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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Dinoman96

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If your criteria for smash inclusion is as broad as exclusives on nintendo (bayonetta) to a couple of cute spinoff/sidegames (persona, tekken) to glorified cameos you didn't know until you actually played it (FF7), then maybe nintendo representation is so vague that it was never a decisive factor anyway (even the commonly brought up comment by sakurai stated it "as a courtesy").
Honestly smash would probably be duller if it adhered moreso towards heavily associated nintendo characters. Imagine trading cloud/snake/joker for the likes of black mage/shantae or even hayabusa.
Yeah like I said, I just don't think there's that many IPs without a game published on Nintendo hardware that would really get into Smash, anyways. For example, Darkstalkers is another IP that just recently lost its "Nintendo virgin" status as all of its main games are now available on Switch through Capcom Fighting Collection...but nonetheless I don't expect Morrigan to ever be playable in Smash due to Darkstalkers not really being an active or major IP in any capacity, nor are there that much requests for her.

At this point, unless Nintendo really is crazy enough to work with Sony for Kratos or something, it really does just boil down to Master Chief, and that's just assuming that skins in other games like Minecraft and Fortnite don't count.
 
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Sucumbio

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I thought it was chief... Sora was a surprise. Purple theory ah the good ole days.

I'd be down though I must admit I've never played Halo and dropped the TV show after 3 episodes. Doomguy is just as pleasing to indulge imho and I've actually played Doom extensively (PC though) so there's that.
 

SPEN18

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If your criteria for smash inclusion is as broad as exclusives on nintendo (bayonetta) to a couple of cute spinoff/sidegames (persona, tekken) to glorified cameos you didn't know until you actually played it (FF7), then maybe nintendo representation is so vague that it was never a decisive factor anyway
"Never a decisive factor":
I don't think you can say "never." Nintendo allstar appeal was a core component of the series from the beginning. And "never decisive" altogether I think you can only use to mean that being unimportant to Nintendo is not a strict disqualifying factor for the roster deciders; a factor can still ultimately be a deciding one or a scales-tipper, at least sometimes, even if it did not immediately eliminate the other candidates. It's highly likely that Nintendo importance or at least appeal to Nintendo fans specifically was indeed a decisive factor in choosing at least a handful of characters like Sonic or Banjo, in which case "never decisive" would be wrong. And outside of that, it's not even clear if DLC is just a different animal where guest add-ons are more emphasized. I think the best you might do is "has not in all cases been the most decisive factor."

smash would probably be duller if it adhered moreso towards heavily associated nintendo characters. Imagine trading cloud/snake/joker for the likes of black mage/shantae or even hayabusa.
I really don't see how the latter three are any "duller" than the former three. Unless maybe your barometer is completely calibrated by hype culture, and even then I'm not so sure.
 

dream1ng

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Since I've always wanted a Street Fighter vs. Mortal Kombat game for so long, it's really starting to dawn on me how much Smash could have been a good opportunity for that crossover to finally happen after all these years. The idea was mentioned before but fighting game characters for Smash was never really something I was interested in because you pretty much already have an idea of how they'll play since they already have a moveset.

But while I can picture the violence being some sort of concern with a straight up Street Fighter vs. Mortal Kombat game (it wouldn't matter either way to me), I'm certain Scorpion or whatever MK character in Smash could make it without the violence at all and it wouldn't be a problem. So it's a shame that it didn't even happen through another game like that.

At this point, with Scorpion and Sub-Zero apparently leaked through the datamines of MultiVersus, I'm almost hoping Ryu would appear as a guest character in that game since Street Fighter characters have been making so many crossover appearances in other games lately.
It will be nice that MultiVersus will finally put an end to the "Scorpion can't work in a toned-down game" complaints. Unfortunately it will now subject him to the baseless "he's already in another platform fighter" nonsense.

To be fair though, things probably aren't going to work out Smash-wise for any character that basically skips Japan.

