Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

I can't see the appeal of Eevee as a Smash fighter past being a cute fox/doggo.
I think it would be cool if its moves transform it into a different evolution, like down B is Flareon shooting a pillar of fire and grab/throws are Umbreon because dark types are mean, etc. etc., making Eevee essentially a shapeshifter.

But de-evolution is not a thing in Pokémon games, so this concept wouldn't work.
However on the other hand, Eevee without its evolutions is very plain, by design.
I'm sure there's some ways to ignore them, but at the end of the day the different evolutions are the trait that really makes the character unique, and it's the one thing that can't be represented through a Smash moveset unless you rewrite the original series' rules.
So I don't know, I think that Eevee is in a very weird place when it comes to Smash.

I think the way to do it is to use Let’s Go Eevee for the moveset so it can use all the elements of its evolutions for its attacks. You can reference its Z move, Extreme Eevoboost to have a spectral version of the corresponding evolution appear for each elemental attack.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So I don't know, I think that Eevee is in a very weird place when it comes to Smash.

Said it before, but the best way to represent what Eevee is all about is to tweak the Poké Ball summon to where Eevee has a chance to evolve into one of its evolutions before performing an attack.

 

[Laniv]

I would really love another Legendary or non fully evolved Pokemon included. We haven't gotten a new one of those since Melee/Brawl respectively.

Genesect would be so cool

 

[Guynamednelson]

I can't see the appeal of Eevee as a Smash fighter past being a cute

And that's the thing: That's the kind of Pokemon I wanna play as. And given the inevitable roster purges necessary to have base game newcomers that'll most likely target Pichu and maybe Squirtle and/or Jigglypuff combined with what kinds of Pokemon newcomers TPC allows Smash to have...I'm afraid there aren't that many other options.

 

[PeridotGX]

I've been Magnetpilled for some time now.

This is one letter away from being typed by Gen 3 Scarmory

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

This is one letter away from being typed by Gen 3 Scarmory

Obligatory text

 

[TheQuester]

What would you say are the 7 most likely 1stparties and 7 most likely 3rd parties to get in?

 

[Perkilator]

What would you say are the 7 most likely 1stparties and 7 most likely 3rd parties to get in?

I'm actually working on an article for 7 first party newcomers but TL;DR, those characters are:

• Officer Howard
• Ring Fit Trainee
• Raven Beak
• Noah & Mio
• Meowscarada
• Alear
• Rauru

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

How would you all feel if Psaro Banesword got into Smash (Villain of DQ4 also Protagonist of DQ Monster The Dark Prince.)
He's probably my most wanted 3rd Part Villain nowadays, Cause I feel like he could have an extremely varied moveset.
Dragon Quest is in my opinion one of the most deserving 3rd Party series to be in Smash considering its massive amount of popular especially in Japan + How hugely influential it is on the RPG genre.
Personally I wouldn't find a second DQ character to be too many.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

How would you all feel if Psaro Banesword got into Smash (Villain of DQ4 also Protagonist of DQ Monster The Dark Prince.)
He's probably my most wanted 3rd Part Villain nowadays, Cause I feel like he could have an extremely varied moveset.
Dragon Quest is in my opinion one of the most deserving 3rd Party series to be in Smash considering its massive amount of popular especially in Japan + How hugely influential it is on the RPG genre.
Personally I wouldn't find a second DQ character to be too many.
View attachment 390094

Admittedly, I don't know much about Dragon Quest, but is he really the most appropriate second character choice?

Like Slime was almost picked instead of Hero.

That said, he looks rad.

 

[Idon]

Admittedly, I don't know much about Dragon Quest, but is he really the most appropriate second character choice?

Like Slime was almost picked instead of Hero.

That said, he looks rad.

If you want to actually appeal to dragon quest fans and not boxart starers, yeah.

You know someone's popular when they have an entire spinoff game about them.

 

[TheQuester]

Admittedly, I don't know much about Dragon Quest, but is he really the most appropriate second character choice?

