Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

I’ll use this as an opportunity to ask a question to those who would like to see a smaller roster for the next Smash. I hear the argument about quality over quantity all the time but other than missing a good single player, I feel like the actual gameplay of Ultimate is really high quality and the game is a ton of fun as is. If you also think we’ll never see something as ambitious as Subspace Emissary again, what specifically would you like to see that could make up for having a much smaller roster? As much as I miss things like Break the Targets, they do wear out after you’ve completed them and don’t exactly have the long lasting appeal of characters and stages to me.

I don't want a smaller roster just for the sake of it. Heck, I don't want a smaller roster period but the resources that would go into a close to 100 character roster are naturally going to drain from elsewhere.

Granted, it is all subjective. It's great that you and a lot of people enjoy how Ultimate plays.

Personally though, I don't like the way the game feels. I don't like the online. I don't like the single player offerings. I like all the newcomers but I dislike how most of them were executed. I think a half dozen (maybe even full dozen) veterans are also lacking in their design. This is a Smash that I love on paper but don't actually enjoy as much when I actually play it. Not to say I don't get any enjoyment out of it (I still play it a few times a week) but I enjoyed older titles a lot more.

Again though, I'm fully aware that I'm in the minority.

That aside, if it were up to me, I wouldn't want them to completely gut the roster either. (If anything I'd cut the trailer budget first, marketing be damned.)

As for what I'd want them to add?

Functional online. An adventure mode even if there isn't a story. More modes in general both old and new. A revamped stage builder. A more thorough retooling/rebalancing of the characters we already have. New mechanics. There's a lot I want outside of just characters.

Characters will always be the biggest draw for sure but I'd like more stuff to do with those characters.

And if I can't have that then at least give me the means to reliably play against human opponents online.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I do think Sheik was not a low priority in 4, though I also think Zelda was very high priority and Sakurai very likely originally planned to keep her as-is before the 3DS proved too big an issue. So I'm not sure if Sheik simply benefitted in priority from the attachment to Zelda. It's an open question. In any case, I do think the situation for Sheik is worse now than in 4, with that ego of Zelda being more squarely in the rearview and more cuts in general likely being on the table, especially for longer-term but ultimately expendable franchise inclusions like this.

I mean I don't think Sheik was low priority either and I definitely think Sheik is coming back next game, I'm just saying if there ever WAS a time to consider it, it would've been in Smash 4's development. I don't think Sheik would've been kept simply from priority to Zelda because I could say the same thing about Squirtle at least through Charizard being huge for Pokemon, but Squirtle didn't make it in lol

That said, I don't know if I agree with Sheik really being in a worse position now? Not much has really changed for Sheik aside from Hyrule Warriors coming out three times, which is more than she could say during 4's development.

 

[Schnee117]

If your fighting game doesn't have good online, especially in a post-pandemic world, then your fighting game is automatically not very good.
It'd be especially embarrassing for Smash after it got wholly dropped from Online Evo and then Nintendo's own online events had numerous instances of the online flat out not working.

Good Online is an absolute must, you need good rollback netcode, you need proper lobbies and you need to have proper ranked and unranked modes as well as ensuring people can actually get the matches they're looking for instead of subjecting people who want a more competitive 1v1 ruleset to a chaotic free for all and vice versa and you need to make sure people are actually able to find matches instead of ending up in a KOF15 situation where the matchmaking flat out did not work for OVER a year.

 

[Gengar84]

If your fighting game doesn't have good online, especially in a post-pandemic world, then your fighting game is automatically not very good.
It'd be especially embarrassing for Smash after it got wholly dropped from Online Evo and then Nintendo's own online events had numerous instances of the online flat out not working.

Good Online is an absolute must, you need good rollback netcode, you need proper lobbies and you need to have proper ranked and unranked modes as well as ensuring people can actually get the matches they're looking for instead of subjecting people who want a more competitive 1v1 ruleset to a chaotic free for all and vice versa and you need to make sure people are actually able to find matches instead of ending up in a KOF15 situation where the matchmaking flat out did not work for OVER a year.