With regards to 2B I really don't think a new game is enough to stop her at this point. I personally see her as approaching the realm of iconic video game characters if not there already and definitely see her in that way as far as female video game characters go. It's like Cloud. By the time he got into Smash there'd already been numerous sequels after his entry in the series before even counting all the previous Nintendo-era entries but he still got to represent the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole. I think of 2B in a similar way. I'd love to see her in the game and I think she deserves it. After Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Terra and Celes I'd say she's my most wanted female rep. I know the list is pretty long before her but at least it's all Square!
I would be shocked if 2B doesn't end up being the Cloud of her series. Her game is what brought the series out of fairly obscure territory and made it one of Square's most currently prolific. And she's really popular generally. Not that FF was obscure before 7, but you get it.

If your criteria for smash inclusion is as broad as exclusives on nintendo (bayonetta) to a couple of cute spinoff/sidegames (persona, tekken) to glorified cameos you didn't know until you actually played it (FF7), then maybe nintendo representation is so vague that it was never a decisive factor anyway (even the commonly brought up comment by sakurai stated it "as a courtesy").
Maybe. Again, we don't know for sure.

The point is, not having Nintendo representation boxes out so few candidates it really doesn't matter - especially because if skins count, it basically boxes out no one, aside from some already unlikely Valve and Sony characters.

Honestly smash would probably be duller if it adhered moreso towards heavily associated nintendo characters. Imagine trading cloud/snake/joker for the likes of black mage/shantae or even hayabusa.
To some extent this is true. Worth keeping in mind though, that if we didn't start getting more of the less associated characters, the fanbase wouldn't be that bothered by the Nintendo association, because that's how people thought it worked anyway.

Also interesting that every third-party we've received due to demand has had strong Nintendo association, whether Sonic, Mega Man, Simon, Banjo or Sora.

The fanbase would still be entirely enthused by getting mostly Nintendo associated characters so long as those characters were ones liked among the fanbase. Monster Hunter, Bomberman, Leon Kennedy, Phoenix Wright, Lloyd, Rayman, Travis, Shovel Knight, Hayabusa, more Sonic, and ones where ymmv like Doom Slayer and Crash, who may be less associated but still have a strong history of Nintendo support. Sort of like Ryu.

Yeah like I said, I just don't think there's that many IPs without a game published on Nintendo hardware that would really get into Smash, anyways. For example, Darkstalkers is another IP that just recently lost its "Nintendo virgin" status as all of its main games are now available on Switch through Capcom Fighting Collection...but nonetheless I don't expect Morrigan to ever be playable in Smash due to Darkstalkers not really being an active or major IP in any capacity, nor are there that much requests for her.

At this point, unless Nintendo really is crazy enough to work with Sony for a character of theirs, it really does just boil down to Master Chief, and that's just assuming that skins in other games like Minecraft and Fortnite don't count.
And tbh, just because Darkstalkers hadn't shown up on a Nintendo doesn't mean Morrigan hadn't either. She had. A few times. Same with stuff like DMC and Dante.
 

Wonder Smash

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It will be nice that MultiVersus will finally put an end to the "Scorpion can't work in a toned-down game" complaints. Unfortunately it will now subject him to the baseless "he's already in another platform fighter" nonsense.

To be fair though, things probably aren't going to work out Smash-wise for any character that basically skips Japan.
With Snake and Simon in Smash, that's already been debunked, so I wouldn't worry about that. Besides, like you said, this actually works in Scorpion's favor with the "tone-down" arguments people keep using against him.

As for the whole the Japan thing, that's just mere speculation. The truth is, nobody knows for sure that really is a true obstacle for an MK character, especially since the series has been released in Japan before.
 

dream1ng

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With Snake and Simon in Smash, that's already been debunked, so I wouldn't worry about that. Besides, like you said, this actually works in Scorpion's favor with the "tone-down" arguments people keep using against him.

As for the whole the Japan thing, that's just mere speculation. The truth is, nobody knows for sure that really is a true obstacle for an MK character, especially since the series has been released in Japan before.
Snake's predates third-parties even being in Smash, and yet we've seen it as an argument nonetheless. People still use it against Rayman and Lara Croft, and more generally as just being a "guest" in another fighter. Obviously it holds no water - it should die, but you could see people broach it pretty recently.