Like Slime was almost picked instead of Hero.

That said, he looks rad.

As a Dragon Quest i would rather have one of the party members from through the series like Jessica, Yangus, Sylvando, Carver, Maribel...etc than Slime.
I think Dragonlord, Alena or Terry would be my choices for a 2nd DQ rep.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Admittedly, I don't know much about Dragon Quest, but is he really the most appropriate second character choice?

Like Slime was almost picked instead of Hero.

That said, he looks rad.

I'd gladly take Slime as the second option. It's a glorious monster Oozing with potential. Can also go with Rocket Slime, who is more defined(there a few regular Slime species who are actual characters too, like in the first Dragon Quest Monsters game. Rocket Slime as well, which is easily more defined too).

Besides that, Rocket Slime has tons of various characters with very funny names that would make for wonderful references/spirits as is~

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

If you want to actually appeal to dragon quest fans and not boxart starers, yeah.

You know someone's popular when they have an entire spinoff game about them.

I love the Slime but it kind of feels better to have him as a part of other characters movesets.
I feel like Slime wouldn't really capture the feel of the games in terms of gameplay or story like, At all.

 

[TheQuester]

I love the Slime but it kind of feels better to have him as a part of other characters movesets.
I feel like Slime wouldn't really capture the feel of the games in terms of gameplay or story like, At all.

Yeah, i like slimes, but i'd rather play as Alena, Terry or Jessica over them in Smash Bros.
But Slime is not a bad choice, but i'd rather have one of the party members.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

On an unrelated note, It's approaching June 30th, The day where every year I make a new top ten most wanted characters list. (Since last year.)
I'm looking at the old one and I feel like its gonna end up pretty different with some very unconventional choices because that's kind of just how I am.

 

[TheQuester]

I'm actually working on an article for 7 first party newcomers but TL;DR, those characters are:

• Officer Howard
• Ring Fit Trainee
• Raven Beak
• Noah & Mio
• Meowscarada
• Alear
• Rauru

Interesting, good list!
I'm not sure if i'd call Raven Beak or Rauru likely, specially not over Waluigi or Octoling.
What do you think makes them likely?

 

[Noipoi]

I’m not so sure the people would be pleased by the slime.

I remember (and this was years ago at this point) but we were debating a Square rep. Going back and forth on Hero, Sora, Sephiroth, and so on. And I made a joke about how they should just put in a Chocobo so no one would get mad.

And everyone got mad at me

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

I don't know I feel like it might be a bit late for an Astral Chain character since it didn't really do that super well.
But I guess we did get Min Min and I suppose arguably Shulk in somewhat similar situations.
I guess I just feel like "Likely" is kind of a stretch,

 

[Idon]

I don't know I feel like it might be a bit late for an Astral Chain character since it didn't really do that super well.
But I guess we did get Min Min and I suppose arguably Shulk in somewhat similar situations.
I guess I just feel like "Likely" is kind of a stretch,

Sorry but I must defend my pet series's honor

Astral Chain actually did pretty dang well.

1.3 Million sales, notably outselling all the Bayonettas, Princess Peach Showtime and the new Mario vs DK.

In my opinion, this is easily Smash sellable numbers, especially if they (hopefully) continue the series beyond just a single entry.

 

[Noipoi]

I don't know I feel like it might be a bit late for an Astral Chain character since it didn't really do that super well.
But I guess we did get Min Min and I suppose arguably Shulk in somewhat similar situations.
I guess I just feel like "Likely" is kind of a stretch,

If we’re talking Astral Chain as a promotional type character then yes, I think it’s way too late. But If they're looking for modern protagonists (like how Sakurai was complaining that Olimar was already an old fart by the time Brawl dropped) then I guess so.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

Sorry but I must defend my pet series's honor

Astral Chain actually did pretty dang well.


