Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[CannonStreak]

What I meant to say was that most people wouldn't consider a gaming console to be a toy because of how expensive it is, even though by definition, it is one.


There's also the perception that toys are for kids only, and video game consoles are decidedly not that.

Quite sad, considering that video games can be for everyone, are they?

 

[Stratos]

As far as eligibility goes, I don't see why not.

I didn't understand this part, please clarify it for me a bit.

 

[CannonStreak]

Anyways, I must ask; wouldn't anything "Virtual" be considered a video game, especially if you can play it?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Quite sad, considering that video games can be for everyone, are they?

I was saying that video game consoles aren't considered to be "for kids only".

I didn't understand this part, please clarify it for me a bit.

I don't see why Digimon wouldn't be eligible for Super Smash Bros. because those original pet sims are video games, if very primitive ones.

Anyways, I must ask; wouldn't anything "Virtual" be considered a video game, especially if you can play it?

Anything? No since movies and TV shows are on a digital medium as well. Visual Novels are also considered to be on thin ice since a lot of them lack the interactive aspect required to be a video game. People argue about Fate's eligibility for this reason.

To be clear though, visual novels absolutely can be games, they just need to allow for players to interact with them. Slay the Princess is a good example of what I mean; to my knowledge it isn't hybridized with any other genre in any way, but players are constantly acting and reacting to the story that's presented.

 

[CannonStreak]

I was saying that video game consoles aren't considered to be "for kids only"

Huh, must have misread the thing.

Anything? No since movies and TV shows are on a digital medium as well. Visual Novels are also considered to be on thin ice since a lot of them lack the interactive aspect required to be a video game. People argue about Fate's eligibility for this reason.

To be clear though, visual novels absolutely can be games, they just need to allow for players to interact with them. Slay the Princess is a good example of what I mean; to my knowledge it isn't hybridized with any other genre in any way, but players are constantly acting and reacting to the story that's presented.

Okay, I did not mean anything, so that was a blunder. I was not taking about TV Shows and movies, anyway.

 

[Golden Icarus]

You seem to take offense that Peach is being compared to Toad or Bandana Waddle Dee. But like... Why? They're cool characters that are generally well regarded. You're unironically now applying that bad faith argument to other characters. You liked my post when I implied they had no sauce, but like, I actively want all those characters. I think they do have sauce. I don't actually believe any of them are boring. Heck look at my sig, several of those characters are there (and others would be there if I had more room).

I notice that the majority of my posts end up two times longer than I intend them to be because I worry about folks getting offended when I take a shot at their character, or argue in favor of a controversial concept.

I’ve made more than a few posts laying out why I believe Toad keeps getting rejected for Smash and I always feel the need to clarify that I’ve supported him avidly ever since Smash 4. That’s the main reason why I’ve familiarized myself with the detractors’ points. Most Impa, Dee, Toad, Dixie and Meowth supporters seem to have, or at least should have pretty thick skin by now, but some still seem to get riled up over hearing someone’s take about why such a perfect character with every merit in the world gets passed up time and time again. Clearly someone should be acknowledging the counter arguments.

Every character deserves a good amount of scrutiny and it’s frustrating when playing devil’s advocate is taken more personally than it should be, but I’ve accepted that adding 2-3 qualifiers to every statement I make is how I have to get my points through sometimes.

“Yes Falco is a classic character and undeniably popular and can be added more simply because of his clone status and he was even my main in Brawl, so I would never want him to be cut, but [insert core argument].”

 

[Stratos]

I don't see why Digimon wouldn't be eligible for Super Smash Bros. because those original pet sims are video games, if very primitive ones.

This is good to read and actually perfect. So there is a possibility that Agumon will come to the Super Smash Bros. series since he is the mascot of the Digimon franchise.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

This is good to read and actually perfect. So there is a possibility that Agumon will come to the Super Smash Bros. series since he is the mascot of the Digimon franchise.

It's definitely a possibility, it just depends on what Namco wants to prioritize, since they have a lot of franchises they could throw into the ring.

