Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gorgonzales]

We playing the same game with ROB, Steve, Min Min, Sonic, and Game and Watch right?

I think at this point, they could really care less about making characters obnoxious.

Unless you ladder combo a newcomer into the stratosphere on Green Greens as Bayonetta in front of thousands of viewers and Sakurai himself.

 

[ninjahmos]

Assuming the next game will be different from Ultimate, I'm kind of hoping the Results Display Screen music will be something different instead of the Smash 64 Character Select Theme again.

And, if the music direction is also different for the next game, I still think rock and jazz-funk would hit hard.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

How important do you think Toon Link and the whole Toon Zelda style is to Nintendo as a whole?

 

[Noipoi]

How important do you think Toon Link and the whole Toon Zelda style is to Nintendo as a whole?

Important enough to make another port of Wind Waker to drop on the Switch 2 to make up for the lack of a new Zelda

 

[Louie G.]

How important do you think Toon Link and the whole Toon Zelda style is to Nintendo as a whole?

Increasingly less-so, but I think it's a very significant part of Zelda's overall history. It seems like it's taken a backseat for now in favor of the "Toy" style, not sure if it's a permanent retirement or just a break for this generation. I'm honestly assuming Wind Waker HD will get a port sooner or later, so if that happens I suppose we can expect to see Toon Link at the forefront for a little while again.

I hope they aren't done making Toon-styled games forever, but they had a really substantial run. Enough to keep him safe for Smash? Not entirely sure, but I do have an itching feeling that some kind of green tunic-ed Link is important enough to have around. Unless next game goes harder on alternate costumes and lets Link dress up like his old self - if we aren't so fortunate, I think Toon Link is in decent standing.

 

[Idon]

How important do you think Toon Link and the whole Toon Zelda style is to Nintendo as a whole?

Considering our last mention of the toon style was a remaster 12 years ago on the Wii U...

I'm gonna say not as important as a lot of people here would believe lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Considering our last mention of the toon style was a remaster 12 years ago on the Wii U...

I'm gonna say not as important as a lot of people here would believe lol.

Actually it was Triforce Heroes which released in 2015.

That's not much better but... It's more accurate.

 

[Kirbeh]

Important enough to make another port of Wind Waker to drop on the Switch 2 to make up for the lack of a new Zelda

Completely unrelated but I actually had to double take because I thought this was a Gengar84 post with a new profile pic. That's just how much I associate Gengar with our Gengar I guess.

On topic, I... I actually don't know. I'm honestly kind of inclined to believe that the "Toon" style has been effectively retired. Like Swamp mentioned

Triforce Heroes which released in 2015.

oh god it's been 10 years...

I feel like the "Toy" style has become the new secondary art style. Only two games in so far with the LA remake and EoW, but we don't typically get repeat art styles outside of the rare direct sequel like MM and TotK. Meanwhile EoW is pretty far removed from LA.

Maybe it's too soon to call on the diorama style but if we get a third then maybe it'd be fairer to say. That said, I don't think the Toon style is shelved for good, just benched while they explore other art styles and make the most of existing assets.

 

[Noipoi]

Completely unrelated but I actually had to double take because I thought this was a Gengar84 post with a new profile pic. That's just how much I associate Gengar with our Gengar I guess.

What Gengar?

 

[Thegameandwatch]

How important do you think Toon Link and the whole Toon Zelda style is to Nintendo as a whole?

The most consistent art style at 7 games but not necessarily important. Despite that number, TP design has been used for the same amount of home console games (2) since Link's Crossbow Training exists.

Toon Link is more likely to stay then Young Link but Smash 6 can also either just have regular Link or replace Toon Link with the version from LA/EoW.

 

[Gengar84]

What Gengar?

I’m guessing Kirbeh’s referring to your Kangaskhan profile picture. They probably mistook Kangaskhan for Gengar. I’m just happy someone’s thinking of me

 

[Guynamednelson]

I’m guessing Kirbeh’s referring to your Kangaskhan profile picture. They probably mistook Kangaskhan for Gengar. I’m just happy someone’s thinking of me

He had a Mega Gengar profile picture yesterday.

 

[Noipoi]

I’m guessing Kirbeh’s referring to your Kangaskhan profile picture. They probably mistook Kangaskhan for Gengar. I’m just happy someone’s thinking of me

I'm doing a thing where I'm cycling my avatar through all the Mega Evolutions as a countdown to Pokemon Day, because I'm really stoked to finally see Legends ZA.

