Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

So, how do you think Sakurai views echoes in regards to franchise representation? And to clarify, I don't mean "unique echoes" like Young Link, Wolf or Isabelle.

It's really easy for fans to look at Pit, Dark Pit and Palutena and say Kid Icarus has three characters. Do you think Sakurai sees it the same way? Does he see it as two characters and a bonus?

I honestly don't think sakurai thinks like that when it comes to smash

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

ALTTP/EOW Zelda: She will have a new move from EOW but still mostly the same

It could also be a reskinned down B aka the move she already uses to summon something akin to an echo.

 

[Gengar84]

Impa/Sheik: I feel like it will be one or the other.

I really don’t see the point in cutting Sheik if they’re going to just give her moveset to Impa. At that point, just make Impa an echo of Sheik. I’m not sure whether that’s what you’re suggesting but I’ve seen others bring up this idea. I feel like that would just upset Sheik fans for no real gain. Impa is my most wanted Zelda character and I’d be pretty bummed out if this is how we got her. People talk about MvC:U’s “characters as functions” argument a lot and I feel like cutting Sheik just to give her moveset to Impa is one of the biggest examples of that.

I could accept losing Sheik for a completely unique Impa due to time constraints. Between Hyrule Warriors and Age of Calamity, Impa has three full movesets to pull from that are completely different than Sheik so I don’t think she has to have Sheik’s Smash moveset at all, echo or otherwise. Sheik is one of my favorite Smash characters and Zelda is already struggling with unique movesets so I’d hate to cut one of the few completely original movesets we have.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Impa/Sheik: I feel like it will be one or the other.

If it's "one or the other", Sheik wins every time since she's an established Smash character already and one with quite a lot of legacy due to her competitive history as well.

If it were any other fighting game franchise, I could see Sheik getting replaced with Impa to try and bring new sauce to the Sheikah archetype, but Smash isn't "any other fighting game franchise". This isn't the kind of thing Sakurai does. That's what Street Fighter does.

 

[Folezicle Lives!]

3D fighter actually

Regardless you had Virtua Fighter be the first

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah the writing is atrocious. I'm not sure what happened to Nintendo during the Switch era but the writing of their games has become so bad it's an active turn-off.
I can't figure out why. They used to be quite good at that.

Well, with M&L at least, I'm guessing it's because it's a different company making it. No AlphaDream, no AlphaDream writing.

 

[Will]

I think there are certain characters who have more of an identity in Smash than their home franchise.

Most people probably think of when I say that, but I also think fits in that category too. I was thinking about it since the Impa vs Sheik comment; I personally think they can coexist since they apply Sheikah techniques differently not to mention 90% of sheik’s moveset was made-up just for smash.

Her Ultimate design is an amalgamation of almost all current Zelda representation. She’s wearing the Sheikah set from Breath of the Wild, voiced by the same Smash Zelda who’s supposed be based on A Link Between Worlds, but her only canon appearance was in Ocarina of Time 25 years ago.

Call me crazy but I think Sheik is a safe pick.

 

[Diddy Kong]

My personal predictions on the Zelda characters.

BOTW/TOTK Link: More elements from those games but not a complete redesign.

ALTTP/EOW Zelda: She will have a new move from EOW but still mostly the same. Maybe Side B gets changed.

TOTK Ganondorf: Takes lot from this game and even previous games but still retains stuff from previous Smash Ganondorf.

Impa/Sheik: I feel like it will be one or the other.

Toon Link: Mostly the same.

Either Skull Kid or a BOTW Champion

The Impa / Sheik thing is dangerous

As someone who actively and always openly advocated for this since before Smash 4 , just know people are gonna disagree.

I'd personally sacrifice Sheik for Impa instantly. I see this as a similar situation how we got Young Link in Melee then Toon Link in Brawl. Taken Impa gets a move set similar to Sheik, which she doesn't have to..

