Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

Even the tracks that aren't in Tour seem to be using Tour's artstyle as a means of futureproofing them. GBA Sky Garden wasn't in Tour when the DLC was announced, but it's coming real soon. I don't know if they can really do any "futureproofing" like this for Smash except, I dunno, repurposing Hero's moveset onto a character with less licensing issues?

Right, some aren't playable in Tour yet, but all these tracks (I think other than Shroom Ridge) were datamined in Tour a long time ago. Coconut Mall, Sky Garden, others which will probably become DLC. So the assets are there, and they're just using them for both. Which, cost-wise, is very smart.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean, I don't think it's a harsh judgment to say that Mario Kart is a franchise Nintendo's willing to be a bit more cynically money driven about, whether it's the gacha elements in Tour or the blatant product placement via the Mercedes-Benz car in 8. If there is an IP that Nintendo is willing to release cost-effective DLC on effectively 8 years after it came out, it would be MK.

Smash isn't completely auteur work by any stretch, but it does feel a bit more shaped by a specific vision than just squeezing all possible profit out of it.

 

[CannonStreak]

What do you guys all think?

Honestly sounds like wishful thinking.

I dunno, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is getting DLC probably to tide fans over until Mario Kart 9, while Smash Bros. does not have a game coming after it on the Switch, and probably won't at all, meaning we have to wait until the next Nintendo system for Smash. What would more Smash DLC tide the fans over for when the next game is not going to be on the same system like how Mario Kart 9 might be after Mario Kart 8 Deluxe?

 

[dream1ng]

I mean, I don't think it's a harsh judgment to say that Mario Kart is a franchise Nintendo's willing to be a bit more cynically money driven about, whether it's the gacha elements in Tour or the blatant product placement via the Mercedes-Benz car in 8. If there is an IP that Nintendo is willing to release cost-effective DLC on effectively 8 years after it came out, it would be MK.

Smash isn't completely auteur work by any stretch, but it does feel a bit more shaped by a specific vision than just squeezing all possible profit out of it.

Well, if you look at old statements by Sakurai, he used to be against DLC. He believed the product that shipped should be indicative of the final product. But Smash DLC is like crack for Gamers™, and now you have games like Ultimate being built from the ground up with DLC in mind, it lasting over the course of three years (far surpassing Nintendo's other DLC offerings), and charging for stuff like skins for the Miis. Plus all those amiibos.

Plus some of the roster choices are clearly done to push recent or upcoming first-party titles.

It's an auteur work in a sense, but one in which Sakurai knows he has to compromise some things on for the sake of profits. Which is kind of funny considering the whole reason Smash became Smash as we know it is because they knew Nintendo characters would sell better than original "Dragon King" ones.

 

[Sucumbio]

What do you guys all think?

Honestly sounds like wishful thinking.

Something he didn't consider is the dev studio behind Kart and Splatoon is Nintendo EAD and not Namco/Sora. I think this is actually why we should not expect Smash Ultimate to follow the same late DLC offering scheme which also come with NSO+Exp. I think it's definitely wishful thinking and it would only be plausible if Smash had also been developed by EAD.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think it's definitely wishful thinking and it would only be plausible if Smash had also been developed by EAD.

Or if HAL was still in charge of the franchise to this day. Even then I'm not sure how they'd be able to handle working on SSBU plus Star Allies and then Forgotten Land. Not to mention their cheaper projects like Part Time UFO...

 

[Chuderz]

I love Banjo & Kazooie and all but they're fine where they are. So long as they stay in Smash then it'll have all worked out just fine. There's a handful of studios that could potentially do a sequel to their series justice such as Doublefine, Toys For Bob, Playtonic or even Rare. If Playtonic ever goes for it I think it'd be best if they co-developed with one of the other aforementioned studios considering they're a pretty small studio. All of this applies to Conker as well and I think if we're lucky these fabled sequels or remakes could land on Nintendo consoles too.

Nintendo already has a 3D platformer with Mario and now Kirby. If anything they should add Donkey Kong back to the 3D platforming lineup like he deserves. Maybe they could even add Wario, Luigi, and Yoshi to whatever Mario is doing like they did with the DS version of Mario 64. Hell maybe throw in Waluigi for the fans while you're at it.

