Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[LiveStudioAudience]

Its both amusing (and a little sad) that within a 48 hour period we had a vary Rayman Origins/Legends esque game revealed by Disney and that Rayman himself revealed as playable in a fairly major game.

Its like the universe will do anything except have an actual Rayman platformer come out.

 

[dream1ng]

This isn't just the regular spotlight though. Dude literally in a crossover with Nintendo's main mascot which not a lot of characters can pull off (Even Sonic, the main rival struggled to do this result in Olympics). All this does is to strengthen Ubisoft's connections with Nintendo even more than more with now Rayman in the mix.

It helps greatly too that this DLC was possible mostly due to fan demand with being implied in Soliani's interviews which Nintendo must've seen themselves.

I'm not saying it's a lock as Smash 6 is still a long time away but still, it does bode well for his chances.

The main issue is to keep on that momentum which the shaky part.

I don't want to be a downer, but this doesn't really open up any lines of communication that weren't already there. Ubisoft has been game and cooperative for Smash since 4, specifically with Rayman, and the Ubisoft-based M+R team is very different than the Nintendo-based team that decides Smash characters.

An unrelated crossover isn't going to be a particularly salient factor. Honestly the biggest thing Rayman needs is to get that Japanese popularity up.

 

[Chuderz]

Meh it helps Rayman's chances. I don't think there's really any disputing that. Congrats to Rayman fans. I enjoyed the old games back in the day and hen I was kid I was acutely aware that it was a VERY challenging set of games hahaha. I remember frustratingly turning my PS1 off to go outside and cool off hahaha.

I shall remain on team Sukapon though. Way better limbless choice I think. Represents the first Nintendo fighting game. Formerly held the world record for largest video game roster which would make an appearance in Smash very fitting. Both a retro and WTF/Left-Field type of character. Also first party. Using the Dark Samus philosophy of justifying an echo with a simple idle/movement change you could incorporate a whole litany of cast members from Joy Mech Fight to the point where you'd basically have a spiritual Joy Mech Fight 2 within Smash itself.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Regardless of the exact nature of the appearance, I think the fact that Ubisoft is using Rayman, at all, helps his chances.

Rayman is fairly close to a dormant IP, so any modern appearance helps.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I shall remain on team Sukapon though. Way better limbless choice I think. Represents the first Nintendo fighting game. Formerly held the world record for largest video game roster which would make an appearance in Smash very fitting. Both a retro and WTF/Left-Field type of character. Also first party. Using the Dark Samus philosophy of justifying an echo with a simple idle/movement change you could incorporate a whole litany of cast members from Joy Mech Fight to the point where you'd basically have a spiritual Joy Mech Fight 2 within Smash itself.

I mean these are all fair historical and legacy reasons for him being added but gameplay wise, and even recognizability if we want to go there, Rayman has just as much if not more going for him in those departments and that’s even without taking Rayman’s legacy value to Smash into account.

However, the fact that Rayman and Sukapon got thrown into a one or the other situation because they’re both limbless is incredibly silly considering that is literally the only thing they have in common. There’s no rule saying they can’t both be in and I’m not sure if Sakurai would look at the two and be like “welp, we can only have one limbless character so which one should we choose?” That doesn’t seem like his style.

Regardless the two of them could be differentiated because Rayman doesn’t really throw his extremities like Sukapon. While Sukapon could throw out his extremities and still move around a la Min-Min or even a Pyra Side Special, Rayman’s wouldn’t likely do the same. Even though Rayman doesn’t have arms or legs they are still very much a part of his body in a way. They don’t really go any farther than a 5 or so foot radius around him.

Basically, comparing Sukapon and Rayman is overall just silly.

 

[dream1ng]

Sukapon is also hindered by what's keeping Takamaru out, but even more so, considering he's Japan only and hasn't made the more recent appearances Takamaru has (Smash aside), nor did he receive a localized release on the VC. He used to be more requested than Takamaru, but that was a long time ago.

So unfortunately that character isn't getting in any time soon, even as a wtf choice. Rayman, at the very least, isn't marred by regional exclusivity.

 

[Dinoman96]

It's been said many times but the biggest thing going against Rayman is just the fact of how extremely little Nintendo's home country cares about him. They didn't even bother releasing some of his main titles like Rayman 3 there.

