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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

White Frost

Not that icy
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i think game companies do judge success by sales rather than fan reactions
It makes sense. It's an objective number. Another is sales overall is how much money they expect to make back on average for the work done. A lot of games(franchises in particular) that die off can be critical successes, due to other factors(like a company going under).

Likewise, there's many games that sold decently well to us, but didn't actually get enough money back for the company. It's a bit complicated to a degree, but yeah, business is odd. For a unique example that isn't video game-related, if you remember that cool item you often bought(a consumable, like a soda or snack) over and over... yet no longer gets sold. Why? Cause not enough people actually were interested in it. It was mainly just you. Thus, not enough demand for the supply. Not enough success to say it made the money back to continue. Albeit, it's not a straight example of the issue, but does relate.

I hope that explains some of it.
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
6,182
If it means getting 5 or 6 more capcom rep and none of them is from Darkstalkers I would be disappointed.
Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
Dante [Devil May Cry]
Phoenix Wright [Ace Attorney]
Amaterasu [Okami]
 

Ivander

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
9,122
i think game companies do judge success by sales rather than fan reactions
I'm very aware.
Likewise, there's many games that sold decently well to us, but didn't actually get enough money back for the company. It's a bit complicated to a degree, but yeah, business is odd.

I hope that explains some of it.
Indeed, like in the case of Square Enix and Eidos' games like Tomb Raider and whatnot.
 

ceterisparibus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 11, 2019
Messages
122
I think it bears saying over and over again - the people choosing big 3rd parties are largely driven by the biggest and most easily recognizable icons instead of any vague historical precedence.

Nintendo history? Like mr-none-of-my-mainline-games-are-on-nintendo-platforms Joker? Especially with SMT with its exclusives on the 3ds and switch right there? Or Snake's inclusion coming off the release of MGS4? Wow, that game definitely did not concidentally benefit any opposing consoles to Nintendo, totally no sir.
Being the historical leader in so-and-so genres? Like how Cloud got in way before Hero? Or not a single FF1-6 hero got in before Cloud/Sephiroth despite leading said series? Or even Virtua fighter, the pioneer of 3d fighting being ignored in favor of Tekken?

Big franchises don't get prioritized...oh wait we got Minecraft. Best selling game in the world. And sephiroth.


For every "non-iconic" character to their genre gets included (even terry was the most recognizable one out of the entire SNK legacy, and lets be real there wasn't really much competition outside of mortal kombat whose chances were miniscule for many reasons), there's way more where smash always heads for the biggest franchises first. Because it's much easier to reach out to bigger audiences.

Like even if popular requests specific to smash is used as a side factor (tbh its not an insignificant factor), it's really telling when steve was considered way back in 2015, before the ballot was even concluded for Banjo to even be considered. And when you look at the dlc list only 2 out of 11 got in solely because of the ballot/came from popular requests specific to smash. Well, i guess miis can still be considered as representation and consolation prizes?
 
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Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
4,309
I think it bears saying over and over again - the people choosing big 3rd parties are largely driven by the biggest and most easily recognizable icons instead of any vague historical precedence.

Nintendo history? Like mr-none-of-my-mainline-games-are-on-nintendo-platforms Joker? Especially with SMT with its exclusives on the 3ds and switch right there? Or Snake's inclusion coming off the release of MGS4? Wow, that game definitely did not concidentally benefit any opposing consoles to Nintendo, totally no sir.
Being the historical leader in so-and-so genres? Like how Cloud got in way before Hero? Or not a single FF1-6 hero got in before Cloud/Sephiroth despite leading said series? Or even Virtua fighter, the pioneer of 3d fighting being ignored in favor of Tekken?

Big franchises don't get prioritized...oh wait we got Minecraft. Best selling game in the world. And sephiroth.


For every "non-iconic" character to their genre gets included (even terry was the most recognizable one out of the entire SNK legacy, and lets be real there wasn't really much competition outside of mortal kombat whose chances were miniscule for many reasons), there's way more where smash always heads for the biggest franchises first. Because it's much easier to reach out to bigger audiences.

