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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Louie G.

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I just... don't expect them to pick into the idols before we get an Octoling, be it as an Echo, as alts for Inkling or as a unique fighter.
Yeah to be clear, I'm on the same page with you on that. Octoling is 100%, literally 100%, guaranteed to be playable in some fashion and what makes them such a fascinating "shoo-in" is how many different possibilities there are.

I'm mostly banking on a second Splatoon newcomer if they don't go all the way giving them a fully unique kit. The idols are inspiring to me because of the musical element more than any weapons they use in-game, so perhaps we're of a bit of a different mind about it. But if we gave Octoling some new gadgets as an Inkling semiclone and built up an idol group as a unique music based character I think that'd be enough variety to justify them both. I'd understand it being kind of a tricky sell (especially over a hypothetical unique Octoling) if I was just suggesting "Inkling but there are two of them".
 
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pitchfulprocessing

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It should also be noted it wouldn't be the first time negotiating with Western-owned IPs for character slots (Banjo and Steve) nor even the first time Nintendo talked with Supergiant about Hades content in Smash (the Zagreus spirit)

Not a lot of indie games can brag about some of their content being part of Smash Ultimate's Spirit lineup. Most notably, it did so before Undertale (still baffled we never got a Sans fight despite getting the Mii outfit).
Yeah, I moreso mean in the sense that it would just be more difficult for Sakurai and the legal team to communicate with an overseas company in a different language, especially with how hands-on Sakurai is.

Though in that sense, negotiating with an indie company like Supergiant would be way easier than doing it with a company like Microsoft/Mojang lol. Supergiant currently has like, less than 25 employees, there's way less barriers to jump through as opposed to a massive corporation with way more moving parts and a much bigger legal team while also having to keep it private.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I'm mostly banking on a second Splatoon newcomer if they don't go all the way giving them a fully unique kit. The idols are inspiring to me because of the musical element more than any weapons they use in-game, so perhaps we're of a bit of a different mind about it. But if we gave Octoling some new gadgets as an Inkling semiclone and built up an idol group as a unique music based character I think that'd be enough variety to justify them both. I'd understand it being kind of a tricky sell, especially over a hypothetical unique Octoling, if I was just suggesting "Inkling but there are two of them".
Oh yeah, the musical aspect would be a bit part about them. But I don't expect Marina to have a moveset consisting of bashing people's heads with a keytar even if they lean on that angle. It would still involve the game's actual weapons in some ways.
 
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Sucumbio

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Here's a question for the thread: Are there any characters you feel are generally slept on as far as base game newcomers go?

I'd say Bomberman, Alucard, X, and (a unique) Octoling personally.
I feel like we're sleeping on a gold mine of possible base newcomers, the kind that only ...

images (35).jpeg


could fathom!
 
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Louie G.

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Oh yeah, the musical aspect would be a bit part about them. But I don't expect Marina to have a moveset consisting of bashing people's heads with a keytar even if they lean on that angle. It would still involve the game's actual weapons in some ways.
I'd be down for some attacks where Pearl whips out the dualies and Marina spins around a splat brella. I'd probably leave it at that with them in contrast with Inkling's philosophy of pulling out anything and everything, and then take some liberties with Pearl's physicality and Marina's more passive DJ role for the rest.

And sure, Marina probably wouldn't be bashing people's heads in with a keytar. Pearl on the other hand...
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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I'd be down for some attacks where Pearl whips out the dualies and Marina spins around a splat brella. I'd probably leave it at that with them in contrast with Inkling's philosophy of pulling out anything and everything, and then take some liberties with Pearl's physicality and Marina's more passive DJ role for the rest.

And sure, Marina probably wouldn't be bashing people's heads in with a keytar. Pearl on the other hand...
Yeah, make a full moveset out of the one weapon they like instead of making them a walking armory. It'd be nice.

Also, Pearl would've 100% dropped Manta Maria on the stage as a Final Smash if the mere act of her screaming wasn't more effective :p
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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It's not that she's easier so much as it is that it's...more inconvenient to land tippers as Marth when there's less ways to microspace. I think Sakurai's going to have to stop trying to purge everything the previous Smashes' metas comprised of to level the playing field between the two.
It seems like Marth and Lucina will always have problems when it comes to viability. If Marth's tipper mechanic is good, then why use Lucina who doesn't have those higher strengths*? If it's not so good, then why play Marth and be better sometimes when you can play Lucina and be good all the time.

*IIRC Lucina had a few matchups where she was better because she didn't struggle as much with characters that keep getting in your face.