My pfp was Mega Gengar up until ten minutes ago, causing the confusion

 

[Gengar84]

Ahhh… that makes a lot more sense. I was curious how somebody could have mistaken Kangaskhan for Gengar lol.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Actually it was Triforce Heroes which released in 2015.

That's not much better but... It's more accurate.

Technically wouldn't it actually be Hyrule Warriors Definitive Edition in 2018? Since Toon Link and co are in that.

 

[smashkirby]

One day, Sakurai's just gonna do it. He's gonna post a bunch of screenshots and videos with certain features and all the hints he added are gonna add up to the reveal of Goku* or something.

And we will never know peace again.

*From Yūyūki

Aside from me wanting Goku on his own merits, I sincerely pray that if Goku does get into Smash... that Sakurai (or whoever ends up directing Smash Bros. in the future) goes utterly INSANE on making us think that Dragon Ball!Goku is actually coming to Smash Bros..

Like, I'd love for them to go whole-hog on that.

So, the MvC discussion from a couple of days ago had me thinking.

How would you all feel about character endings for Classic Mode?

And I don't mean the gameplay clip shows that you'd get in games prior to Ultimate. I mean actually unique, fully animated endings like you see in other fighting games.

It'd probably be a lot of work if it's a bigger roster, but I think it'd add some nice personality to a mode that just... kinda ends on an abrupt note as it currently stands.

With how Smash Ultimate's Classic Mode was developed? I WISH that 'character endings' were a thing. To me, it would have made that mode more wotrh it.

Otherwise, I'm still bummed out that, for as big as Ultimate's roster was, they chose NOW to be the time to not use Melee/3DS's Classic Mode style.

A lot of this goes back to Brawl for the former reason, especially. Most of the big support bases that existed for the Smash fandom got their start in the Brawl to post-Brawl/pre-4 speculation period, and one of the big things we had to go off of back then was Sakurai's reason for dismissing Villager as a potential Brawl newcomer. As a result of that, a lot of the miscellaneous series without immediately-obvious fighter potential failed to take off in the general speculation sphere. Other factors took hold as well, such as general apprehension toward Japan-only character choices. Pretty much only Takamaru and, to a lesser extent, Sukapon had significant fanbases back then (well, and the Masked Man, but we're talking about new franchises).

And then in the more modern eras of base game and DLC Smash 4, and then Ultimate's entire cycle, a lot of those existing fanbases gave in to what they thought was the reality of it all: that it wasn't worth supporting these characters when Nintendo clearly wanted to push more "relevant" characters, be they first or third party. And that's an absolute shame, since it's now at the point where Isaac is pretty much the only one to keep a lot of fanbase retention when there are so many smaller Nintendo franchises that could offer cool fighters for Smash.

Kind of nutty to me how Nintendo was suddenly going all-out on creating new IPs during the Gamecube/GBA era, yet Brawl was more focused on adding characters who probably seemed like notable omissions from Melee.

Had it gone with more of a 'Smash 4-style' of selecting characters, Brawl probably would have been filled with folks like (for example) Kururin, Isaac, Andy, Ray MK III, Starfy, Mona, Chibi-Robo, Saki Amemiya, Barbara the Bat, Alexandra Roivas, Jonathan Raimi, and/or maybe even someone from Odama or something.

Wait no, even better idea.

We get Bowser's Brother back in the flesh.

Ngl, I still believe Bowser's brother has a place in the Mario canon. Specifically, you all know how the 'current story' is that the Koopalings aren't Bowser's blood children anymore?

Well... Bowser's brother = Morton Koopa Sr., anyone?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

While Toon Link's relevance may be going away, I think the reason why he's stayed so long was because Sakurai thinks it important to keep a child link around; a quicker Link. I think it's fairly likely we'll see Toon Link or Young Link, but not Model Link unless it was made clear to Sakurai that that Link was the current smaller title version, and was going to see use for a while. Even then, Model Link only has The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening to go off of since there's only two games with that artstyle, and he isn't really in the second one. I'm not really sure if his apearances is enough to get a bead on how to go about makeing yet another child Link design, and doing so might be ultimately unnecessary in the first place.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Ngl, I still believe Bowser's brother has a place in the Mario canon. Specifically, you all know how the 'current story' is that the Koopalings aren't Bowser's blood children anymore?