I think you’re right in the general sense. It just kind of sucks for those of us that don’t care about the online if it comes at the expense of everything else.

 

[ninjahmos]

So, about Sheik…

We all know she debuted in OOT as a random plot point, but her playable appearance in Melee popularized her. She was even in Hyrule Warriors, but that was a Zelda x Dynasty Warriors crossover, so of course they were gonna put her in. Kinda like Will said, most people know her from Smash, just like Captain Falcon.

Sheik isn't going anywhere, and frankly, I don't think Falcon is either. Especially considering the fact that Sakurai used Dragon King as the base for his moveset.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think you’re right in the general sense. It just kind of sucks for those of us that don’t care about the online if it comes at the expense of everything else.

I can't imagine rollback would be that much of a drain on resources compared to everything else, SSBU doesn't have it only because the Switch is too weak to handle rollback outside of 1v1s with no items.

 

[ninjahmos]

Yeah, the next game could definitely use better online. Especially with rollback.

In fact, I think that's what the Switch 2 generally needs, among other things.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that Smash might completely skip the Switch 2 for the same reason Metroid skipped the N64. They might not know how to make the next Smash game live up to the standards set by Ultimate, the same way they didn't know how to make a new Metroid game that lived up to the standards set by Super Metroid.

 

[AreJay25]

I think that Smash might completely skip the Switch 2 for the same reason Metroid skipped the N64. They might not know how to make the next Smash game live up to the standards set by Ultimate, the same way they didn't know how to make a new Metroid game that lived up to the standards set by Super Metroid.

They're not letting one of their biggest money makers skip the successor of one of the most successful consoles ever released.

 

[Golden Icarus]

If your fighting game doesn't have good online, especially in a post-pandemic world, then your fighting game is automatically not very good.
It'd be especially embarrassing for Smash after it got wholly dropped from Online Evo and then Nintendo's own online events had numerous instances of the online flat out not working.

Good Online is an absolute must, you need good rollback netcode, you need proper lobbies and you need to have proper ranked and unranked modes as well as ensuring people can actually get the matches they're looking for instead of subjecting people who want a more competitive 1v1 ruleset to a chaotic free for all and vice versa and you need to make sure people are actually able to find matches instead of ending up in a KOF15 situation where the matchmaking flat out did not work for OVER a year.

Kof 15 was really sad. The only chance that game had was at release. They pumped it with DLC support, eventually fixed the online, but it just didn't matter because the launch was absolutely horrendous. And it's a cycle. Bad online? No one will play the game. Fixed online? Doesn't matter because nobody's playing. But it's good now? No it's not because nobody is playing. Online is useless when there's no player base to speak of. They never established a large community of players because everybody abandoned the game right after launch and dropping the ball so early made it impossible to gain momentum.

GG Strive is kind of the opposite example. Like KoF, it was a relatively niche series that always relied on a small fanbase, but the netcode and matchmaking in Strive was incredible and it helped snowball that game into being way more successful than anyone would have expected. And the amount of content at launch was nothing impressive, but they had the luxury of slowly adding content because they hooked a loyal fanbase early on, which never would have happened if the online wasn't functional.

...That said, while I pray that Smash can finally get some good online I still don't really think they need it, even in a post-2020 world. Smash is a lot of things. It appeals to a lot of people. It's the one fighting game that can actually get away with the bare minimum in terms of online. I do have faith that they'll make better netcode a priority for next game because of how much of a standard it is, but I'd be lying if I said it was necessary for Smash's success.

 

[RileyXY1]

They're not letting one of their biggest money makers skip the successor of one of the most successful consoles ever released.

Still, I'm concerned that it might flop because it didn't meet the massive expectations set on it by Ultimate and the players will just keep playing Ultimate (which you can play on the Switch 2) instead of buying the new game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If your fighting game doesn't have good online, especially in a post-pandemic world, then your fighting game is automatically not very good.
It'd be especially embarrassing for Smash after it got wholly dropped from Online Evo and then Nintendo's own online events had numerous instances of the online flat out not working.

Now that Tekken and Virtua Fighter are finally on board. Smash is pretty much the only fighting game franchise without rollback netcode.

