Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Stratos]

The characters that I definitely think will never go away are:

Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Peach
Bowser
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
Kirby
Pikachu
Samus
Pit

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The characters that I definitely think will never go away are:

Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Peach
Bowser
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
Kirby
Pikachu
Samus
Pit

Quite a few would still also be there; Marth, Wario, Villager, Isabelle, at least one Child Link, Sheik, Shulk, Sonic, Pac-Man, Ryu, Ken, Min Min. Even with a reduced roster size, we aren't losing characters like these. Unless you meant 1st party specifically, but see the above as is. Besides that, we wouldn't be losing any Echo tied to a character either, so Lucina and Dark Pit are quite safe.

That said, since I misworded that a bit, it's more an Echo is only as safe as the original is. They're not going to return if the original is gone. They're just that tied to a character. There's also absolutely zero reason for an Echo, who are all easy to be made, to be cut with the original still there. It's not resource intensive.

Let's also keep in mind Dr. Mario was going to be in Brawl anyway. So the historical cuts being clones aren't exactly as notable as being made. Sonic screwing with the development cycle by coming in late meant they couldn't easily implement other characters. This doesn't necessarily mean Mewtwo, Dr. Mario, and Roy would've outright returned, but they were still intended. The latter two would've been very easy to still bring back by that point, though. Mewtwo also could've been decidedly "we're releasing this later for a free download" since Brawl would've been made with that particular DLC in mind(just like the Stage Builder stuff). To get back to the first point, Young Link and Pichu were intended to be cut in Brawl fullsale. And they already had two more clones planned at one point(Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik. No, there wasn't a Tetra in the files. It would've said that if that's what Sakurai originally meant. Yes, it's possible they could've switched it over, but there's zero work done on them. The placeholders are exactly what they mean. Games aren't being played there. There's no reason for silly file names when it amounts to nothing useful for developers). In addition, Lucas and Wolf in 4 were special cases due to the specific franchises being in a bad spot. It was not because they were "clones" in particular.

Which pretty much means that being a clone only actual cut two characters in Smash history; Pichu and Young Link. Everybody else had special circumstances or were going to come back anyway. So there's no real reason to expect any Echo to get cut if the original is there(since that means that franchise is already doing fine enough to keep getting characters). Other clones could be expendable, but outside of Dr. Mario, they do require a lot more work, which also plays a role(semi clones like Falco, for instance. Though you could find some better examples even). Notably these haven't really been cut either for just being a clone(see: Wolf, Lucas, and the state of their franchise being the reason). Otherwise, Falco could've been gone too(who is easier to make than Wolf. So him being a clone kept him safer than Wolf's status of being a semi-clone).

Note: Obviously Young Link was replaced by another Clone character, so this is a case where "Clone" would be the actual reason. Pichu is not entirely clear, but if it was being replaced by Plusle & Minun, that's even more of a Clone factor. That said, it wasn't that popular of a character. So you can still consider it a mystery compared to Young Link, our only well-defined "is a clone to be cut" factor.

Basically? There's caveats and context. Being a clone is not something that puts you in a bad spot in itself.

 

[Noipoi]

The only one safe is Duck Hunt. Everyone else better watch their goddamn backs.

 

[Opossum]

Besides that, we wouldn't be losing any Echo tied to a character either, so Lucina and Dark Pit are quite safe.

This is the exact kind of statement that's destined to age extremely poorly.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Hey look! We made it to 1400 pages! Maybe Nintendo will reward us with that Direct!

Though FWIW, a bunch of people are saying it'll be on the 18th, but given recent leaker controversy, might wanna take it with a grain of salt...

 

[Opossum]

Hey look! We made it to 1400 pages! Maybe Nintendo will reward us with that Direct!

Though FWIW, a bunch of people are saying it'll be on the 18th, but given recent leaker controversy, might wanna take it with a grain of salt...

I mean, that has nothing to do with the Midori stuff. I'm not sure why that's being referenced here.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Hey look! We made it to 1400 pages! Maybe Nintendo will reward us with that Direct!

Though FWIW, a bunch of people are saying it'll be on the 18th, but given recent leaker controversy, might wanna take it with a grain of salt...

Well the 18th is because Among Us accidentally leaked and subsequently delisted an announcement that said "Out Now" and they've released things before in Directs, plus their next update is scheduled on the 18th.

