Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

I’d go so far as to say that Ash Ketchum, Jessie, and James are probably the most iconic Nintendo characters not currently playable in Smash. I could see an argument that they might even be the most iconic video game related characters in general not already in Smash. I’m honestly not sure how Ash and Team Rocket stack up to gaming’s most iconic characters like Master Chief, Scorpion, Lara Croft, Arthas, or Jinx but I suspect they might be more recognizable than all of them.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Really, if we're talking about non-video game franchises that had games published by Nintendo, I'd rather vouch for having Hamtaro in Smash.

JUMP Ultimate Stars was published by Nintendo (There was a misconception that the game was published by Bandai), and it even was mentionen in Brawl 's Japanese Chronicle.
Goku Confirmed.

 

[dream1ng]

I’d go so far as to say that Ash Ketchum, Jessie, and James are probably the most iconic Nintendo characters not currently playable in Smash. I could see an argument that they might even be the most iconic video game related characters in general not already in Smash. I’m honestly not sure how Ash and Team Rocket stack up to gaming’s most iconic characters like Master Chief, Scorpion, Lara Croft, Arthas, or Jinx but I suspect they might be more recognizable than all of them.

Kinda strange to exclude Meowth from Jessie and James considering he's not only part of the trio, but actually shows up throughout the games, and, unlike those characters, originated in them, making him not an ineligible anime character.

 

[Gengar84]

Kinda strange to exclude Meowth from Jessie and James considering he's not only part of the trio, but actually shows up throughout the games, and, unlike those characters, originated in them, making him not an ineligible anime character.

Yeah, that’s true. I should have included Meowth in that. He was always my least favorite part of the trio but he is the only one that’s actually a video game character. I suppose it was just shorter to say say “Jessie and James” than “Jessie, James, and Meowth”. If Jessie and James ever did get into Smash, Meowth would obviously come along with them.

I think that’s what we’ve been debating today, what is technically considered eligible for Smash. Ash, Jessie, and James fit those corner cases we were talking about where Meowth is obviously eligible so it’s another reason I didn’t mention him with the others.

 

[Yamat08]

I’d go so far as to say that Ash Ketchum, Jessie, and James are probably the most iconic Nintendo characters not currently playable in Smash. I could see an argument that they might even be the most iconic video game related characters in general not already in Smash.

Technically, Ash is based off of Red. He may've grown to be his own thing by this point, but at the character's very core, he's kinda already in Smash.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Eligibility isn't established by merit, it's either something a character has or they don't. Batman is one of the most iconic characters in the world, but he's not eligible. Whether a Lego character who originated in a video game is eligible is uncertain. It's a grey area, and it comes down to those calling the shots.

Meanwhile a character from the most obscure video game title out there, if they began as a video game, is objectively eligible, even if they'll never actually get in.

It's safe to say that a character from a LEGO video game that was published by Nintendo is indeed eligible.

But more to the point, this is a third-party character with one somewhat successful game and a handheld prequel most people probably doesn't know exists. And basically no demand. That's barely sufficient for a first-party inclusion, but when it comes to third-parties, we're operating at the Kingdom Hearts, Minecraft, Tekken level. There's quite a disparity between that and Lego City Undercover. The two games together probably have sales of slightly north of 2 mil, which is even below Bayo.

We're talking about a character from a game with the LEGO name on it. LEGO has been a famous toy line long before even video games were around. When it has Nintendo involved, a successful game, along with a historical backing of a name like that, it doesn't really have to match those other games' success.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Technically, Ash is based off of Red. He may've grown to be his own thing by this point, but at the character's very core, he's kinda already in Smash.

Heck, Pokemon Trainer is compared to Ash/Satoshi and not Red in Smash 4's Trophy.

He's already got an extremely minor cameo.

Though that said, Ash and Red are massively different characters(and actually separate people even in the Anime). Just generally the same start, but that's kind of it. There's also more than one version of Red as is(the original Manga Red, more than one Game Red due to Pokemon Yellow, Pokemon Red/Blue, and FireRed/LeafGreen being basically different versions of how the games play out, and that's not counting Gold/Silver/Crystal or its alternate universe remakes). There's also another Anime Red, and even another Anime Ash(the new movies are an alternate continuity from the anime itself. That's assuming the regular movies are entirely in continuity with the normal anime. Some clearly are, but others are just very loosely connected by only at most having the same characters, but zero continuity nods. So far, only the original movie, Mewtwo Returns, and the original Lucario movie are blatantly part of the regular anime).

...So to say the least, there's a lot of variations of the character, heh.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I don't think I've heard any people, at least recently, mention any issues with Snake, especially regarding the "theme" of his series.