レイマン - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

Like, just look at how sparse his Japanese Wikipedia article here is lmao. Translation (using DeepL) of the Overview segment for anyone who's interested:

It was created by graphic designer Michel Ancel in 1992. The game has gained a certain level of recognition abroad, and a series of games has been consistently produced.

A prototype SNES version has also been developed, but it is different from the current version.

In Japan, the Rayman series was released between 1995 and 2001, but it did not gain much recognition in a market that traditionally does not accept foreign-made games, and as a result, the release of the Rayman series in the Japanese market was discontinued. In 2006, a new Rayman game was released in Japan, but the Japanese version was renamed "Rabbids Party" instead of "Rayman Raving Rabbids".

In 2012, "Rayman Origins" was released in Japan to commemorate the 25th anniversary of Ubisoft, the publisher of the game.

An anime featuring the Rabbids, who are characters in this series, is broadcast on the program "Kinda Terebi" [1][2].

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I could see Rayman as a base game inclusion ala Little Mac that the fandom back home is baffled by but is of no financial risk to the latter because there would be other newcomers they'd be interested in. As DLC? Eh, its a little trickier to imagine. Banjo-Kazooie feels like about as far as Nintendo's willing to go with a Western appeal character for downloadable content, and even those two were much more familiar to the Japanese audience than Rayman.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think one of the biggest reasons Crash took off as a huge Smash request is because he's actually one of the very precious few 90s Western mascots that actually had taken off in Japan. The original Crash trilogy was a huge success over there, with Crash 2 in particular being a million seller, and Crash 3 not far behind at around 900,000. The only other Western platformer series that made a dent there at the time were Rare's Donkey Kong games, and to a lesser extent, Banjo-Kazooie.

Meanwhile the likes of Spyro, Rayman, Gex, Croc, Conker, etc weren't exactly drawing crowds over there...assuming if they even got a release (the latter two series didn't, though I guess Conker at least had Diddy Kong Racing).

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd be alright with Rayman in Smash, he'd make a lot of sense since he's a platform character after all and his abilities would probably translate naturally into Smash therefore. Think his chances gone up considerably, and maybe a Rabbid is also in order as a package deal?

 

[JOJONumber691]

I mean, regardless of Japanese Popularity, or lack there of, the fact that Rayman could directly work with Mario automatically makes his chances of getting in higher. I honestly think Rayman's Chances are carried by probably being very easy to get, being very easy to Animate (literally limbless), and the fact that Rayman is getting into Sparks of Hope, potentially even working alongside the Main Mario Cast.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I don't want to be a downer, but this doesn't really open up any lines of communication that weren't already there. Ubisoft has been game and cooperative for Smash since 4, specifically with Rayman, and the Ubisoft-based M+R team is very different than the Nintendo-based team that decides Smash characters.

An unrelated crossover isn't going to be a particularly salient factor. Honestly the biggest thing Rayman needs is to get that Japanese popularity up.

This doesn't really counters anything I've said.

I never said it opened any new forms of communication, It just boosts the ones that were already. Different teams doesn't mean anything either when Nintendo themselves are the publisher overall for M+R and most likely gave this crossover the greenlight knowing the popularity he has that made this DLC a possibility even despite of lack of Japanese presence

If he was that note-worthy for him to crossover with their main mascot, what's stopping from crossover with Nintendo's other franchises? He already had made headway in 4 and Ult. 6 could his time to make the clutch

He's not a true-on luck but stronger connections from this crossover definitely does boost his chances, nobody can deny that.

I mean, regardless of Japanese Popularity, or lack there of, the fact that Rayman could directly work with Mario automatically makes his chances of getting in higher. I honestly think Rayman's Chances are carried by probably being very easy to get, being very easy to Animate (literally limbless), and the fact that Rayman is getting into Sparks of Hope, potentially even working alongside the Main Mario Cast.

^^^^This exactly.

All that needs to be done is the keep hold of this momentum until Smash 6 is which admittedly a tough task as that is at least a decade away.

 

[ceterisparibus]

Yea i'm sure rayman's invisible arms will not require any form of skeleton rigging for models and will just be held together by techno-wizardry programing. The budget will for sure be cut to half for that!

.....or maybe we can realize the character has minimal smash requests, have bigger and/or similar competition (lol rabbids, AC) and the fact that he's half-dead as a franchise for years.