 

[Ivander]

Hey look! We made it to 1400 pages! Maybe Nintendo will reward us with that Direct!

Though FWIW, a bunch of people are saying it'll be on the 18th, but given recent leaker controversy, might wanna take it with a grain of salt...

The 18th is being predicted not because of the leakers, but because of an Among Us trailer accidentally being posted online before it's intended update date, the 18th, and the update for it happening now, which gives the implication that it will be part of the Nintendo Direct as Among Us has made appearances on the Nintendo Direct regarding new updates.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm pretty sure the original 12, almost every character from Melee excluding Young Link and Pichu, and most characters from Brawl, Smash 4 and Ultimate altogether may be safe.

 

[Sucumbio]

Why didn't Mario get Cappy moves in yalls opinion?

 

[Perkilator]

Why didn't Mario get Cappy moves in yalls opinion?

Because it would've gone against Mario's beginner-friendly playstyle.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Because it would've gone against Mario's beginner-friendly playstyle.

That and I think Sakurai has said before that he doesn't like to drastically change characters too much for the sake of familiarity from game to game. And considering everything Cappy is capable of, that might've been too much.

It's also possible that it was just too late in development for a requirement on the roster like Mario to be changed like that since Smash came out in late 2018 and Odyssey came out in October 2017, but probably the former.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why didn't Mario get Cappy moves in yalls opinion?

For one thing, implementing it outside of a basic projectile can require a lot of work. Like, how do you represent it meaningfully without some extra stuff? The whole point is it takes over a character. That's not feasible for Smash in itself. Meanwhile competitively, Mario is actually really good and his edgeguarding tool compliments his overall moveset. While also being a fairly easy one to use. I get it could also grab items, but how is this interesting as a use? Couldn't that have been a new Grab at that point? Giving him a bit more space. But again, that's more complicated than he is. So in the end, it doesn't compliment his beginner friendly style either way.

But also like said above, the moveset is already quite beginner-friendly. Cappy doesn't really have a way to keep that factor in mind. F.L.U.D.D. works perfectly for what it does and is easy to use and understand. There's nothing special or complicated about it. It's at most slightly more difficult than some moves, but takes little work to understand. This isn't like Marth's older Dancing Blade, nor does it need too much timing like Counter would. Cappy is cool as a concept, but I wasn't surprised it never saw any major use. It'd be a great taunt, though. Far more fitting. Or even a cool cutscene Final Smash(with T-Rex Mario). Those fit better while not changing Mario's easy to work with playstyle.

 

[Sucumbio]

Because it would've gone against Mario's beginner-friendly playstyle.

I mean... Side b could be this:

Super Mario Odyssey Cappy GIF - Super Mario Odyssey Mario Cappy - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

What if the next Smash was Super Smash Bros. Origins with the original roster and some vets and newcomers as unlockables but all in a new art style and engine to lead to a new build up to Ultimate 2 years more years away?

 

[dream1ng]

What if the next Smash was Super Smash Bros. Origins with the original roster and some vets and newcomers as unlockables but all in a new art style and engine to lead to a new build up to Ultimate 2 years more years away?

Most Smash games have had a different art style than the last. Brawl's was darker and more detailed, 4's was bright and saturated, Ultimate's was more washed out and pastel-oriented. They usually reflect the recent Zelda. The next Smash will probably have its own style as well, regardless of the direction it takes.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean, that has nothing to do with the Midori stuff. I'm not sure why that's being referenced here.

What happened with Midori by the way?

 

[Opossum]

What happened with Midori by the way?

It was a case of another previously-known and discredited leaker who was a white man LARPing as a Japanese woman, while mostly either presenting rumors as leaks or taking leaks from other leakers to appear more legitimate.

 

[Ivander]

It was a case of another previously-known and discredited leaker who was a white man LARPing as a Japanese woman, while mostly either presenting rumors as leaks or taking leaks from other leakers to appear more legitimate.

For the most part, but they were legitimate to some degree. Some of the leaks they had were legitimate info. Basically, all the info they had on stuff recently was because they had info on the working plans for stuff that Sega was planning and revising around the 2018-2022 mark and they were running out of stuff to leak, hence the turn to also leaking Nintendo and Square-Enix stuff that for the most part is stuff that may or may not be fake and/or stuff from other leakers.