Earlier, somebody mentioned how they don't agree with Doom Slayer being in the game because it's a "bad fit" for the style of Smash and said that they don't like Snake and Bayonetta in it too.

It'd probably be easier if they just look at the NES games, when the graphics were a lot more limited and the game didn't look like a live-action Hollywood movie.

 

[dream1ng]

Yeah, that’s true. I should have included Meowth in that. He was always my least favorite part of the trio but he is the only one that’s actually a video game character. I suppose it was just shorter to say say “Jessie and James” than “Jessie, James, and Meowth”. If Jessie and James ever did get into Smash, Meowth would obviously come along with them.

I think that’s what we’ve been debating today, what is technically considered eligible for Smash. Ash, Jessie, and James fit those corner cases we were talking about where Meowth is obviously eligible so it’s another reason I didn’t mention him with the others.

I think there's a number of reasons we won't see those anime/manga characters in Smash. Firstly, they're anime manga characters. In the case of Ash, we already have Pokemon Trainer, so it'd be redundant anyway. But I'm also going to guess that TPC wouldn't sign off on one of their human characters hitting a Pokemon. They're already pretty sensitive to that angle. And that would relegate any human characters to a Trainer-like role anyway. And who are Jessie and James going to use, Arbok, Weezing and Meowth? Honestly, we'd probably just get Meowth without all that other stuff.

And if we were going to get Meowth, truthfully, it would've happened a long time ago.

But yes, Ash is undoubtably the most iconic non-eligible Nintendo character. And he's probably one of the most well-known gaming-related characters not playable in Smash. Though I would suggest Ms. Pac-Man, Master Chief, and that Space Invader sprite as right up there as well. And those guys are all eligible, which helps.

It's safe to say that a character from a LEGO video game that was published by Nintendo is indeed eligible.

Nintendo also published Ultimate Alliance 3, that doesn't make Spider-Man eligible. Nintendo publishing a game doesn't make that property gaming in origin, and the eligibility of characters created in a game of an established non-gaming property isn't clear cut.

We're talking about a character from a game with the LEGO name on it. LEGO has been a famous toy line long before even video games were around. When it has Nintendo involved, a successful game, along with a historical backing of a name like that, it doesn't really have to match those other games' success.

But you're completely creating the entire impetus Nintendo will feel compelled to represent a toyline in their video game about video games. That's an imperative which in all likelihood, won't arise. To lend Chase any sort of actual merit, you have to create a narrative wherein Nintendo wants to put Lego in Smash, despite zero evidence of them caring about non-gaming properties in the Smash context.

If they suddenly want to start putting properties that didn't originate as video games in Smash, I don't expect they'd even bother upholding the "must've debuted in a game" rule.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Nintendo also published Ultimate Alliance 3, that doesn't make Spider-Man eligible. Nintendo publishing a game doesn't make that property gaming in origin, and the eligibility of characters created in a game of an established non-gaming property isn't clear cut.

Spider-Man didn't come from a video game like Chase did, so that's not a good comparison.

But you're completely creating the entire impetus Nintendo will feel compelled to represent a toyline in their video game about video games. That's an imperative which in all likelihood, won't arise. To lend Chase any sort of actual merit, you have to create a narrative wherein Nintendo wants to put Lego in Smash, despite zero evidence of them caring about non-gaming properties in the Smash context.

If they suddenly want to start putting properties that didn't originate as video games in Smash, I don't expect they'd even bother upholding the "must've debuted in a game" rule.

What exactly would be the harm in Chase, a video game character, coming with content from the video game he originated from? In the end, that still falls into what you say Smash is supposed to be about; video games. It's doesn't matter if it has the name of a non-gaming property. Plus, I don't recall Sakurai or Nintendo saying that the series has to be of video game origin. Just the character. That's not to say Starkiller or Android 21 have a big chance but Chase does have a far better reason to be in Smash compared to them. He's a special case. Having the LEGO name is not an obstacle.

 

[Gengar84]

I think there's a number of reasons we won't see those anime/manga characters in Smash. Firstly, they're anime manga characters. In the case of Ash, we already have Pokemon Trainer, so it'd be redundant anyway. But I'm also going to guess that TPC wouldn't sign off on one of their human characters hitting a Pokemon. They're already pretty sensitive to that angle. And that would relegate any human characters to a Trainer-like role anyway. And who are Jessie and James going to use, Arbok, Weezing and Meowth? Honestly, we'd probably just get Meowth without all that other stuff.

And if we were going to get Meowth, truthfully, it would've happened a long time ago.

But yes, Ash is undoubtably the most iconic non-eligible Nintendo character. And he's probably one of the most well-known gaming-related characters not playable in Smash. Though I would suggest Ms. Pac-Man, Master Chief, and that Space Invader sprite as right up there as well. And those guys are all eligible, which helps.