 

[Wonder Smash]

In the end, what Rayman needs is more fan requests. One might can look at crossovers or some kind of collaboration that Nintendo has with a company and thinks this boosts up a character's chances but as we can see with companies such as Koei Tecmo, that's not always the case. It could but it's clearly not a sure thing as fan requests are. Sakurai has made that clear with the some characters and the ballot.

To me, the collaboration is just an indication that getting the character would could easy for Nintendo to do and I doubt Ubisoft would be deny wanting Rayman in the game, seeing how he was already both a trophy and spirit in this series. All there need to be is just requests and he could be a playable character next time.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah Rayman's always felt like one of those characters that's had a decent fan following but not really at the levels required that'd make Nintendo really notice him. Unlike say, Banjo & Kazooie or K. Rool or Mega Man or Sora. He feels akin to stuff like Phoenix Wright or Lloyd in that regard.

 

[dream1ng]

This doesn't really counters anything I've said.

I never said it opened any new forms of communication, It just boosts the ones that were already. Different teams doesn't mean anything either when Nintendo themselves are the publisher overall for M+R and most likely gave this crossover the greenlight knowing the popularity he has that made this DLC a possibility even despite of lack of Japanese presence

If he was that note-worthy for him to crossover with their main mascot, what's stopping from crossover with Nintendo's other franchises? He already had made headway in 4 and Ult. 6 could his time to make the clutch

He's not a true-on luck but stronger connections from this crossover definitely does boost his chances, nobody can deny that.



^^^^This exactly.

All that needs to be done is the keep hold of this momentum until Smash 6 is which admittedly a tough task as that is at least a decade away.

No, I extrapolated your post to the factors that may actually affect inclusion, because "knowing Mario" is certainly not one of them, as if Mario himself is the one handing out invitations. It's a simplistic view of what these collaborations really are: business deals. It doesn't matter if the characters know each other previously, they're not real, Rayman isn't calling Mario up to get him included.

What matters is the relationship between the companies. To that end, not only is the relationship between Ubisoft and Nintendo good, but I think this is the fifth time the Rayman/Rabbid IP and the Mario IP have crossed over (counting Smash). This may be the first time Rayman and Mario actually meet face to face, but it isn't actually breaking new ground in terms of company cooperation. The pieces in play have been in play for a long time.

And that's where the fact that they're different teams of course matters. If you had picked a different bunch of executives even just within Nintendo, Smash's DLC would likely look different, let alone a team at the Italian branch of Ubisoft. Different people have different values and bring different agendas to the table. Ubisoft putting Rayman in their crossover, and Nintendo not vetoing that addition has no bearing on the decisions of the Smash team. They're unrelated. If and when Ubisoft Milan gets to choose Smash's roster, I'd say we'd really be on to something.

Btw, Ubisoft helms the M+R games, not Nintendo. They're the dev and the publisher. It's their sub-series. Nintendo just covers Japanese publishing duties and provides oversight. Nintendo doesn't run point here, so their acceptance of Rayman is passive.

However, it's the optics of this crossover, the people thinking this is more meaningful than it is, which could lead to leveraging popularity for Rayman. Because popularity, unlike knowing Mario, is a real factor. But this is also not the most useful time for popularity, nor is that a factor Rayman was weak in anyway (Japan aside). If this helps his Japanese popularity, that would be the biggest positive force this game gives his chances.

I'm certainly not saying this hurts Rayman's odds. Ultimately, it's a boon. It's just not... as meaningful as people think. Like I said, the connections, the popularity, they were already in play. This is a feather in the cap of a character who already has merit. But it also doesn't remedy his shortcomings.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

A more cynical mind might suggest the fact that its taken until the third DLC pack of a sequel to a spin-off for Rayman and Mario to actually crossover is a sign of how interested Nintendo is in the character himself given that they could asked for it to happen sooner.

But Nintendo works in odd ways, and for all we know about the development of Mario + Rabbids, it could be something they might have actually wanted for some time but didn't have an ideal means to do till now (or more accurately when that third DLC comes out).

 

[dream1ng]

In the end, what Rayman needs is more fan requests. One might can look at crossovers or some kind of collaboration that Nintendo has with a company and thinks this boosts up a character's chances but as we can see with companies such as Koei Tecmo, that's not always the case. It could but it's clearly not a sure thing as fan requests are. Sakurai has made that clear with the some characters and the ballot.

To me, the collaboration is just an indication that getting the character would could easy for Nintendo to do and I doubt Ubisoft would be deny wanting Rayman in the game, seeing how he was already both a trophy and spirit in this series. All there need to be is just requests and he could be a playable character next time.