But the Japan thing is not "mere speculation", it's on record that they avoid characters who don't get localized outside Japan. The inverse is going to be true as well since it's the same principle. Plus Smash, understandably, treats Japan quite highly.
 

MasterCheef

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Honestly Fatal Fury and KoF isn't that big a piece of gaming history. It's not Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter (which we still don't have). I don't think that's why it got in. I think Sakurai liked it, it's popular enough in some places in the world, and it was cheap.
What if Smash Bros. 7 finally added non-video game characters, but in the form of Assist Trophies?
it would be a lot better than most of the assist trophies we have if Nintendo could get the licensing for the really good ones like Ichigo Naruto + more

I thought it was chief... Sora was a surprise. Purple theory ah the good ole days.

I'd be down though I must admit I've never played Halo and dropped the TV show after 3 episodes. Doomguy is just as pleasing to indulge imho and I've actually played Doom extensively (PC though) so there's that.
Halo MCC & Halo Infinite are both on PC

But the Japan thing is not "mere speculation", it's on record that they avoid characters who don't get localized outside Japan. The inverse is going to be true as well since it's the same principle. Plus Smash, understandably, treats Japan quite highly.
which is why i am soo depressed the Americas never / have not yet gotten the love in the form of ( Master Chief & Ahri for China ) for SSBU

At this point, unless Nintendo really is crazy enough to work with Sony for Kratos or something, it really does just boil down to Master Chief, and that's just assuming that skins in other games like Minecraft and Fortnite don't count.
Thanks.
 

Wonder Smash

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Snake's predates third-parties even being in Smash, and yet we've seen it as an argument nonetheless. People still use it against Rayman and Lara Croft, and more generally as just being a "guest" in another fighter. Obviously it holds no water - it should die, but you could see people broach it pretty recently.
People may use it but it was a dead argument from the start. That's why it shouldn't be taken seriously.

But the Japan thing is not "mere speculation", it's on record that they avoid characters who don't get localized outside Japan. The inverse is going to be true as well since it's the same principle. Plus Smash, understandably, treats Japan quite highly.
It really is just mere speculation. The whole thing about Japan is not supported by anything said by Nintendo or Sakurai. It's just something fans just assumed.
 
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dream1ng

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which is why i am soo depressed the Americas never / have not yet gotten the love in the form of ( Master Chief & Ahri for China ) for SSBU
Well there's a lot of options out there, and yes, those are two of them.

Incidentally though you managed to choose basically the last two potentially plausible series that have never been on a Nintendo system there. Not that it necessarily matters, just funny.

Though at this point, do you think we would get Ahri, or do you think we'd get Jinx? She's kind of the face now, isn't she.

People may use but it was dead argument from the start. That's why it shouldn't be taken seriously.
I agree but the point is that it's still probably going to happen. A lot of arguments that shouldn't be taken seriously seem to have trouble dying.

It really is just mere speculation. The whole thing about Japan is not supported by anything said by Nintendo or Sakurai. It's just something fans just assumed.
There's literally been explanations as to why we don't get (effectively) Japan-only characters from Sakurai. The same will hold true for the opposite, because it's the same reasoning. This one doesn't stem from the fans, this is something Sakurai has said.
 

Sucumbio

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Halo MCC & Halo Infinite are both on PC
Ohhh yeah?

Hmmm. Well I do need to to buy a game for my new build I just setup

xps8950, 1tb ssd, 64gb ram, Nvidia rtx3060 12gb, and Intel 12core i7

I dunno it is not a gaming PC I use it for batch file conversion and analytics which is why the regular 3060 not the Ti...

But anyway yeah I'll definitely consider getting it if it'll run...

We've also been looking at Witcher 3.
 
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Gengar84

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It will be nice that MultiVersus will finally put an end to the "Scorpion can't work in a toned-down game" complaints. Unfortunately it will now subject him to the baseless "he's already in another platform fighter" nonsense.

To be fair though, things probably aren't going to work out Smash-wise for any character that basically skips Japan.