Nintendo also published Ultimate Alliance 3, that doesn't make Spider-Man eligible. Nintendo publishing a game doesn't make that property gaming in origin, and the eligibility of characters created in a game of an established non-gaming property isn't clear cut.


But you're completely creating the entire impetus Nintendo will feel compelled to represent a toyline in their video game about video games. That's an imperative which in all likelihood, won't arise. To lend Chase any sort of actual merit, you have to create a narrative wherein Nintendo wants to put Lego in Smash, despite zero evidence of them caring about non-gaming properties in the Smash context.

If they suddenly want to start putting properties that didn't originate as video games in Smash, I don't expect they'd even bother upholding the "must've debuted in a game" rule.

Yeah, I don't really expect to see the anime characters either. I just thought I'd bring them up as they fit the discussion of characters with debatable eligibility for Smash. Since the characters are actually directly related to Nintendo themselves, I wouldn't say that it's completely impossible.

As far as not wanting to portray Jessie or James hitting a Pokemon:

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[dream1ng]

Spider-Man didn't come from a video game like Chase did, so that's not a good comparison.

The point is, unless they basically adopt the IP like Bayonetta, Nintendo acting as publisher is inconsequential for IPs that isn't theirs. It doesn't make them first-party, and it doesn't instill them with better chances for Smash. It certainly doesn't affect eligibility, that's dictated by the nature of the property.

Nintendo published one of the games of the guy in your pfp, and he is still conspicuously completely absent from Smash to the point it's a little strange.

What exactly would be the harm in Chase, a video game character, coming with content from the video game he comes from? In the end, that still falls into what you say Smash is supposed to be about; video games. It's doesn't matter if it has the name of a non-gaming property. Plus, I don't recall Sakurai or Nintendo saying that the series has to be of video game origin. Just the character. That's not to say Starkiller or Android 21 have a big chance but Chase does have a far better reason to be in Smash compared to them. Having the LEGO name is not an obstacle.

A narrative doesn't have to be harmful to be unfounded. The only reason to include Chase is to represent Lego, which entails Nintendo having the desire to showcase properties outside of gaming. They're not going to include the character because of his own resume. But that premise is built on nothing tangible, so as an outcome it appears quite remote.

Like I said, if they wanted to extend the spotlight past gaming series, they're probably do away with the gaming-only rule. Otherwise their ceiling is... Chase, Starkiller and Android 21. If you actually want to include Star Wars or Dragon Ball just say **** it and include Vader or Goku, you know?

 

[HyperSomari64]

The DC Super Hero Girls game was published by Nintendo, i guess Wonder Woman can join Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

The point is, unless they basically adopt the IP like Bayonetta, Nintendo acting as publisher is inconsequential for IPs that isn't theirs. It doesn't make them first-party, and it doesn't instill them with better chances for Smash. It certainly doesn't affect eligibility, that's dictated by the nature of the property.

Nintendo published one of the games of the guy in your pfp, and he is still conspicuously completely absent from Smash to the point it's a little strange.


A narrative doesn't have to be harmful to be unfounded. The only reason to include Chase is to represent Lego, which entails Nintendo having the desire to showcase properties outside of gaming. They're not going to include the character because of his own resume. But that premise is built on nothing tangible, so as an outcome it appears quite remote.

Like I said, if they wanted to extend the spotlight past gaming series, they're probably do away with the gaming-only rule. Otherwise their ceiling is... Chase, Starkiller and Android 21. If you actually want to include Star Wars or Dragon Ball just say **** it and include Vader or Goku, you know?

I agree with you that I don't see these types of characters as very likely to join Smash. I'm not going to call anything impossible but I wouldn't put money on it. Still, I'm totally fine with pretty much anything as long as the character is fun to play.

 

[SPEN18]

For the people that have problems with Snake being in Smash because of the theme of his series, have you ever tried looking at him as an NES character since that's the era he technically comes from?

Are the moveset and thematic/aesthetic depiction in Smash solely or primarily based on the NES appearances, though?

I also said this:

In terms of being bad fits stylistically, I would consider making an exception if the character was super significant to Nintendo and was at least able to be accurately represented in a family-friendly way.

Snake could maybe be toned down, even if his design would probably still look a bit out of place next to the rest of the characters. But they wouldn't go full-on retro with him I don't think, and even if they did it would kind of defeat the purpose of him being there to attract the audience he appeals to currently.

I still don't think he's significant to Nintendo.

And not that it should really matter when it comes to considering Snake for future Smash games, but I don't really like the way he got in, either.