I'm not sure how I'd rework them if at all, at this point I don't think I would, but I do feel like they went about their presentation all the wrong way. As if trying to save face, like look at how many weapons this Fire Emblem character has (are you guys happy now) instead of committing to more of a central idea. It's always come off a little sloppy and unfocused to me, although they make up for it because they're at least pretty fun to play. A lot of my friends seem to feel the same, so at least at the end of the day they were able to assimilate and gain some goodwill by simply feeling good to control.
The two immediate options that I can think of are a more normal swordfighter with projectiles and some pretty darn decent boxing tools, perhaps at the cost of slower sword normals that force you to be very deliberate with your mid range spacing, or a trap character inspired by the Adjunct system that summons the three house lords to control space.

Unfortunately, both options would require changing literally everything about them, and I don't think that's wise.
 

Guynamednelson

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It seems like Marth and Lucina will always have problems when it comes to viability. If Marth's tipper mechanic is good, then why use Lucina who doesn't have those higher strengths*? If it's not so good, then why play Marth and be better sometimes when you can play Lucina and be good all the time.
Roy and Chrom prove it's possible to avoid. Chrom is less training-wheels Roy and more his own thing, although it helps that he has more changes than Lucina, some of which help like him sticking his sword out further, and some of which hurt like Soaring Slash.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Roy and Chrom prove it's possible to avoid. Chrom is less training-wheels Roy and more his own thing, although it helps that he has more changes than Lucina, some of which help like him sticking his sword out further, and some of which hurt like Soaring Slash.
Yeah, it's easy to make both Roy and Chrom good when they have the privilege of every move being a kill move at percents that aren't really that high, meaning kill confirms are basically up to imagination.

Not even most DLCs can say that about their kit.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I'm genuinely curious, between Corrin and Byleth, who do you think is more likely?
Byleth is significantly more likely to stay than Corrin.

It's just that I agree with the general sentiment around Corrin (they're done), but I disagree with the general sentiment about Byleth (they're staying).
 

KingofPhantoms

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Isn't Lucina considered one of the best sword fighters in Ultimate?

The lack of a projectile is an issue for every Fire Emblem character prior to Robin (particularly those who's movesets were built off of Marth's) but the general consensus seems to be is that despite the tippers, Lucina is considerably better than Marth.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Isn't Lucina considered one of the best sword fighters in Ultimate?

The lack of a projectile is an issue for every Fire Emblem character prior to Robin (particularly those who's movesets were built off of Marth's) but the general consensus seems to be is that despite the tippers, Lucina is considerably better than Marth.
Lucina is considered better than Marth because her hitboxes allow players to get more consistent results, whereas Marth can K.O. earlier, but if he isn't on his A game you just kinda lose.

EDIT: I've seen one guy refute this by looking at tournament data, but I don't remember how exactly nor the video in question.
 
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KneeOfJustice99

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Here's a question for the thread: Are there any characters you feel are generally slept on as far as base game newcomers go?

I'd say Bomberman, Alucard, X, and (a unique) Octoling personally.
I've consistently stood by this - a Taito character of some kind, and a Sunsoft character of some kind, feel massively slept-on.

For context; Taito's one of the biggest pieces of gaming history, being responsible for games like Space Invaders, but there's also titles like Bubble Bobble that'd lend really well to a playable character with mascot factor (specifically, Bub/Bob.) Conveniently, they're also owned by Square Enix, who're likely to remain involved in future games given their involvement within Smash already - but tend to get their own branding on things, so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for (at minimum) things like Spirits featuring classic Taito games like Arkanoid, Qix, Darius - and so on and so forth.

On the other hand, Sunsoft's one of the companies who originally published third-party games on the NES - and while not as outright well-known as other companies in this position like Capcom or Namco, they're in a good position of maintaining legacy franchises like Hebereke and Blaster Master with decent sales, while also having a seemingly good relationship with Nintendo (after all, Sunsoft's one of the most prolific third-parties to appear on the NSO service.) Additionally, similar to Taito, Sunsoft would have a wealth of additional content that'd fit well in the Smash series - most prominently, music.

I've often suggested Bub (from Bubble Bobble) and Jason (from Blaster Master) in these roles. Ostensibly, both share some qualities - namely, they're both arguably "retro reps" but do have some modern qualities, namely the Puzzle Bobble and Blaster Master Zero series in more recent memory. They're also both oozing with moveset potential, if you were to be creative with them.

Now, I'll admit - I get why they're slept on. Namely, Koei-Tecmo - Ryu Hayabusa of the Ninja Gaiden series is one of the hot-button topics at the moment, and I think he has a lot going for him (not least that Koei-Tecmo technically already have some involvement in Smash, albeit minor) - and both Bub and Jason arguably fill similar roles as combination "retro/modern" reps, or something along those lines.

Regardless, I wouldn't write off Taito or Sunsoft. Both seem at least decently plausible for some kind of content in the next title, even if not in a playable role.
 