I would be shocked if 2B doesn't end up being the Cloud of her series. Her game is what brought the series out of fairly obscure territory and made it one of Square's most currently prolific. And she's really popular generally. Not that FF was obscure before 7, but you get it.


Maybe. Again, we don't know for sure.

The point is, not having Nintendo representation boxes out so few candidates it really doesn't matter - especially because if skins count, it basically boxes out no one, aside from some already unlikely Valve and Sony characters.


To some extent this is true. Worth keeping in mind though, that if we didn't start getting more of the less associated characters, the fanbase wouldn't be that bothered by the Nintendo association, because that's how people thought it worked anyway.

Also interesting that every third-party we've received due to demand has had strong Nintendo association, whether Sonic, Mega Man, Simon, Banjo or Sora.

The fanbase would still be entirely enthused by getting mostly Nintendo associated characters so long as those characters were ones liked among the fanbase. Monster Hunter, Bomberman, Leon Kennedy, Phoenix Wright, Lloyd, Rayman, Travis, Shovel Knight, Hayabusa, more Sonic, and ones where ymmv like Doom Slayer and Crash, who may be less associated but still have a strong history of Nintendo support. Sort of like Ryu.


And tbh, just because Darkstalkers hadn't shown up on a Nintendo doesn't mean Morrigan hadn't either. She had. A few times. Same with stuff like DMC and Dante.
Scorpion was in Injustice and that game was just rated Teen. He didn’t have any gory fatalities or moves in that game. There was also a Mortal Kombat kid’s cartoon in the 90’s and the first two movies were fairly family friendly. I don’t really see any reason why Mortal Kombat characters couldn’t work in other non-M rated games.
 

dream1ng

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Scorpion was in Injustice and that game was just rated Teen. He didn’t have any gory fatalities or moves in that game. There was also a Mortal Kombat kid’s cartoon in the 90’s and the first two movies were fairly family friendly. I don’t really see any reason why Mortal Kombat characters couldn’t work in other non-M rated games.
I agree, but arguing tenuous points is a hallmark of the fanbase. People will make the same detractions about Doom Slayer as if glory kills are the essence of character and weren't a thing only added in the new games.
 

Wonder Smash

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I agree but the point is that it's still probably going to happen. A lot of arguments that shouldn't be taken seriously seem to have trouble dying.
That may be true but as long as there is something that disproves it, it really doesn't matter. It's a terrible argument in the first place.

There's literally been explanations as to why we don't get (effectively) Japan-only characters from Sakurai. The same will hold true for the opposite, because it's the same reasoning. This one doesn't stem from the fans, this is something Sakurai has said.
I've seen many of Sakurai's quotes and don't recall such a thing. I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to. Chances are, it could be something people are just misinterpreting.
 
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Lionfranky

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I agree, but arguing tenuous points is a hallmark of the fanbase. People will make the same detractions about Doom Slayer as if glory kills are the essence of character and weren't a thing only added in the new games.
The same should apply to realistic firearm argument.
 

Opossum

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I've seen many of Sakurai's quotes and don't recall such a thing. I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to. Chances are, it could be something people are just misinterpreting.
Sakurai's apprehension to add Japan-only characters is fairly well documented, especially by outlets such as Source Gaming. It's a well-known development tidbit that Marth and Roy were initially going to be removed from international versions of Melee until playtesters enjoyed them so much despite not being familiar with Fire Emblem. He also briefly considered adding Takamaru to Smash 4 before dismissing him, in large part, due to his obscurity in the west.

But the biggest point toward this is Lucas...Sakurai straight up said that if he had known initially that Mother 3 wouldn't be released in the west, he wouldn't have added Lucas in Brawl.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This was, undoubtedly, why Ness was prioritized over Lucas in Smash 4 as well.
 

fogbadge

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Sakurai's apprehension to add Japan-only characters is fairly well documented, especially by outlets such as Source Gaming. It's a well-known development tidbit that Marth and Roy were initially going to be removed from international versions of Melee until playtesters enjoyed them so much despite not being familiar with Fire Emblem. He also briefly considered adding Takamaru to Smash 4 before dismissing him, in large part, due to his obscurity in the west.

