Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

You can blame for that otherwise, it wouldn’t even have to be a factor.

Hero was going to be a Fighter regardless. Promoting DQ11 is only the reason why Luminary got to be the default alt. Otherwise it would have been Erdrick.

If I can recall for WTF character choices....
Melee: Mr Game and Watch

Also, Ice Climbers.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

You guys over-estimating Crash's Japanese support. Sure he WAS popular in Japan but as the data shows, that has dwindled a lot since his debut games.

Even then Rayman has virtually little Japan presence yet he was considered many times as a trophy and spirit whilst Crash got nothing so said support isn't really a factor

Ubisoft has yet a rep and Microsoft already has 2 who will competing for Crash's spot next game.

Not saying Rayman is a lock, he has disadvantages but Crash over him despite the evidence is honestly silly

 

[SPEN18]

After that they generally just recycle models which results in series like EarthBound not having any trophies that weren’t present in Brawl elsewhere. Also why Fire Emblem only had trophies from PoR and RD in Brawl outside of Lyn and Marth.

Pokemon was the opposite where they had lot of trophies but they only were able to use Brawl original artwork for the stickers.

Yeah I would love more original art and/or models for the collectibles, but I can easily see why they don't think it's worth the cost. It would be cool if even, say, a limited number of the rarest collectibles got fully new art or even 3D models (or even some kind of "immersive art" idea). Obviously given the sheer number of total collectibles necessary (and desired) for Smash, it wouldn't be cost effective to do it for all collectibles, but a select few rare ones could be cool.

 

[mynameisBlade]

Hopefully Crash and Rayman both get in!

 

[Pupp135]

Also, Ice Climbers.

Ice Climbers were an unexpected choice, but they weren’t intentionally added as a surprise fighter for Melee. Instead, they were chosen to add a throwback character from the NES era. Interestingly enough, we technically haven’t received another “retro” character who was intentionally chosen as a throwback to an older console/franchise.

 

[Dinoman96]

You guys over-estimating Crash's Japanese support. Sure he WAS popular in Japan but as the data shows, that has dwindled a lot since his debut games.

Even then Rayman has virtually little Japan presence yet he was considered many times as a trophy and spirit whilst Crash got nothing so said support isn't really a factor

Ubisoft has yet a rep and Microsoft already has 2 who will competing for Crash's spot next game.

Not saying Rayman is a lock, he has disadvantages but Crash over him despite the evidence is honestly silly

There's actually a reason to why Rayman shows up as a trophy and spirit in both Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate: because the Wii U version of Rayman Legends was actually published by Nintendo there.

Fun fact: the only other version of Rayman Legends they got (prior to the DE on Switch)...was on PS Vita. They never got the Xbox/PS versions.

You'll notice that Rayman's spirit is grouped with all of the misc. Nintendo IPs like Snipperclips and Wonderful 101 in the spirit inventory because of this. It's kinda the same thing with the Shovel Knight spirits, as Shovel Knight was also published on Wii U and 3DS by Nintendo in Japan.

 

[RileyXY1]

Ice Climbers were an unexpected choice, but they weren’t intentionally added as a surprise fighter for Melee. Instead, they were chosen to add a throwback character from the NES era. Interestingly enough, we technically haven’t received another “retro” character who was intentionally chosen as a throwback to an older console/franchise.

Pit was another one, and unlike the Ice Climbers they decided to completely modernize him and bring him into the present day with a completely new design.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Pit was another one, and unlike the Ice Climbers they decided to completely modernize him and bring him into the present day with a completely new design.

I think he was designed as if Kid Icarus was a series that continued passed the NES and GB but that could just be speculation.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

There's actually a reason to why Rayman shows up as a trophy and spirit in both Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate: because the Wii U version of Rayman Legends was actually published by Nintendo there.

Fun fact: the only other version of Rayman Legends they got (prior to the DE on Switch)...was on PS Vita. They never got the Xbox/PS versions.

You'll notice that Rayman's spirit is grouped with all of the misc. Nintendo IPs like Snipperclips and Wonderful 101 in the spirit inventory because of this. It's kinda the same thing with the Shovel Knight spirits, as Shovel Knight was also published on Wii U and 3DS by Nintendo in Japan.