Am of the opinion Sheik can definitely be cut next time. I see Toon Link as a likelier character to stay than her even. I'm just way less vocal about this all.

But to be fair, if they'd be similar anyway why not keep both? I'm a huge Impa supporter and at this point I'd accept her as a Echo, or Melee / Isabelle type of clone.

But good list regardless. Again, if they pick Skull Kid I sort of expect Young Link to be chosen over Toon Link.

But curious here, would anyone be mad or weirded out if both Young Link and Toon Link returned? Or got cut?

It could also be a reskinned down B aka the move she already uses to summon something akin to an echo.

YES!

THIS. EXACTLY!

Down B is now the Phantom, make that the Dark Nut instead and increase its size (in Echoes of Wisdom canon; their level) and instead of a sword use an axe.

Echoes of Wisdom represented. ✅️

However I'd also advocate for her Tri Rod spin as a Neutral Air attack and Dash Attack. Maybe jab too.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, while I’d hate to lose Sheik as she’s one of my favorite Smash characters, I could at least understand her being lower priority and missing the roster if they go with a completely original Impa that plays nothing like Sheik. If Impa is going to inherit Sheik’s moveset or even be an Isabelle style semiclone, I don’t understand the logic of cutting her. It wouldn’t be that much more work to keep her around and just make Impa the echo or clone.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yeah, while I’d hate to lose Sheik as she’s one of my favorite Smash characters, I could at least understand her being lower priority and missing the roster if they go with a completely original Impa that plays nothing like Sheik. If Impa is going to inherit Sheik’s moveset or even be an Isabelle style semiclone, I don’t understand the logic of cutting her. It wouldn’t be that much more work to keep her around and just make Impa the echo or clone.

Am suspecting she won't be a Echo. She would've been included in either Smash 4 or Ultimate then. No reason not to. I don't think she had the same votes as Chrom or Daisy, but am pretty sure she had Dark Samus beat. And a Zelda newcomer would probably be very welcomed compared to the series who got new Echo inclusions. Knowing very well these series where either well represented (Mario and Fire Emblem) or got a newcomer that same game (Metroid with Ridley).

Same applies for Dixie and Funky honestly.

I also think we can suspect Impa to be mostly unique therefore. Or a semi clone at worst.

 

[Gengar84]

Am suspecting she won't be a Echo. She would've been included in either Smash 4 or Ultimate then. No reason not to. I don't think she had the same votes as Chrom or Daisy, but am pretty sure she had Dark Samus beat. And a Zelda newcomer would probably be very welcomed compared to the series who got new Echo inclusions. Knowing very well these series where either well represented (Mario and Fire Emblem) or got a newcomer that same game (Metroid with Ridley).

Same applies for Dixie and Funky honestly.

I also think we can suspect Impa to be mostly unique therefore. Or a semi clone at worst.

I could accept that then. My biggest hope at that point is that she uses her design and one of her movesets from Hyrule Warriors, though that’s unlikely admittedly. I’d also gladly take her Skyward Sword design since that was what her Hyrule Warriors design was largely based on. I’ll mod Sheik back into Smash as a skin of Impa or Ryu Hyabusa if I have to lol.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I could accept that then. My biggest hope at that point is that she uses her design and one of her movesets from Hyrule Warriors, though that’s unlikely admittedly. I’d also gladly take her Skyward Sword design since that was what her Hyrule Warriors design was largely based on. I’ll mod Sheik back into Smash as a skin of Impa or Ryu Hyabusa if I have to lol.

I honestly don't even think it's that much unlikely myself. Impa being based on Hyrule Warriors / Age of Calamity I mean.

Sure if never happened before. But there's always the exception to the rule. If there's one rule with Sakurai ever since Smash 4 or so, is to expect the unexpected.

Also fan demand might just make it happen. Mainline Zelda games tend to flow in a similar direction in regard of characters and you name it. Spin offs offer a chance for other playable characters. In a case of Zelda, what other options do they even have?

