Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

Not to mention Super Robot Wars, which kinda has a huge legal nightmare that prevents it from selling over here until recently.

Im kinda bummed the mobile game wasnt given a worldwide version.

It looks neat.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What program was used to make this? Also link to it so I can make one.

Smash Bros. Roster Maker.

Smash Bros. Roster Maker

Create your ideal roster for Super Smash Bros. in the browser!

benshoeman.github.io

Morrigan Crono Zero and Dante are good but everything is waaaay to retro focused

No such thing.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Oh like it was complete, but unreleased? That would probably make it a lot more likely.

Yeah, Engage is a weird situation because it was conceived as a 30th anniversary title and made alongside Three Houses from what I understand? Three Houses was supposed to come out in like 2018, but then it got pushed back, and COVID completely destroyed plans for Engage to be a 2020 release, and I think in the interim they added Byleth to the Emblem lineup? Might have some details wrong, but I know Engage had a really weird journey with its release timing lol

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Smash Bros. Roster Maker.

Smash Bros. Roster Maker

Create your ideal roster for Super Smash Bros. in the browser!

benshoeman.github.io

No such thing.

View attachment 395495

I used it and put the characters i want to see in a newcomer spot.

Im pretty much content with the Nintendo lineup we have to be honest.

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah normally Engage's early 23 release would likely be too late for a mid/late 21 plan and a first-half 22 start of development. Though knowing Engage was sat on for a long while makes it possible. Just a lot behind the scenes we wouldn't know and not much precedent for that kind of situation with a character.

But, regardless of timing, I remain skeptical of Alear's chances. Engage was clearly planned as an anniversary title explicitly meant to appeal to longtime fans' nostalgia for the older characters...I mean literally Marth was arguably the most important character to the pre-release marketing...given that purpose, and the fact that it was always likely to sell less than Three Houses, it's easily possible that Sakurai/IS/Nintendo just don't view it as necessary to represent with a recent character, knowing that older characters like Marth are obviously going to be returning and that the Switch era of FE already just got Byleth as well.

If Sakurai's 21/22 project is not Smash, though, then purely timing-wise it's very likely that the project plan would be too late to be optimal for Engage, in addition to the above non-timing factors.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Im pretty much content with the Nintendo lineup we have to be honest.

Same. 1P is barrel scraping at this point. I'd much rather see new iconic 3P franchises.

 

[Jave]

I disagree about First Party reaching barrel scraping levels. I think that if it absolutely had to be done, you could very easily do a 100-character roster without even resorting to 3rd parties or joke characters (outside of Pichu and Piranha Plant).

Of course a Smash roster without 3rd parties will never happen now (those floodgates have long since been opened), but the Nintendo character universe is HUGE. We're far from running out of potential Smash candidates.

 

[Schnee117]

Bottom of the barrel is when we're at the point where we're seriously considering the likes of Wart, Mouser, the TP Postman, Adam Malkovich and the Polar Bear from Ice Climber as newcomers.

Bottom of the barrel is not when we still have yet to see Waluigi, Dixie, Toad, a proper Ganondorf, more expansive Zelda content and an ever growing selection of Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters and other new IPs. Just because it isn't a bunch of turbo boomer picks doesn't make it the bottom of the barrel.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Videogames about robots dont tend to sell very well outside of Asia (unless its Megaman)

Custom robo, LBX, Medabots.

All of them thrown to the wayside in the west.

Because those are derivatives of the Monster taming genre, and Mega Man is a platformer. That's an unfair comparison, even if Battle Network 4 is the third best-selling MM game.
And let's not talk about Robopon, which was released during the peak of Poké-Mania

 

[Noipoi]

Bottom of the barrel is when we're at the point where we're seriously considering the likes of Wart, Mouser, the TP Postman, Adam Malkovich and the Polar Bear from Ice Climber as newcomers.

Bottom of the barrel is not when we still have yet to see Waluigi, Dixie, Toad, a proper Ganondorf, more expansive Zelda content and an ever growing selection of Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters and other new IPs. Just because it isn't a bunch of turbo boomer picks doesn't make it the bottom of the barrel.