No, in the end what Rayman needs is a better presence in Japan. The Rayman leak was followed shortly by the announcement of the ballot and that gave him a very high amount of fan requests at a time that fan demand was paramount, but he still fell short.

His popularity has declined since then, probably in tow with his lack of releases, but it's not popularity which has been the prohibiting factor, it's his handily lopsided skew towards the west.

A more cynical mind might suggest the fact that its taken until the third DLC pack of a sequel to a spin-off for Rayman and Mario to actually crossover is a sign of how interested Nintendo is in the character himself given that they could asked for it to happen sooner.

But Nintendo works in odd ways, and for all we know about the development of Mario + Rabbids, it could be something they might have actually wanted for some time but didn't have an ideal means to do till now (or more accurately when that third DLC comes out).

That's also suggesting Nintendo was the impetus for which Ubisoft characters get included, despite them not running lead on the project, which seems unlikely. This probably came from Ubisoft themselves, this is their game.

 

[Wonder Smash]

No, in the end what Rayman needs is a better presence in Japan. The Rayman leak was followed shortly by the announcement of the ballot and that gave him a very high amount of fan requests at a time that fan demand was paramount, but he still fell short.

His popularity has declined since then, probably in tow with his lack of releases, but it's not popularity which has been the prohibiting factor, it's his handily lopsided skew towards the west.

Just having a better presence in Japan is not enough. He needs more fan requests, no matter what. Keep in mind, while he did have a lot of fan demand around the time of the ballot, he had some very stiff competition with the likes of Simon Belmont, Sora, Bayonetta, Dragon Quest characters, and probably many others that haven't made it into Smash yet. Even back during Smash 4, he was up against Mega Man and Pac-Man. So it's almost no surprise he still fell short.

As for what presence he does have in Japan, I honestly think it may be even better now with this crossover with Mario but still, fan requests trumps all.

 

[Diddy Kong]

A more cynical mind might suggest the fact that its taken until the third DLC pack of a sequel to a spin-off for Rayman and Mario to actually crossover is a sign of how interested Nintendo is in the character himself given that they could asked for it to happen sooner.

But Nintendo works in odd ways, and for all we know about the development of Mario + Rabbids, it could be something they might have actually wanted for some time but didn't have an ideal means to do till now (or more accurately when that third DLC comes out).

What is the connection between Rayman and the Rabbids again ? I forgot. Didn't the Rabbids originate in Rayman games or something like that ? Anyway, if that's true it's no real wonder they choose to have Rayman appear himself. Guess it goes hand in hand with having a sequel in the first place.

If Rayman is happening in Smash it could be because of this, but I still would expect a package deal with a Rabbid added too. Maybe a very specific Rabbid as the Mario one, or the Peach or Luigi one since they seem to be more popular ? Could be a nice joke character and at the same way an effective way to promote their characters in the case of Ubisoft.

I also don't think Rayman is the most popular choice, but he's a well known one, and a potential great business deal. I mean it could very well be his reason for inclusion in the end, a good business deal on both parts , knowing that both Smash and Rayman are popular namesakes for both parties involved to profit on.

Can't imagine he'd be a much hated pick, probably would be a rather neutral addition for most people.

 

[dream1ng]

Just having a better presence in Japan is not enough. He needs more fan requests, no matter what. Keep in mind, while he did have a lot of fan demand around the time of the ballot, he had some very stiff competition with the likes of Simon Belmont, Sora, Bayonetta, Dragon Quest characters, and probably many others that haven't made it into Smash yet. Even back during Smash 4, he was up against Mega Man and Pac-Man. So it's almost no surprise he still fell short.

As for what presence he does have in Japan, I honestly think it may be even better now with this crossover with Mario but still, fan requests trumps all.

Fan requests don't trump all because you can get in without being a fan request, and not all popular fan requests do get in. It's one route to inclusion, but it's very very difficult to get in as a third-party with such lopsided appeal. Let alone one that skews away from Japan. No one has done it yet. And no, Banjo was not this. Banjo's games were quite successful in Japan.

If he had a balanced presence worldwide he wouldn't need popularity so high it can offset being marginal in a crucial region. He could get in with high but not extreme popularity in the west, because he also had solid footing in Japan. Characters with global appeal are by far the most regularly selected third-parties.