It's not weird that the 3 most suggested Zelda characters are Midna, Skull Kid and Impa. Impa being amongst them showcases her popularity and demand.

Sure they can go out of their way and say, base Impa purely around Skyward Sword and maybe the way the Yiga foot soldiers fight in BotW / TotK, but why NOT go for a little inspiration with the Hyrule Warriors games?

I also like to remember everyone that this is basically what everyone is asking for Waluigi too. To base him around the Mario spin off series and what not. Why would Waluigi be the sole exception? And not Impa ?

Or do we wanna keep adding new versions of Link and Zelda every time ?

 

[CardiganBoy]

I still think Toon Link has a lot untaped potential for a unique moveset rather than just being Light Link V2, in Brawl I get him being a clone because he was a late addition, but him having minimal or no differences in subsequent games is disappointing, no Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf, Grappling Hook, Ballad of Gales Final Smash, anyone? heck they could've aslo pull stuff from the DS Zelda titles.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I honestly don't even think it's that much unlikely myself. Impa being based on Hyrule Warriors / Age of Calamity I mean.

Sure if never happened before. But there's always the exception to the rule. If there's one rule with Sakurai ever since Smash 4 or so, is to expect the unexpected.

Also fan demand might just make it happen. Mainline Zelda games tend to flow in a similar direction in regard of characters and you name it. Spin offs offer a chance for other playable characters. In a case of Zelda, what other options do they even have?

It's not weird that the 3 most suggested Zelda characters are Midna, Skull Kid and Impa. Impa being amongst them showcases her popularity and demand.

Sure they can go out of their way and say, base Impa purely around Skyward Sword and maybe the way the Yiga foot soldiers fight in BotW / TotK, but why NOT go for a little inspiration with the Hyrule Warriors games?

I also like to remember everyone that this is basically what everyone is asking for Waluigi too. To base him around the Mario spin off series and what not. Why would Waluigi be the sole exception? And not Impa ?

Or do we wanna keep adding new versions of Link and Zelda every time ?

I think the two things that make Hyrule Warriors Impa unlikely are that she's not cannon, and more importantly, there's a decent chance she's partially owned by Team Ninja.

She's also very much not the character that's in the mainline games, so recognizably is an issue as it is for the other one-off characters, and that kinda goes for Skyward Sword Impa as well...which I guess is a third thing...

 

[BuckleyTim]

Is Hyrule warriors 2 non-canon? I thought it was a weird technically-canon alt timeline at the end of the day.

 

[Kirbeh]

What about getting our first playable Vanillaware character in Smash Bros?

Anything Vanillaware would make me happy but outside of 13 Sentinels, I doubt there's much chance. Odd as the last minute spirit nod was, I'm not really confident in 13 Sentinels either tbh.

 

[Gengar84]

Impa’s one of those characters that’s only conditionally one of my most wanted. I love her in Hyrule Warriors and Skyward Sword but I’m mostly indifferent to her otherwise. That’s the weird thing about recurring characters that are so different between versions. So someone like Impa, Midna or Urbosa would be safer requests for me because I know what I’m getting with them. It’s kind of weird to call Impa my most wanted Zelda character when I only really want specific versions of her.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Is Hyrule warriors 2 non-canon? I thought it was a weird technically-canon alt timeline at the end of the day.

meh, Zelda is filled with time travel shenanigans, i dont see the problem with saying this is a different timeline branch.

 

[Kirbeh]

Impa really is a bit of an odd/tricky case.

Her support didn't really start until the debut of her Skyward Sword incarnation and even then I think it's fair to say she was pretty niche. She was competing with Ghirahim who I want to say had the edge over her back then iirc. And on top of that SS was one of the more divisive titles so the support base was hampered by that too.

Things didn't start picking up for her until Hyrule Warriors, which also seems to be the version of the character lots of Impa supporters actually want.