You didn’t have to do Mouser like that

All 3 of his fans are in shambles

 

[Gorgonzales]

Bottom of the barrel is when we're at the point where we're seriously considering the likes of Wart, Mouser, the TP Postman, Adam Malkovich and the Polar Bear from Ice Climber as newcomers.

Bottom of the barrel is not when we still have yet to see Waluigi, Dixie, Toad, a proper Ganondorf, more expansive Zelda content and an ever growing selection of Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters and other new IPs. Just because it isn't a bunch of turbo boomer picks doesn't make it the bottom of the barrel.

You put some respect on Postman's name! The guy works very hard!

 

[fogbadge]

Bottom of the barrel is when we're at the point where we're seriously considering the likes of Wart, Mouser, the TP Postman, Adam Malkovich and the Polar Bear from Ice Climber as newcomers.

Bottom of the barrel is not when we still have yet to see Waluigi, Dixie, Toad, a proper Ganondorf, more expansive Zelda content and an ever growing selection of Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters and other new IPs. Just because it isn't a bunch of turbo boomer picks doesn't make it the bottom of the barrel.

what about the postman from the other Zelda games?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I disagree about First Party reaching barrel scraping levels. I think that if it absolutely had to be done, you could very easily do a 100-character roster without even resorting to 3rd parties or joke characters (outside of Pichu and Piranha Plant).

Of course a Smash roster without 3rd parties will never happen now (those floodgates have long since been opened), but the Nintendo character universe is HUGE. We're far from running out of potential Smash candidates.

Besides, if what's next for Smash is absolutely positively going to be a new game and not more DLC for the one we already have, you're gonna have to deal with the fact that that means we're going to get at least 10 "scraps from the bottom of the barrel" and only two, maybe three "good characters". You don't want FP3, then don't complain that the newcomers aren't like the ones in FP1-2.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think that if it absolutely had to be done, you could very easily do a 100-character roster without even resorting to 3rd parties or joke characters (outside of Pichu and Piranha Plant).

Of course you could. But half that roster would absolutely be barrel scrapings.

 

[Ivander]

Of course you could. But half that roster would absolutely be barrel scrapings.

9/10 of the roster is already barrel scrapings. It's called Super Smash Bros yet the only 9 characters who are brothers are Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Toon Link, Ness, Lucas, Marth, Chrom and Snake. So they had to do alot of barrel scraping to get the roster we have today.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

9/10 of the roster is already barrel scrapings. It's called Super Smash Bros yet the only 9 characters who are brothers are Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Toon Link, Ness, Lucas, Marth, Chrom and Snake. So they had to do alot of barrel scraping to get the roster we have today.

Not a lot of smashing either.

 

[Ivander]

Not a lot of smashing either.

Yeah, only 4 of them canonically smashed.....Oh you mean Smashing! Well, there is still a lot of face smashing involved.

 

[Guynamednelson]

9/10 of the roster is already barrel scrapings.

There'd be people who'd unironically think this if those characters hadn't gotten in when they did.

Thank God Ultimate was the game where we finally got playable Ridley, because otherwise "too big" would be the least of his concerns.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Guys, I just made a whole poll showing a bunch of super wanted first party characters.

We aren't scraping the bottom of the barrel, you just have particular tastes.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Here's a thought experiment.

Would Dark Link have been a better Link clone than Young / Toon Link?

It would mean the clone isn't just another version of the same character and would have included another villain. I don't know if Dark Link would have worked with a quicker but less powerful moveset, but maybe Link would be the faster one in this scenario.

Basically, would Dark Link have been a better choice?

Dark Link works far better as just a palette swap because he's ultimately meant to be an exact replica of Link.

The alternative would be to make him like Daisy, an echo fighter whose differences are only visual. And at the time of Melee, some actual effort went on the clones to make them distinct so something like that would have never happened back then.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Yeah that could work. They could do the same for Blood Falcon.

