, but considering its large cast it does feel like you could throw in an antagonist. The only issue is that very few antagonists are popular in the franchise, with only a couple like the aforementioned Black Knight and Edelgard really standing out enough that I'd say they'd be picked out.
10. The aforementioned Andross and Mother Brain are the only ones that immediately come to mind for me.

Delzethin did a video on Raven Beak.

I like the idea he's going for here, I'm not sure how it'd play out in practice but it would be a fun way to toy around with the traditional weaknesses of a heavy. The only critique I have would be the Final Smash as I think they'd choose something that is tied to the character's demise in that sort of fashion, unless they wanted to excuse it as a clone situation.

 

[UberPyro64]

I think there are some weird cuts here, like nuking the Zelda roster down to three characters despite keeping fighters like Daisy or Lucina. Similarly, I don't think cutting Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer and Miis were great choices but that's just me.

In terms of the third-party characters... you might've gone a bit overboard. A bigger focus on them makes sense but here, it feels there's a much greater addition of them compared to first-party fighters. Capcom, SEGA, and Square Enix parts in particular just look too much to me.

Though, there are some great additions like Tinkaton (as unlikely as it is), Ring Fit Trainee, Mio, and Alear.

I wanted to keep the roster around 100 characters. And have a theme of First-Party vs. Third-Party. While Nintendo would still have more characters, it would be a lot closer than it's ever been. So I made a lot of cuts to the First-Party side of things.

Yeah, I purposefully cut out alternate versions of the same character to keep the roster manageable (including the Zelda ones). I also cut all previous cut characters besides, Mewtwo (popular), Snake (icon), and Pokemon Trainer (a major aspect of the Pokemon franchise). Wii Fit Trainer gets replaced with Ring Fit Trainee. Though, their movesets wouldn't be the same I imagine. Mii's seem to be gradually getting phased out over time. I of course also reduced Fire Emblem by half before adding Alear as well. The remaining cuts were definitely harder for the most part. Basically taking out lesser popular characters (Incineroar isn't as popular as other Pokemon in Smash) or extra characters from lesser popular franchises (Palutena). But some cuts were also easy, like Dark Pit.

As for Zelda, I wouldn't mind adding another character or two. Was considering Skull Kid and Mipha, but I also want to see what Tears of the Kingdom has first. That being said, Zelda having less than Mario, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem makes sense based on what kind of franchises those are. Metroid only has one extra, which doesn't seem like a big deal either. Also, Nintendo and Sakurai only seem to want to rep Zelda with the Triforce Trio for some reason, but that can always change in the future.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Why would anybody want to cut Mii fighters? That's a big no-no.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Why would anybody want to cut Mii fighters? That's a big no-no.

Yeah, the Miis make a lot of money with their costumes.

They aren't going anywhere unless the next console has no Mii Maker at all.

 

[Gengar84]

I’ve never cared for the aesthetics of Miis but I concede that they make too much money to cut them at this point. They’re also a good way to support characters that couldn’t otherwise make it in.

What I’d really love is a true character creator that allows us to make fighters that fit into the general Smash aesthetic. Something akin to WWE games or Soul Calibur. Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s ever going to happen due to the huge amount of work it would take to accommodate all the possible body types a character could have. It would also require a ton of costume and feature options to let us make whatever we want, which I don’t see happening either.

I do think the rest of the roster could use some DLC costumes in addition to the Miis at least. It always bothered me a bit that Miis were the only characters to get attention.

 

[Ivander]

I like Raven Beak. But it is unfortunate that they only introduced him for one major appearance without an obvious future beyond that; I would've liked for him to become a new recurring villain in the series, following in the steps of Ridley. Hopefully, even if he doesn't return in the flesh, his fingerprints (clawprints?) will still leave a big influence on the series going forward. For now we'll just have to see how he ages with just the one major appearance.

Pretty much the Sci-fi answer to, "How do we bring this character back?" We got a Ridley clone because of some of Ridley's DNA being on Samus' armor, Samus quite literally has Raven Beak's blood in her due to him being her Mawkin blood doner. Also, hallucinations, illusions, whatnot as well.