1.3 Million sales, notably outselling all the Bayonettas, Princess Peach Showtime and the new Mario vs DK.

In my opinion, this is easily Smash sellable numbers, especially if they (hopefully) continue the series beyond just a single entry.

Of the games its outselling on this list three are either remakes of games that have been out for a decade or more (Bayonetta 1 and 2, And Mario vs Donkey Kong.)
And then Brain Training and Game Builder Garage which fall into that weird category of Generic Nintendo Titles which have never been the most popular.
I have no excuse for Bayonetta 3 and Peach Showtime though i'm honestly shocked those are that low.

If it gets a sequel though then yeah **** it put in an Astral Chain character.

Mainly though I don't feel like an Astral Chain character make top 7 in terms of First Party characters.
I know this is probably something no one wants to hear but I think that it's gonna be high priority for Nintendo to push for Cranky Kong and Kamek because of the Mario movie.
Those two I think are definitely more likely as much as they probably aren't as interesting or frankly, Fun.

 

[Louie G.]

The situation with Astral Chain IMO is that its odds just hinge on how compelled Sakurai is intrigued by its mechanics or moveset potential. Or perhaps if Nintendo has further plans for the series and tips Sakurai off on that front. Otherwise I think despite its moderate success it strikes me in a similar way to other glossed over series of the past like Golden Sun... but then you have a series like Xenoblade that got lucky. It's really just kind of a crapshoot.

Certainly not as much of a no brainer as Ring Fit Adventure, but not worth ignoring entirely. My expectations for it aren't especially high but I don't particularly blame anyone for keeping a close eye on it either. I really do think its best odds are just through the scenario that Sakurai thought it was really, really cool.

 

[Noipoi]

Would Ring Fit Trainer be counted as a Wii Fit character or would they have their own series?

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

Would Ring Fit Trainer be counted as a Wii Fit character or would they have their own series?

Maybe they'd rename Wii Fit to just uh... Fit.

This made me realize the solution to the "Would Waluigi be counted as a Mario character or a Wario character?" question, The solution is to give Waluigi his own category entirely. Objectively it just makes the most sense.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Would Ring Fit Trainer be counted as a Wii Fit character or would they have their own series?

Ring Fit Adventure. It's a completely separate series from Wii Fit.

This made me realize the solution to the "Would Waluigi be counted as a Mario character or a Wario character?" question, The solution is to give Waluigi his own category entirely. Objectively it just makes the most sense.

He can't really be a WarioWare Character since he's never made an appearance in a single Wario game, so as weird as would look, he has to be a Mario character. He could get placed next to Wario on the character select screen though.

 

[Noipoi]

He can't really be a WarioWare Character since he's never made an appearance in a single Wario game, so as weird as would look, he has to be a Mario character. He could get placed next to Wario on the character select screen though.

Hey, that’s right. The characters likely won’t be laid out by number anymore. I hadn’t thought about that.

I wonder how the CSS will be set up next time. I remember 4’s was just a bit weird.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Would Ring Fit Trainer be counted as a Wii Fit character or would they have their own series?

Obviously its own series.

Wii Fit and Ring Fit Adventure are completely separate IPs that have nothing to do with each other outside both being fitness based.

Look no further than the fact the Ring Fit Spirits do not count for Wii Fit Spirits and thus don't give any special boost to Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He can't really be a WarioWare Character since he's never made an appearance in a single Wario game, so as weird as would look, he has to be a Mario character. He could get placed next to Wario on the character select screen though.

He's been referenced, but that's it.

It depends where DK and Yoshi go. Yoshi is probably going to be after DK or Mario, though at least sometimes Wario is after Mario. However, he's also been after Yoshi and DK(in that order). 4 is the only one to really not follow a logical pattern, but it's possible Bowser Jr. and Rosalina were late ideas or something and got oddly added in the order they're in. It does make sense in terms of "game appearances", at least. That said, basically, Yoshi was before Wario even then, not Mario, proper. DK and Yoshi have also been changed which order come first. Wario sometimes comes before or after DK too. It's not all that consistent beyond currently Wario not being directly next to Mario in order.