With that said, since Digimon still gets games semi-regularly, I would think it would be in a decent spot at least? But there are still franchises like the Tales games, Dark Souls, and POTENTIALLY Taiko no Tatsujin in competition with it?

 

[NintenRob]

The whole conclusion the thread made was people saying a character would be too boring is a bad argument because it's relative.

The whole point of NintenRob 's question was to show how silly that mindset really was by bringing in already existing characters to the discussion. They were using Peach as an example of how ludicrous the idea was. For the record, they clearly agree that Peach is a cool character. That was the whole point of bringing her up.

You got so defensive that I have wonder if you actually understood what was being asked. Yeah people probably would decry Peach as too boring is she wasn't already in. They do that for everyone! They did it for Ryu. They did it for Cloud. They recently did it for Isabelle, Sephiroth and Hero during the Ultimate cycle. That was the whole point. People say that to characters they don't like to dissuade people from bringing them up. Peach isn't so huge that she's magically immune to that. Not everyone likes Peach just like how not everyone likes Mario, Link and Pikachu. It isn't a logical argument. It's a dishonest one. Heck I hear "Mario is boring" all the time whenever he's playable in a game.

You seem to take offense that Peach is being compared to Toad or Bandana Waddle Dee. But like... Why? They're cool characters that are generally well regarded. You're unironically now applying that bad faith argument to other characters. You liked my post when I implied they had no sauce, but like, I actively want all those characters. I think they do have sauce. I don't actually believe any of them are boring. Heck look at my sig, several of those characters are there (and others would be there if I had more room). You can argue, "well Peach got in and they didn't," but that's not a good argument for several reasons that I don't have the patience to get into here.

I'm going to give you some advice. People like Peach. She's cool. But you don't have to tear other characters down to defend her. That's how we get memoryman like situations where everyone hated Daisy just because he wouldn't stop. It's how Impa almost had vitriolic reaction on the boards, but @Diddy Kong grew and changed as a person (and stopped trolling LMAO). Don't think so little of certain characters that even a comparison is an insult.

Cheers for this post. It basically summarises my points.

Obviously I like Peach, I'd argue I like her more than most, especially how she is in Smash, and was pretty keen to see her get her own game and step out of the damsel role, but that damsel role is exactly why I used her as an example.


Peach is super recognisable, obviously, but as far as core cast of Mario characters, she's on the lower end of the popularity due to being relegated to the damsel role so often and being seen by many as a ditzy princess. If she was added in Melee due to them prioritising Bowser, I'm certain she would have many detractors in the Brawl speculation scene saying they wouldn't add her cause she's just a damsel and not a fighter, that she would be boring using stuff like spinoff sport stuff.

Obviously none of that happened, because she did get in Melee and it turned out to be one of the best interpretations of the character to date ("oh, did I win" is still my favourite victory quote in the game). But that was kinda the point of the hypothetical, to discuss characters who people would call boring even though Smash has clearly proven otherwise

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Maybe if Bamco wants to try milking Omnimon some more.

 

[Jave]

On the topic of bosses, I'm not sure of the idea of promoting bosses to playable status, as most of them probably wouldn't work as playable in the traditional Smash sense.

HOWEVER.

I do fully support the idea of a Reverse Boss Rush mode where you control each of the bosses and you have to defeat a team of characters. That would be super cool.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'd be fine with least using some bosses for an asymmetric Smash game mode, like a few fighters against a Metal Gear Rex for example. Bosses/huge characters wouldn't necessarily have to be that complicated or even specifically balanced, just fun and tough enough when controlling against typical playable fighters.

 

[NintenRob]

My pipeline dream (that will never happen) is that every character has a unique boss encounter at the end of classic mode and I love trying to think who would fight who.

Stuff like:
Luigi - King Boo
Peach - Grape
Meta Knight - Galacta Knight
Link - Ganon

But for the whole roster

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

On the topic of bosses, I'm not sure of the idea of promoting bosses to playable status, as most of them probably wouldn't work as playable in the traditional Smash sense.