Well... Bowser's brother = Morton Koopa Sr., anyone?

Admittedly I lean more towards them being his adopted kids, but that works too. Anything to finally figure out who this Morton Koopa Sr. is...

 

[ninjahmos]

I've always wondered…

If Peach isn't Bowser Jr.'s mother, then who is?

 

[Noipoi]

I've always wondered…

If Peach isn't Bowser Jr.'s mother, then who is?

Years ago I came up with the theory that Bowser tried to use magic to produce a clone of himself so he could take on both plumbers at once. But the spell backfired, producing a baby Koopa instead. So he decided to raise the child as his son. That's one of the reasons why he's so determined to get Peach, to give his "son" a mother.

It's obviously not canon, but it works for me. It's either that or Bowser just laid an egg one day

 

[Laniv]

I've always wondered…

If Peach isn't Bowser Jr.'s mother, then who is?

That was confirmed years ago!

 

[Ivander]

Bowser and Bowser Jr. seems to have as much development as Godzilla and Godzilla Jr/Minilla. We don't know who the mother is or if Godzilla even is the father, we just know that Godzilla Jr/Minilla's egg appeared out of nowhere and Godzilla takes care of him after they hatch.

On the other hand, there could also be a much more simpler answer to all this.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Though I do think some of the outfits in 6 like Juri’s and Cammy’s are great.

The outfits are GREAT. I just don't like the character models.

One character from a sports video game that I can think of is Power Pro-kun from the Power Pros video game series, who was also featured in DreamMix TV World Fighters.

You know, Kunio is in LOTS of sports games.

Dodgeball, Soccer, Baseball, Hockey, Volleyball, Basketball.

How important do you think Toon Link and the whole Toon Zelda style is to Nintendo as a whole?

I think it deserves it's rep. It's the style that has recurred in the most Zelda games.

Ngl, I still believe Bowser's brother has a place in the Mario canon.

Forget Bowser's brother. I want Bowser's father! The REAL Dry Bowser!

 

[SPEN18]

Kind of nutty to me how Nintendo was suddenly going all-out on creating new IPs during the Gamecube/GBA era, yet Brawl was more focused on adding characters who probably seemed like notable omissions from Melee.

Had it gone with more of a 'Smash 4-style' of selecting characters, Brawl probably would have been filled with folks like (for example) Kururin, Isaac, Andy, Ray MK III, Starfy, Mona, Chibi-Robo, Saki Amemiya, Barbara the Bat, Alexandra Roivas, Jonathan Raimi, and/or maybe even someone from Odama or something.

I don't think it's any conscious shift in thinking between Brawl and 4, simply a matter of bad timing for that litany of late 90s and early 00s IPs. It just has to do with Smash being behind the ball on representing the bigwigs during the time that all these new IPs were more relevant.
Brawl focused on notable omissions from Melee because...well...there were a number of notable omissions from Melee, and excluding those notables another time around would have been a poor look. But yeah, it is a bit tragic to think that had Melee been able to include more of the Warios and Dededes and Diddys of the world, and/or had a larger roster been feasible back at that time, then some of the smaller 90s/00s IPs may possibly have stood a bit better chance at Brawl's roster.

 

[NintenRob]

Actually it was Triforce Heroes which released in 2015.

That's not much better but... It's more accurate.

Triforce Heroes using the toon style was so odd. Like the art style was actually the same as Link Between Worlds, it's just the character model was slightly tweaked to look like Toon Link, but then the artwork was all much more distinctly Toon. It was weird

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Triforce Heroes using the toon style was so odd. Like the art style was actually the same as Link Between Worlds, it's just the character model was slightly tweaked to look like Toon Link, but then the artwork was all much more distinctly Toon. It was weird

I feel like the only reason why it was reused in TFH was because the art style was always used in the multiplayer Zelda games or even modes such as Four Swords.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

While Toon Link's relevance may be going away, I think the reason why he's stayed so long was because Sakurai thinks it important to keep a child link around; a quicker Link. I think it's fairly likely we'll see Toon Link or Young Link, but not Model Link unless it was made clear to Sakurai that that Link was the current smaller title version, and was going to see use for a while. Even then, Model Link only has The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening to go off of since there's only two games with that artstyle, and he isn't really in the second one. I'm not really sure if his apearances is enough to get a bead on how to go about makeing yet another child Link design, and doing so might be ultimately unnecessary in the first place.