Nintendo got everything they could have wanted with the IP split with Rare. Ultimately the most valuable thing Rare contributed to Nintendo was their revamp of the Donkey Kong IP in both design, all the extra characters, and world lore. This was obviously Nintendo's priority in these legal exchanges but they even got the added oomph to the long stagnate Star Fox world with Krystal, and Dinosaur Planet, and even all of the Diddy Kong Racing characters except Banjo and Conker. I actually wonder if there's anything they could even do with those characters besides a sequel to Diddy Kong Racing? Add them to the Donkey Kong world? I suppose but they already have the animal world with Star Fox. Meh it's not like you can't have two colorful animal worlds I guess.

Really if there are any characters Nintendo should "buy" it should be Geno and Mallow and Square Enix should basically just give them away to build a more solid relationship with Nintendo for future titles.

 

[CannonStreak]

Really if there are any characters Nintendo should "buy" it should be Geno and Mallow and Square Enix should basically just give them away to build a more solid relationship with Nintendo for future titles.

Or the rest of the Square created characters in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars for that matter.

 

[Dinoman96]

his was obviously Nintendo's priority in these legal exchanges but they even got the added oomph to the long stagnate Star Fox world with Krystal, and Dinosaur Planet, and even all of the Diddy Kong Racing characters except Banjo and Conker. I actually wonder if there's anything they could even do with those characters besides a sequel to Diddy Kong Racing? Add them to the Donkey Kong world? I suppose but they already have the animal world with Star Fox. Meh it's not like you can't have two colorful animal worlds I guess.

The only DKR racers Nintendo owns are Diddy and Krunch, and Dixie and Tiny in the DS version. Literally everything else in Diddy Kong Racing is and always has been owned by Rare (though Banjo was owned by Nintendo prior to 2002).

DK Vine • News • Fangamer Launches 'RareRacers' Branding for Rare's Diddy Kong Racing Intellectual Properties

dkvine.com

 

[Chuderz]

The only DKR racers Nintendo owns are Diddy and Krunch, and Dixie and Tiny in the DS version. Literally everything else in Diddy Kong Racing is and always has been owned by Rare (though Banjo was owned by Nintendo prior to 2002).

DK Vine • News • Fangamer Launches 'RareRacers' Branding for Rare's Diddy Kong Racing Intellectual Properties

dkvine.com

Fair enough and thanks for the link. It's actually better that Rare has them then. Nintendo has enough IP to neglect.

Also I'd like to add that Banjo's universe would be perfect for these characters. I'd add Conker in there too but they probably wouldn't want the M-rated humor and pop culture references to tarnish Banjo's whimsical world. I wouldn't mind though.

 

[chocolatejr9]

The only DKR racers Nintendo owns are Diddy and Krunch, and Dixie and Tiny in the DS version. Literally everything else in Diddy Kong Racing is and always has been owned by Rare (though Banjo was owned by Nintendo prior to 2002).

DK Vine • News • Fangamer Launches 'RareRacers' Branding for Rare's Diddy Kong Racing Intellectual Properties

dkvine.com

Then why aren't we petitioning for Krunch to make a comeback!?!

 

[Chalphy]

Really if there are any characters Nintendo should "buy" it should be Geno and Mallow and Square Enix should basically just give them away to build a more solid relationship with Nintendo for future titles.

What would be the point of that? Nintendo already has tons of Mario characters that they don't use, so Geno and Mallow would almost certainly just end up in the vault with the rest. Plus Nintendo and SE already have a working relationship, with regular software releases and shareholding.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I dunno, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is getting DLC probably to tide fans over until Mario Kart 9, while Smash Bros. does not have a game coming after it on the Switch, and probably won't at all, meaning we have to wait until the next Nintendo system for Smash. What would more Smash DLC tide the fans over for when the next game is not going to be on the same system like how Mario Kart 9 might be after Mario Kart 8 Deluxe?

You really think we’re getting Mario Kart 9 for Switch in 2024 at the earliest? I doubt it, personally. I figure Switch’s successor will probably be out in 2025 or so at the latest.

 

[Chuderz]

What would be the point of that? Nintendo already has tons of Mario characters that they don't use, so Geno and Mallow would almost certainly just end up in the vault with the rest. Plus Nintendo and SE already have a working relationship, with regular software releases and shareholding.

I don't know. The characters are doomed to rot then. I don't really have a horse in the race but clearly Square literally can't use them whatsoever so what's the point of Square owning them? Might as well just give 'em to Nintendo because then at least there's a chance they could be used. I think it's very likely that Geno would be playable in Smash already if he was first party. That's pretty much the point.