She's only continued to grow in popularity since, with her AoC version also being another version people support pretty strongly.

Much like Zelda characters as a whole though, people seem to be pretty divided on which Impa we should get.

I think she's in the best position she's ever been in but still far from a guarantee.

 

[Laniv]

They should add old woman Impa

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

20+ years to get another Zelda character only for her (or him) to come from a spin-off that's actually a game from a different series in a Zelda-themed skin would sting a lot for me, not gonna lie.
Even more since there's a ton of options from actual Zelda games old and new that people have been vocal about for years.

 

[Gengar84]

20+ years to get another Zelda character only for her (or him) to come from a spin-off that's actually a game from a different series in a Zelda-themed skin would sting a lot for me, not gonna lie.
Even more since there's a ton of options from actual Zelda games old and new that people have been vocal about for years.

I mean, Impa doesn’t actually come from Hyrule Warriors, it’s just my favorite version of her. Plus, she’s essentially a modified Skyward Sword design so it’s close to what she’s been in the mainline games. My friend’s most wanted Smash character is Lana from Hyrule Warriors, which is exclusive to that game. I think that would probably bother a lot more people and be a kind of confusing choice, even if she’d be fun. It makes sense to me to reference Hyrule Warriors for existing side characters like Impa since it’s the only time they’ve ever been playable or had a particular moveset they could pull from. Good news for me is if they keep Cloud, HW Impa makes a pretty great model and voice swap mod over him.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

20+ years to get another Zelda character only for her (or him) to come from a spin-off that's actually a game from a different series in a Zelda-themed skin would sting a lot for me, not gonna lie.
Even more since there's a ton of options from actual Zelda games old and new that people have been vocal about for years.

I mean, they kinda established those other Zelda characters as assist trophies and they are fine in that role.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I also like to remember everyone that this is basically what everyone is asking for Waluigi too. To base him around the Mario spin off series and what not. Why would Waluigi be the sole exception? And not Impa ?

Because there's a big difference between Waluigi getting spin-off MATERIAL from games Nintendo made in-house and Impa's entire visual identity as a Smash character being based on a spin-off made by Omega Force and Team Ninja?

 

[Gengar84]

I do agree with the sentiment that Zelda could use a few more unique playable characters though, whether they’re based on Hyrule Warriors or not. The series has a lot of beloved characters with unique gameplay potential (as shown in HW). We haven’t had a truly unique Zelda character since Melee and even in that game, two of the newcomers were clones.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I mean, Impa doesn’t actually come from Hyrule Warriors, it’s just my favorite version of her. Plus, she’s essentially a modified Skyward Sword design so it’s close to what she’s been in the mainline games. My friend’s most wanted Smash character is Lana from Hyrule Warriors, which is exclusive to that game. I think that would probably bother a lot more people and be a kind of confusing choice, even if she’d be fun. It makes sense to me to reference Hyrule Warriors for existing side characters like Impa since it’s the only time they’ve ever been playable or had a particular moveset they could pull from.

Aren't her abilities almost entirely made up? It's been a long time since I've played Skyward Sword but I don't recall her having a naginata there.
Personally I'd much prefer for Smash to go in its own direction.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Aren't her abilities almost entirely made up? It's been a long time since I've played Skyward Sword but I don't recall her having a naginata there.
Personally I'd much prefer for Smash to go in its own direction.

The naginata is made up for Hyrule Warriors. But Smash uses cues from spin offs all the time so I think that part is irrelevant.

 

[Gengar84]

Aren't her abilities almost entirely made up? It's been a long time since I've played Skyward Sword but I don't recall her having a naginata there.
Personally I'd much prefer for Smash to go in its own direction.

I don’t remember her ever being shown fighting in a mainline Zelda game though she’s clearly depicted as a warrior in several games. I think the naginata and greatsword both work well for her. Age of Calamity also made up a moveset for her.