I say a straight echo would be better for him. I feel since he has a different personality than Falcon, he should at least get different taunts, same as Dark Pit. And ideally differences on at least two moves like he does, but even just the taunts would warrant a different slot

 

[SharkLord]

Something that just came to mind. Even if Engage doesn't get a character, what are the odds that the FE characters in Smash might get an "Emblem" costume? Like with the Emblem aura, the translucency and whatever potential differences, like Marth's side hair being a bit longer and curlier?
I know the main Emblem form might be a bit redundant with their main outfit, sorta like Crafted Yoshi hardly looking different from normal Yoshi, but an Emblem Aura costume could potentially come with the "Red Emblem" versions, where the characters outfits become bright red-tinted and their hair becomes red too.

I'd be fine if Marth just takes his Engage move as a Final Smash. With how cinematic and detailed Final Smashes have become lately, the generic Critical Hit animation kinda sticks out

Corrin's game was already out in Japan and Byleth was a Nintendo decision for DLC on the basis of a game that would be fresh during the DLC period.

The only times a character was decided for the base roster when their game hadn't been out yet were Lucas (who had been planned before for Melee but Earthbound 64 got scrapped and was retooled into Mother 3, which was publicly announced in Japan in 2003), Lucario (though had an upcoming movie so his existence was at least public), Greninja, and Incineroar. And even then the latter two were merely placeholders that were filled later.


And before some smartass wants to bring up Roy, he wasn't originally planned to begin with when the project was drafted. An outlier among outliers.

Ah, so I was wrong on the FE characters. Still, there's precedent for setting up placeholders for new Pokemon games; FE has also been singled out for promotional characters, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to predict an upcoming Fire Emblem game being given a reserve slot

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Dark Link works far better as just a palette swap because he's ultimately meant to be an exact replica of Link.

The alternative would be to make him like Daisy, an echo fighter whose differences are only visual. And at the time of Melee, some actual effort went on the clones to make them distinct so something like that would have never happened back then.

They aren't only visual, though. We know for a fact she has slightly different data that affects her animations. Like, they're terribly done, but she was never 1:1 to Peach. It's more like she's 99%(probably more like 99.99999%, but bear with me on the point) the same.

The problem is that they're so slightly it'll never come up in any kind of match, so people mistake her for being a pure visual change. However, we do have recorded data of the gameplay differences. It's just simply her animations have barely different hurtboxes(but still actually different). It's really the only thing that makes her impossible to be just a costume. She has gameplay changes(poor ones in total), not unlike Lucina in 4. Costumes aren't allowed any kind of actual gameplay difference, no matter how irrelevant it seems. That's the rule Sakurai made clear to us a long time back.

That said, it's not hard to make Dark Link a low effort Echo with barely any differences(Richter suffers similarly, though I only remember his holy water being different. His taunts might have minorly different hurtboxes, though, putting him rather on par with Daisy's changes. To give credit, Dark Samus also has more elemental changes, and a few minor hurtbox changes too. She's above both, but only barely).

But back to Dark Link; he has actual unique items in various games, and can do anything Link can do sometimes. Though that said, Link's Shadow(Zelda II), Dark Link(OOT), and Shadow Link(FS) are actually different characters, but effectively there's no tangible differences besides stuff like lore. So you could easily make it an Echo of any of the three without issues. This is likely why they're just simple costumes. It happens that all three Links at one point had a shadowy counterpart anyway.

Ah, so I was wrong on the FE characters. Still, there's precedent for setting up placeholders for new Pokemon games; FE has also been singled out for promotional characters, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to predict an upcoming Fire Emblem game being given a reserve slot

Pokemon's a special case where it's a multimedia juggernaut that it's odd to not have a new one since the franchise is guaranteed works almost every year. It's pretty difficult to not find something plausible from the latest work, even if it's just for a Spirit/Pokeball. Fire Emblem isn't in the same boat at all. It hasn't really had special situations beyond "easy clone types" at this point. And even the two times it happened with Pokemon, both also had anime popularity at the time(Jigglypuff was big, and Pichu had its own movies) that made the choices even easier. Pichu also doubled as the mascot of the Baby Pokemon, so it had another good reason to be chosen. ...When you're the pre-evolution of the franchise's mascot, you tend to get some attention in other ways, heh.