HOWEVER.

I do fully support the idea of a Reverse Boss Rush mode where you control each of the bosses and you have to defeat a team of characters. That would be super cool.

I think the latter idea is what's being presented.
Like UMvC3's Galactus Mode.

 

[Stratos]

It's definitely a possibility, it just depends on what Namco wants to prioritize, since they have a lot of franchises they could throw into the ring.

With that said, since Digimon still gets games semi-regularly, I would think it would be in a decent spot at least? But there are still franchises like the Tales games, Dark Souls, and POTENTIALLY Taiko no Tatsujin in competition with it?

Maybe.

 

[fogbadge]

Maybe if Bamco wants to try milking Omnimon some more.

I'd take it

 

[RileyXY1]

On the topic of bosses, I'm not sure of the idea of promoting bosses to playable status, as most of them probably wouldn't work as playable in the traditional Smash sense.

HOWEVER.

I do fully support the idea of a Reverse Boss Rush mode where you control each of the bosses and you have to defeat a team of characters. That would be super cool.

That did happen in WOL's final battle, where you actually take control of Master Hand and get to take down an entire army of fighter clones.

 

[CannonStreak]

That did happen in WOL's final battle, where you actually take control of Master Hand and get to take down an entire army of fighter clones.

Yeah, I know, even though this post wasn't aimed toward me. The question is though to me is that if we were given the choice, I wonder how fun it could be to play as Crazy Hand?

 

[Jave]

That did happen in WOL's final battle, where you actually take control of Master Hand and get to take down an entire army of fighter clones.

Honestly I had forgotten about this when I made my post. Probably because I only went through WOL twice and it was so long ago.

Would love to see it with every boss, though. I want to play as Monster Ganon.

 

[chinkuru]

There is no possible discussion about Digimon not being eligible for Smash Bros being in the saga Mr Game & Watch and ROB, furthermore,
apart from the v-pet, Digital Monster Ver. S: for Sega Saturn came out in 1998, Digimon World came out in Japan in January 1999 and the anime in March of that year.

 

[maf91186]

Question: Do we think amiibo are done?

 

[fogbadge]

Question: Do we think amiibo are done?

it does feel like they’re being fazed out. so I think it might be. switch 2 may only be compatible with them via older joy cons

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

On the topic of bosses, I'm not sure of the idea of promoting bosses to playable status, as most of them probably wouldn't work as playable in the traditional Smash sense.

I think a decent amount could actually. Ridley obviously does, but I think The Hands, Dracula, Ganon, Marx, and Tabuu could also work quite well if given a fleshed out moveset (though obviously some would need a size reduction and/or proper hitboxes). Porky could work too, but he'd need his mech design from Earthbound rather than Mother 3, and Petey could as well, but I'd remove the cages if we were to actually do that.

Now, most of these don't really make sense to make the jump, but hypothetically I think it's pretty possible.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Question: Do we think amiibo are done?

I feel like it could continue but I feel like it’s not 100%. Especially since Nintendo are the only ones left that does Toys to life.

Especially since TOTK only has guilder designs for exclusive stuff since majority of the unique rewards became available normally. EoW didn’t have unique amiibo.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Question: Do we think amiibo are done?

Yesn't.

They're still being made and I assume they're still profitable. We got several new ones this year. So they're slowing down but not done.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Wouldn't be surprised if Amiibo pops up here and there like it has the last few years, since Nintendo seems to like having a figurine brand at the very least.

I definitely think there's still demand for whatever new smash amiibo come out, even if it's only for collectors.

 

[fogbadge]

Happy new year

 

[Golden Icarus]

I’d bet the Smash line of Amiibo will continue to be a thing, even if it is fazed out of other games.

After making amiibo for Everyone Is Here! it’ll probably be hard to resist making one for every newcomer from here on out. Surely that’s easy money from folks who can’t help but collect them all. Actually not just easy money - I’d wager that a loud minority will protest if they don’t continue making them.