With Japan not working against him, he wouldn't need to be a fan request. It could open up additional routes to inclusion, like being... a normal inclusion. While with demand, he needs to perform so well that he can peak the charts, and probably stay peaked for a while too, like most fan inclusions.

Also fwiw, I suspect Rayman did do better on the ballot than Simon and a DQ character, especially since both those series would've been split between different characters. Not to mention the west isn't going to help DQ's results. Bayonetta's placement is irrelevant since she was chosen prior to that, and Sora was ostensibly unobtainable until recently.

Rayman was very popular during the ballot, thanks to the trophy and leak giving him a ton of momentum, and it's not like that data got purged, it was used up until the very end of Ultimate. There was plenty of time to leverage his performance and include him.

The problem is you probably can't build up his Japanese popularity too much without games or Ubisoft marketing him better over there. Getting Japan on board is the ideal solution, but it's not realistic. So the only real recourse is to lean on popularity. But that's quite a tall order... so... good luck.

The competition for third-parties is no less stiff.

 

[Perkilator]

Man, I still remember all the hype around the possibility of Crash Bandicoot in Smash...

...and then Activision happened and made me feel bad for wanting him.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Man, I still remember all the hype around the possibility of Crash Bandicoot in Smash...

...and then Activision happened and made me feel bad for wanting him.

All we can do now is hope Microsoft can clean up that mess. Otherwise, our best bet would be to burn it all down and start over from scratch...

Though even then, Crash would have to compete with other MS reps for Smash. Granted, he has a few advantages over them, but still: competition is competition.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Rayman was very popular during the ballot, thanks to the trophy and leak giving him a ton of momentum, and it's not like that data got purged, it was used up until the very end of Ultimate. There was plenty of time to leverage his performance and include him.


The competition for third-parties is no less stiff.

He remained pretty popular during the ultimate speculation scene too. Showed up on the top 10 (sometimes 5) on almost all big polls (fan ran though of course).

Like you said it's mainly the lack of a Japan presence holding him back. Hopefully that changes with this Mario Rabbids dlc though!

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Rayman’s biggest hurdle is Nintendo’s homeland. It’s just not popular over there. However, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle was pretty damn popular over there so if Sparks of Hope follows suit and sells as much as the first game then hopefully at the very least it’ll give Rayman even the slightest bump over there.

Either way, this is good for Rayman fans. If he gets into smash it’ll be even better but that’s gonna be at least another year or three before we even find out.

 

[fogbadge]

this conversation has made me wonder who the most popular 3rd party choice for smash. anyone know?

 

[dream1ng]

this conversation has made me wonder who the most popular 3rd party choice for smash. anyone know?

I think going forward Crash, Chief and Geno will remain quite popular, though the latter lacks the reach of the former two. However, choices like Dante and Monster Hunter have Japanese demand as well (Crash's standing in Japan isn't what it once was). Overall I think a RE character will be popular, but the lack of consensus will prevent any from peaking the charts, though Jill will do best.

I think 2B will benefit from Square's ranks getting narrowed, the Embracer buy, and the Nintendo support. She is also one of the most popular Japanese picks along with Dante and MH. And I think you'll see a big boost in the demand for more Sonic characters going forward. Chun-Li will also probably do well.

And I think Sans will be the most requested indie.

So there's ten choices I think will carry on with high popularity into the next game. As for who is the most popular? With Japan, maybe Dante. Without Japan, maybe Crash or Chief.

 

[Chuderz]

So I recently got NSO again. I used to have it for the first year of release but decided against it after that initial run. I did it so so that I could more easily transfer my game data over using cloud saves because I decided to upgrade my Switch's storage. I know I could have done it without NSO but I actually wanted to play some games online again namely Smash. I also got it bundled with a digital copy of Animal Crossing so I actually got that game at a discount on my preferred release model (digital is especially convenient for Switch) so that was good.

I remembered Ultimate online being bad oh my gosh was this was an absolute ****ing disaster. First 2 games were literally just unplayable to the point of it being legitimate bull**** and not fun. So I went over to mess with my wifi just full on resetting it and all that. I even busted out my stupid Switch ethernet port thingy. I then hard reset my switch with all these things factored in just for good measure, no I don't think that was necessary but I wanted to make sure I felt like I put all the effort I could into fixing this issue.

First game I played was fine but the second game I played was a reintroduction into disaster mode likely from what I assume is based on my opponent's garbage internet connection.