As for her design, this is what I’m referring to when I say Hyrule Warriors Impa is heavily based on Skyward Sword. She’s even got the same feathers on her waist you can’t see in this image.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, they kinda established those other Zelda characters as assist trophies and they are fine in that role.

You could say the same about Dark Samus, a character who hasn't appeared since 2007 and her last appearance guaranteed she'll be deader than dead so it'd be awkward to finally bring her back for MP4.

But .

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don’t remember her ever being shown fighting in a mainline Zelda game though she’s clearly depicted as a warrior in several games

She has some cool barrier magic in Skyward Sword and she beats up some guards in Echoes of Wisdom.

Impa, when young, is usually portrayed as a competent combatant but we rarely see it.

 

[Gengar84]

I wonder if Ryu Hyabusa getting in increases the chances of seeing Hyrule Warriors Impa. Hyabusa joining means that Smash will already be working with Koei Tecmo. That game has so many awesome songs that would be great for Smash too.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm still just not convinced on Impa - I unno, like she's a perfectly viable choice but perhaps it's the fact few of her mainline roles really jump out at me and she typically plays more supporting roles. Her Skyward Sword design was pretty compelling, but I can't see them falling back on that now. I'm really convinced next game they will want to capitalize as much as possible on the Switch-era portrayals.

I'd like it to click for me, but there's a divide here that still convinces me it's unlikely to happen. I still don't really have a better answer for you, since much of Impa's demand came partially from a disinterest / distrust in fleeting choices like Skull Kid and Midna in the first place. And last I attempted a Wilds era character I was told it didn't feel right - the Champions / Sages seem controversial on their own and I'm hardly convinced of the alternative of Rauru, either. Master Kohga, or straight up a Guardian are fun choices that I'm just uncertain if I want to take the plunge on yet.

I guess I'll summarize it with the vague "it just doesn't seem like something Sakurai would go for" with Impa. Hard to argue any further about a gut feeling. And "replacing" Sheik with Impa arbitrarily seems even less like something he would do. I'm personally still dubious of Skull Kid as well, despite being a choice that I would vastly prefer, so I'm in a real state of limbo when it comes to landing on a new Zelda character.

Or do we wanna keep adding new versions of Link and Zelda every time ?

Really don't like the implication though that Impa is this all or nothing character who is our one and only hope to get characters outside the Triforce. She's not and nobody likes feeling held captive to support a character like this. Years of people framing Impa this way has probably put me off from the character a good deal if I'm being honest.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Master Kohga, or straight up a Guardian are fun choices that I'm just uncertain if I want to take the plunge on yet.

Go on, take the plunge. We got bananas.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

I wonder if Ryu Hyabusa getting in increases the chances of seeing Hyrule Warriors Impa. Hyabusa joining means that Smash will already be working with Koei Tecmo. That game has so many awesome songs that would be great for Smash too.

Which Impa? From the original HW or Age of Calamity?

 

[Gengar84]

I'm still just not convinced on Impa - I unno, like she's a perfectly viable choice but perhaps it's the fact few of her mainline roles really jump out at me and she typically plays more supporting roles. Her Skyward Sword design was pretty compelling, but I can't see them falling back on that now. I'm really convinced next game they will want to capitalize as much as possible on the Switch-era portrayals.

I'd like it to click for me, but there's a divide here that still convinces me it's unlikely to happen. I still don't really have a better answer for you, since much of Impa's demand came partially from a disinterest / distrust in fleeting choices like Skull Kid and Midna in the first place. And last I attempted a Wilds era character I was told it didn't feel right - the Champions / Sages seem controversial on their own and I'm hardly convinced of the alternative of Rauru, either. Master Kohga, or straight up a Guardian are fun choices that I'm just uncertain if I want to take the plunge on yet.