 

[Wonder Smash]

The point is, unless they basically adopt the IP like Bayonetta, Nintendo acting as publisher is inconsequential for IPs that isn't theirs. It doesn't make them first-party, and it doesn't instill them with better chances for Smash. It certainly doesn't affect eligibility, that's dictated by the nature of the property.

Nintendo published one of the games of the guy in your pfp, and he is still conspicuously completely absent from Smash to the point it's a little strange.

I'm not saying it makes them first-party. But when you look at the fact that Nintendo published their games and has a LEGO Super Mario toy set, it's safe to assume that Chase's chances are at least decent. I feel he's a special case. Whatever problems he may for his chances, it's definitely not because of his game based on a toy-line.

Chase's absence doesn't compare to Hayabusa's, though. Now that definitely is strange. I don't think anybody expects Chase to be in and his absence isn't really a problem but Hayabusa? There's no excuses for that.

A narrative doesn't have to be harmful to be unfounded. The only reason to include Chase is to represent Lego, which entails Nintendo having the desire to showcase properties outside of gaming. They're not going to include the character because of his own resume. But that premise is built on nothing tangible, so as an outcome it appears quite remote.

Like I said, if they wanted to extend the spotlight past gaming series, they're probably do away with the gaming-only rule. Otherwise their ceiling is... Chase, Starkiller and Android 21. If you actually want to include Star Wars or Dragon Ball just say **** it and include Vader or Goku, you know?

If you're saying Starkiller and Android 21 would lead the way to Vader and Goku, that still doesn't compare to LEGO because what would Chase lead to? He's the main character of his own game, has his own story, has his own world... There's really no better rep than Chase and as long as he comes with content from his own game, then that's good enough. He doesn't have to represent LEGO as a whole. If you look on the official Smash Ultimate site, you see only Final Fantasy VII next to Cloud and Sephiroth. You also see only Bayonetta 2 next to Bayonetta. They have specific game listed next to them. This can be the same case for Chase. It doesn't have to be the whole LEGO brand. He can just represent LEGO City Undercover.

 

[Gengar84]

Alright, since Geno Boost brought up the list of the top grossing franchises on the previous page, it got me thinking about WarCraft again. I made a moveset for my favorite character, Illidan Stormrage, a while ago that I thought would be fun to share here like I have with the Battletoads and Sarah Kerrigan so far.

Illidan Stormrage

​

Art by Jeremy Sun​

Why Warcraft?​

The only Blizzard character I ever see brought up is Tracer from Overwatch. While she may be the most likely, I feel the other options always get looked over. Warcraft has a pretty big legacy in the history of gaming. The Warcraft franchise has left a really big impact on gaming history. The original Real Time Strategy (RTS) games were very popular back in the 90's and directly influenced several other huge franchises such as League of Legends and Defense of the Ancients. Since then, the Warcraft franchise has gone on to become just as influential in the MMORPG world with World of Warcraft. This was one of the biggest PC games for quite a long time and revolutionized the MMORPG genre. The franchise has even had a massively successful digital trading card game in Hearthstone which again revolutionized these. Even though Magic the Gathering existed as a paper card game long before Hearthstone, Magic the Gathering: Arena draws direct inspiration from Hearthstone in many areas.

Why Illidan Stormrage?​

I chose Illidan mostly because I love his design but he also plays a huge part in the games. There are several other great options for characters like Arthas, Thrall, Sylvanis, and many more. Illidan has a really unique look that would stand out from the rest of the Smash cast and has tons of really great moveset options. Illidan is a demonic night elf and one of the major antagonists in World of Warcraft. While he has played the role of an antagonist at one point, Illidan is more of a misunderstood antihero. He always tries to do the right thing but uses questionable means to that end. As a bonus, he also uses a really unique weapon and isn't just another sword user.

Moveset
​

Spoiler

Gimmicks and Traits

Metamorphosis - Illidan has a powerup state similar to Sephiroth’s One Winged Angel mode and Joker’s Rebellion guage. In this mode, Illidan transforms into his demonic form and gains additional jumps. He also is engulfed in an aura called “immolation” which deals slight damage to anyone near him.

Betrayer’s Thirst - Illidan’s glaive and melee attacks drain 15% health of the damage dealt (he drained 30% in his games but I feel like that would be a bit overpowered in Smash so I cut it in half).

By default, Illidan is a fairly fast and lightweight fighter despite his size. While his weight in his normal form is relatively light, he has a bit of added survivability due to his Betrayer’s thirst. His demonic form adds more weight and helps him utilize the draining effect of his attacks.

Weak Attacks

Jab - Illidan performs two quick horizontal slashes followed by a spinning more powerful attack. This represents Demon Hunter’s basic combo in WarCraft 3.

Forward Tilt - Illidan slashes his glaives forward in an X pattern.

