I think a more elegant solution to the walking jab problem would be to require people to stand still during the jab input and then allow them to hold left or right while holding the button to walk.
Hey thanks for replying. I didn't really word that post very well when I reread it. I could have been more specific and I think using the word "Attack" made it more confusing especially since it's an extremely hypothetical rant. I also accidently erroneously failed to realize that the Diagonal directions would be accounted for already by the spaces I left for traditional tilt inputs. I both overthought it and didn't think it through enough. I tried to find a solution for people that would want to input tilts the traditional way but I was correct in my earlier assessment
(unposted) that Tilt-Stick is literally the ONLY solution which is why I would opt to at least default the C-Stick/Second-Stick as the tilt if not outright mandate it even if it did upset some players.
Basically I'm trying to leave space for traditional tilt inputting while making space for my hypothetical new attack inputs I'm proposing. Those being the Up-Attack and Down-Attack or more specifically Up-Jab/A and Down-Jab/A. While yes your solution would be a valid method of inputting the walking-jab I'd still like to give the player the option to walk first and then input the jab as well.
Having a defaulted or mandated Tilt-Stick would allow for unique Side-Tilts to co-exist with walking-jabs and even allow for characters with walking jabs to potentially have angle-able Side-Tilts as well while also making space for my proposed "Up-Jab/A" and "Down-Jab/A" inputs as unique attacks. Characters with walking-jabs wouldn't be able to input Side-Tilts in the traditional way anymore but I think it'd be a justifiable loss in order to gain 2 unique
(3 counting the unique Side-Tilt I'd be giving them) attacks in the process and besides even then characters without a walking-jab could still input the Side-Tilt in the traditional manner.
This is ultimately why I think having C-Stick/Second-Stick defaulted as Tilt-Stick is the way to go. It solves so many of these design headaches without necessarily losing anything in the process. You even still do a little walk into Side-Tilt
(reminiscent of the traditional way of inputting Side-Tilt) by walking a little and then flicking the stick the appropriate direction. Hell you even have the option to do a little walk before inputting a Side-Tilt in the complete opposite direction, something you can't at all do without Tilt-Stick and it even makes walking Up and Down Tilts much easier.
I completely understand why Megaman's Neutral-Air and Jab are his bullets. Makes total sense and I wouldn't change that but I'd personally like it if Megaman got his ice-blast from his custom moves in Sm4sh back or something else for his Side-Tilt. So basically my implementation would have his jab being walkable like is currently the case but should the player want to input my proposed Ice-Blast Side-Tilt they'd have to use the Tilt-Stick.
So my ideal implementation of these unique "Down-Jab/A" and "Up-Jab/A" attacks would still leave room for reversing Up and Down Tilts with their respective diagonal directional inputs and for characters walking-jabs to have to use the tilt-stick for the Side-Tilt but only their SIde-Tilt would be locked to the Tilt-Stick with this proposed implementation. This would allow players to still reverse these tilts while also allowing for the space for unique Up-Jab/A and Down-Jab/A inputs. Again I think it's a justifiable loss all things considered.
Some of us don't use c-stick (blasphemy, I know) because of how clunky it is to switch between different hand positions, so to me the idea of forcing everyone to use it for tilts of all things is incredibly gross. To me the best way of dealing with tilts is to give smash attacks their own button. Then there isn't as much precision required to get the move you want.
I was already really wordy and overly explanative with my post that I didn't want to delve into the topic of optional button-mapping. Now that I've thought about it though I think Tilt-Stick makes so much space for more moves that I go as far to argue that's for the best to mandate it. Not only would it make space for my "Down-Jab/A" and "Up-Jab/A" but we could even potentially give a Back-Tilt to everybody like Kazuya. Tilt-Stick allows for the potential to be tapped into just like it does for these "Up-Jab/A" and "Down-Jab/A" attacks. Though in the process of gaining this hypothetical Back-Tilt we'd lose the ability to walk a little one way and immediately Side-Tilt in the complete opposite direction that I was talking about earlier haha. I'd definitely give that up for a new attack though as I think so would most players. So mandating Tilt-Stick opens up controller real-estate for 3 new attacks
(1 new tilt + Up/Down-Jab/A attacks) for every character. I say that's worth it.