Nintendo has also been using some of these characters too. King Bob-omb and Ninji in Mario Golf Super Rush for example. Also they brought back Pauline and have featured her more prominently since then is another great example. I actually think Pauline has a great shot at getting into the next Smash game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You can't have expected SF6 going the anime-ish route was at all the likely option, though.

You mean I shouldn't have expected Capcom to pull its head out of its ass?

SF4 and 5's art style was not particularly well liked. Meanwhile, since Xrd, ArcSys's games have been lauded as some of the best looking games(not just fighting games, games) ever.

And it's not like anime hasn't been SF's style before. Hell it's story modes STILL use anime cutscenes!

But no. This game is being made by the MonHun team. I should have expected "Let's do SF5 again, but in the RE Engine!"

I think it'd be cool to add another Mii or 2 to the next Smash for the added Mii costume opportunities.
Here are some of my ideas:

• Mii Mage
• Mii Ninja (Shinobi)
• Mii Archer
• Mii Dancer

For me, it's a matter of "what are the most common archtypes in gaming". i.e. what Miis would translate into the largest number of crossover characters.

IMHO, the top 2 contenders are definitely Mages and Ninjas.

Like, every RPG ever has mages. And ninjas are in, like EVERYTHING, especially every fighting game or beat-em-up. And while swordfighter CAN be a ninja, it's moveset is really more RPG swordsman.

For Mages, there's:
Ashley [WarioWare] (converted from Swordfighter)
Viridi [Kid Icarus] (converted from Swordfighter)
Lip [Panel de Pon] (converted from Swordfighter)
Veronica [Dragon Quest] (converted from Swordfighter)
Aerith [Final Fantasy] (converted from Swordfighter)
Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Kamek [Super Mario Bros.]
Reimu [Touhou]
FF1 Black Mage [Final Fantasy]
FF1 White Mage [Final Fantasy]
Magus [Chrono Trigger]

And dozens of other JRPG Mages.

For Ninjas, you got:
Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
Shinobi [Shinobi]
Strider [Strider]
Guy [Final Fight]
Ibuki [Street Fighter]
Taki [SoulCalibur]
Goemon [Mystical Ninja]
Gray Fox [Metal Gear]
Galford [Samurai Shodown]
Scorpion/Sub-Zero [Mortal Kombat]

Plus, a short-blade, agility based moveset could also be applied to any thief/rogue characters.

 

[Dinoman96]

tbh as stated many times before, I just wish Nintendo owned everything about Mario RPG just so A. it'd be easier to re-release on NSO and B. so there could be more content from it in Smash.

Now see, I still don't think Geno would be playable even if he were first party, but I do think he'd be represented in some form since at least Brawl, like as an assist trophy or a sticker. We could of also potentially actually had music and more stickers/spirits from SMRPG too.

 

[Sucumbio]

You mean I shouldn't have expected Capcom to put its head out of its ass?

Lol! I got a genuine chuckle from this and I needed it pretty badly thank you.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I actually do think Geno is coming eventually. Dunno when dunno how especially since characters like Lara Croft from Square and Waluigi from Mario would likely come first but eventually I think we could see him. It’ll be a while though.

After all Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and technically Sora all got in before him and I guess that’s most of the competition besides the two above so, hey, maybe he’ll pull a K. Rool/Ridley. Hopefully alongside Isaac.

 

[CannonStreak]

You really think we’re getting Mario Kart 9 for Switch in 2024 at the earliest? I doubt it, personally. I figure Switch’s successor will probably be out in 2025 or so at the latest.

What I said was just a guess. Chill, not that you have to at all, but I just had to say it anyway.

 

[chocolatejr9]

But no. This game is being made by the MonHun team. I should have expected "Let's do SF5 again, but in the RE Engine!"

Wow, those really are the only franchises Capcom cares about, huh? I feel bad for Mega Man and Devil May Cry fans. Feels like they've been lied to...

 

[DarthEnderX]

I feel bad for Mega Man fans when X9 gets announced, and it has realistic RE Engine graphics...

 

[chocolatejr9]

I feel bad for Mega Man fans when X9 gets announced, and it has realistic RE Engine graphics...

Technically, they tried that once. Remember Maverick Hunter?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Technically, they tried that once. Remember Maverick Hunter?

You mean Maverick Hunter X? That looked more anime. Not less.

What do you guys all think?

Honestly sounds like wishful thinking.

The best kind of thinking!