That said, they are apparently on Sega's blacklist or something as they supposedly have an alleged record of stalking SEGA offices and attempting to blackmail and connect to their wifi.

 

[ninjahmos]

So I just had a thought for the next Smash game:

Should each character have their own victory theme, no matter which series they're from, with new renditions? For example, while Mario's victory theme could remain as the SMB1 Clear theme, Luigi's victory theme could be a snippet of the Luigi's Mansion Theme. And while DK's victory theme could still be the Bonus Game Win theme, Diddy's victory theme could be his victory theme from DKC2.

 

[fogbadge]

It was a case of another previously-known and discredited leaker who was a white man LARPing as a Japanese woman, while mostly either presenting rumors as leaks or taking leaks from other leakers to appear more legitimate.

I don’t know how to process this information

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It was a case of another previously-known and discredited leaker who was a white man LARPing as a Japanese woman, while mostly either presenting rumors as leaks or taking leaks from other leakers to appear more legitimate.

I feel like something like this has happened before.

 

[Garteam]

Daisy, Lucina, and Dark Pit aren't going anywhere. They're essentially glorified costumes with a handful of new animations and, in Dark Pit's case, new models. The only scenarios where they get cut are either development going horribly off the rails in terms of time management or the next game handling echoes differently. Richter can also go here if Konami is cool and licenses him.

Dark Samus and especially Ken require a little more work and could therefore be deprioritized, but they're still so non-intensive to develop that they'll likely be back. I could see Dark Samus having some issues if Samus is reworked to represent Dread. Chrom will be gone if Roy is cut, but he's in this category if Roy returns.

The whole conceit of echo fighters is that they're easy additions thrown in at the end of development to give certain characters another chance at inclusion, provide variations on pre-existing movesets, and bump up the roster's final count. There's really no reason to assume they won't return if the veteran they're based on is in the game with minimal changes. Yeah, Brawl cut a lot of the Melee clones, but the two that did return were heavily reworked and one of the cuts received a functional replacement in Toon Link. The Melee clones were cut because they became more difficult to develop and departed from being last-minute additions analogous to present-day echo fighters.

Anyway, Funky Kong and Big Boss/Naked Snake should be model-swap echoes and Jin Kazama should be a Ken-style echo.

 

[dream1ng]

I believe MysticDistance was someone who validated the Grinch leak, if memory serves.

He really got **** on by the fanbase afterwards.

But he has had accurate info about things like Persona in the past. No idea what his overall batting average is, don't really follow him.

 

[Ivander]

I believe MysticDistance was someone who validated the Grinch leak, if memory serves.

You're not wrong. While some people are saying there's no proof for it, there's a Gamefaqs post from 2018 that talks about Mystic advocating for the Grinch leak.

Do you trust Mystic? - Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

For Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on the Nintendo Switch, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Do you trust Mystic?" - Page 2.

gamefaqs.gamespot.com

 

[ninjahmos]

Jin Kazama should be a Ken-style echo.

That would probably mean mostly making him Tekken 3 Jin and/or Devil Jin.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Daisy, Lucina, and Dark Pit aren't going anywhere. They're essentially glorified costumes with a handful of new animations and, in Dark Pit's case, new models. The only scenarios where they get cut are either development going horribly off the rails in terms of time management or the next game handling echoes differently. Richter can also go here if Konami is cool and licenses him.

Dark Samus and especially Ken require a little more work and could therefore be deprioritized, but they're still so non-intensive to develop that they'll likely be back. I could see Dark Samus having some issues if Samus is reworked to represent Dread. Chrom will be gone if Roy is cut, but he's in this category if Roy returns.

The whole conceit of echo fighters is that they're easy additions thrown in at the end of development to give certain characters another chance at inclusion, provide variations on pre-existing movesets, and bump up the roster's final count. There's really no reason to assume they won't return if the veteran they're based on is in the game with minimal changes. Yeah, Brawl cut a lot of the Melee clones, but the two that did return were heavily reworked and one of the cuts received a functional replacement in Toon Link. The Melee clones were cut because they became more difficult to develop and departed from being last-minute additions analogous to present-day echo fighters.

Anyway, Funky Kong and Big Boss/Naked Snake should be model-swap echoes and Jin Kazama should be a Ken-style echo.