Like even if popular requests specific to smash is used as a side factor (tbh its not an insignificant factor), it's really telling when steve was considered way back in 2015, before the ballot was even concluded for Banjo to even be considered. And when you look at the dlc list only 2 out of 11 got in solely because of the ballot/came from popular requests specific to smash. Well, i guess miis can still be considered as representation and consolation prizes?
Still though, while prioritizing super huge third party characters works for DLC, the base game needs a balance of big names and obscure nobodies.
 

Gengar84

Smash Master
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Dec 9, 2009
Messages
3,144
Actually I'd be fine with all nobodies. Tech Demo mode in next Smash pls Nintendo! Then again I'd be fine with all Names too but like I'll play whatever they come out with obv
Same here. I love plenty of characters, both big names and obscure. Obviously, I’d prefer my favorites to make it in but I’ve learned to appreciate whoever they decide to go with. I do think historical relevance to Nintendo should at least be factored in a bit more than it has but I don’t think the lack of history with Nintendo should disqualify a character from consideration. I just feel like it should be one aspect that could give certain characters an edge when coming up with a roster. I think it’s just one of several factors so other characters with less history with Nintendo could still make it with enough fan demand or general popularity.
 

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
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Hmmm



So if the president of Nintendo came to Mr. Sakurai and said I need you to put ______ in the next Smash game make it happen I don't care how,..... What's the ONE character you'd fill that blank with?.

Me? Not sure yet gotta ponder this a bit actually.

"
 

Gengar84

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
3,144
Hmmm



So if the president of Nintendo came to Mr. Sakurai and said I need you to put ______ in the next Smash game make it happen I don't care how,..... What's the ONE character you'd fill that blank with?.

Me? Not sure yet gotta ponder this a bit actually.

"
Hmmm…I think I’d go with the Battletoads because they’ve been my brother’s favorite video game characters since we were little kids. I personally love Magus and Zegram but I already got Sephiroth in Ultimate. It would actually make me happier seeing my brother get his favorite at this point than for me to get another one of mine. Not that I don’t also think the Battletoads would make for great Smash characters myself.
 
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Wonder Smash

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
867
Hmmm



So if the president of Nintendo came to Mr. Sakurai and said I need you to put ______ in the next Smash game make it happen I don't care how,..... What's the ONE character you'd fill that blank with?.

Me? Not sure yet gotta ponder this a bit actually.

"
You mean other than my MW?
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
4,309
Hmmm



So if the president of Nintendo came to Mr. Sakurai and said I need you to put ______ in the next Smash game make it happen I don't care how,..... What's the ONE character you'd fill that blank with?.

Me? Not sure yet gotta ponder this a bit actually.

"
OoT/TP Link as alts for each other.
 

Geno Boost

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
3,818
Location
Star Hill. Why do you ask?
I think it bears saying over and over again - the people choosing big 3rd parties are largely driven by the biggest and most easily recognizable icons instead of any vague historical precedence.

Nintendo history? Like mr-none-of-my-mainline-games-are-on-nintendo-platforms Joker? Especially with SMT with its exclusives on the 3ds and switch right there? Or Snake's inclusion coming off the release of MGS4? Wow, that game definitely did not concidentally benefit any opposing consoles to Nintendo, totally no sir.
Being the historical leader in so-and-so genres? Like how Cloud got in way before Hero? Or not a single FF1-6 hero got in before Cloud/Sephiroth despite leading said series? Or even Virtua fighter, the pioneer of 3d fighting being ignored in favor of Tekken?

Big franchises don't get prioritized...oh wait we got Minecraft. Best selling game in the world. And sephiroth.


For every "non-iconic" character to their genre gets included (even terry was the most recognizable one out of the entire SNK legacy, and lets be real there wasn't really much competition outside of mortal kombat whose chances were miniscule for many reasons), there's way more where smash always heads for the biggest franchises first. Because it's much easier to reach out to bigger audiences.