There's no matchmaking preference for good connection and on top of that Nintendo won't even invest in proper online infrastructure. Wow what an absolute blemish on this game. If this is the supposed pinnacle of Smash then Smash is an absolute joke. I can't even believe this isn't talked about more and is more or less just casual accepted as typical Nintendo. **** them and their executive parasitic sack of **** leadership. This online is absolutely inexcusable and is blatant disrespect to their audience. Smash literally needs online to be replayable and after about 4 games into online after years away I don't really want to play anymore.

I don't even really see a point of Sakurai working so hard to get 60 FPS on this pathetic little device if this is what we get from the online. Oh well back to games with actual online instead of the facade of online like Ultimate has.

 

[fogbadge]

I think going forward Crash, Chief and Geno will remain quite popular, though the latter lacks the reach of the former two. However, choices like Dante and Monster Hunter have Japanese demand as well (Crash's standing in Japan isn't what it once was). Overall I think a RE character will be popular, but the lack of consensus will prevent any from peaking the charts, though Jill will do best.

I think 2B will benefit from Square's ranks getting narrowed, the Embracer buy, and the Nintendo support. She is also one of the most popular Japanese picks along with Dante and MH. And I think you'll see a big boost in the demand for more Sonic characters going forward. Chun-Li will also probably do well.

And I think Sans will be the most requested indie.

So there's ten choices I think will carry on with high popularity into the next game. As for who is the most popular? With Japan, maybe Dante. Without Japan, maybe Crash or Chief.

I appreciate the fullness of your answer

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I suspect with the popularity of MH Rise that a Monster Hunter fighter proper will be even higher up in requests in both regions.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

this conversation has made me wonder who the most popular 3rd party choice for smash. anyone know?

Crash, Doom Slayer, Master Chief, Ryu Hayabusa, and, of course Geno. Geno is probably gonna be the most popular on here. We’ll see though, his popularity was pretty waning on other sites.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Fan requests don't trump all because you can get in without being a fan request, and not all popular fan requests do get in. It's one route to inclusion, but it's very very difficult to get in as a third-party with such lopsided appeal. Let alone one that skews away from Japan. No one has done it yet. And no, Banjo was not this. Banjo's games were quite successful in Japan.

And there's a reason for that, a reason Rayman doesn't have.

Fan demand is usually cited as a reason for many characters getting in, which makes more sense than some kind of presence in Japan, which is kind of unreasonable for a western character. It also in some ways puts an unnecessary limit on roster choices.

If he had a balanced presence worldwide he wouldn't need popularity so high it can offset being marginal in a crucial region. He could get in with high but not extreme popularity in the west, because he also had solid footing in Japan. Characters with global appeal are by far the most regularly selected third-parties.

With Japan not working against him, he wouldn't need to be a fan request. It could open up additional routes to inclusion, like being... a normal inclusion. While with demand, he needs to perform so well that he can peak the charts, and probably stay peaked for a while too, like most fan inclusions.

Also fwiw, I suspect Rayman did do better on the ballot than Simon and a DQ character, especially since both those series would've been split between different characters. Not to mention the west isn't going to help DQ's results. Bayonetta's placement is irrelevant since she was chosen prior to that, and Sora was ostensibly unobtainable until recently.

Rayman was very popular during the ballot, thanks to the trophy and leak giving him a ton of momentum, and it's not like that data got purged, it was used up until the very end of Ultimate. There was plenty of time to leverage his performance and include him.

The problem is you probably can't build up his Japanese popularity too much without games or Ubisoft marketing him better over there. Getting Japan on board is the ideal solution, but it's not realistic. So the only real recourse is to lean on popularity. But that's quite a tall order... so... good luck.

The competition for third-parties is no less stiff.

Being that he is a western character, having a balanced presence in Japan that he doesn't need fan request is very unlikely and is very unreasonable to expect him to have that at this point. Unlike Banjo, he doesn't have the backing of Nintendo, and unlike Crash, he was never a mascot of a Japanese console. The best Rayman has is his company's collaborations with Nintendo. So in the end, all he really has is fan support. I mean, he's a western character, so he's going to need that. With enough of that, Nintendo and Sakurai would surely take notice.

I remember Rayman being talked about a lot during the ballot but while the idea had been brought up a lot, it doesn't necessarily mean that he did so well in the ballot. When it comes to discussion about iconic characters, Rayman always fell short in that subject. You brought up the trophy and leak but characters like Simon didn't need that and he remained a constant talk leading all the way up to his own leak and eventual reveal. And during the time Ultimate was released, Rayman was barely even brought up once he was revealed to be a spirit.