The Miis aren’t a physical product, but I imagine amiibo will be fazed out in a similar way. Most games don’t feature them, they aren’t promoted all that much and we hardly associate them with the company’s branding anymore, but they haven’t disappeared and I doubt they will anytime soon. Even if the next console doesn’t have an amiibo reader on every controller again, then they’ll probably sell a special attachment for the few games that do offer amiibo support.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Playable Assists don't make any sense. These characters were decidedly not added as fighters for one reason or another and put as summons as a consolation prize of sorts.
To have them playable in any form, even with a restricted move pool defeats the entire purpose of their existence.

If it's in some kind of side-mode, what difference does it make?

Break targets or something with a 2 move version of Guile. Who cares?

Instead, make it like Mahvel 1 or Pokkén, or most relevant, Fraymakers where you can select an Assist to use throughout the fight tied to a meter.

No reason it can't be both. FSes are both an item and a meter after all.

If counts, so does a virtual pet.

This.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

It just feels like a monkey's paw for people who want an AT to become playable.

When people say they want Waluigi or Isaac or Knuckles or whoever playable, they want them to be able to fight against the already-playable roster, not just each other.

I don't know about that, but some more interactive assist trophies would be nice.
Like being able to tell Bomberman where to put his bombs, or the Totally Not Pong Assist Trophy where to throw the balls, or Skull Kid which spell to summon. Stuff like that.

Of course Bomberman and Skull Kid in particular are very much characters I'd rather see be made into fighters, but just as an example, those types of ATs being made more controllable would be more fun, I think.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Question: Do we think amiibo are done?

...yes and no. The thing is, I think the purpose of amiibo has shifted significantly.

The whole toys-to-life aspect? I think we can safely say that's very much in its latter twilight era, to the point that it wouldn't entirely surprise me if their only functionality in the Switch 2 era were as little more than minor cosmetic bonuses or something of the like. That being said, the fact that the Switch 2 is supposed to be backwards compatible makes me doubt they'd remove NFC compatibility (just because a decent number of Switch games featured that as a minor mechanic, like BotW's bonus items and the like.) Minor bonuses here and there don't seem out of the question, though.

That said, I think an underdiscussed element of amiibo going forward is their role as merchandise. Nintendo's obviously got a lot of other merchandise out there, but I think amiibo hold a unique spot for your more collector-oriented types given they're decently high-quality collector's pieces rather than toys, clothes, trinkets, or other things of the like. Seems like it helps to explain the release of cross-promotional amiibo (like the Samus and E.M.M.I dual pack), the continued interest in completing the Smash series with Sora last year, and then headlining series like Mario, Zelda and Splatoon still getting stuff. I wouldn't necessarily bet on the next Smash title continuing the amiibo line, but... I guess it's not entirely unprecedented?

...also, I think it bears mentioning that Super Nintendo World's wristbands are technically amiibo. They still have functionality with games and the like, and it'd surprise me if they were to be phased out so soon.

 

[Guynamednelson]

or Skull Kid which spell to summon.

Actually, SK is part of the problem I have with a playable AT mode too: Several ATs really, really aren't diet fighters. They'd still be screwed out of playability in the event we get a mode where you pick an assist to play as rather than someone from the normal roster.

 

[CannonStreak]

If it was a playable Assist Trophy mode you guys were talking about on the last page, I say I do not care much about that. I mean, on one hand, it would be kind of nice, but on the other hand, I think having Assist Trophies playable in such a mode and just that mode would be pointless.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

What I think is that Amiibo on Switch 2 will have the same fate as Miis where they are slowly phased out or not even much of a focus but they still exist or work for select titles such as Smash and backwards compatibility.

Other games will still get new ones outside of Smash but it wouldn’t be as guaranteed compared to how it was on even Switch 1.

 

[smashkirby]

An idea I've been thinking about for a while, what do you think the roster would be like if it was made by the Capcom VS team? We get so caught up on "this character is necessary" or "this character deserves to be in the most", I think it'd be nice to try and take a different perspective for once.
What I mean is, while smash tends to go for the 'perfect' roster (characters that have proven staying power and are representative of their series), Capcom Vs games usually go for whatever makes for a fun and interesting roster for that particular game, which means a lot more strange inclusions and a much more rotating cast than smash ever has.