That, and 4 had characters split up in a less than logical order, so it doesn't mean much either. Again, the Clone Trio was in a pretty odd spot. Then the DLC came about and showed it didn't have a very consistent order anyway, so it was never a good CSS to look at for a clear consistent theme regardless. You can somewhat justify Yoshi, and even the Clone Trio. But come DLC, and the franchise order just didn't matter anymore.

We also don't know if they're going to completely change the CSS. They might remove the numbers, but still keep the same order(including Echoes only atop the originals). I wouldn't put too much stock into that kind of theory, especially when characters do often get laid out by a very clear logic. And "from the same franchise" is not necessarily the most important logic either(despite what it may seem, it keeps getting thrown out for a different kind of logic).

(To note, while the first three games did appeal to franchise order, Smash 64 barely had any characters, and was going to have exactly one character per franchise till they had enough time to make a bunch of Model Swap Characters. Then Melee was somewhat strange by not having much of a pattern(though it wasn't beyond that bad), and Brawl kept an actual consistent design. 4 completely threw it out the window by going for other logic, and Ultimate did away with it entirely. The only actual straight cases in Ultimate would be the Echoes due to being chosen from the same franchise to begin with(and if they weren't, well, they'd still be next to them), and special ones like Mii Fighters and the Transformation characters sometimes. But only cause they just happened to have the right time of reveal).

 

[Louie G.]

I wonder how the CSS will be set up next time. I remember 4’s was just a bit weird.

I thought Smash 4's layout was the one that made the most practical sense, with characters from the same series being right next to one another and residing in the same row. Not fundamentally different than Melee but that one had Ganondorf next to Captain Falcon. Smash 4 just had a couple weird outliers like Yoshi's placement I guess (I don't really mind this one, tbh) and the clones clumping together toward the bottom.

Smash 4's approach to roster organization + adopting Smash Ultimate's treatment of echo fighters would be ideal. To me, at least.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If we're talking personal picks, then my favorite Pokemon is Breloom, so make of that what you will.

Breloom was my go-to capture Pokemon for a long time, thanks to having Spore and False Swipe. Until I replaced him with Gallade.

I'm the resident Pokemon master, I gotta stay on top of this stuff

You son of a...

What would you say are the 7 most likely 1stparties and 7 most likely 3rd parties to get in?

What is this, homework? Why so many?

 

[Wonder Smash]

What would you say are the 7 most likely 1stparties and 7 most likely 3rd parties to get in?

Why does it have to be 7?

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

Why does it have to be 7?

I feel like 8 is more fitting, With like the whole 8 original stars thing.

 

[DarthEnderX]

How would you all feel if Psaro Banesword got into Smash (Villain of DQ4 also Protagonist of DQ Monster The Dark Prince.)

Pleasantly surprised.

That said, he looks rad.

He looks like they told Toriyama to draw Sephiroth.

Now, granted, Psaro is older than Sephiroth. But he didn't get a real character design until after the PS1 remake, 5 years after FF7. He originally just looked like this:

As a Dragon Quest i would rather have one of the party members from through the series like Jessica, Yangus, Sylvando, Carver, Maribel...etc than Slime.

After adding a protagonist as a series' first Smash character, I always prefer to get a villain for a subsequent character. And Psaro is easily the best DQ villain option.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Astral Chain is something I never cared for but it does tick all the boxes for a new post-ultimate's-release character in that incredibly crucial "will core gamers care about this slot". It's pretty much just them and Ring Fit at this point for new franchises that have any sort of notoriety- you can argue it's a very distant 2nd place, but Nintendo really didn't make new franchises in the last 5 years (or at least ones that we can argue for smash), a trend that's probably going to continue if the hardware jump hits their efficancy as hard as it did for xbox and sony when they transitioned to that level of power a gen ago.