But the biggest point toward this is Lucas...Sakurai straight up said that if he had known initially that Mother 3 wouldn't be released in the west, he wouldn't have added Lucas in Brawl.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This was, undoubtedly, why Ness was prioritized over Lucas in Smash 4 as well.
you can’t deny that it is slightly undermined by the gusto with which he put in marth and roy
 

Opossum

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you can’t deny that it is slightly undermined by the gusto with which he put in marth and roy
It was literally planned for them to be removed from the western release. I brought that up in the post itself.
 

fogbadge

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It was literally planned for them to be removed from the western release. I brought that up in the post itself.
I know. But that doesn’t make it seem any less absurd. Especially when there was a character left out of the same game because they were Japan only.
 

Quillion

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I know. But that doesn’t make it seem any less absurd. Especially when there was a character left out of the same game because they were Japan only.
Sakurai is pretty hypocritical at times LBR. He wants to focus on making Smash accessible with concessions to deeper play, yet instead of adding new universal mechanics, they add individual characters with complicated mechanics while keeping the earlier part of the roster as simplistic as they always have been.

I'm not counting him managing to come up with a workable moveset design for Pac-Man, Villager, and Ridley as hypocrisy considering those required multiple tries, but still.
 

Sucumbio

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I usually take him at his word. As the games have evolved so too has the narrative surrounding him and his work. The best I can hope for is he stays attached to the next game.
 

Wonder Smash

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Sakurai's apprehension to add Japan-only characters is fairly well documented, especially by outlets such as Source Gaming. It's a well-known development tidbit that Marth and Roy were initially going to be removed from international versions of Melee until playtesters enjoyed them so much despite not being familiar with Fire Emblem. He also briefly considered adding Takamaru to Smash 4 before dismissing him, in large part, due to his obscurity in the west.

But the biggest point toward this is Lucas...Sakurai straight up said that if he had known initially that Mother 3 wouldn't be released in the west, he wouldn't have added Lucas in Brawl.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This was, undoubtedly, why Ness was prioritized over Lucas in Smash 4 as well.
This is all said for Japan-only characters but where was it said for the opposite? Keep in mind, MK games have been released in Japan before.
 
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fogbadge

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I usually take him at his word.
i don't think there's any harm in that. it's just I think maybe we shouldn't take it as concrete law. or at the very least take it with a little pinch of salt as he's not above contradicting himself.
 

Stratos

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A few months ago I read that Masahiro Sakurai tried to find someone to continue the Super Smash Bros. series, but he did not find anyone, although I do not think that is true, he will still find someone to continue it if not himself.
 

Dinoman96

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This is all said for Japan-only characters but where was it said for the opposite? Keep in mind, MK games have been released in Japan before.
Smash Bros. very rarely acknowledges western only video games. Take for example, StarTropics, which was a fully in-house NCL developed game...and yet Mike Jones has never even gotten so much as a sticker or spirit in Smash, because neither ST games came out in Japan.
 

Wonder Smash

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Smash Bros. very rarely acknowledges western only video games. Take for example, StarTropics, which was a fully in-house NCL developed game...and yet Mike Jones has never even gotten so much as a sticker or spirit in Smash, because neither ST games came out in Japan.
Well like I said, some of the MK games have been released in Japan before. Plus, MK is a much more famous series than StarTropics, so it's not even comparable.

The fact that Banjo and Steve are in the game shows that Western characters' chances are not as low as people think they are.
 
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Stratos

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I do not lose hope, more and more in a future game Super Smash Bros will appear characters from western games. After all, Steve, Banjo, Kazooie, Rayman, Doomguy and others. appeared in the series Super Smash Bros. as newcomers, spirits and Mii Costumes. So there is still hope.
 
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dream1ng

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This is all said for Japan-only characters but where was it said for the opposite? Keep in mind, MK games have been released in Japan before.
It's the exact same principle of excluding a major region in the familiarity of a character. Don't be purposefully obtuse in claiming it wouldn't apply inversely simply because the examples were Japanese. It's about excluding major regions.