Neat. I didn't know this

So like i said, strong Nintendo connections to the point of publishing his games which made him a higher priority than Crash. Don't think that's changing with Smash 6

 

[Kirbeh]

Why is Crash vs Rayman even being debated? One doesn't preclude the possibility of the other. And more to the point, both of them have an uphill battle with Western fan support being their primary lifeline.

I'd be more concerned over the current status of their IP than how they stack up against each other.

This debate is like if we were arguing over FG characters during Ultimate and went "Sakurai just added Terry, so he totally won't add a different fighting game character from a different franchise owned by a different company that doesn't affect the other at all. He already hit the imaginary quota we just made up."

Replace Terry and Kazuya with RPG characters like Joker, Hero and Sora and so on.

 

[Dee Dude]

Why is Crash vs Rayman even being debated? One doesn't preclude the possibility of the other. And more to the point, both of them have an uphill battle with Western fan support being their primary lifeline.

I'd be more concerned over the current status of their IP than how they stack up against each other.

This debate is like if we were arguing over FG characters during Ultimate and went "Sakurai just added Terry, so he totally won't add a different fighting game character from a different franchise owned by a different company that doesn't affect the other at all. He already hit the imaginary quota we just made up."

Replace Terry and Kazuya with RPG characters like Joker, Hero and Sora and so on.

I think it’s because people will know that they can easily add multiple Fighting & RPG characters since Smash is focused on Japanese gaming franchises.

Hence why and could all co-exist within the Fighter Pass.

Same can’t be said for platformers since it was just so there’s a good chance they’ll only give us one or two western characters like (who represented sandbox) as a bone to overseas fans, it doesn’t help they’ve both only came from Microsoft so we don’t know if Nintendo or Sakurai would even try to approach Ubisoft or Sony for their characters.

We didn’t even get a single FPS character due to their unpopularity in Japan.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

On the topic of Rayman he’s, in a much better place than he was the last go around. Having a DLC that focuses on him in a Mario game, even if it is a Ubisoft Developed Mario game, is a pretty big deal.

On top of that, the fact that Rayman is confirmed to get a new game in the future at some point bodes well.

Whether Crash or Rayman is more likely to show up is a toss up though honestly, gauging interest for either in Japan is pretty hit or miss but at the very least Rayman has close ties with Nintendo now more than ever and more so than any other platformer mascot not named Mario.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

As long as the next Smash has Crash Bandicoot, I don't care who else is in it tbh. Him and Master Chief Rayman were the only 2 3rd party characters I think were truly missing from Ultimate. For 1st parties, the only ones that were MIA for me personally were Dixie Kong and Waluigi Bandana Dee.


I'll go ahead and put my top 10 most wanted 3rd/1st party characters here so I don't have to again.

3rd Party
1. Rayman
2. Master Chief
3. Another Sonic character (sheesh) My pick would be Tails
4. Ryu Hayabusa
5. Geno
6. Scorpion/Subzero (giving us MK x SF since Capcom won't)
7. Spyro
8. Agumon (giving us Pokemon x Digimon)
9. Lara Croft or James Bond N64 would be hilarious
10. Bomberman or Lloyd Irving ig

1st Party
1. Dixie Kong
2. Bandana Dee
3. Waluigi
4. Isaac
5. Impa or Skull Kid whichever
6. Toad.. Give Toad his own spot damnit..
7. Prof Oak/Gary/Giovanni/another PKMN Trainer with 3 different types
8. Paper Mario
9. Krystal
10. Anything other than more Fire Emblem... :/ I'm sure that PTSD will kick back in the day this game gets officially announced.

1P

1. Bandana Waddle Dee (Kirby)
2. Dragapult (Pokemon)
3. Midna (The Legend of Zelda)
4. Isaac (Golden Sun)
5. Amazon Pandora (Kid Icarus)
6. V-Raptor (Fossil Fighters)
7. Hatterene (Pokemon)
8. King Boo (Mario)
9. Twintelle (ARMS)
10. Urban Champion (Urban Champion)

3P

1. Maxwell (Scribblenauts)
2. Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers)
3. Athena Asamiya (Psycho Soldier)
4. Crazy Dave (Plants vs. Zombies)
5. Okabe Rintaro (Steins;Gate)
6. Narmaya (Granblue Fantasy)
7. Scorpion (Mortal Kombat)
8. Dizzy (Guilty Gear)
9. Dovahkiin (Elder Scrolls)
10. Shadowheart (Baldur's Gate)

 

[Dee Dude]

It’s not that Rayman’s unlikely, I just think Crash has a better shot than him.