At least with Richter, he and Simon were made with each other. it makes sense both would be licensed together in that regard. That said, obviously Richter(like any other Echo) isn't going to be in if Simon isn't there. The chance Simon would come without Richter is pretty low, but a bit more possible. Ken is pretty clearly here to stay anyway unless Ryu gets cut. The other Echoes are not 3rd party, so if their base is there, why would they not return when they're really damn easy to make(only Chrom requires a tad more, admittedly, but that's closer to Ken levels of requirements, while still a tad less. That, and as you said; "the animations are done", so there's little reason to cut him once Roy is back). He's also the only one who has any real chance of staying with Roy cut, but it's an extremely unlikely scenario and it wouldn't really make much sense. He's supposed to be a special clone for Roy. That's the whole point of an Echo. Whereas other cloned movesets have no real relation in the same way. Echoes are their own thing at the end of the day.

That said, hasn't Sakurai made it clear glorified costumes is pretty much inaccurate? As they had to have enough differences to separate. Like, I don't disagree with the sentiment, but in practice, they're given changes so they won't be glorified costumes. ...That, and Lucina's lack of a sweetspot makes her getting played quite differently in Ultimate, so she's not a good example like the rest. Richter is a glorified costume alongside Daisy and Dark Pit. Dark Samus can be somewhat added in there too if you want, though all her elements being electricity can edge out of that, but that's a matter of opinion on how far away they need to be, heh.

 

[Opossum]

I feel like something like this has happened before.

Well, more like two times. But still considerably more than once.

 

[dream1ng]

Daisy, Lucina, and Dark Pit aren't going anywhere. They're essentially glorified costumes with a handful of new animations and, in Dark Pit's case, new models. The only scenarios where they get cut are either development going horribly off the rails in terms of time management or the next game handling echoes differently. Richter can also go here if Konami is cool and licenses him.

Dark Samus and especially Ken require a little more work and could therefore be deprioritized, but they're still so non-intensive to develop that they'll likely be back. I could see Dark Samus having some issues if Samus is reworked to represent Dread. Chrom will be gone if Roy is cut, but he's in this category if Roy returns.

The whole conceit of echo fighters is that they're easy additions thrown in at the end of development to give certain characters another chance at inclusion, provide variations on pre-existing movesets, and bump up the roster's final count. There's really no reason to assume they won't return if the veteran they're based on is in the game with minimal changes. Yeah, Brawl cut a lot of the Melee clones, but the two that did return were heavily reworked and one of the cuts received a functional replacement in Toon Link. The Melee clones were cut because they became more difficult to develop and departed from being last-minute additions analogous to present-day echo fighters.

Anyway, Funky Kong and Big Boss/Naked Snake should be model-swap echoes and Jin Kazama should be a Ken-style echo.

I agree from a development standpoint they are very easy to bring back but the bonus nature of their additions whereby they've been likened to some free dessert by Sakurai has also given the category somewhat of a last in first out nature in development, where they are seen as "bonus" to the content, meaning at least some appear to be seen as supplemental and therefore not essential, and therefore often prioritized more lowly.

I don't think Smash is made on the basis of a character like Lucina being just under Marth in terms of priority, so bringing one back will basically just bring the other as well. I think, though there are exceptions here and there, it's a case where a character like Marth is prioritized much much higher than a character like Lucina, and then once a certain number of higher priority characters are sorted, they will then, should time permit, move to those considered more supplemental by nature of being derivative. And I think that results in some making it back, and some not.

So I don't think any of the more direct clones are safe. Because the argument that they're easy to bring back is entirely accurate but not the basis on which the Smash team always operates. It's evaluating them on parameters which may end up being different to the actual ones they encounter.

 

[ninjahmos]

This has probably already been discussed before, but do you think, with the Famicom Detective Club remakes, Ayumi Tachibana may actually have a chance in the next Smash game?

On an unrelated note, I'm still hoping for a Shin Onigashima remake.

 

[fogbadge]

That reminds me, I’ve been wondering if it would be possible for the FDC protagonist to be an alt for Ayumi like with the WFT

 

[Ivander]

This has probably already been discussed before, but do you think, with the Famicom Detective Club remakes, Ayumi Tachibana may actually have a chance in the next Smash game?

On an unrelated note, I'm still hoping for a Shin Onigashima remake.