 

[SharkLord]

You didn’t have to do Mouser like that

All 3 of his fans are in shambles

Are we counting heads or bodies because depending on that I think Tryclyde might be Mouser's only fan

 

[ninjahmos]

I hope the next game changes Marth's original taunt from "Keep your eyes open!" back to "Everyone, watch me!" to make it more accurate to what he's saying in Japanese.

 

[SharkLord]

Pokemon's a special case where it's a multimedia juggernaut that it's odd to not have a new one since the franchise is guaranteed works almost every year. It's pretty difficult to not find something plausible from the latest work, even if it's just for a Spirit/Pokeball. Fire Emblem isn't in the same boat at all. It hasn't really had special situations beyond "easy clone types" at this point. And even the two times it happened with Pokemon, both also had anime popularity at the time(Jigglypuff was big, and Pichu had its own movies) that made the choices even easier. Pichu also doubled as the mascot of the Baby Pokemon, so it had another good reason to be chosen. ...When you're the pre-evolution of the franchise's mascot, you tend to get some attention in other ways, heh.

Eh, I'd still count Byleth While not exactly 1-to-1 with Greninja and Incineroar, they were still decided on before Three Houses released for the sake of having a character from a recent title, with Sakurai having to play the game in secret to figure out what to do with 'em without anyone finding out. I think that's a pretty special situation

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Ah, so I was wrong on the FE characters. Still, there's precedent for setting up placeholders for new Pokemon games; FE has also been singled out for promotional characters, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to predict an upcoming Fire Emblem game being given a reserve slot

Both times it was a matter of being in the right timeframe for DLC. With Corrin, being released around when Fates would make an international debut. With Byleth, being released at a point Three Houses would be still active in sales.

It was never a case of reserving a slot specifically for a Fire Emblem character, and given what Sakurai said about Robin/Lucina, the idea of reserving a slot for Alear on the base roster when he wouldn't even have a clue when Engage would be out does not add up.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Both times it was a matter of being in the right timeframe for DLC. With Corrin, being released around when Fates would make an international debut. With Byleth, being released at a point Three Houses would be still active in sales.

It was never a case of reserving a slot specifically for a Fire Emblem character, and given what Sakurai said about Robin/Lucina, the idea of reserving a slot for Alear on the base roster when he wouldn't even have a clue when Engage would be out does not add up.

In that scenario, Shez genuinely has more chances than Alear.

....is what I'd say if Sakurai wasn't allergic to spin-off representation in playable rosters

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Eh, I'd still count Byleth While not exactly 1-to-1 with Greninja and Incineroar, they were still decided on before Three Houses released for the sake of having a character from a recent title, with Sakurai having to play the game in secret to figure out what to do with 'em without anyone finding out. I think that's a pretty special situation

Actually, it isn't.

Sakurai has dealt with people pestering him and speculating just because he specifically "said he's playing a game". It makes sense to keep everything a secret to avoid this kind of issue.

It's nothing special in that regard. It's just a tactic necessary now because people go crazy at his words alone.

 

[SharkLord]

Both times it was a matter of being in the right timeframe for DLC. With Corrin, being released around when Fates would make an international debut. With Byleth, being released at a point Three Houses would be still active in sales.

It was never a case of reserving a slot specifically for a Fire Emblem character, and given what Sakurai said about Robin/Lucina, the idea of reserving a slot for Alear on the base roster when he wouldn't even have a clue when Engage would be out does not add up.

Ah, that's true. I'll concede on that.

Fire Emblem's become a pretty consistent seller nowadays, but not BIG big compared to stuff like Mario, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, or even Kirby. And checking the interviews, Sakurai's even said he thinks there's a bit too many Fire Emblem characters. And while Byleth was mostly positively recieved going off the likes and dislikes for their overview, they're still far and away the most contentious character on the roster. With all that together, Sakurai might be a bit hesitant to add a new FE character.