 

[AreJay25]

Still, I'm concerned that it might flop because it didn't meet the massive expectations set on it by Ultimate and the players will just keep playing Ultimate (which you can play on the Switch 2) instead of buying the new game.

There's literally no reason to expect a new game to flop just because Ultimate exists. The game is turning 7 years old. People are going to want to play something new eventually.

As long as they don't royally **** up and pull a Marvel Infinite or something, it will do just fine.

 

[Opossum]

I think that Smash might completely skip the Switch 2 for the same reason Metroid skipped the N64. They might not know how to make the next Smash game live up to the standards set by Ultimate, the same way they didn't know how to make a new Metroid game that lived up to the standards set by Super Metroid.

You don't actually think that. You're posting this disingenuously for the sake of posting a hot take.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

And my counter to that is Ultimate was literally Iwata's final request to Sakurai and to essentially force Sakurai to work on Smash non-stop for well over a decade is overkill.

Let him do something else as a buffer.

But if that happens god knows how long we would have to wait for the next smash. Hate to be that guy but dang is gonna be a painful wait if that happens.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think that Smash might completely skip the Switch 2 for the same reason Metroid skipped the N64. They might not know how to make the next Smash game live up to the standards set by Ultimate, the same way they didn't know how to make a new Metroid game that lived up to the standards set by Super Metroid.

That's not why Metroid didn't show up on N64 I'm pretty sure, Nintendo just didn't know what to do with the series in 3D until Retro started working on Prime in 1999. Super Metroid came out in 1994, so it was in the latter half of the SNES's life, and Gunpei Yokoi died in 1997, so that also probably didn't help things.

Also, while Super Metroid was critically acclaimed at the time, considering Metroid's track record it probably didn't sell super well considering it didn't break a million copies until like 2003, well into the Gamecube era, so they probably just didn't see a need for it to be super regular.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

There was Project Plus but the hype went down after Knuckles was announced and the fact that updates are mostly just patches, costumes and stages.

We also have Project m ex remix which is still getting updated. And is arguably the best smash mod package out there.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But if that happens god knows how long we would have to wait for the next smash. Hate to be that guy but dang is gonna be a painful wait if that happens.

He already did say it could be a 10 year gap between SSBU and the next Smash.

 

[P4ST4N4G4]

But if that happens god knows how long we would have to wait for the next smash. Hate to be that guy but dang is gonna be a painful wait if that happens.

It'll be out when it's ready, personally i believe it's going to be quite a few years into the Switch 2's lifecycle until we even hear of a new Smash.

And yeah i guess Sakurai is probably a tad tired from doing essentially the same game five times in almost a row with basically one or two original games in-between each smash installment.

Maybe he could prepare a team to work on Smash from now on that he personally chooses but after hearing and reading all his efforts as director it seems difficult to imagine he would let anyone take care of the series just like that.

So the easiest awnser in the end is to just wait and see.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

We also have Project m ex remix which is still getting updated. And is arguably the best smash mod package out there.

Agreed although I think they should improve the causal side of things.

Notably Classic Mode since it’s always the same as Vanilla Brawl excluding stages. Not even Roy, Mewtwo and Knuckles are included in P+’s Classic mode.

 

[RodNutTakin]

I think Diddy Kong is on to something with the potentially much longer devtime. Assuming the next title is a Holiday 2026 release (which I think is likely), and that it is the project started in April 2022, that will be around 55-56 months of development time for the game, and that would be around 1.6x the development time Ultimate's base game had. That honestly seems like more than enough time to have a pretty big roster for a more feature-complete game assuming they weren't foolish and tried to do something as equally draining on resources as Subspace was to Brawl.

And again, that's not even factoring into the likely possibility that post-launch will be much more robust and meaty than Ultimate's, too.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Agreed although I think they should improve the causal side of things.

Notably Classic Mode since it’s always the same as Vanilla Brawl excluding stages. Not even Roy, Mewtwo and Knuckles are included in P+’s Classic mode.