If we get a remake of Shin Onigashima after the Famicom Detective Club remakes, there's only the logical thing left to do and that is to remake this.

---
Anyway, I'll wait and see what happens when the new Smash is finally announced and shown. Sure, Ayumi has more of a chance now, but will she get in? Only time will tell.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The characters that I definitely think will never go away are:

Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Peach
Bowser
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
Kirby
Pikachu
Samus
Pit

I think Sonic should be in there too.

Yeah he's third party but he's been in every smash game since his introduction, he very much doesnt fall into "Guest character" status at this point imo.

That reminds me, I’ve been wondering if it would be possible for the FDC protagonist to be an alt for Ayumi like with the WFT

The protagonist should probably be the one in by default, Ayumi is barely around in the first game and doesnt become relevant until the second game. (And the third one if that one counts, granted that one was satellaview exclusive)

 

[dream1ng]

You're not wrong. While some people are saying there's no proof for it, there's a Gamefaqs post from 2018 that talks about Mystic advocating for the Grinch leak.

Do you trust Mystic? - Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

For Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on the Nintendo Switch, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Do you trust Mystic?" - Page 2.

gamefaqs.gamespot.com

I found his claims:

https://archive.is/4FzPg

 

[TheQuester]

So guys, three questions. Do you think there's a chance that some of the assist trophies may become characters in the next smash bros (aside from waluigi, that is)

There's a good chance imo.
In fact, these are the AT i could see having a chance of getting promoted and it's not a small list:

. Waluigi
. Ashley
. Bomberman
. Isaac
. Shadow
. Shovel Knight
. Squid Sisters
. Takamaru



Some New ATs ideas tho:
. Tethu (Ever Oasis): Swings his sword and creathes small whirlwinds.
. Demille (Tomato Adventure): Jumps around, mainly attacks with his yo-yo, but uses his other "gimmicks" as well sometimes.
. Aeron (Pandora's Tower): Attacks with his chains, giving him good range.
. Eunie (Xenoblade 3): Shoots and also supports you and your teamates with healing arts
. Off the Hook (Splatoon 2): Replaces Squid Sisters AT if they're playable.
. Sylux (Metroid): Dunno, i think he would be cool as an AT
. Taranza (Kirby)
. Glass Joe (Punch-Out): Jokeish AT.
. Silver (Sonic): Grabs enemies in the air, making them comboeable for a few seconds.
. Zagreus (Hades): If he's not playable i think he makes sense to add as an AT at least.
. Valkyrie (Legend of Valkyrie): Unexpected AT from Namco
. Hsien-Ko (Darkstalkers): She seems the most suited AT from Darkstalkers except maybe Talbain, for a popular capcom AT.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Looking at Shovel Knight: Shield of Hope Deluxe, I saw quite a lot of new abilities that they've added to him since I got the original game on the 3Ds. I'd be real interested to see what of that new stuff they'd incorperate if they picked him.

The only one safe is Duck Hunt. Everyone else better watch their goddamn backs.

DOG GANG RISE UUUUP!!!

 

[SPEN18]

Snake and Simon both got into Ultimate on the basis of being high in the ballot, especially Snake, I can't see both getting cut. I would assume that if one were to stick around, it would be Snake

I should point out again that the ballot performance for previously cut veterans is very weak evidence of future priority. For one, it doesn't tell us anything about how those characters measure up in popularity to the veterans which didn't get cut in 4.

But nor does it even really tell us Snake's current standing in the Smash community relative to Simon, now that Simon is in Smash. Even though Simon was at least eligible to be voted for on the ballot. Because the circumstances surrounding the ballot were basically optimal for cut veterans to perform well.

Tbh I'd actually be pretty shocked if Snake was prioritized more than Simon, but that's just me.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Because it would've gone against Mario's beginner-friendly playstyle.

Hat Toss would be more beginner-friendly than FLUDD.

For one thing, implementing it outside of a basic projectile can require a lot of work. Like, how do you represent it meaningfully without some extra stuff? The whole point is it takes over a character.

Then don't do that.

Just make it fly out, and if you hold the button it hovers in place, where it causes repeated hits, and Mario can bounce off it.

That's how it works in Odyssey on targets that already have hats.

 

[Louie G.]