I guess I'll summarize it with the vague "it just doesn't seem like something Sakurai would go for" with Impa. Hard to argue any further about a gut feeling. And "replacing" Sheik with Impa arbitrarily seems even less like something he would do. I'm personally still dubious of Skull Kid as well, despite being a choice that I would vastly prefer, so I'm in a real state of limbo when it comes to landing on a new Zelda character.



Really don't like the implication though that Impa is this all or nothing character who is our one and only hope to get characters outside the Triforce. She's not and nobody likes feeling held captive to support a character like this. Years of people framing Impa this way has probably put me off from the character a good deal if I'm being honest.

I can assure you I’m not one of those people that only want Impa because I have a disinterest in Skull Kid or Midna. I think all three of them would be awesome and I’d gladly take all of them. I never bought into the whole one-off argument to disqualify a character from inclusion. Although my reason for wanting Impa might be just as shallow. I think she’s awesome looking in Hyrule Warriors and I loved playing as her in that game. I guess my interest doesn’t really go deeper than that for her but that’s enough for me to be hyped about playing as that version of her in Smash, as unlikely as that might be. It also helps that I love Hyrule Warriors’ soundtrack.

Which Impa? From the original HW or Age of Calamity?

I was specifically talking about the original Hyrule Warriors but I suppose it could apply to either.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

since much of Impa's demand came partially from a disinterest / distrust in fleeting choices like Skull Kid and Midna in the first place

I don't think this is a fair assessment. When I did my poll, Impa was equally as popular as those too. The "let's settle" characters like Rauru or Tingle didn't do nearly as well as Impa did. She's just genuinely a popular choice.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The naginata is made up for Hyrule Warriors. But Smash uses cues from spin offs all the time so I think that part is irrelevant.

To the extent of a given character's design and main weapon (which means a vast majority of their normal moves) being esclusive to a spin off? I can't think of anyone even close to that.

 

[Gengar84]

I don't think this is a fair assessment. When I did my poll, Impa was equally as popular as those too. The "let's settle" characters like Rauru or Tingle didn't do nearly as well as Impa did. She's just genuinely a popular choice.

Rauru seems like he could genuinely be pretty cool too. He’s got a really unique visual design and the powers he gives Link could make for an interesting base for a moveset. Plus, he’s pretty important to the plot of the game, and by extension, the general lore of the series based on that game.

To the extent of a given character's design and main weapon (which means a vast majority of their normal moves) being esclusive to a spin off? I can't think of anyone even close to that.

Sheik’s moveset was pretty much entirely created for Smash itself. I’m not sure why coming from a spinoff is a bad thing but at least they’d come from somewhere.

 

[HyperSomari64]

To the extent of a given character's design and main weapon (which means a vast majority of their normal moves) being esclusive to a spin off? I can't think of anyone even close to that.

Dorfy uses a sword in his Smash attacks, but he only used it in a SpaceWorld 2000 tech demo. Does that count as a spin-off?

 

[Louie G.]

I don't think this is a fair assessment. When I did my poll, Impa was equally as popular as those too. The "let's settle" characters like Rauru or Tingle didn't do nearly as well as Impa did. She's just genuinely a popular choice.

I didn't mean it in a disparaging way, I was suggesting that my pushing for Skull Kid / Midna instead wouldn't resonate with a sect of speculators who have already made up their mind on these two, and see Impa as the most viable outlet. I don't think it blankets everyone who supports her but I think expectation is a different story, and that's what I was trying to get at. If you put Impa on your prediction roster I feel it "takes a side" in a way about how you believe Smash prioritizes its character choices and what the most practical step forward for a stunted Zelda lineup is. If Impa and Skull Kid are equally popular then it would ultimately come down to that distinction one way or the other... consistency as a supporting role vs one standout role.

But people can want the character for any number of reasons. And even if I feel Impa's support did come from trying to solve that puzzle so to speak, she's had some pretty exciting roles and adaptations since then that have really spurred people on. Any support that has persisted for over a decade would be a bit silly to trivialize like that.