 

[CannonStreak]

Seriously though, about that video Michael the Spikester posted a page back, I think it would be Nintendo's call, if anything, and Sakurai does not have to be the one to do it. However, I can't imagine many having the same dedication and talent as Sakurai, nor can I imagine much of Nintendo being that familiar with Smash to make the characters right in the first place if there were a Fighters Pass 3. I do think the DLC for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is supposed to keep fans waiting for 9, even if it is for the next system. However, whatever is happening with Mario Kart 9, the circumstances may be different for the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe DLC than with Smash. Plus, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is practically reusing old assets for tracks and updating them so they fit into the game. Making Smash characters is not as simple as using old assets, as making those characters are a different beast together.

 

[chocolatejr9]

You mean Maverick Hunter X? That looked more anime. Not less.

The best kind of thinking!

No, I meant this:

Maverick Hunter (cancelled game)

"Maverick Hunter" was the codename of a cancelled video game based on the Mega Man X series. The game was developed for around six months by Armature Studio, before being cancelled sometime in 2010. Information and footage of a prototype version of the game finally surfaced on April 9th, 2013...

megaman.fandom.com

 

[CannonStreak]

I should probably expand on what I said. Notice that they are not doing more characters for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. It takes time to do those characters. Granted, some may be reused from previous games, but still. making those characters is not so easy in the first place. These characters normally have to be built from scratch, and I can imagine there are not too many characters not in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe that were in past games that could be reused in the DLC if they made that, and the newer ones would be harder to do. If that is why they aren't doing DLC characters for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, I can't see why they'd do another Fighters Pass for Smash Bros. Ultimate.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I should probably expand on what I said. Notice that they are not doing more characters for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. It takes time to do those characters. Granted, some may be reused from previous games, but still. making those characters is not so easy in the first place. These characters normally have to be built from scratch, and I can imagine there are not too many characters not in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe that were in past games that could be reused in the DLC if they made that, and the newer ones would be harder to do. If that is why they aren't doing DLC characters for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, I can't see why they'd do another Fighters Pass for Smash Bros. Ultimate.

MK characters take far less tine to make than Smash ones. Really, since this pack is MKT asset flipping, the real reason to not add MKT drivers is because they'd stick out even more than the low-poly tracks.

 

[CannonStreak]

MK characters take far less tine to make than Smash ones. Really, since this pack is MKT asset flipping, the real reason to not add MKT drivers is because they'd stick out even more than the low-poly tracks.

They still take time, though. It is not like they can even be done overnight. This may not be the same genre, but their weight, acceleration, cornering, top speed, etc. still have to be taken into account. I also believe that making characters from scratch is not easy. Plus, if these DLC tracks are low-poly, then we would have a combination of low-poly and high-poly stages to race on considering the tracks that were in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe long before this new DLC was announced. My point is if the high-poly tracks still exist, then the low-poly tracks are not an excuse to not create new characters. Not to mention, if the characters that are new and DLC are high poly in comparison to the low poly DLC tracks, most, if not all of the characters are already high poly compared to the low poly DLC tracks.

 

[Guynamednelson]

but their weight, acceleration, cornering, top speed, etc. still have to be taken into account.

This isn't Funky Bike Wii, characters are more homogenous gameplay-wise.

 

[Sucumbio]

You mean Maverick Hunter X?

That...is a beautiful looking game....

 

[CannonStreak]

This isn't Funky Bike Wii, characters are more homogenous gameplay-wise.

Huh, I can still imagine they would have traits that would affect the bike or whatever they were riding. I mean, wouldn't a light, faster bike be impeded by someone heavy as Bowser. I just can't see them as that homogeneous. Besides, while they do not have the attacks Smash Bros. does, nor do anything other than drive for that matter, they still can't be simple to model, animations and all. I am sure animations are part of attacks in Smash Bros., by the way, and each character has their own animations. You may have included the word "more" in what you said, but this is not really more homogeneous the way I see it.

 

[Gengar84]

I feel bad for Mega Man fans when X9 gets announced, and it has realistic RE Engine graphics...

Yeah, I wish there wasn’t such a bias against anime style graphics. I personally love the look of ArcSystem’s games and I’ve always been a fan of Tales and Persona. I remember bringing up years ago that I thought it would have been cool to try to imitate the original artwork from FFVII in Remake instead of going the hyper-realistic look like Advent Children but no one seemed to agree with me at the time.

 

[PeridotGX]

Even the tracks that aren't in Tour seem to be using Tour's artstyle as a means of futureproofing them. GBA Sky Garden wasn't in Tour when the DLC was announced, but it's coming real soon. I don't know if they can really do any "futureproofing" like this for Smash except, I dunno, repurposing Hero's moveset onto a character with less licensing issues?