I think if we keep the small Link going (which presumably we will since Sakurai sees merit in the idea), it'll be Toon Link again, just because he's been in every game since his debut in Smash.

The only exception I can think of is if Skull Kid happens, because then I could see Young Link being the one for trailer purposes, but I don't think Sakurai would pick veterans just based on trailer ideas for newcomers lol

 

[Golden Icarus]

I doubted it before, but I do think it’s decently possible that we’ll see “Toy Link” in the next game.

We talk about how BotW and TotK defined the Nintendo Switch and brought the Zelda series to new heights, and given previous trends it’s decently likely that the entire Zelda cast will adopt that art style in the next Smash. Link’s Awakening and Echoes didn’t reach the same level of success, but if they’re gonna have two Links, then it would make sense to have our younger Link represent the other art style that’s present on the Switch. It’s pretty much the same logic as Brawl giving us Twilight Link and Wind Waker Link.

I’m not sure if it would be my favorite direction. I still think Toon Link contrasts the nicest with adult Link in terms of design and personality. Also “Toy Link” is a psychotic name. I think I’d just want him to be called Young Link, even if that would trigger some people in the fanbase.

 

[Ivander]

Kind of nutty to me how Nintendo was suddenly going all-out on creating new IPs during the Gamecube/GBA era, yet Brawl was more focused on adding characters who probably seemed like notable omissions from Melee.

Had it gone with more of a 'Smash 4-style' of selecting characters, Brawl probably would have been filled with folks like (for example) Kururin, Isaac, Andy, Ray MK III, Starfy, Mona, Chibi-Robo, Saki Amemiya, Barbara the Bat, Alexandra Roivas, Jonathan Raimi, and/or maybe even someone from Odama or something.

We really don't know exactly what garners a new character from a new IP aside from the notably successful ones and even then, some aren't always guaranteed, especially if looking at Sakurai's words about how Fire Emblem Awakening almost didn't get in because of timing, despite Awakening being the most successful game of the franchise at the time. And in the case of ARMS and Xenoblade 2 for Ultimate, they did miss out until DLC.
Basically, it's not just a matter of popularity, but also timing too. And then you look at Sakurai's words about Shulk where he was a rare occasion as he came from a franchise that had not proven itself yet, which brings the question on how character deciding in regards to lesser IPs works and how did Xenoblade manage to slip through compared to something like Golden Sun or Rhythm Heaven(although in the latter's case, there's more to why that possibly didn't happen).
Heck, even though Sakurai didn't add in Takamaru due to him not being well-known enough outside of Japan, his words implied that he still gave Takamaru a lot of thought, which makes you wonder on if he did choose Takamaru, who might have missed out if he did get in.
At the least, there are the three cases where it wasn't a case of not enough popularity, sales or timing, but the system's limitations, which come into play in regards to these characters:

1. Dixie Kong, who was originally planned to be with Diddy Kong before technical limitations got in the way of the idea
2. Rex, who was originally the playable character while Pyra & Mythra behaved like their Xenoblade 2 counterparts before limitations kept that from happening and Sakurai went with Pyra & Mythra as a Partner changer
3. And the Chorus Kids. While the Chorus Kids themselves have not been discussed yet by Sakurai yet, with the only mention of them being from the early Gematsu leak which mentions the Kids and Chrom(who was originally planned as mentioned by Sakurai before Sakurai could not find a way to make him interesting from Marth and Ike and then choosing Robin instead), the only speculation we have on them was that they were developed for a bit(including the Rhythm Heaven icon that was found in the datamine of Smash 4), but then like what happened to the Ice Climbers, the 3DS limitations ultimately got in the way.

All in all, aside from the characters that Sakurai has openly talked about, it's only speculation on why some characters or franchises seem to have more luck than others. Though I think Sakurai does have a good idea that there are a lot of characters people do want to see, hence some of the Assist Trophies(like Isaac, Krystal and Shovel Knight), Mii Costumes(like Isaac, Saki, Skull Kid, Ray MKIII, Lip, Sans, Dante, Dragonborn and Shantae. Also Lloyd, but his costume was in the last game) and even Friend Icons(the only non-Assist trophy non-playable franchises to get icons are Rhythm Heaven/The Chorus Kids, Shantae and Panel de Pon/Lip, aside from Diskun and Dr. Kawashima from Brain Age).