I want both of them in.

 

[CannonStreak]

It’s not that Rayman’s unlikely, I just think Crash has a better shot than him.

I want both of them in.

Same here. I actually like those two.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

You guys over-estimating Crash's Japanese support. Sure he WAS popular in Japan but as the data shows, that has dwindled a lot since his debut games.

Even then Rayman has virtually little Japan presence yet he was considered many times as a trophy and spirit whilst Crash got nothing so said support isn't really a factor

Ubisoft has yet a rep and Microsoft already has 2 who will competing for Crash's spot next game.

Not saying Rayman is a lock, he has disadvantages but Crash over him despite the evidence is honestly silly

Nintendo publishing the Wii U version of Rayman Legends in Japan probably influenced their presence in Smash. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Ubisoft went to Nintendo about getting Rayman in Smash, and the trophies (whose models were provided by Ubisoft) were a consolation prize like with CommanderVideo.

Back when characters were being decided for Ultimate Activision and Nintendo didn’t have the strongest of relationships, but now the Crash IP is owned by Microsoft who very much does have a strong relationship with Nintendo, and has been very eager about getting their characters in Smash. Yeah, there are other Microsoft characters worth considering, but we got 2 last time, and Crash is probably the most requested guest character in general at this point, if Nintendo works with Microsoft again to get more newcomers, which I imagine they will, Crash will likely be one of those characters.

From what I can tell Japanese people who played the original Naughty Dog games still have a reverence for the character/IP, but the series has failed to garner a audience in recent times, likely partly due to the lack of strong marketing, which is what drew Japanese people into the original games. Its popularity is definitely a lot less to what it used to be, but he’s still recognized by many people, and is still more popular than Rayman ever was. Also Crash has placed highly in Japanese Smash fan polls, not the best indicator of this kind of thing, but it’s something.

The only thing Rayman has over Crash at this point is association with Nintendo, not enough to decisively say he’s more likely. If Nintendo association mattered that much then Snake wouldn’t have been the first ever guest character, Cloud wouldn’t have been the first Square Enix/RPG guest character, and Joker wouldn’t have been the first fighter pass character. Also Nintendo preferring to have 2 Microsoft characters in favor of any Ubisoft character does not put Rayman in a favorable position.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

On top of that, the fact that Rayman is confirmed to get a new game in the future at some point bodes well.

As far as I've seen they're just exploring the possibility, which means they could deem it not viable especially in their current situation where Ubisoft could end up going private and needing to sell off properties. And even if they don't end up selling some of their IPs, if they've gone private they'd need to focus on big money-makers, which I don't know if Rayman could fill in for, especially since from what I read, the team that may have been working on it was disbanded after Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown's low sales numbers.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly Rayman could at least use a collection to consistently get all of the pre-Legends games on modern platforms. It's pretty odd that there's loads of midlevel platformers are all over Switch, but the original Rayman trilogy and Origins aren't.

 

[AreJay25]

Honestly Rayman could at least use a collection to consistently get all of the pre-Legends games on modern platforms. It's pretty odd that there's loads of midlevel platformers are all over Switch, but the original Rayman trilogy and Origins aren't.

Honestly now that you mention it, I'm surprised Rayman 2 at the very least doesn't have a modern day re-release, considering how often it's been ported in the past.

That game is the Doom of 3D platformers I swear.

 

[Noipoi]

Why is Crash vs Rayman even being debated? One doesn't preclude the possibility of the other. And more to the point, both of them have an uphill battle with Western fan support being their primary lifeline.

Because this is Smash speculation and everything’s gotta be a fight

 

[DarthEnderX]

Ice Climbers were an unexpected choice, but they weren’t intentionally added as a surprise fighter for Melee. Instead, they were chosen to add a throwback character from the NES era. Interestingly enough, we technically haven’t received another “retro” character who was intentionally chosen as a throwback to an older console/franchise.