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

1. I think the characters chosen work very well, although I would consider Dark Pit to be more-so antagonistic than downright an antagonist. Sure, there are a couple notable ones missing like Dr. Eggman, but for what we got, I consider it good.
2. I wouldn't say it's enough nor is it necessarily lacking. I still think there are a good number of villains who could get into Smash Bros. and it wouldn't have any negative effect.
3. Medusa, Raven Beak, Dark Matter, Kamek.
4. Dr. Eggman and Shadow are pretty much the only ones I think have any big chance. Maybe Dr. Wily. But I can't see other notable 3rd party antagonists being looked at until their series gets a character or the characters more popular than them are in.
5. The only ones I know of that I would say have any chance of being represented by an antagonist at the start are Nightmare from Soulcalibur and Selvaria Bles from Valkyria Chronicles. Maybe Elden Ring if they choose one of the Gods rather than the Tarnished. Melania, Godfrey and Radagon come to mind.
6. Dr. Eggman has that relevance of being the Bowser to Sonic the Hedgehog. He's such a huge part of the franchise. Shadow is more along the lines of the Meta-Knight/Wolf/Vergil archetypes in which he's the most notable antagonist after Eggman and his abilities are similar to, but also rival that of Sonic.
7. Raven Beak, Magolor, King Boo, Hades, Edelgard if not for the fact that her popularity eclipses all the other FE antagonists.
8. Medusa, Kamek, Dark Matter.
9. Not really. Aside from Sonic, but the reasoning for why Eggman or Shadow aren't in isn't too far-fetched due to being 3rd parties.
10. Giygas and GLADOS.
    Giygas is easily one of the most notable Nintendo villains where even if you never played Earthbound, you more than likely have seen him or have heard mention of him. He's often high on the list of many Top 10 scariest video game things and even big Youtubers like Markiplier(who makes alot of mentions of Earthbound and has mentioned Giygas a number of times) and AVGN have mentioned him. But that said, hardly alot of people know of his original form from Earthbound Beginnings and know of him through his Earthbound form, which is a concept-less, eldritch-like form, that would be very hard to make a playable form of, if not for the fact that just the horror surrounding him would make it hard for him to get in regardless.
    GLADOS I would say is probably one of the most notable villains who can rival the popularity of Bowser, Dr. Eggman, Ganondorf and Sephiroth. But her true form is that of a machine that often looks like those concepts for a robot arm-like machine or whatever word I'm looking for and, as far as I remember, doesn't take any notable movable or playable form.
    Aside from those two, I guess Andross and Mother Brain also fit too, although Andross did get a full body look from Star Fox Zero IIRC.

 

[Chuderz]

Just want to drop my obligatory Mii support post since it's being discussed again.

Miis are great because they provide costumes that help expand representation significantly.

I also stand by their implementation being the correct choice and would not want a Mii fighter that's designed around incorporating Mii game references in their moveset.

I think if anything we should add some more templates with the 2 best ones I can think of being Mii Mage and Mii Ninja. I had some others in mind that are a little more niche like Mii Dancer or Mii Archer.

Finally I'd be fine with moving on from the classic Mii entirely if given an ultimatum. I think the Nintendo Switch Sports Miis would be a better direction to go in. Sure that wonky charm of the classic Miis would be lost but I think the tradeoff would be giving the Miis more mainstream appeal. I think what we think of as the charm of classic Miis is what turns people off so much about having their requested fighters be represented by a Mii costume in the first place. It feels like a discount representation because the Miis are so cheap and goofy looking. Having the Miis have more mainstream appeal would translate well to their implementation in other games they're featured in like Mario Kart too.

As far as representation for the classic Miis in Smash goes (should the game hypothetically make this switch to the NSS Miis) maybe a fun idea could be to turn the classic Mii into an assist trophy that does more Mii inspired moves. Have it so your classic Miis can appear as this assist trophy similar to how your Miis appear as Mii Swordfighter/Brawler/Gunner currently.

 

[Batkelley]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

1. I like all of them. The one that sticks out as a bit of an oddity to me is due to being the only "generic enemy" on the roster. Not that I have a problem with that, but it seems like a bit of a weird first choice for that type of character when there are more iconic enemies that could have filled that role, like a goomba or a koopa troopa for example. Nevertheless, I'm glad the plant is here, and I think it could set a good precedent for other similar characters to follow.

2. I feel like that depends on the size of the roster and the series which are represented. Obviously it makes sense to have more protagonists than antagonists, especially when many franchises only have one character, but if the roster continues to grow, so too should the number of antagonists.