Actually, it isn't.

Sakurai has dealt with people pestering him and speculating just because he specifically "said he's playing a game". It makes sense to keep everything a secret to avoid this kind of issue.

It's nothing special in that regard. It's just a tactic necessary now because people go crazy at his words alone.

To be fair, that statement was in regards to what he posted on social media. Sakurai's stated in an interview that with Three Houses, it's specifically because the game was still in development

When Sakurai played, it was top secret. Other employees couldn’t see his screen, and he couldn’t bring that build of the game home.

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) November 3, 2021

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

In that scenario, Shez genuinely has more chances than Alear.

....is what I'd say if Sakurai wasn't allergic to spin-off representation in playable rosters

There is Heroes content in Ultimate.

This is how Veronica gets in. :V

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

There is Heroes content in Ultimate.

This is how Veronica gets in. :V

You say that as a joke but I have no doubt people would pop off for her.

It's me. I'm people.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Make it a co-op Tomb Raider style game and rake in the money.

Nintendo ventures into the "sad dad' genre of games and gives reboot Popo a grizzled beard and is depressed while Nana is still a little girl.

 

[SharkLord]

You say that as a joke but I have no doubt people would pop off for her.

It's me. I'm people.

Honestly it would be interesting to see the reaction to Veronica. As a mobile spinoff character she's under most people's radars, and since she doesn't have blue hair or a sword, she goes against the usual Fire Emblem stereotypes.

 

[NintenRob]

I have honestly no interest in seeing Dark Link as anything more than alt. I kinda see him as barely even counting as a character. He shows up to be a cool boss and that's kinda it. I think the only game where he's more than that Four Swords Adventure, which is already probably the most niche and obscure of the mainline Zelda titles.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Honestly it would be interesting to see the reaction to Veronica. As a mobile spinoff character she's under most people's radars, and since she doesn't have blue hair or a sword, she goes against the usual Fire Emblem stereotypes.

They can always give her Xander's sword

 

[Ivander]

There is Heroes content in Ultimate.

This is how Veronica gets in. :V

Hey, I'd be great with Veronica. Heck, she's probably the only likely rep for FEHeroes considering she appeared as an Emblem for Engage.

That aside, Heroes has some legitimately cool content that I would love to see in Smash Bros, between it's characters, it's areas, it's music and the Breidablik as a potential Pokeball item for FE characters that could summon characters that are unlikely to get into Smash Bros.

They can always give her Xander's sword

Give her the Anchor Axe weapon she uses in her Pirate outfit. Just for the sheer confusion, and maybe PTSD, of people seeing a tiny girl with an anchor for a weapon.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, that statement was in regards to what he posted on social media. Sakurai's stated in an interview that with Three Houses, it's specifically because the game was still in development

When Sakurai played, it was top secret. Other employees couldn’t see his screen, and he couldn’t bring that build of the game home.

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) November 3, 2021

...He can't really talk about stuff he played when it's in development either. How is that special? Nintendo wanted a character that was new and easy to promote. Three Houses was going to originally be an earlier game, but wasn't, so obviously this means Sakurai couldn't look at it during base game decisions.

Again, this isn't actually special at all.

And yes, in general, he has to do stuff in secret either way because people go crazy. Nobody likes to be pestered like that. His words are easily taken out of context because people can't fathom that he simply plays games for fun too. It always has to "mean something".

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And yes, in general, he has to do stuff in secret either way because people go crazy. Nobody likes to be pestered like that. His words are easily taken out of context because people can't fathom that he simply plays games for fun too. It always has to "mean something".

But he mentioned Tactics Ogre in his last video. That totally means we're getting content from it, right?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Honestly it would be interesting to see the reaction to Veronica. As a mobile spinoff character she's under most people's radars, and since she doesn't have blue hair or a sword, she goes against the usual Fire Emblem stereotypes.

People that have no idea who she is would probably be calm about her and maybe curious up until they find out she's another Fire Emblem character and then start screeching like rabid baboons.