How is that not what Duck Hunt is? A throwback character from the NES era IS the surprise Fighter.

If anything, Ice Climbers is more of a surprise Fighter than Duck Hunt.

They're both NES games that never got sequels. But at least Duck Hunt was popular at one time.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Honestly now that you mention it, I'm surprised Rayman 2 at the very least doesn't have a modern day re-release, considering how often it's been ported in the past.

That game is the Doom of 3D platformers I swear.

Rayman 1 isn’t on modern consoles outside of the discontinued mobile port. It was on the DSi and 3DS but that was also discontinued.

I couldn’t find anything if it’s on PC?

 

[Gioka]

Back again at square one, huh? Feels like coming back home.
Hi, everybody! And reminder: Isaac for Smash

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It's telling about Rayman 1's status on modern platforms that the fan remake of it, Rayman Redemption has probably been played by far more people in the last five years because the former is so inconsistently available to actually experience.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I think a Virtua Fighter character makes a lot of sense due to its impact and recent revival. The main obstacle it has in my opinion is that VF is a series that tries to have the characters fighting styles be fairly rooted in reality, much more so than Tekken.

We saw that Sakurai specifically added Kazuya over Heihachi, because it allowed him to implement a character who fights as similar as possible to how they do in Tekken, terrible single jump and all, but also have more crazy abilities with his devil powers which better align with Smash Bros. game design, stuff like special moves, smash attacks and most notably his wings allowing a good midair jump and recovery special move.

Adding someone like Akira would be like adding Heihachi, a character Sakurai seemingly felt “wouldn’t feel right” in Smash. In Smash the fighting game characters especially have been very accurate to how they play in their home series, pretty much as accurate as you can get. Sakurai notably said he wanted to capture the true essence of Tekken, which he felt Kazuya allowed him to do. If Sakurai doesn’t think he can “capture the true essence” of Virtua Fighter while still having them fit in Smash it may not happen.

Time to finally bring back Virtua Fighter Kids for smash fans and the REAL adults play VF6

 

[Dee Dude]

Back again at square one, huh? Feels like coming back home.
Hi, everybody! And reminder: Isaac for Smash

Looks like I’m not the only one who returned here because of the potential pre-Smash Switch 2 hype.

Welcome back! I openly support Isaac too.

 

[NintenRob]

Duck Hunt was also Smash 4's token WTF/surprise character. Sakurai's planning documents said as such.

I think Wii Fit Trainer is honestly nothing but a mere popular contemporary Nintendo pick, not that different from Inkling or Min Min.

The Smash 4 Project plan has always been quite curious to me. The three newcomers listed are newcomers the Gematsu leak didn't mention, on top of actually having Robin instead Chrom, suggesting Chrom was never truly considered as far game planning goes (maybe briefly thought about in Sakurais head)

Despite this seemingly completely disproving the Gematsu leak (it was the Robin reveal that killed it in the first place). There is evidence that the chorus kids, the other leaked character, was actually planned at one point. Or Rhythm Heaven in general.



I'd love to know the full story behind this.

 

[RileyXY1]

The Smash 4 Project plan has always been quite curious to me. The three newcomers listed are newcomers the Gematsu leak didn't mention, on top of actually having Robin instead Chrom, suggesting Chrom was never truly considered as far game planning goes (maybe briefly thought about in Sakurais head)

Despite this seemingly completely disproving the Gematsu leak (it was the Robin reveal that killed it in the first place). There is evidence that the chorus kids, the other leaked character, was actually planned at one point. Or Rhythm Heaven in general.



I'd love to know the full story behind this.

Although the only evidence for a Rhythm Heaven character even being planned was that an icon for the series was found in the game's code alongside other icons that were for series that had playable characters.

 

[Perkilator]

Duck Hunt was also Smash 4's token WTF/surprise character. Sakurai's planning documents said as such.

I think Wii Fit Trainer is honestly nothing but a mere popular contemporary Nintendo pick, not that different from Inkling or Min Min.

Here, lemme just…

There we go. Feel free to save this little cut-out image, everyone.

 

[NintenRob]

Although the only evidence for a Rhythm Heaven character even being planned was that an icon for the series was found in the game's code alongside other icons that were for series that had playable characters.