SharkLord

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In my opinion, Byleth banked a bit too hard on this as some unique gimmick when the only reason it stands out is juxtaposed against other Fire Emblem characters. I kind of roll my eyes at the prospect that "attack in x direction and it's a different weapon" is some compelling gameplay hook and not par for the course. Kind of a byproduct of how every character had some nutty thing going on and Byleth didn't, so they had to at least pretend they were treading new waters. I'm not saying they needed to be crazy unique but the presentation fell flat for me.

And yeah, funny enough their sword had always been the most interesting part to me too. Even prior to seeing them in action, I was looking into the character and was compelled by it. Their Up B antics are absolutely the most fun thing they have going on in my book, I've been styled on plenty by that attack and I can never be mad at it.

I'm not sure how I'd rework them if at all, at this point I don't think I would, but I do feel like they went about their presentation all the wrong way. As if trying to save face, like look at how many weapons this Fire Emblem character has (are you guys happy now) instead of committing to more of a central idea. It's always come off a little sloppy and unfocused to me, although they make up for it because they're at least pretty fun to play. A lot of my friends seem to feel the same, so at least at the end of the day they were able to assimilate and gain some goodwill by simply feeling good to control.

Bleh, I always feel tacky criticizing Byleth. I feel like I have legitimate, reasonable points to make but it'll always be muddled by the greater backlash behind the character simply existing. So just as a disclaimer, I'm not trying to be nasty about that part.
Yeah, Byleth's problem is that they were set up to be divisive from the outset, and instead of leaning into their strengths they awkwardly tried to compromise. If you liked Byleth's moveset potential, they don't have much whipswording, and they don't play into their magic or the Divine Pulse. If you'd prefer one of the house leaders, be it liking them as a character or wanting their weapon to have a whole moveset to shine, tough luck. And if you buy into the stigma of FE characters being dominated by blue-haired anime-style sword lords, well...

End result, everyone's left with something to gripe about. At least it's fun to land the chunky heavy attacks
 
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Super Devon

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As someone who used to be a true believer in more Ultimate content, Sakurai reiterated that the Sora Amiibo update was the final update for Ultimate and that was recent enough to conclude Sakurai hasn't changed his mind.

Alternatively, Sakurai could have been lying, but that's not really in his character. He's usually pretty transparent as far as game devs go.
I’m pretty sure this isn’t the first time he said this, as if I recall correctly, I think he said something like this after Sora was released for Smash Ultimate, and we know for a fact that the team has disbanded after Sora’s release.
 

pitchfulprocessing

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All jokes aside I do think there's a lot of aspects of gaming history you could make a case for in Smash that are often overlooked. It'd be easy to say "lol Spacewar/Tennis for Two was the first video game include that" or other games of similar pedigree like Maze War and pedit5, but like, what about Ultima? That's a massively influential RPG series which is to Dragon Quest what Dragon Quest is to all other JRPGs, the Avatar or Lord British could make great characters if you negotiate with EA. What about text adventures? Colossal Cave Adventure was the first major one, and Zork is genre-defining, the Dungeon Master who the player character becomes in the third game could be interesting. Rogue literally has a major genre named after it and is a pioneer of dungeon crawling, while Wizardry and Might & Magic are in the same boat as Ultima in terms of defining pretty much every single RPG videogame in existence. In terms of computer games, Miner Willy is undeniably one of the most influential and set a template for platformers, Jet Set Willy is a fairly well remembered game, and Pitfall Harry could be considered his American counterpart. The Intellivision had Q-Bert, who's still an iconic character, and obviously Atari had games like Space Invaders and Pong (or I suppose Tennis for the Magnavox Odyssey) who might as well be mascots for medium. If you want to get a bit more out there, what about Minesweeper? The Yeti from SkiFree? MS Flight Simulator? How about Bejeweled lol? Even going into stuff people might be more familiar with, games like Myst, Age of Empires, Alone in the Dark, Civilisation, The Sims (technically represented in Smash i guess), Unreal Tournament, Monkey Island are all, I'd argue, medium-defining series you don't see get brought up much in these circles when it comes to this topic.

I don't think any of these are even remotely likely to get into Smash, probably evident by how I didn't list actual characters for some lol, and I don't think that's what Sakurai is going for, I doubt he's seriously aiming to make Smash some all-encompassing representation of the medium. It's a celebration of gaming in the sense that it's amazing to have all these companies and IPs from so many places come together, and from his perspective as a creative for him and his team to speak with the original creators for so many series. I guess I'm mostly just saying I think sometimes gaming history, and especially classic gaming history, is assumed to revolve more around Nintendo and its systems than it actually does lol.

We should totally get a Minesweeper stage if Microsoft is on board though.
 