And MK games haven't released in Japan for over twenty-five years, and when they did, they bombed. That won't alleviate the problem of familiarity which excludes them. MK just isn't a thing in Japan.

It's not going to make the character an appealing addition when they have a wealth of characters who not only show up both in Japan and overseas, but are actually prolific in both. Look at the third-parties we get, those are the ones who tend to get chosen. We're not up in here getting Sakura Shinguji.

The same should apply to realistic firearm argument.
Well depending on the firearm, that might genuinely raise the rating. Toning down a character is literally removing the parts that would aversely impact the rating, one of which might be the types of firearms. Obviously not all firearms. But maybe something like an assault rifle.

That argument isn't unsound, it just comes down to the type of firearm. Honestly most probably aren't prohibitive, and can be slightly cartoon-ified, but some might need to be omitted.

i don't think there's any harm in that. it's just I think maybe we shouldn't take it as concrete law. or at the very least take it with a little pinch of salt as he's not above contradicting himself.
This is a very strong trend. From intending to cut the JP only characters internationally to later deliberately excluding them, it's been a series-long habit of avoiding non-localized characters in excluded regions. Sakurai has gone back on his stances before, so nothing is ever completely written in stone, but not only has this maintained for a very long time, but the reason it's in place isn't something that will be "come around on" like the feasibility of a character. The west isn't suddenly going to become widely familiar with a JP exclusive character unless that character makes an appearance in their region.

Past that, it's not like we've run out of third-parties that appeal globally, which is what Smash heavily focuses on, for obvious reasons.
 

Dinoman96

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The way I see it:

Characters with global appearances = Highest chances of being made playable
Characters with Japan only appearances = Little to no chance of being made playable, but high chance of appearing as a spirit, AT, etc (i.e Takamaru, Lip, Sukapon, etc)
Characters with Western only appearances = Little to no chance of appearing at all (i.e Mike Jones, Scorpion, etc)
 

dream1ng

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Well like I said, some of the MK games have been released in Japan before. Plus, MK is a much more famous series than StarTropics, so it's not even comparable.

The fact that Banjo and Steve are in the game shows that Western characters' chances are not as low as people think they are.
You've gone from claiming there was no statement, to saying the statement was mistranslated, to saying it only applied to JP-only characters, to making false equivalencies between the Japanese reception of Minecraft to Mortal Kombat and fighting strawmen about just getting western characters in Smash.

How much further would you like to slide before you concede over the highly inauspicious position Scorpion is in when it comes to becoming a fighter in Smash? Because we can keep tumbling if you want.

I do not lose hope, more and more in a future game Super Smash Bros will appear characters from western games. After all, Steve, Banjo, Kazooie, Rayman, Doomguy and others. appeared in the series Super Smash Bros. as newcomers, spirits and Mii Costumes. So there is still hope.
No one is claiming "being western" is prohibitive. It doesn't help, but it's hardly a death sentence. It's basically not existing in Japan which is prohibitive. Don't conflate the two.

Reminder that the franchsie got referenced in High-Score Girl (in both the manga and it's animated adaptation).
And Takamaru has shown up in Samurai Warriors, NintendoLand (sort of), and has his game on the VC. Hasn't stopped Sakurai from excluding him on the basis of unfamiliarity. This is honestly not much at all.
 
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dream1ng

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i heard some western shilling so im just gonna say mortal kombat in smash is legit imo, mk11 is one of the top-selling switch games on the platform

any other detrimental factor i've already expressed in length before.

alright, i'll see you guys in another 6 months i guess :nifty:
Yeah but your points against the Japan thing are import or play on PC, which aren't factors Smash is going to value much given one doesn't count as officially existing there and the other is an unregulated niche marketplace for non-localized games.
 

Stratos

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No one is claiming "being western" is prohibitive. It doesn't help, but it's hardly a death sentence. It's basically not existing in Japan which is prohibitive. Don't conflate the two.
Excuse me, can you write it to me a little simpler? because I do not understand.
 
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