Evidence in the code, but we also had the sneaky spirit enemy in Smash Run. Every single other enemy in the game was associated with a franchise with a playable character. (The only sort of exception being Polar Bear [ice Climbers were planned but cut] and the Namco enemies [the Pac-Man franchise was essentially treated as retro Namco franchise])

 

[CannonStreak]

I just had a thought: With those who may have done well on the ballot but did not get in as playable characters in Smash Bros. Ultimate? (Say Isaac, Bandana Dee, Waluigi, Dixie Kong, Crash Bandicoot and maybe Geno), I think that Sakurai noticed how popular they were, but since making all playable characters who were playable in any Smash game before a priority, it was difficult to bring them back all at once. Some of those who did not get in as playable in the base game were made into Assist Trophies, some were added as DLC, and others may have been put aside for other characters for promotion reasons (like maybe Sephiroth over Geno, maybe to promote the Final Fantasy VII remake games, but this is just a guess), as some DLC characters were added for promotion reasons.

BUT anyway, my point is that if Sakurai is still using the ballot for the next game, and with how some characters did well to get into Ultimate in some way, maybe they will have a higher chance of becoming playable in the next Smash Bros. game. I think that without focusing on bringing everyone back like in Ultimate, (Sakurai did say it may not happen again, did he hot), there may be a higher chance of those characters making it into the next Smash Bros. game.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Because this is Smash speculation and everything’s gotta be a fight

Well yeah, if they're gonna beat the snot out of each other in Smash, you gotta prepare them somehow!

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

As far as I've seen they're just exploring the possibility, which means they could deem it not viable especially in their current situation where Ubisoft could end up going private and needing to sell off properties. And even if they don't end up selling some of their IPs, if they've gone private they'd need to focus on big money-makers, which I don't know if Rayman could fill in for, especially since from what I read, the team that may have been working on it was disbanded after Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown's low sales numbers.

The team that was working on Lost Crown was moved onto the Rayman project.

Source: https://www.ign.com/articles/ubisof...ayman-game-with-creator-michel-ancel-involved

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Hero was going to be a Fighter regardless. Promoting DQ11 is only the reason why Luminary got to be the default alt. Otherwise it would have been Erdrick.

I kinda feel like if Hero comes back Erdrick WILL be the default because they treated him as such after Hero got in.

 

[Dee Dude]

Plot twist: Sakurai’s next project isn’t Smash 6 but something different (Kid Icarus Uprising 2/New IP) but then it’s revealed that Studio 2 and Studio S ARE still developing the next Smash title, it’s just getting a new director.

How would you react to this news?

 

[CannonStreak]

Plot twist: Sakurai’s next project isn’t Smash 6 but something different (Kid Icarus Uprising 2/New IP) but then it turns out that Studio 2 and Studio S ARE still developing the next Smash title, it’s just getting a new director.

How would you react to this news?

I wouldn’t be surprised, to be honest. In fact, I am expecting something like that.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Plot twist: Sakurai’s next project isn’t Smash 6 but something different (Kid Icarus Uprising 2/New IP) but then it’s revealed that Studio 2 and Studio S ARE still developing the next Smash title, it’s just getting a new director.

How would you react to this news?

Scared

 

[Perkilator]

Plot twist: Sakurai’s next project isn’t Smash 6 but something different (Kid Icarus Uprising 2/New IP) but then it’s revealed that Studio 2 and Studio S ARE still developing the next Smash title, it’s just getting a new director.

How would you react to this news?

That would depend on who the new director is. At the very least, I’d hope it was someone that Sakurai has faith in.

 

[Dee Dude]

I don’t think Sakurai would ever outright leave Smash if someone’s else in charge, Nintendo owns the IP but it’s his baby, he’ll stick around as a supervisor/consultant at best.

The reason why I’d be excited for a new director is so can finally stop having those stupid realistic animal sounds or ‘s representation being 97% Super Star and 3% modern.

I respect Sakurai but I’m just so irritated by his “personal visions” because these problems I have with how he portrays certain characters or represents series will never go away unless he’s outright replaced, the man is too stubborn to change some stuff.

 

[CannonStreak]

Speaking of, how likely do you all think that Sakurai could still be the director for the next Smash Bros.?