3. As mentioned above, I would like to see more generic enemies/minions join the roster. As for more "major" antagonists, I feel like the Kirby series could use another character, and most of the viable options from that franchise either are or were antagonists at one point, such as Marx, Magolor, Galacta Knight, and even Bandana Waddle Dee. I think Zelda is also due another newcomer, and as far as antagonists go, I would say Vaati, Skull Kid, and Beast Ganon are all good choices. Other Nintendo antagonists that come to mind include King Boo, Porky, Fawful, Birdo, Captain Syrup, and of course Waluigi, if he counts. Dry Bowser could also make for a cool echo fighter.

4. I think Dr. Eggman is the most prominent one missing by far, but aside from him there's Shadow, Bass, Heihachi (if possible), Gruntilda, and Dr. Wily.

5. Off the top of my head, I can think of four: First, Nightmare from Soul Caliber, since he's basically the main antagonist of the series (technically it's Soul Edge, but Nightmare is the one wielding it in most games anyway), and he's pretty much the series' mascot, not to mention that Soul Calibur doesn't really have a main protagonist, with a different character seeming to fill that role in nearly each game. Second, Fulgore from Killer Instinct, although he may not be the main antagonist, he's still the face of the franchise, plus it's not really clear whether the main protagonist is Jago or Orchid. Third, Monokuma from Danganronpa, he may seem like an odd choice, being from a visual novel series full of wacky characters, including some very memorable protagonists, but I think he would be the best pick to represent the franchise, being the series mascot, the main antagonist, and potentially having an interesting moveset based of the various executions throughout the series. And fourth, in the extremely unlikely event of this series getting a character in Smash at all, Freddy Fazbear from Five Nights at Freddy's. I suppose Springtrap or even Circus Baby could work instead, but I think if they were to pick a character from this series, it should be the bear himself.

6. There's an argument to be made that the antagonist is the second most important character of nearly any story, since more often than not, they are the source of the conflict which drives the narrative. Additionally, it's fun to be able to play as a cool, powerful character who you normally only get to fight against rather than control. Personally, I like getting to see heroes fight against villains from other games, for example, setting up a team match where Mario and Link work together to defeat Bowser and Ganondorf. It's not quite the same when you have Mario and Sonic team up to fight Bowser and... Bowser Jr. I guess.

7. King Boo.

8. Dr. Eggman.

9. Sonic. Maybe Mega Man as well. Other series could certainly benefit from having their antagonists join, but they don't feel quite as necessary to me. Although given the number of Fire Emblem characters we have, it does seem a little strange that none of them are antagonists, but at the same time, I understand why that is.

10. The only one I can think of is possibly GLaDOS from Portal. I wouldn't exactly call her impossible, but since she's basically a big hunk of metal hanging from the ceiling, I'm not really sure how she would work.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I do feel that Miis are good consolation prizes just like what Sakurai said. Had it not been for Mii costumes based on Doom Slayer, Arthur, and Travis Touchdown, I would have never even played them. Recently, I even made one based on Ryuichi and Ryuji from River City since they have a spirit in Smash Ultimate.

 

[Gengar84]

I do feel that Miis are good consolation prizes just like what Sakurai said. Had it not been for Mii costumes based on Doom Slayer, Arthur, and Travis Touchdown, I would have never even played them. Recently, I even made one based on Ryuichi and Ryuji from River City since they have a spirit in Smash Ultimate.

I had a similar experience with Ike and Fire Emblem. If Ike hadn’t appeared in Brawl, I’m not sure I would have tried the series. It’s cool to hear that even Mii outfits can inspire people in the same way. Despite my personal disinterest in them, I feel that they’re worth it for that reason alone.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I had a similar experience with Ike and Fire Emblem. If Ike hadn’t appeared in Brawl, I’m not sure I would have tried the series. It’s cool to hear that even Mii outfits can inspire people in the same way. Despite my personal disinterest in them, I feel that they’re worth it for that reason alone.

Yeah, well in this case, it was Mii fighters themselves, as I have played the games that the characters come from before. The Mii fighters, though, I wasn't really that interested in playing but seeing them looking like certain characters did make me want to play them. It's closest thing to those characters having a playable representation.