Sorry to be pedantic, but we knew Sky Garden was going to be in Tour before we knew about the MK8 DLC. It was only by a week or two, but there was a gap. Coconut Mall and Shroom Ridge are the ones we're still waiting on, though there have been assets for the former in the game for awhile.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Sorry to be pedantic, but we knew Sky Garden was going to be in Tour before we knew about the MK8 DLC. It was only by a week or two, but there was a gap. Coconut Mall and Shroom Ridge are the ones we're still waiting on, though there have been assets for the former in the game for awhile.

Ah

I don't keep up with MKT beyond MK8 fans being jealous of what Tour got

 

[CannonStreak]

Ah

I don't keep up with MKT beyond MK8 fans being jealous of what Tour got

Now that you posted, I just wanted to say one thing...

On second thought, most likely perhaps the character models in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ARE more homogeneous. I mean, they are different from the vehicles they ride, right? I can see why they wouldn't take much work now.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Ah

I don't keep up with MKT beyond MK8 fans being jealous of what Tour got

Imagine if King K. Rool makes his Mario Kart debut in Tour...

 

[Slime Scholar]

I actually do think Geno is coming eventually. Dunno when dunno how especially since characters like Lara Croft from Square and Waluigi from Mario would likely come first but eventually I think we could see him. It’ll be a while though.

After all Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and technically Sora all got in before him and I guess that’s most of the competition besides the two above so, hey, maybe he’ll pull a K. Rool/Ridley. Hopefully alongside Isaac.

I think he could eventually happen as well, but people have been saying “his main competition is out of the way” since Cloud. There really could be others.

Whether or not he makes it, IMO, is contingent on the current SE cast coming back. I don’t think we’ll see him without Cloud, Hero and Sephiroth returning at the bare minimum. This goes for other third parties as well; it’s hard to imagine getting Dante or Phoenix Wright if the Capcom veterans don’t return first.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Now that you posted, I just wanted to say one thing...

On second thought, most likely perhaps the character models in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ARE more homogeneous. I mean, they are different from the vehicles they ride, right? I can see why they wouldn't take much work now.

I should probably explain MK8 vs. MK Wii drivers a bit better

Mario Kart Wii

Mario Kart Wii is a multiplayer-oriented racing game from the Mario Kart series for the Wii, developed by Nintendo EAD. Mario Kart Wii retains the traditional premise of the franchise, with players selecting Super Mario franchise characters to use...

www.mariowiki.com

Mario Kart 8

Mario Kart 8 is a racing game for the Wii U developed primarily by Nintendo EAD, with Namco Bandai Holdings assisting. It is the eighth console installment in the Mario Kart series. This installment is the follow-up game of the Nintendo 3DS title...

www.mariowiki.com

tldr: Drivers in MK Wii all had their own unique stats. Drivers in MK8 are divided into 9 different sets of stats.

 

[CannonStreak]

I should probably explain MK8 vs. MK Wii drivers a bit better

Mario Kart Wii

Mario Kart Wii is a multiplayer-oriented racing game from the Mario Kart series for the Wii, developed by Nintendo EAD. Mario Kart Wii retains the traditional premise of the franchise, with players selecting Super Mario franchise characters to use...

www.mariowiki.com

Mario Kart 8

Mario Kart 8 is a racing game for the Wii U developed primarily by Nintendo EAD, with Namco Bandai Holdings assisting. It is the eighth console installment in the Mario Kart series. This installment is the follow-up game of the Nintendo 3DS title...

www.mariowiki.com

tldr: Drivers in MK Wii all had their own unique stats. Drivers in MK8 are divided into 9 different sets of stats.

Interesting. Thanks for explaining. Although I do think some of my other points still have merit, some other logic of mine I felt was rather...forced, to say.

 

[Yamat08]

Mmmm...

Nintendo software and hardware sales data from 1983 to present

I'm going to keep this thread updated with new, more up to date info whenever is possible. UPDATED WITH DATA UNTIL DECEMBER 2023 独創 What does the following data represent? The data here presented is either financial data or shipment data provided by Nintendo itself directly from Nintendo's...

www.installbaseforum.com

Banjo-Kazooie: 3.65 million
Super Mario RPG: 2.14 million

I'd say Banjo kinda has the upper hand here.

Is that excluding sales from re-releases (Virtual Console, Xbox Live, and the like)?