Like even if popular requests specific to smash is used as a side factor (tbh its not an insignificant factor), it's really telling when steve was considered way back in 2015, before the ballot was even concluded for Banjo to even be considered. And when you look at the dlc list only 2 out of 11 got in solely because of the ballot/came from popular requests specific to smash. Well, i guess miis can still be considered as representation and consolation prizes?
I think this is probably one of the reasons why indie rep is unlikely to happen soon it’s just Nintendo preferring large companies and see them as worthly of playable spot.
 
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White Frost

Not that icy
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Hmmm



So if the president of Nintendo came to Mr. Sakurai and said I need you to put ______ in the next Smash game make it happen I don't care how,..... What's the ONE character you'd fill that blank with?.

Me? Not sure yet gotta ponder this a bit actually.

"
Goomba. Cause that one is actually harder to implement than a lot of choices.

...Otherwise, my answer is Brian(who has enough potential for more than one moveset style).
 

Gengar84

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
3,144
Goomba. Cause that one is actually harder to implement than a lot of choices.

...Otherwise, my answer is Brian(who has enough potential for more than one moveset style).
I actually really want a Goomba for Smash. I’ve always really loved Goombas and I have a big plastic figure and a plush on my desk in my room. They actually have more moveset potential than you might think. There have been many variations of Goombas like a Paragoomba that can drop Minigoombas that swarm around their opponent. They also have the Kuribo shoe it could use for another special. Finally, it could even pull from other Goomba based characters like Goombella and Goomario and even have them as alts.
 
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MasterCheef

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 7, 2021
Messages
334
Hmmm
So if the president of Nintendo came to Mr. Sakurai and said I need you to put ______ in the next Smash game make it happen I don't care how,..... What's the ONE character you'd fill that blank with?.
I would have to with Ahri although my number 2 would have to be Master Chief
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
4,309
Goomba. Cause that one is actually harder to implement than a lot of choices.

...Otherwise, my answer is Brian(who has enough potential for more than one moveset style).
I actually really want a Goomba for Smash. I’ve always really loved Goombas and I have a big plastic figure and a plush on my desk in my room. They actually have more moveset potential than you might think. There have been many variations of Goombas like a Paragoomba that can drop Minigoombas that swarm around their opponent. They also have the Kuribo shoe it could use for another special. Finally, it could even pull from other Goomba based characters like Goombella and Goomario and even have them as alts.
If you want to actually play as a Goomba in a Smash game, the Crusade fangame has you covered.


Honestly, I wish Goomba was playable in more Mario spin-offs instead of being a hazard most of the time.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
4,309
Hmmm



So if the president of Nintendo came to Mr. Sakurai and said I need you to put ______ in the next Smash game make it happen I don't care how,..... What's the ONE character you'd fill that blank with?.

Me? Not sure yet gotta ponder this a bit actually.

"
I'll bite again. Now this is a pure personal preference with a total "screw it" to pleasing anyone else:

Bowser... reverted to his Melee animations.

Because really, his Melee animations are far superior to his uncanny valley, dumb wrestler animations from Smash 4 onward.
 

Stratos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
481
I do not have a problem with Ness, I like that he is one of the first 12 in the Super Smash Bros. series, but why did they not put Ninten from the beginning? Is it because the names Ninten and Nintendo are similar? However, I would like Ninten to come as a newcomer.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
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Messages
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I do not have a problem with Ness, I like that he is one of the first 12 in the Super Smash Bros. series, but why did they not put Ninten from the beginning? Is it because the names Ninten and Nintendo are similar? However, I would like Ninten to come as a newcomer.
I think it's because Ness is pretty much Ninten, but better in every way.

Really, the only potential thing Ninten can do that Ness can't is teleport out of battle.
 

dream1ng

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
736
Still though, while prioritizing super huge third party characters works for DLC, the base game needs a balance of big names and obscure nobodies.
It doesn't really though. They could fill base entirely with well-known characters, it's just that they opt for a few left-field picks in terms of magnitude, and they're not going to make those DLC because they wouldn't sell too well in comparison. But they don't have to include those kind of characters.