I feel like there wouldn't be nearly as much doubt to AC's smash potential if Platinum's future as a whole didn't look as shaky as it did. Granted, even if the worst-case scenario happens to Platinum... I don't think it would factor that heavily into the chance's of getting a character from it? Gut feeling, but again it's a new IP that sold about as well as it realistically could have.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

8 was fine for Ultimate, but it's really low with giant rosters(that, and it was a special situation that won't come that easily again. We do have the possibility for another EIH, but that could be a loooooong time from now). Depending its size, you could also base it somewhat around previous game's base starters to get a decent number too.

If we remove those promoted to starters in general;
-Smash 64: 8
-Melee: 13
-Brawl: 25(notably no one from Melee was promoted to Starter here)
-4: 31

So 31 out of over 70 isn't that bad in general. The ones removed from this list are Ness, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Luigi, Marth, Ganondorf, Bowser Jr., Sonic, Toon Link, Mewtwo, and Roy. So nearly half have been starters too, funnily enough. Even if it's mostly an oddity of the Wii U version. However, those promoted to starter in it were at one point unlockable too, funnily enough. Even if it's just from the 3DS version.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I've decided to try my hand at a roster mockup. The amount of slots was at 50, but Echo Fighters don't count toward that total. Pretend the second to last row is centered. Newcomers are in bold, Echo Fighters are italicized.

Spoiler

Mario	Luigi	Peach	Daisy	Bowser	Geno
Donkey Kong	Funky Kong	Yoshi	Wario	Kirby	King Dedede
Link	Zelda	Ganondorf	Samus	Dark Samus	??? (Metroid)*
Pikachu	Pokémon Trainer	??? (Pokémon)**	Ness	Captain Falcon	Fox
Marth	Lucina	Ike	Robin	Olimar	Explorer***
Villager	Isabelle	Tom Nook	Shulk	Mio	Nia
Inkling	Min Min	Ring Fit Trainee	Snake	Sonic	Pac-Man
Mega Man	Proto Man	Ryu	Ken	Chun-Li	Rathalos
Chell	Cloud	Hero	Banjo & Kazooie	Steve
	Mii Brawler	Mii Swordfighter	Mii Gunner	Random

*To be clear, this is not Ravenbeak. It's a character from Metroid Prime 4.
**This actually could (and I think is more likely to) be a character from Pokémon Scarlet/Violet, but could also be a Gen 10 starter.
***Since it's not an obvious conclusion, I'll elaborate that the Explorer from Pikmin 4 has gameplay differences to justify not just being another skin: Instead of Purple and White Pikmin, Explorer wields Rock and Ice Pikmin. Rock Pikmin don't latch on, but they do slightly more damage than Red Pikmin, and scary shield damage. Ice Pikmin have very low damage, but if they're latched on for long enough, they freeze opponents.

 

[Louie G.]

*To be clear, this is not Ravenbeak. It's a character from Metroid Prime 4.

I've got a few other qualms with this, but a (presumably) decloned Dark Samus AND a Metroid newcomer over Ridley returning? Why??

 

[ShotoStar]

How would you all feel if Psaro Banesword got into Smash (Villain of DQ4 also Protagonist of DQ Monster The Dark Prince.)
He's probably my most wanted 3rd Part Villain nowadays, Cause I feel like he could have an extremely varied moveset.
Dragon Quest is in my opinion one of the most deserving 3rd Party series to be in Smash considering its massive amount of popular especially in Japan + How hugely influential it is on the RPG genre.
Personally I wouldn't find a second DQ character to be too many.
View attachment 390094

inb4 this becomes a reality and Dragon Quest gets a second character before Geno ever gets added. I would not mind another Dragon Quest character in theory but they'd have to be really cool for me to care. I was accepting of Hero because I understand Dragon Quest is a massive franchise, they did a cool four alts thing, and the RNG/magic meter is a cool concept so I'm cool with it. ...however I think there are more important franchises like Nier, Bravely, even other Final Fantasy games (like FFXIV) if we want to count each game as their own "franchise" like the Smash Bros site does for FF7 before dipping into another Dragon Quest character. ...and then there's the aforementioned Geno who I dearly, dearly want but I'd laugh my ass off if a second DQ character got in first, it would be funny in a masochistic way

 

[SharkLord]

I've decided to try my hand at a roster mockup. The amount of slots was at 50, but Echo Fighters don't count toward that total. Pretend the second to last row is centered. Newcomers are in bold, Echo Fighters are italicized.