Up Tilt - Illidan slashes upwards with his glaives similar to Cloud’s up smash.

Down Tilt - Illidan performs a low sweeping attack across the ground with his glaives.

Running Attack - Illidan leaps forward and stabs his glaives downward into the ground.

Smash Attacks

Forward Smash - Illidan throws his glaives forward and they spin in place similar to Pyra’s forward special

Down Smash - Illidan fires a beam of green energy from his eyes diagonally downward at the same angle as Sephiroth’s down smash.

Up Smash - Illidan creates a fire pillar directly in front of him around the same size as Palutena’s up smash.

Specials

Neutral special – Mana Burn – Illidan attacks with a green beam of energy from his hands at a medium range. This deals continuous damage similar to Bowser's flamethrower attack as long as Illidan holds the attack button.

Up Special – Flame– Illidan dives upwards and propels several fireballs diagonally downwards

Down special – Evasion – This is a lot like Lucario’s counter. Illidan evades an attack and teleports behind the opponent to strike them

Forward special – Sweeping strike – Illidan dashes forward and performs two quick slashes at the opponent.

Aerials

Neutral Air - Illidan fires a beam from his eyes diagonally downward. This is essentially Kazuya’s neutral aerial special while holding down.

Forward Air - Illidan creates a short range fiery explosion from his hand similar to Zelda’s up air but forwards.

Up Air - Illidan propels himself upwards in a motion similar to Kazuya’s up special but with less range and power.

Down Air - Illidan dives straight down head first at his opponent.

Grabs, Pummels, and Throws

Grab - Standard short range grab

Pummel - Illidan headbutts his opponent

Up Throw - Illidan flies upwards with his opponent and slams them into the ground similar to Charizard’s up throw.

Down Throw - Illidan slams his opponent’s head into the ground.

Forward Throw - Illidan performs a forward thrust kick similar to Ganondorf’s and Kazuya’s forward tilt.

Back Throw - Illidan tosses his opponent backwards.

Final Smash

Parasitic Shadowfiends - Illidan strikes his opponent and transitions to a cinematic cutscene where he summons an army of shadowy figures that deal massive damage to anyone caught in the attack as well as recovering some health for Illidan.

​

Alternate Outfits​

Illidan has some options for alternate outfits from Heroes of the Storm, although I think just the default model with palate swaps would work fine. Here are some examples:

Stage - The Frozen Throne​

Speaking of the Lich King, Arthas, I think the Frozen Throne area from the Icecrown Citadel would make an awesome stage regardless of which character is chosen. It is definitely much more closely tied to Arthas than Illidan but I think it is a great stage to represent WarCraft overall. I think it would be really cool to have Arthas sitting atop the throne watching the battle similar to Shao Khan in Mortal Kombat 2. Potentially, Arthas could occasionally rise up from his throne and launch an attack.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Are the moveset and thematic/aesthetic depiction in Smash solely or primarily based on the NES appearances, though?

It's not primarily based on his NES appearances but I think he's always had bombs. Though, characters tend to have moves from old and new appearances.

He also had a sneaking suit and headband back then too.

Snake could maybe be toned down, even if his design would probably still look a bit out of place next to the rest of the characters. But they wouldn't go full-on retro with him I don't think, and even if they did it would kind of defeat the purpose of him being there to attract the audience he appeals to currently.

I still don't think he's significant to Nintendo.

And not that it should really matter when it comes to considering Snake for future Smash games, but I don't really like the way he got in, either.

That's just the way I was able to accept it. At first, I wasn't really a fan of Snake being in Smash either because he and his games don't resemble anything Nintendo would make (I was like that with a lot of characters). But I can easily accept NES retro characters, so for me, if I can just keep the NES games in mind and forget about the PlayStation games, that would make it much easier for me to accept him in Smash.

 

[Quillion]

Sigh; I honestly wish people would stop trying to find loopholes in Sakurai's statements about not wanting non-video game characters in Smash... and start debating the merit of their exclusion in the first place.

Because honestly, while he may or may not have considered James Bond at one point, it actually was a good decision as late as Smash 4. Cheap tie-in games were a real plague back then. There actually were a lot of great ones around the 8-bit and 16-bit eras, but as video games got more expensive and time-consuming to develop to an acceptable quality, tie-in games started to fall more and more into shovelware during the Sixth and Seventh Generations.

But starting circa Batman: Arkham Asylum, licensed games slowly but steadily entered a new era of quality, all because these developers genuinely want to do the IP justice with a quality game instead of throwing something together for a paycheck. We're even at the point where licensed games can actually eclipse their source material in recognizability (which, for good AND ill, is CD Projekt's lifeblood).