I’m not really thinking that we’re getting a normal direct at this point.
Don't lose faith yet.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
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Messages
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It doesn't really though. They could fill base entirely with well-known characters, it's just that they opt for a few left-field picks in terms of magnitude, and they're not going to make those DLC because they wouldn't sell too well in comparison. But they don't have to include those kind of characters.
I'd argue that, yes, they do need the obscure characters in the base game for the surprise factor.

Both because the obscure characters are, obviously, obscure, and because the big-name characters (newer ones especially) are pretty much animated the way their fans expect them (it's clear that the Smash team is a bit reluctant to repeat the Ganondorf/Wario situation of portraying a popular character against fan expectations; too reluctant in my opinion). Obscure characters grant the developers a lot more freedom to do whatever they want.
 

dream1ng

Smash Ace
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Messages
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I'd argue that, yes, they do need the obscure characters in the base game for the surprise factor.

Both because the obscure characters are, obviously, obscure, and because the big-name characters (newer ones especially) are pretty much animated the way their fans expect them (it's clear that the Smash team is a bit reluctant to repeat the Ganondorf/Wario situation of portraying a popular character against fan expectations; too reluctant in my opinion). Obscure characters grant the developers a lot more freedom to do whatever they want.
If you put leaks aside (and echoes, for the sake of brevity), people would've been surprised by every base game addition. Inkling because people weren't expecting the trailer to be Smash, Ridley because Sakurai had dampened hopes for him, Simon because, well, it's just always tough predicting third-parties given how many ways it could go, K. Rool because it gets forgotten how surprised people get when we actually get a fan favorite, Incineroar because the spot for the gen could've gone multiple ways, and Isabelle maybe less so, but a bunch of people still didn't believe she'd be feasible.

You don't need obscurity or no one talking about the character previously for them to be surprising. People were surprised by characters they had spent the last several years talking about, because we actually got them. The only times reveals weren't surprising was when they were pre-empted by a leak.

Go back to Sora, Sephiroth, Banjo or Steve and see whether people are surprised by big characters. People aren't so fixated on "oh, they added the blunderbuss like I thought they might" as opposed to "I can't believe they really added K. Rool!". Most people are much more ensconced in simply getting the character, whether they play as anticipated or not. And btw, there are elements of a moveset that are predicted, but implementation is never a foregone conclusion until we actually see how it works. Not like there was consensus on how the ink mechanic was gonna work beforehand, for example.

The surprise factor fades for both big names and odd ducks alike. It's the big names that move the product; look at the marketing. The alternatives are there for spice and variety, but the game can still flourish without them. Ultimate didn't even add that many.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
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Sep 17, 2014
Messages
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If you put leaks aside (and echoes, for the sake of brevity), people would've been surprised by every base game addition. Inkling because people weren't expecting the trailer to be Smash, Ridley because Sakurai had dampened hopes for him, Simon because, well, it's just always tough predicting third-parties given how many ways it could go, K. Rool because it gets forgotten how surprised people get when we actually get a fan favorite, Incineroar because the spot for the gen could've gone multiple ways, and Isabelle maybe less so, but a bunch of people still didn't believe she'd be feasible.

You don't need obscurity or no one talking about the character previously for them to be surprising. People were surprised by characters they had spent the last several years talking about, because we actually got them. The only times reveals weren't surprising was when they were pre-empted by a leak.

Go back to Sora, Sephiroth, Banjo or Steve and see whether people are surprised by big characters. People aren't so fixated on "oh, they added the blunderbuss like I thought they might" as opposed to "I can't believe they really added K. Rool!". Most people are much more ensconced in simply getting the character, whether they play as anticipated or not. And btw, there are elements of a moveset that are predicted, but implementation is never a foregone conclusion until we actually see how it works. Not like there was consensus on how the ink mechanic was gonna work beforehand, for example.