 

[SPEN18]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

1. Most of them are actually really good choices. I am not a fan of the Koopalings, PP, Dark Pit, Sephiroth, or Kazuya but the rest are fine. I know you said no moveset considerations but I don't like the way the Koopalings tie down Jr. to the car and I would prefer Dark Samus to get some degree of decloning if possible.

2. The number is irrelevant to me. If there are worthy outstanding villains, then put them in. If no more outstanding villains make sense, then there's no reason to shoehorn more in just to get to a certain number or percentage of the roster.

3. There is a decent number: Skull Kid, Ghirahim, King Boo, Marx. Maybe DJ Octavio or the aforementioned Raven Beak. Mother Brain if it had a moveset. I don't think someone like Waluigi technically counts but he is rather "villainous." Hopefully I'm not forgetting anyone.

4. None, really. I think 3rd party franchises should basically stick to the one main character and that's all. Only exception is I'd be okay with a second Sonic character, but I prefer Tails for that, who is not a villain.

5. Not much that I can think of right now. Some people were floating the idea of Dragaux as the Ring Fit rep, I guess.

6. Well, recurring helps a lot, of course, but one standout appearance that people remember 20+ years later is also good (think like Skull Kid). Well-designed villains often drive the plot and, in their fights, have some really shocking abilities or appearances that make them especially memorable. The way a villain's final boss fight "feels" mechanically also has a lot to do with memorability.
To be frank, whether villains should get into Smash also depends on what franchise they're in. A franchise like FE, for example, has a lot of great options just on the "main protagonist" end so most of the villains just don't stand out as much. A franchise lacking a lot of standout protag or sidekick types, like maybe Metroid, might conversely have its villains stand out more as options. Also, the franchise/game usually has to be big enough to warrant a second rep beyond the main protag (and even then a lot of games have a secondary protag that might fit better than the villain as said second rep).

7/8. The ones in answer 3 that fit the description.

9. Not that I'm thinking of right now.

10. I mentioned Mother Brain above. I don't really think Andross is necessary at this point, given the state of Star Fox and the fact that I'd choose Krystal over Andross if SF did get a newcomer.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, well in this case, I was talking about the Mii fighters themselves, as I have played the games that the characters come from before. The Mii fighters, though, I wasn't really that interested in but seeing them looking like certain characters did make me want to play them.

I think the only Mii fighters I could really get interested in are the ones that could pass off as the actual character themselves and not just look like a Mii in a costume. Miis like Skull Kid, Bomber Man, and Sans are really good in my opinion. Despite FFVII being one of my favorite games ever, I never really had a personal interest to play as their Mii versions. At the end of the day though, as long as a lot of other people are enjoying them, I see no reason to cut them.

 

[SPEN18]

Pretty much the Sci-fi answer to, "How do we bring this character back?" We got a Ridley clone because of some of Ridley's DNA being on Samus' armor, Samus quite literally has Raven Beak's blood in her due to him being her Mawkin blood doner. Also, hallucinations, illusions, whatnot as well.

Yeah I was thinking in the back of my head about something like that. Hopefully they can pull something to make Beak return; it just doesn't seem super likely to me rn unless he remains very popular.

--

On the Mii Fighters, my ideal would be having one Mii moveset that encompasses what the Mii actually does in its games. But they make so much money off the customization+costumes that I don't think they'll want to get rid of them, unless the next console doesn't have Miis or any kind of successor to them.

 

[UberPyro64]

Alright, you all convinced me to keep the Mii's. I was a little wary of whether Mii's would remain post-Switch, but perhaps they will. The roster is now slightly bigger with 105 characters. And 20 cuts from Ultimate. Oh, and I added a random icon too.

 

[Ivander]

Yeah I was thinking in the back of my head about something like that. Hopefully they can pull something to make Beak return; it just doesn't seem super likely to me rn unless he remains very popular.

Well, I think Raven Beak's popularity will stick until the next big Metroid game, which currently right now is Metroid Prime 4. Metroid Dread is on the way to become the best selling Metroid title and right now, people definitely want content from Metroid Dread. Not just Raven Beak, but also Samus' new Suit, some gameplay changes to fit her gameplay style in Dread, not to mention a Final Smash change, a stage like Ferenia, etc. The demand is certainly there and even if Metroid Prime 4 gets alot more details later, I doubt Dread's impact will disappear lightly.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Alright, you all convinced me to keep the Mii's. I was a little wary of whether Mii's would remain post-Switch, but perhaps they will. The roster is now slightly bigger with 105 characters. And 20 cuts from Ultimate. Oh, and I added a random icon too.