Edit: Thinking about it now in regards to the characters lost to technical limitations, I'm legitimately curious on what Sakurai might be able to do with the Switch 2. Like I'm curious what advanced character he might come up with that could only happen because of the Switch 2.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Edit: Thinking about it now in regards to the characters lost to technical limitations, I'm legitimately curious on what Sakurai might be able to do with the Switch 2. Like I'm curious what advanced character he might come up with that could only happen because of the Switch 2.

I really hope Sakurai goes back to his idea for the Chorus Kids so my copium can be validated somewhat lol

I mean worked on in Smash 4 to the point Rhythm Heaven has a series icon and a Smash Run enemy--of which outside of the SSE enemies, Bacura and Pooka that are represented by Pac-Man's Namco arcade representation, and the Ghosts from Find Mii which can be represented by the Miis all belong to playable franchises--then cut for one reason or another, and then Ultimate happened and all of the newcomers were newer characters or super popular Ballot picks, and obviously there was no place for them in the DLC.

So I hope if next game returns to a more standard newcomer count, Sakurai will go back and take another look at the concept.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

The Chorus Kids could be a fun Thrice Climbers sort of deal. I think that Nicktoons game has the Powerpuff Girls as one character, so it's possible at least. Maybe not if there's a 16 player Smash like I've seen thrown around lol.

I hope Smash Run comes back too. Especially now that basically all of the series in Smash have Switch releases that use 3D models, it would be fun to get to see and fight a bunch of them in one game.

 

[Amornal1]

I think that some people are overlooking the fact that the sportsmate could be the first reveal like villager and inklings were before, mainly due to being representantion for the Nintendo Sports IP.

 

[fogbadge]

Triforce Heroes using the toon style was so odd. Like the art style was actually the same as Link Between Worlds, it's just the character model was slightly tweaked to look like Toon Link, but then the artwork was all much more distinctly Toon. It was weird

it was planned to be a four swords game at one point

 

[NintenRob]

it was planned to be a four swords game at one point

It's still unusual to me, it'd be like if the next Multiplayer Zelda game looked like Link's Awakening and Echoes of Wisdom, the toy art style, except Links face and outfit was altered to resemble Toon Link.


That's the thing, despite having Toon Link, Triforce Heroes wasn't a toon game, it was the same art style and look as A Link between Worlds

 

[DarthEnderX]

I hope Smash Run comes back too. Especially now that basically all of the series in Smash have Switch releases that use 3D models, it would be fun to get to see and fight a bunch of them in one game.

Bring back the Smash Run map as a Battle Royal. (64 players teleport in. Players run around killing creeps and collecting upgrades. Map shrinks over time. Last 4 surviving players have a Smash match.)

 

[fogbadge]

It's still unusual to me, it'd be like if the next Multiplayer Zelda game looked like Link's Awakening and Echoes of Wisdom, the toy art style, except Links face and outfit was altered to resemble Toon Link.


That's the thing, despite having Toon Link, Triforce Heroes wasn't a toon game, it was the same art style and look as A Link between Worlds

well at least many of the new characters are designed in the toon style

 

[Will]

Yall think Donkey Kong will change appearance to better match his new cartoonish design for the next game?

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Probably depends on if it’s a permanent change for the Switch 2 games moving forward.

 

[Noipoi]

Yall think Donkey Kong will change appearance to better match his new cartoonish design for the next game?

I don’t think they’ll completely redesign him, but they might tweak his facial features and proportions a bit to match the new design.

 

[Garteam]

Yall think Donkey Kong will change appearance to better match his new cartoonish design for the next game?

I'm leaning towards no, simply because a lot of work already went into DK's facial features last game and we haven't seen if DK's new design will used in a new DK game. There may also be a timing issue if development began in early 2022.

Mario games focusing graphical fidelity and new animations makes sense in the aftermath of the Mario movie's success and a decade+ of criticism over how sterile New Super Mario Bros. made the series' visuals. Sakurai has always operated more on "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and tailoring graphics to support the overall gameplay experience.