Some weird decisions capcom vs games have had:
-Megaman, despite being the company mascot, has only been in 2 VS titles. The megaman series is most often represented by spin off characters, Like Zero and Tron Bon. Roll is playable in 2 vs games despite only ever being playable in a bonus mode of a psp remake of the first megaman game. This would basically be like if Mario wasn't in smash and instead the series was represented by Paper Luigi and Fawful.

-Black Widow was considered for MVC3, but was cut due to "too many gun people". Hagar and Zangeif can't be in the same game because their both big grappler guys. Capcom games tend to prioritize aesthetically different character archetypes in their roster, even if they mechanically play differently, so I'm sure the swordie haters are happy with this one.

-Several franchises are represented either solely by the main villain, or the main villain got in ages before their actual protagonist. Shuma Gorath before Dr Strange, Dr Doom without the Fantastic 4, Blackheard before Daredevil. Like if Skull Kid got in before Link, or Dark Matter without Kirby.

-They couldnt pick just one Fantastic 4 character for the roster, so they just used Super Skrull because he could copy all of them. Like if they couldn't pick just one Pokemon, so they added Ditto and he turned into every pokemon. Aditionally, when they had trouble getting the rights to Iron Man, they just used War Machine because he looks exactly like Iron Man but gray.

-Cyberbots, the series about giant fighting robots, is represented by one of the robot pilots and he has a completely original moveset. The closest equevalent i can think of is saying "Olimar is too small, so pikmin will be represented by a playable SS Drake".

-MVC2 just had 3 totally made up characters. One is a cut Darkstalkers character and the others are rumored to be (by me), so like imagine if WaPeach just got into the next smash basically.

-Bone Claw Wolverine... i guess this isnt too differant from Young Link, actually.

-Judging by how Darkstalkers gets treated by capcom... if you are a hot lady you are 10x more likely to get into crossover rosters.

- I kinda don't think they would feel strapped to "Princess" Zelda. Sheik is actually a very MVC styled pick in a vacuum, to me, and I could see them throwing in someone like Tetra too. With Peach already on the roster (duh) and fruitful options for other mage characters I think it'd be interesting if they went for a subversive depiction of Zelda over the standard one. Depends how big the roster is though.

- This team really loves Roll, so I feel like a "cute" girl character like Lip or Ashley could be under consideration. Panel de Pon strikes me as an older series Capcom may take an interest in, and it'd be a more eccentric choice so I'd lean further in her direction.

- Paying further mind to series that may be beloved among Capcom developers, I think Sin & Punishment is a big one. Saki is a perfect fit for a game like this, his rule of cool - futuristic laser gunsword, 80s/90s anime OVA aesthetic - overlaps heavily with some of Capcom's own favorites.

- MVC is less concerned about the protagonist or avatar and more about which is the most compelling or identifiable character. Min-Min over Spring Man always struck me as a "what Capcom would have done" move. I also feel that the likes of Chrom and Edelgard would have made it over Robin and Byleth respectively. And maybe Villager would have been skirted over in favor of Nook and/or Isabelle.

- In respect to Fire Emblem I think we would have gotten someone like Tiki by now too. Not only does she play into the previous point about "cute" characters depending on which version you're using but I think Capcom would treat a recurring face like her more as a pseudo-mascot. Branching off toward other Nintendo RPGs, I think Xenoblade would look about the same but maybe we'd get Fiora or even Metal Face, assuming....

- Ridley would have actually been "big", I suspect the character size differences would push further extreme.

- Star Fox and F-Zero strike me as Darkstalkers parallels in Smash already, so I think they would continue to be strong character-driven forces. Perhaps we'd even get a second or third F-Zero character like Samurai Goroh. I think those characters are designed perfectly for a fighting game. Same with Kid Icarus, honestly - I think Pit and Palutena would have both made it onto the roster still. Pit actually evokes MVC2's choice of SonSon very strongly.