I should point out again that the ballot performance for previously cut veterans is very weak evidence of future priority. For one, it doesn't tell us anything about how those characters measure up in popularity to the veterans which didn't get cut in 4.

But nor does it even really tell us Snake's current standing in the Smash community relative to Simon, now that Simon is in Smash. Even though Simon was at least eligible to be voted for on the ballot. Because the circumstances surrounding the ballot were basically optimal for cut veterans to perform well.

Yeah, and I mean not to discredit Snake but I think generally seniority gives Smash characters an edge within the community. If you cut Jigglypuff now, people are gonna be upset right? But if you added Jigglypuff in Ultimate, and then cut her one game later... I think that'd be equivalent to cutting Plant, which most people are comfortable with. But if Plant was in 64... you get the picture. The "series staple" effect, a character's value is typically heightened by the fans if they were added in Brawl or earlier.

Snake is obviously a more popular character than these other examples of his own merit. He's the protagonist of a very successful series, so I'm not saying this popularity is exclusively founded in his role in Brawl. But I do think the mindset that breeds "[x] is more popular / has seniority" results in roster stagnation. I would be glad to welcome Snake back, but it would kind of suck to snip off a brand new series on the basis of seniority right (if it really had to come down to one)? The team seemed very excited to work with Castlevania, and the Metal Gear content was more or less the same from Brawl. So as far as series presence goes I get the impression that Castlevania may have a lot of room to grow.

Then again I probably wouldn't be so open to this "your turn" mentality toward like, cutting Mega Man, so I don't know. I just think we ought to be more fluid with guests, and we probably will have to be. I suppose since we lost Snake once before it's easier for me to accept losing him again.

 

[dream1ng]

I should point out again that the ballot performance for previously cut veterans is very weak evidence of future priority. For one, it doesn't tell us anything about how those characters measure up in popularity to the veterans which didn't get cut in 4.

But nor does it even really tell us Snake's current standing in the Smash community relative to Simon, now that Simon is in Smash. Even though Simon was at least eligible to be voted for on the ballot. Because the circumstances surrounding the ballot were basically optimal for cut veterans to perform well.

Tbh I'd actually be pretty shocked if Snake was prioritized more than Simon, but that's just me.

The thing is the data is indeed quite flawed for vets since almost none of them were applicable at the time, but it may still be used regardless just on the basis of, like, "wow, Snake was number (let's say) four on the ballot! We probably shouldn't cut him..."

Not so much that he's more popular than x character, just that he was clearly very popular. Which I agree, is due to how the ballot worked, but it nevertheless may still prove influential in character retention.

 

[SPEN18]

Then again I probably wouldn't be so open to this "your turn" mentality toward like, cutting Mega Man, so I don't know. I just think we ought to be more fluid with guests, and we probably will have to be. I suppose since we lost Snake once before it's easier for me to accept losing him again.

Although Mega Man was a way more centralizing force of third party demand after Sonic got in. Plus the history on the NES and such. Which gives a more material argument for him being a high-priority third party beyond simply being here longer.

I think one of the reasons that "seniority" and such get leaned on so much is that many fans aren't used to or as comfortable with talking about merit-based priority and comparing specific characters in that fashion. Pointing to attendance record is just an easy crutch to justify statements without risk of putting a more critical eye towards characters they may be fond of. Or an easy (albeit ultimately arbitrary) tiebreaker if they are unable to discern who should be higher. Plus a lot of fans hold to a very rough notion of the more important characters being added first, which may hold on the surface level of Mario being added multiple games before Little Mac was, but in reality is very far from consistent, completely ignores contexts for why certain characters were added or not added at certain points in history, and sometimes even breaks down completely when it comes to characters who simply weren't feasible, licensable, or even existent when Smash rosters prior were decided.

At the end of the day most people operate on "feel" at least for a starting point with their arguments (and characters being here longer can contribute to one's "sense" of their importance), but sometimes that can lead astray.

Thing is, even if you're trying to say one character should be prioritized over another based on seniority, supporting that argument forces you anyway to examine the specific circumstances and merits leading to those characters' inclusions or lack thereof in each game to this point. Because of all the pitfalls in this line of thinking I mentioned earlier. But if you're delving into all of that any way you try to slice it, then the seniority factor either gets completely superseded by a more concrete argument, or simply reduces to that arbitrary tiebreaker if further investigation seems inconclusive.