Spoiler

Mario	Luigi	Peach	Daisy	Bowser	Geno
Donkey Kong	Funky Kong	Yoshi	Wario	Kirby	King Dedede
Link	Zelda	Ganondorf	Samus	Dark Samus	??? (Metroid)*
Pikachu	Pokémon Trainer	??? (Pokémon)**	Ness	Captain Falcon	Fox
Marth	Lucina	Ike	Robin	Olimar	Explorer***
Villager	Isabelle	Tom Nook	Shulk	Mio	Nia
Inkling	Min Min	Ring Fit Trainee	Snake	Sonic	Pac-Man
Mega Man	Proto Man	Ryu	Ken	Chun-Li	Rathalos
Chell	Cloud	Hero	Banjo & Kazooie	Steve
	Mii Brawler	Mii Swordfighter	Mii Gunner	Random

*To be clear, this is not Ravenbeak. It's a character from Metroid Prime 4.
**This actually could (and I think is more likely to) be a character from Pokémon Scarlet/Violet, but could also be a Gen 10 starter.
***Since it's not an obvious conclusion, I'll elaborate that the Explorer from Pikmin 4 has gameplay differences to justify not just being another skin: Instead of Purple and White Pikmin, Explorer wields Rock and Ice Pikmin. Rock Pikmin don't latch on, but they do slightly more damage than Red Pikmin, and scary shield damage. Ice Pikmin have very low damage, but if they're latched on for long enough, they freeze opponents.

I get 50 fighters is a tight squeeze, but I feel like we're gonna have to agree to disagree here because I've got a lot of gripes with this roster

1. Even considering Funky Kong is an Echo and not a full fighter, Diddy's been a mainstay for a while and K. Rool got in through sheer ballot power. Losing them both is kinda rough
2. Meta Knight is a baffling omission; Kirby's been a consistent release and Meta's been a series staple of both Kirby and Smash for decades. I could get not having enough room for a newcomer, but I really don't see Kirby losing any veterans
3. I get that Ridley's presumably dead and gone for good, but so is Dark Samus. It feels weird to prioritize an MP4 rep over either of them
4. Pokemon's representation seems extremely limited for the single biggest franchise in the world. I dunno, it feels likethere would be at least one more veteran preserved
5. The Pikmin 4 Explorer as an Echo isn't impossible, but it feels weird given that Oatchi was a big focus
6. Given that we have placeholders for future Pokemon and Metroid reps, it feels weird to not save a slot for Fire Emblem, seeing as Corrin and Byleth have both had slots chosen in advance
7. I highly doubt we'd drop Pyra and Mythra. I'll let Nia slide though, since she's an Echo
8. Rathalos specifically as the Monster Hunter rep over, y'know, the Hunters is really, really weird. I get that Rathalos shows up the most because it's just easier to drop a dragon boss into games, but Smash almost always favors the player character. And while there have been dev statements on preferring the monsters as the series' main representatives, that was before Marvel vs Capcom Infinite - And that game's like 7 years old - And also before Monster Hunter became a worldwide thing with World. And either way, we've had Smash break past precedents before with Hero over Slime, seeing as Squeenix has been very hesitant to put any DQ Hero in spinoffs.
9. I'll let you have Chell. I'd argue she feels more like a DLC character, since Portal is a beloved series but only has two games and isn't strongly associated with Nintendo, but y'know what? She'd be cool, so I'll let it slide