You can actually make the argument nowadays that Sakurai's opposition to representing non-video game characters and franchises in Smash is outdated and disrespectful to this new era of licensed game quality.

I'm not saying that Sakurai should absolutely reconsider his exclusion of non-video game characters unrelated to Nintendo, but debating on whether it's a good decision nowadays is honestly a much more interesting discussion to be had.

 

[Wonder Smash]

It is a good decision. It's not like they really need non-video game characters. In the end, it's Sakurai and Nintendo's vision of the game and if it's good enough (in which it is), then there's no reason to change it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Quillion]

It is a good decision. It's not like they really need non-video game characters. In the end, it's Sakurai and Nintendo's vision of the game and if it's good enough (in which it is), then there's no reason to change it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You should know that the "if it ain't broke..." mentality just leads to stagnation, no matter where it's applied. How would you feel if Zelda never did away with the two-act structure, exposition companion, or recurringly-themed dungeons? How would you feel if 3D Mario never switches between linearity and exploration and only sticks to one formula? How would you feel if LEGO decided to rebuild its wooden toy operations after a catastrophic fire instead of pursuing its plastic interlocking brick business?

There's a reason why I'm pushing to add onto Smash's core mechanics, because the game is certainly good enough to sell, but ignoring the little physics and frame data changes between games, I've been playing Smash for years and am ready for something new to add to the core.

 

[PeridotGX]

Sigh; I honestly wish people would stop trying to find loopholes in Sakurai's statements about not wanting non-video game characters in Smash... and start debating the merit of their exclusion in the first place.

Because honestly, while he may or may not have considered James Bond at one point, it actually was a good decision as late as Smash 4. Cheap tie-in games were a real plague back then. There actually were a lot of great ones around the 8-bit and 16-bit eras, but as video games got more expensive and time-consuming to develop to an acceptable quality, tie-in games started to fall more and more into shovelware during the Sixth and Seventh Generations.

But starting circa Batman: Arkham Asylum, licensed games slowly but steadily entered a new era of quality, all because these developers genuinely want to do the IP justice with a quality game instead of throwing something together for a paycheck. We're even at the point where licensed games can actually eclipse their source material in recognizability (which, for good AND ill, is CD Projekt's lifeblood).

You can actually make the argument nowadays that Sakurai's opposition to representing non-video game characters and franchises in Smash is outdated and disrespectful to this new era of licensed game quality.

I'm not saying that Sakurai should absolutely reconsider his exclusion of non-video game characters unrelated to Nintendo, but debating on whether it's a good decision nowadays is honestly a much more interesting discussion to be had.

I'm just saying, if I told someone about a character that's been in beloved fighting games, had best selling PS4 and PS5 games, and has had a ton of other appearances in games (admittedly of varying quality), they would totally think that character deserves to be in. It's only when I reveal the character in question is Spider-Man that people say no.

 

[Quillion]

I'm just saying, if I told someone about a character that's been in beloved fighting games, had best selling PS4 and PS5 games, and has had a ton of other appearances in games (admittedly of varying quality), they would totally think that character deserves to be in. It's only when I reveal the character in question is Spider-Man that people say no.

Well, assuming Sony IE will give a crossover fighter another chance, Spider-Man would probably fit better in one meant for PlayStation history. Hopefully one that doesn't try too hard to be unique, though.

 

[osby]

I'm just saying, if I told someone about a character that's been in beloved fighting games, had best selling PS4 and PS5 games, and has had a ton of other appearances in games (admittedly of varying quality), they would totally think that character deserves to be in. It's only when I reveal the character in question is Spider-Man that people say no.

If you start looking at licensed games, it's not hard to find characters with a lot of successful video game appearances. If we're looking at them in a vacuum, there are other series that "deserve" to be in, like LEGO or Star Wars.

In the end, I don't it's fair to compare them with original video game franchises simply because of how much they depend on their main IP's success. I usually don't like floodgate arguments but seriously, there's no reason why a particular licensed game franchise character should be over others in Smash.

 

[Quillion]

If you start looking at licensed games, it's not hard to find characters with a lot of successful video game appearances. If we're looking at them in a vacuum, there are other series that "deserve" to be in, like LEGO or Star Wars.

In the end, I don't it's fair to compare them with original video game franchises simply because of how much they depend on their main IP's success. I usually don't like floodgate arguments but seriously, there's no reason why a particular licensed game franchise character should be over others in Smash.

There is the Witcher trilogy at least, which has come to eclipse Sapkowski's books as the Witcher IP's main event. It's definitely a lightning in a bottle situation though, as CDPR wanted to do the same for a futuristic TTRPG, and that fell flat for many reasons.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It's not primarily based on his NES appearances but I think he's always had bombs.