Honest question. Why are Pyra/Mythra gone? I see no reason to cut them. Super popular in their franchise. Unique playstyle. Super popular competitively. Their cut makes no sense to me.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Speaking of villains, that brings up something I wanted to talk about.

Here's a list of antagonists we have in Smash.

Bowser
Bowser Jr. + Koopalings
Pirahna Plant
King K. Rool
Ganondorf
Dark Samus
Ridley
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Wolf
Mewtwo
Dark Pit
Wario
Sephiroth
Kazuya

That's 15 characters who could be considered antagonists in their home franchises. Keep in mind, several characters in this list have become heroic (like Meta Knight and King Dedede) or neutral (like Mewtwo, Wario ,and Dark Pit) in recent times. I have some questions for everyone?

1. Without regard to their movesets, echo status, or how their franchise has been treated in Smash, what do you think of the antagonists we have in Smash? Do you think the characters chosen are good? Do any stick out in a bad way?
2. Do you think 15 antagonists is enough? Are villains/antagonists something that Smash is lacking in?
3. Which Nintendo antagonists do you think should be in?
4. What 3rd party antagonists do you think should be in?
5. Tekken is actually the only franchise that is only represented by a villain. Could any other franchises get away with that?
6. Protagonists and heroes seem to be Smash's go to characters. What makes an antagonist so special that they should be also included? What gives them that "it" factor?
7. Of the antagonists we have, the far majority were created in the 80s and 90s. We only have three antagonists created after 2000 (Bowser Jr., Dark Samus and Dark Pit). What recent antagonists should be included (defining recent as after 2000.)
8. Conversely, what older antagonists should be included?
9. Are there any franchises where the lack of an antagonist seems strange?
10. And finally, what are some antagonists that you think are so important/popular/etc to be included but can't feasibly be made playable for whatever reason?

1, I think most of the antagonists we have are good rerpesentatives of the spirit of the character. The elephant in the room is Ganon, who is very much not a great representative of himself in the games. At best, he sells the fantasy of Ganon as this being of pure power, but even then given how Ganon does not really fight like this at all it is not a great showing. Outside of him though, I think everyone in Smash is fine.

2. I think that Smash could always use more villains mixed in to the new characters selected. Ultimate kind of spoiled us and beefed up the antagonist roster from Smash 4. I think just as Smash's roster continues to grow, so should the number of villains in it.

3. In terms of first party villains, it honestly is kind of complicated. Octolings you could consider I guess, but that is pushing it on the level of Meta Knight being an antagonist. I think the issue here is that most first parties already have their obvious big bads or rivals in Smash at this point. At least the active series. Outside of a Splatoon pick, King Boo, and Waluigi, what other active Nintendo series have viable villain picks? Zelda has its issues with one time characters being villains, Fire Emblem is probably off the table for a unique villain, Metroid has Raven Beak but his story seems to be over and Sylux's hasn't been told yet, and Xenoblade is almost certainly gonna choose a protagonist from 3. Franchises like Mother and F Zero are dead so i doubt they will get a new antagonist, at least a unique one. If you asked me what first parties I would say I would like to pick up the villain mantle, I got a few good unique ones. Skull Kid, Raven Beak, and Porky all come to mind and I would be emphatic for them. I just have reservations.

I think the better avenue here is echos or semi clones. Dark Samus in my opinion is the perfect example of this. She is a character that would likely never be in Smash without being an echo, but she does provide another cool antagonist. Doing things like the Masked Man, N/M, Malos. Medusa,Galacta Knight, or Dry Bowser all could be antagonists added as easy echo fighters that would fill a villain quota. You could also take something like the Masked Man or the Black Knight and do a Semi Clone instead as a low priority character. One idea I have seen fans toss around is grandfathering Ganon's moveset onto someone else and decloning Ganon. Something like a Black Shadow or even a Hades becoming a jacked up Falcondorf while Ganon becomes fucntionally a new character I would be over the moon for.

4. Eggman.

5.