You know, this actually ties into something I've been wanting to ask for a while now. If Nintendo vs. Capcom ever became a reality, what would you all think of Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Isaac, a Rhythm Heaven character, Waluigi, etc. all ended up making their fighting game debuts THERE instead of Smash Bros.?

Basically, my question is 'How would you all react if the most-wanted Smash Bros. characters debuted in Nintendo vs. Capcom before Smash Bros.?'

 

[Louie G.]

You know, this actually ties into something I've been wanting to ask for a while now. If Nintendo vs. Capcom ever became a reality, what would you all think of Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Isaac, a Rhythm Heaven character, Waluigi, etc. all ended up making their fighting game debuts THERE instead of Smash Bros.?

Well, I think a couple of these would work out pretty nicely but I don’t know if Bandana Dee or Dixie Kong are the right choices for this kind of game. Like, even though they’re already in Smash I would much rather just see Dedede or Meta Knight again. And Dixie over Diddy is kinda weird however we slice it (and 3 DK characters for this particular game is probably too much).

Capcom choices are definitely indulgent and weird but I think if we’re gonna go out of bounds it’d be something kinda crazy like Dark Matter Swordsman or Cranky Kong. These two are a bit too normal to be fun indulgent Capcom picks and a little too random to be bare essentials without other characters in tow.

Isaac, someone from Rhythm Heaven (maybe Karate Joe in this instance), maybe even Waluigi I can visualize quite well though. They did Doronjo in Tatsunoko vs Capcom so I feel like Wario and Waluigi are natural fits for Capcom wackiness… Wario is probably one of the characters I would be most excited to see interpreted into this format.

 

[smashkirby]

Well, I think a couple of these would work out pretty nicely but I don’t know if Bandana Dee or Dixie Kong are the right choices for this kind of game. Like, even though they’re already in Smash I would much rather just see Dedede or Meta Knight again. And Dixie over Diddy is kinda weird however we slice it (and 3 DK characters for this particular game is probably too much).

Capcom choices are definitely indulgent and weird but I think if we’re gonna go out of bounds it’d be something kinda crazy like Dark Matter Swordsman or Cranky Kong. These two are a bit too normal to be fun indulgent Capcom picks and a little too random to be bare essentials without other characters in tow.

Isaac, someone from Rhythm Heaven (maybe Karate Joe in this instance), maybe even Waluigi I can visualize quite well though. They did Doronjo in Tatsunoko vs Capcom so I feel like Wario and Waluigi are natural fits for Capcom wackiness… Wario is probably one of the characters I would be most excited to see interpreted into this format.

You know, I was wondering if I should have specified this earlier, but for B.W.D. and Dixie? I should have also shared the hypothetical of Dedede and Diddy being added alongside Kirby and DK...

Still though, Capcom's self-indulging wackiness is partially why I felt like maybe those guys coming to "NvC" wouldn't be TOO out there of an idea.

I mean, with folks like Lip and Saki being possible, as well as folks like Takamaru and Captain Rainbow? I could see it, you know?

 

[Louie G.]

I mean, with folks like Lip and Saki being possible, as well as folks like Takamaru and Captain Rainbow? I could see it, you know?

Yeah I feel you, I just don't see Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong as characters that would appeal to Capcom all that much. They feel more like "Smash" characters than "Vs Capcom" characters, if you see where I'm coming from. But I could be off the mark on that one.

If Diddy was added, I feel like their next step would be Cranky or K. Rool for further variety sake. They usually try to maximize pretty diverse playstyles, and those two bleed a bit more dynamic "character" - same with Dee getting passed over for Meta Knight, or some rando like Magolor or whatever instead.

...yknow, I realize through this I'm also projecting my own biases on what I believe makes a compelling fighting game character, but I think it's moreso syncing up here where I kind of prefer MVC's approach to character selection these days.

 

[Noipoi]

Happy new year Next Smash thread!

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Happy New Year!

And alongside that, Happy Switch 2 Year!