So at this point, this recent appearance (and many more if they happen) can help bring more support, then I think that would be good enough for Rayman. Having a balance presence in Japan? That's kind of out of the question.

this conversation has made me wonder who the most popular 3rd party choice for smash. anyone know?

There's probably a lot of popular choices but Ryu Hayabusa is definitely one of them.

 

[Gengar84]

I feel like Geno probably isn’t quite as popular with the general casual Smash fanbase as he is among hardcore fans here. He’s definitely popular enough to have gotten a Mii outfit in two games so he’s not out of the question but I’d personally put a few other characters above him in terms of general appeal and hype.

I feel like we are probably overlooking a few characters that don’t get discussed very often around here but have a ton going for them. First is Jinx from League of Legends/Arcane. LoL was already a hugely popular franchise and now has games on the Switch but has greatly expanded its mainstream appeal with its Netflix show, Arcane. I personally never knew much about LoL but I absolutely loved Arcane and might want to try the RPGs now.

The second is Dr. Eggman/Robotnik or Knuckles. Sonic’s reveal was a huge deal in Brawl and I believe the series is more than worthy of a second character. Finally, the Sonic movies are a big success and I feel rejuvenated a lot of interest in the series. Jim Carey did a phenomenal job in his role as Robotnik so now would be a great time to bring him in while interest in the character is at its highest in years.

Finally, Zero from Mega Man X is another sleeper. Like Geno, Zero has also had a Mii outfit but he has also had an Assist Trophy on top of that. Not many third party characters have both a Mii outfit and an Assist Trophy and Mega Man X was a hugely popular game on the SNES. The character has remained popular since and even got his own spinoff series.

 

[MrMcNuts]

this conversation has made me wonder who the most popular 3rd party choice for smash. anyone know?

Crash, chief, Rayman, Dante, geno, Dr eggman are ones I probably see the most

 

[HyperSomari64]

If there are many "Most Populars", who are the "Least Popular" 3rd Party choices?
Bubsy? Lester the Unlikely? Anyone from Hyperdimension Neptunia? K.C. Munchkin?

 

[ZelDan]

If there are many "Most Populars", who are the "Least Popular" 3rd Party choices?
Bubsy? Lester the Unlikely? Anyone from Hyperdimension Neptunia? K.C. Munchkin?

If we're talking about least popular amongst Smashers that visit Smash forums or typically join online discussions of the franchise, I imagine it'd be Fortnite Jonesy

Characters like Bubsy and Lester the Unlikely are pretty much seen as "no chancers" by almost all Smashers I'd think, so nobody's going to seriously entertain them in the first place.

 

[Chuderz]

Idk I'd never take somebody's pick for Smash away from them. That **** is too personal and kind of oddly sacred among gamers haha. I have no attachment to Geno but I'd be happy for him to get in just so that Smash fans specifically would get something they've long been advocating for. I do think that while the Project M mod showed me the moveset potential it's still hard for me to be excited about him.

Besides that I think it's really cool how Chief has exploded in popularity among Smash fans. I've been carrying that flag since Brawl and it was never taken seriously. Even Cloud back then was needlessly dismissed. Actually Crash was always shot down as well with people citing the same irrelevancy argument they'd also eagerly throw at poor ol' Banjo's way.

I once argued with somebody over Kazuya/Jin having better moveset potential over Heihachi and that's why they should get in but they just couldn't let go of Harada supposedly wanting Heihachi over all else and the legacy/mascot status yada yada. Showed them. Sakurai clearly subscribed to my argument haha.

 

[DarthEnderX]

In the grand scheme there's no real wrong answer (like Genesis Aladdin vs. SNES Aladdin)

Genesis looks better. SNES plays better. Anything else is wrong.

Being needlessly rude towards people being excited doesn't make your opinions a fact, you know.

I know. Being right makes them a fact.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Characters like Bubsy and Lester the Unlikely are pretty much seen as "no chancers" by almost all Smashers I'd think, so nobody's going to seriously entertain them in the first place.

Wario Wario Wario would be pissed off after reading this. (He wants Bubsy in Smash so i trust him).

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Wario Wario Wario would be pissed off after reading this. (He wants Bubsy in Smash so i trust him).

leave me alone.