OK but to elaborate, Eggman is clearly head and shoulders the pick here. He is easily the most iconic villain in gaming not playable in Smash. I know that there are some huge antagonists: Eggman is very iconic. Sonic also easily deserves a second character and Eggman would be a strong choice. I think the issue is that most of the franchises in Smash already have a strong choice for their second rep that is not a villain. Sure, you could do a villain for Megaman: if they did a second rep its Zero.

A few do come close. Riku for Kingdom Hearts and Jin/Heihachi from Tekken would meet some requirements for being an antagonist, but even then it is a bit of a weird position to be in. Riku has undergone his heel face turn almost twenty years ago now, while Jin and Heihachi often teeter towards being anti heroes or the lesser of two/three evils. But if Meta Knight can still count in 2022, I think those are cool. Riku would be sick. Iori Yagami also has a solid shot of being the pick for a second FF/KOF rep and he fits the bill of an anti hero very well. He also is cool to boot.

In terms of echoes, Shadow is the obvious pick imo. He's popular, relevant, and easy to envision as a Sonic echo. Outside of him, we have some reasonable choices. Roxas for example meets the bare minimum qualifications to be considerd an anti hero. Big Boss or Liquid Snake could be a solid Solid Snake echo. Maybe you could try to swing Aketchi as a Joker semi clone or echo, but that is a bit of a harder sell.

5. I think franchises with huge casts that have plenty of options actually could be reasonable to pull from in terms of unique villain reps. Something like Warcraft could do an anti hero like Illidan or a villain like the Lich King. League could easily pull Jinx as their pick, who especially in Arcane can be seen as chaotic neutral at best. Franchises like Killer Instinct, Danganronpa, or Soul Calibur can also have a villain rep as their first pick.

In terms of first parties, that well is kind of spent. Like, the only first party that is gonna get into Smash that could go with it's villain first is Draguax from Ring Fit.

6. I think it is the power fantasy of playing as a villain or thinking the character is cool. Take K. Rool or Ridley for example. The power fantasy of playing as a giant space dragon certainly helped him get into Smash. People also love the DKC games and K Rool is a nostalgic pick for them. It's stuff like that which would helps make people excited for a character or gives them that "it" factor.

7. First party wise, King Boo and if they count the Octolings are both reasonable picks that could get in. Third Party wise, I think Jinx has a real solid shot so I would not be shocked if they decided that she would be good as the face of League of Legends. Shadow the Hedgehog is also a reasonable echo they could do as an antagonist they could go with. I also mentioned Riku as a decent pick they could go with even if that is on shakier grounds as an antagonist.

8. Eggman, Iori Yagami, and Big Boss would both be great picks in this department on the third party side of things. First Party wise stuff like Skull Kid, Porky, Waluigi, Meowth (rip) all would be cool picks they could go with first party wise.

9. I think in terms of series currently in Smash, Splatoon is going to be the most shocking with its growth. Octolings and even DJ Octavio would be reasonable picks in that regard. It was not shocking in Ultimate, but in the Next Smash i think it would be shocking it neither of those two were chosen. Shadow would also be shocking to not appear with how much of a popular pick as an echo he is.

10. Andross and Mother Brain both are both cool, deserving picks that would be hard to make a fighter. Even if Mother Brain has that second form, she is known as the brain in the jar. They fit their roles as assist trophies.

In terms of third parties, GLaDOS and Portal are cool and influential, but she would not work as a fighter. Maybe a cool Portal stage would be neat to mess with.

 

[dream1ng]

Alright, you all convinced me to keep the Mii's. I was a little wary of whether Mii's would remain post-Switch, but perhaps they will. The roster is now slightly bigger with 105 characters. And 20 cuts from Ultimate. Oh, and I added a random icon too.

I don't really understand rosters like this. This wouldn't be them mostly starting over like they usually do, because they couldn't get to 105 characters if they did. But it's seemingly not just building off Ultimate either like it did with 4, because then why cut any characters that you could still legally obtain?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Should Assist Trophies need alternate costumes?

I mean. You can see them roaming around with a fancy outfit, but that's it.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Alright, you all convinced me to keep the Mii's. I was a little wary of whether Mii's would remain post-Switch, but perhaps they will. The roster is now slightly bigger with 105 characters. And 20 cuts from Ultimate. Oh, and I added a random icon too.

IDC what anyone says I love this roster