The surprise factor fades for both big names and odd ducks alike. It's the big names that move the product; look at the marketing. The alternatives are there for spice and variety, but the game can still flourish without them. Ultimate didn't even add that many.
I can give you a touché on that, but I still think Smash would be rather boring (more boring than it already is at this point IMO) if it didn't have the more obscure characters.

TBH, I'm starting to count Smash's decreasing focus on obscure characters as one of the factors in the series being on the verge of stagnation -- alongside having more or less the same core gameplay since Melee and having no alternatives to play as older characters in new ways.
 

PeridotGX

Smash Hero
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Hmmm



So if the president of Nintendo came to Mr. Sakurai and said I need you to put ______ in the next Smash game make it happen I don't care how,..... What's the ONE character you'd fill that blank with?.

Me? Not sure yet gotta ponder this a bit actually.

"
I think I'm going to go with PMD Grovyle for this, even though he's not necessarily my most wanted (certainly top five though). Bandana Dee or Kris Deltarune or whoever are characters I want too, but they already have good chances. No reason to burn this opportunity on them. Grovyle, on the other hand (and I say this with upmost regret), will never get in. If Bandana Dee is waiting for a die to land on a 6, Grovyle is waiting for you to predict the exact order of a deck of 52 cards. Maxwell from Scribblenauts is equally unlikely, but he has an advantage Grovyle doesn't: he's a Warner property, and as such could be added to Multiversus. He has a good chance for a platform fighter, even if it's not my top pick. This deal is literally the only way Grovyle could get in anything.
 

dream1ng

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
736
I can give you a touché on that, but I still think Smash would be rather boring (more boring than it already is at this point IMO) if it didn't have the more obscure characters.

TBH, I'm starting to count Smash's decreasing focus on obscure characters as one of the factors in the series being on the verge of stagnation -- alongside having more or less the same core gameplay since Melee and having no alternatives to play as older characters in new ways.
But to not be surprised by additions we get now that the parameters for inclusion are the widest they've ever been implies anticipating every somewhat discussed character, which in itself isn't possible. We're not going to get every character we talk about. In fact, we get very few. So it's always surprising just to see who actually makes it among the litany of candidates. Talking about a character and getting a character are very different.

Sure there are a different kinds of surprise, whether Piranha Plant or Sora and everything in between, but... the feeling of surprise itself is transient. At this point people are used to all those characters, let alone ones we got in a previous game that people were very surprised about, like WFT or Cloud. And then eventually it gets to the point that the surprising characters are just absolutely taken for granted like G&W or Sheik.

I'm not saying that obscure characters are worse, but more people are excited by the big names, and... I just think appealing to as many people as you can and picking additions whereby larger groups will be made happy is a good option. Cater widely, you have a good chance of pleasing more people.

And people laud the feeling of surprise... but what about the feeling of getting a character you really wanted? That's not very likely with the obscure choices, nor does it preclude surprise. Surprise fades either way, but when the thrill of the desired reveal subsides... you still have that character you really wanted.

If you're bored by a roster that gives us, y'know, the eight third-parties we got as DLC, I don't really know what to say. That puts you in the minority, most people dig that stuff. At least in concept if not every actual choice. Though Smash probably will change up its formula - less so to combat stagnation (stagnating all the way to what, 30 million units?), but more to offset inevitable cuts with some new hook.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
4,309
And then eventually it gets to the point that the surprising characters are just absolutely taken for granted like G&W or Sheik.
TBH, I'm actually at the point of taking the surprise of reveals for granted. It could be the reason why I'm now apathetic towards additional characters while my concern about Smash's future is now entirely on its other content and especially core gameplay.

I was honestly the most ecstatic about Piranha Plant being revealed, and that was because I thought that enemies would never be on the table; now the Mario spin-off tradition of usually having certain enemies playable was finally entering Smash.

I suppose one thing that would elicit a comparable reaction from me would be to allow characters already in as assist trophies as DLC while still letting them be assists.

(stagnating all the way to what, 30 million units?)
You sound like someone who would argue to keep the telegraph system around circa the 1870s based solely on how many people already use it.
 
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