Just about everything Snake had in MGS was also in the NES game.

 

[fogbadge]

For the people that have problems with Snake being in Smash because of the theme of his series, have you ever tried looking at him as an NES character since that's the era he technically comes from?

my problems with him have got nothing to do with the "theme" of his game

 

[Diddy Kong]

my problems with him have got nothing to do with the "theme" of his game

They couldn't really have done that during the time of Brawl, if Snake where a Ultimate or Smash 4 newcomer he'd be more akin to what you'd like, maybe. I still think they did him well enough, maybe a few attacks using a knife would be better representation, but we haven't had a character with a knife untill Joker came around. Sakurai was hesitant giving Snake a knife due to cultural differences around the world, some cultures don't see much difference between a knife and a sword, others associate it more with crime and murder (this was from a Brawl blog somewhere, not the exact words but I can't find the link so bear with me).

 

[fogbadge]

They couldn't really have done that during the time of Brawl, if Snake where a Ultimate or Smash 4 newcomer he'd be more akin to what you'd like, maybe. I still think they did him well enough, maybe a few attacks using a knife would be better representation, but we haven't had a character with a knife untill Joker came around. Sakurai was hesitant giving Snake a knife due to cultural differences around the world, some cultures don't see much difference between a knife and a sword, others associate it more with crime and murder (this was from a Brawl blog somewhere, not the exact words but I can't find the link so bear with me).

I think you quoted the wrong post there

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Had Snake debuted later, I suspect they would have leaned more into the amalgamation with Big Boss and potentially would have had more focus on CQC elements.

 

[Geno Boost]

This may sound strange but if SMT gets a rep i want it to be Stephen he has been around since the first SMT game and he plays a big kind of rule for SMT series as a whole.
I want to see him end up in smash somehow as he got bored from all the weaklings in the SMT multiverse.
He can be both a boss and playable but i dont think its likely he would be the first rep for SMT due to him not being the mascot like Jack Frost or being the fan favorite pick like Demi-fiend but it would be very interesting to have him.

 

[Lionfranky]

You should know that the "if it ain't broke..." mentality just leads to stagnation, no matter where it's applied. How would you feel if Zelda never did away with the two-act structure, exposition companion, or recurringly-themed dungeons? How would you feel if 3D Mario never switches between linearity and exploration and only sticks to one formula? How would you feel if LEGO decided to rebuild its wooden toy operations after a catastrophic fire instead of pursuing its plastic interlocking brick business?

There's a reason why I'm pushing to add onto Smash's core mechanics, because the game is certainly good enough to sell, but ignoring the little physics and frame data changes between games, I've been playing Smash for years and am ready for something new to add to the core.

The difference is that exclusion of non-video game character is not even about stagnation at this point. There are still tons of video game characters to choose from. Are you going to say Marvel vs Capcom is stagnant because it won't accept DC characters? Just like that, Smash set concept on video game contents.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Are you going to say Marvel vs Capcom is stagnant because it won't accept DC characters?

Well...., kinda?
Marvel vs. Capcom can be a celebration to the history of comic books.

 

[Gengar84]

Well...., kinda?
Marvel vs. Capcom can be a celebration to the history of comic books.

I would actually love a general comic book crossover fighting game with Marvel, DC, and other characters like Spawn and the TMNT but at that point it becomes a completely different game.

 

[Quillion]

The difference is that exclusion of non-video game character is not even about stagnation at this point. There are still tons of video game characters to choose from. Are you going to say Marvel vs Capcom is stagnant because it won't accept DC characters? Just like that, Smash set concept on video game contents.

I agree that there's still a lot of room to grow even within the bounds of no non-video game characters.

I only said that since I get extremely annoyed with anyone who brings up "if it ain't broke...", which I find to be a horrible mentality no matter what it applies to.

 

[Jotari]

This may sound strange but if SMT gets a rep i want it to be Stephen he has been around since the first SMT game and he plays a big kind of rule for SMT series as a whole.
I want to see him end up in smash somehow as he got bored from all the weaklings in the SMT multiverse.
He can be both a boss and playable but i dont think its likely he would be the first rep for SMT due to him not being the mascot like Jack Frost or being the fan favorite pick like Demi-fiend but it would be very interesting to have him.

Well the obvious question there would be how is he going to fight? He does need that wheelchair, correct? I guess he could summon demons to fight for him a bit like Zelda's Phantom, only for every move, but that's really something any SMT character could do. Overall I don't really see much need for an SMT character specifically given we have Persona which covers the same elements, but if we were to see an SMT character then I'd rather they go the Dragon Quest Hero route and put a bunch of in the game under different costumes (I wish they'd done this with Castlevannia too). Most SMT protagonists are pretty interchangeable (which is probably why people like the Demi Fiend, because he is different, at least visually, from the other protagonists).