I wouldn't mind giving the Smash attack its own input either. That's an excellent solution. I actually don't get why it's relegated to only being potentially mapped to the C-Stick/Second-Stick. I know some players really love the Smash-Stick and I wouldn't want to take that option away from them but I think it pails in comparison to the value of the Tilt-Stick. Some people will say its advantage is getting quick Smash attacks but I don't see how they're any faster than just doing them the traditional way
(doubling inputting the direction and A/Jab) so long as you know let go of the input immediately after inputting it with a quick tap.
On the topic of diagonal inputs, I'm not sure I entirely follow what your idea is, but I think they are tricky. One thing that exists right now is the ability to turn around with up-tilts/specials/smashes if you tilt the stick at a diagonal. So take Marth's up-tilt, for instance. He swings his sword up from in front toward the back. If you want to start from the other direction, you can hold the stick up and back for Marth to turn around and swing the opposite way. With specific diagonal moves you lose that. It would also be finicky on characters that turn around, and it could easily become a Smash 4 Ryu situation.
Yes this is what I was getting at when I was talking about "angle of attack". You can also do these directional influences with Down-Tilts as well. Any character with a sliding Down-Tilt especially should know how to do this in order to quickly reverse directions with the slide.
Basically I see elements I like in both implementations of tilt attacks.
On one hand tilt-stick is an absolute must for me. Not only do I have the tilts reliably quick whenever I need them
(even with my sliding Down-Tilt I'll just flick Down on the tilt stick if I want it to go in the direction in already going in) but I can also do Side-Tilts completely still. I honestly don't understand how all players wouldn't want the option to do standing Side-Tilts as opposed to having to first set up the attack by walking a little then inputting the attack button to do the Side-Tilt that way and that's all the worse if you have an angle-able Side-Tilt. Tilt-stick feels borderline mandatory if you have one of those.
Then on the other hand there's the ability to quickly reverse the direction of both the Up-Tilts
(works for Up-Smash and Up-Special as well as you pointed out) and Down-Tilts by moving the control stick into the diagonal position of the reversed direction
(relative to your position) that you want to go in. Like as Cloud I can land my BAIR and then quickly Down-Tilt slide towards my opponent if the situation calls for it. This is very unreliable with the tilt-stick. Maybe if I have a controller with notches I'd be able to do it
(not sure never played with one) but it's much better to have the traditional inputs function this way because it means we players don't need controllers with notches and it also gives the traditional tilt input method an actual purpose for being there.
I do agree with tap jump being off by default, but it would also be nice if there was an option in the name creation to toggle it without going to the controls screen. For most people that's the only setting they change, and it would be nice for them to be able to do so without going into another menu.
Yes as crazy as it is to admit this I actually played with Jump-Stick for about 6 or so months into Ultimate because I'd used it in previous Smash games
(I didn't really play Sm4sh all that much) and I never really thought much of it. I actually thought it was best to have another option for jump at the ready if anything. It was a little weird when I turned it off but once I got used to it I never looked back and now, especially with the reverse Up-Tilts/Smash/Special inputs requiring it to be off.
It's yet again something I wouldn't want to take away from players completely but I truly believe in giving the players the options to arrange their tools how they please (to a limit) as a principle of good game design but Jump-Stick is just so utterly bad that I think I can make the case for it being defaulted off without too much controversy but I'd go as far to outright get rid of it completely if it made the addition of my hypothetical "Up-Jab/A" attack that much more seamless, intuitive and justifiable game design.
My main gripe with it is that there's moveset real-estate being occupied by a universally detested option. B-Button
(or Special) has at least Neutral, Forward, Up and Down inputs with even the untapped potential for Backward and Shield
(Shield-Special) inputs. A-Button has Neutral and Forward
(Dash Attack). I see counting tilts as the A-Button's equivalents in this regard as redundant and unnecessary for the reasons I've already explained.
So yeah I think mandating Tilt-Stick and axing Jump-Stick completely leads to an objectively more expansive moveset arsenal without the loss of anything.