True. And also add final smashes for a few of the characters who don’t have one yet. With those fixes is basically a perfect smash game tho.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

He already did say it could be a 10 year gap between SSBU and the next Smash.

Umm, I don’t remember him saying it take 10 years.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Isaac - Isaac is probably the biggest case of 'fan speculation' on the entire roster. No way he gets included now. There is fan demand for him but it's nowhere near the levels of Waluigi, Ridley and King K. Rool. And 1st party IPs have only grown since then, why should Golden Sun get a rep now, over Astral Chain, Famicom Det. Club etc.?

If they're still adding fan picks, I'm not going to count him out because he's still up there, even if he's not quite on the same level as the others. Waluigi and Dee have fan demand but could also be picked because they're both still appearing in games. So Isaac could be the true fan pick of the roster.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think that Smash might completely skip the Switch 2 for the same reason Metroid skipped the N64. They might not know how to make the next Smash game live up to the standards set by Ultimate, the same way they didn't know how to make a new Metroid game that lived up to the standards set by Super Metroid.

Imagine thinking they will willingly let their biggest money maker skip a generation

 

[Ivander]

Imagine thinking they will willingly let their biggest money maker skip a generation

Of course they won't. They already didn't. looks at Mario Kart

 

[Guynamednelson]

Umm, I don’t remember him saying it take 10 years.

Sakurai: The Next Super Smash Bros. Could Come In 10 Years | NintendoSoup

Ryokutya29 has released the first leaked details from the huge Weekly Famitsu Masahiro Sakurai interview…

nintendosoup.com

Unfortunately this is the best source I could find, the search results for "sakurai next smash 10 years" are now full of articles about him saying he's already working on a new game in the finale of his YouTube show.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Imagine thinking they will willingly let their biggest money maker skip a generation

He's a reverse oracle. Whatever he says, the exact opposite happens.

 

[HyperSomari64]

We also have Project m ex remix which is still getting updated. And is arguably the best smash mod package out there.

It got renamed to "REX".
(and Wario Bros. on The Social Thread is still waiting for more REX updates)

 

[Gorgonzales]

Imagine thinking they will willingly let their biggest money maker skip a generation

The way Booster is drawn here slays me.

 

[SPEN18]

I mean I don't think Sheik was low priority either and I definitely think Sheik is coming back next game, I'm just saying if there ever WAS a time to consider it, it would've been in Smash 4's development. I don't think Sheik would've been kept simply from priority to Zelda because I could say the same thing about Squirtle at least through Charizard being huge for Pokemon, but Squirtle didn't make it in lol

That said, I don't know if I agree with Sheik really being in a worse position now? Not much has really changed for Sheik aside from Hyrule Warriors coming out three times, which is more than she could say during 4's development.

Idk, Smash 4 had very few cuts to fully unique characters in general, only characters with technical difficulties, a third party, and Mewtwo (at least initially). So "wasn't cut in Smash 4" is just a very low bar to clear for a non-clone character, and on its own probably not strong evidence of future retention when cutting fully unique characters actually is more significantly on the docket.

The known fact is that Ice Climbers had significant work done and some level of functionality at least on the Wii U before the plug had to be pulled, and nonnegligible effort went into attempting to get them to work on 3DS. Given that and the pretty light assumption that Zelda would've been a much higher priority than ICs, it seems very easy to believe that Sheik had significant work done before the split was finalized. It's ultimately speculative, but noteworthy enough to put an asterisk on Sheik's apparent Smash 4 priority level, that's all.
I don't know what happened with Squirt and Ivy, but it's easily possible they simply were lower priority than a character like Zelda from the start, and/or were viewed as being more awkward inclusions as solo characters, and/or simply were further behind characters like Sheik or ZSS in development because they were part of a 3-in-1 fighter instead of a 2-in-1 fighter (and keeping one of the two but not the other would have been awkward). Point is there's multiple reasonably possible explanations.
So, yeah, the evidence regarding work done on characters facing technical issues and the fact that Sheik was at least initially quite intimately tied to a character that was always very clearly going to be a high priority certainly limit what we can say about Sheik's priority as a pure solo fighter.