Funnily enough if they go with the very first Megaten character then it would be a non video game character as the series started as book, though Nakajima has been in a tonne of games.

 

[Geno Boost]

Well the obvious question there would be how is he going to fight? He does need that wheelchair, correct? I guess he could summon demons to fight for him a bit like Zelda's Phantom, only for every move, but that's really something any SMT character could do. Overall I don't really see much need for an SMT character specifically given we have Persona which covers the same elements, but if we were to see an SMT character then I'd rather they go the Dragon Quest Hero route and put a bunch of in the game under different costumes (I wish they'd done this with Castlevannia too). Most SMT protagonists are pretty interchangeable (which is probably why people like the Demi Fiend, because he is different, at least visually, from the other protagonists).

Funnily enough if they go with the very first Megaten character then it would be a non video game character as the series started as book, though Nakajima has been in a tonne of games.

This is something I really want to see in action since seeing someone in a wheelchair fighting in action would be really interesting especially knowing that Stephen is one of the strongest characters ever in fiction we saw him already fight but not animated yet.
The Hero route with alt skins could work if it’s gonna be Nakajima/Hideto/Kazuya/Aleph/Flynn/Nanashi since their main weapon is a sword but they would share the same summon.
I think Megami Tensei should get a pass that would let Nakajima appear in some way in smash despite the series origin I think he is worth mentioning since thats the starting point of the whole series.

 

[Jotari]

This is something I really want to see in action since seeing someone in a wheelchair fighting in action would be really interesting especially knowing that Stephen is one of the strongest characters ever in fiction we saw him already fight but not animated yet.

Well they managed to make Professor X work in one X-Men fighting game by literally having him do wheelies in the chair, so not impossible.

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The Hero route with alt skins could work if it’s gonna be Nakajima/Hideto/Kazuya/Aleph/Flynn/Nanashi since their main weapon is a sword but they would share the same summon.

Honestly I think I'd go the Ganondorf route and just have them show off their sword in a taunt. While I think the "too many anime swordsmen!" complaint is a bit overblown, there really isn't much unique SMT protagonists could do with a sword. What make SMT SMT is demon summoning (well unless your Digital Devil Saga), I think I would be fine with the demons being incorporated into every move and having the characters be something more like a summoner archtype. You have a interesting mechanic right there to fully fill out a moveset, a sword (and even the gun/magic) would just be a bit blasé.

I think Megami Tensei should get a pass that would let Nakajima appear in some way in smash despite the series origin I think he is worth mentioning since thats the starting point of the whole series.

Well that's kind of the entire flaw in the "no non video game characters" argument. The truth about Smash is that nothing is off the table, characters will get a pass if they deserve one. No, Sakurai isn't about to put Spongbob or Hank Hill in all willy nilly, but if there's a great character that happened to originate outside a video game then they will get a pass. Hell Dracula is already in the game as a boss! And as a literary character he's barely older than Mickey Mouse. Neigh sayers will counter with "That's not Bram Stoker's Dracula, that's Castlevannia's Dracula" when they are literally the same character acting the same way doing the same things. The same "that's not [non video game character] that's [video game version of non video game character]" logic could apply to pretty much any character someone could reasonably want because everyone has been in a video game. If Mike Tyson's and Nintendo kept in good terms and Nintendo made a bunch more successful Punch Out games with Mike Tyson in them then Mike Tyson would legitimately be a decent character to put in the game as a second Punch Out character. Sakurai's rule of "no non video game characters" isn't some kind of holy law that needs to be obeyed. It's a guiding principle. The only rule is "if Sakurai (or whomever else is in charge) thinks it's a good idea". If a character that originated outside of a video game presents itself then they could get in. The guy from the Witcher, Jearlt or whatever his name, might actually get in some day. A technicality of originating in a book series won't be an impediment (though like all third party characters, licensing might). Hell Lucario is technically a movie character.

 

[Lionfranky]

Well...., kinda?
Marvel vs. Capcom can be a celebration to the history of comic books.

Well then, just ditch the title and make different game. If it's about celebrating comic book, then it should ditch out Capcom.

I agree that there's still a lot of room to grow even within the bounds of no non-video game characters.

I only said that since I get extremely annoyed with anyone who brings up "if it ain't broke...", which I find to be a horrible mentality no matter what it applies to.

Non-video game characters tend to have licensing issue on top of that. Look at how many games got taken down due to licensing issue.

 

[HyperSomari64]

As a Side Note, Miku Hatsune is owned by Crypton Future Media and not by SEGA.
SEGA owns Tokyo Movie Shinsha, but that doesn't mean that Detective Conan is possible for Smash.