Guynamednelson

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I’m pretty sure this isn’t the first time he said this, as if I recall correctly, I think he said something like this after Sora was released for Smash Ultimate, and we know for a fact that the team has disbanded after Sora’s release.
At the same time, it's not like the DLC has to be made by the same people-the main reason anyone's considering more SSBU DLC to be remotely possible (besides eternally starving for more Smash hype), the Booster Course Pass, was made by different people than vanilla MK8. I've documented it before ITT:
...and if "Studio S" is supposed to be "Studio Smash", that means, well, we have a team that could support SSBU further if not making a new game outright. Hell, Scott the Woz has argued that the BCP could be training a new Mario Kart team before they work on a proper MK9, who says they can't do something similar for Studio S before they work on Smash 6?
 

Super Devon

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At the same time, it's not like the DLC has to be made by the same people-the main reason anyone's considering more SSBU DLC to be remotely possible (besides eternally starving for more Smash hype), the Booster Course Pass, was made by different people than vanilla MK8. I've documented it before ITT:
...and if "Studio S" is supposed to be "Studio Smash", that means, well, we have a team that could support SSBU further if not making a new game outright. Hell, Scott the Woz has argued that the BCP could be training a new Mario Kart team before they work on a proper MK9, who says they can't do something similar for Studio S before they work on Smash 6?
Right, and that leads me to ask this?
Why would you announce the finale of Smash Ultimate and disband the development team only to add more content in the form of spirits around 2 years later after announcing said game development is ending?

It just doesn’t add up at all, especially if you consider the recent forming a new studio at Bandai Namco specifically for Nintendo projects, as well as Sakurai announcing the incoming end of his YouTube channel around the same time as the new spirits were being added.
 

pitchfulprocessing

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Harada tweeted about this at the time of Sora's presentation, but a lot of the people who work on Smash are also part of TEKKEN Project, and went to work on Tekken 8 after Smash (for reference, Tekken 7's final DLC character came out in March 2021). I don't think we know the specifics of how big the Smash DLC skeleton team was as opposed to the main game, but it makes sense Studio S would be formalised as a proper internal Bamco team around the time Tekken 8 was wrapping up development, since now that game would have its own skeleton team within Bamco with some flexbility.
 

Golden Icarus

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I really do love Byleth. I play them all the time.

But I really do think they have the most overrated chances of coming back.
I agree with the sentiment that Byleth is among the more likely FE characters to stay, but yeah I can very easily picture them getting the axe. Three Houses is a huge deal and ought to be represented, but when you're competing with other important characters like Marth and Robin, crazy popular characters like Chrom and Ike and easy clones like Roy and Lucina...I mean it's pretty reasonable to say "hey maybe let's drop the character that got 40% dislikes at their reveal."

Also I think Edelgard and/or Dimitri both have a pretty underrated shot. Those were the two most popular characters in Three Houses and both boast unique weapons. If the next roster chooses to even slightly overhaul the FE lineup, then I can very easily picture either of them being added in Byleth's stead (or in addition to Byleth).

Really I don't think anyone should be too confident in any of the FE characters returning aside from Marth. Cutting it down to Marth / Ike / Robin / Byleth + a newcomer and maybe another veteran or two is the obvious answer, but there's also so many directions you can go with the amount of important and popular characters in the franchise and if the next game chooses to reboot the roster in some way, then FE is the one series I can see justifying a bunch of cuts in addition to a bunch of newcomers. It's not what I'd expect, but I think it is a real possibility.
 

Will

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Right, and that leads me to ask this?
Why would you announce the finale of Smash Ultimate and disband the development team only to add more content in the form of spirits around 2 years later after announcing said game development is ending?

It just doesn’t add up at all, especially if you consider the recent forming a new studio at Bandai Namco specifically for Nintendo projects, as well as Sakurai announcing the incoming end of his YouTube channel around the same time as the new spirits were being added.
You need the whole dev team to add a png and CPU battles?
 

Super Devon

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You need the whole dev team to add a png and CPU battles?
We never know, and even then that doesn’t mean it’s a one man task either, I’d imagine they would need a few testers or something, game development is never as simple as we think.

and even if it were true that the new spirits were a one man job, it wouldn’t really explain the other two things I pointed out:

especially if you consider the recent forming a new studio at Bandai Namco specifically for Nintendo projects, as well as Sakurai announcing the incoming end of his YouTube channel around the same time as the new spirits were being added.
 
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pitchfulprocessing

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I feel like the bigger point is just that some of the spirits were third parties, and one was an overseas third party at that, so you would have needed to go through legal and get those communications set up. The spirits themselves obviously wouldn't require even the entire DLC skeleton team, I imagine it's just something a few people on Studio S did after the team was formalised and whatever's next for Smash was about to enter preproduction, and I imagine Sakurai probably just approved and didn't have much involvement directly.
 
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Guynamednelson

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You need the whole dev team to add a png and CPU battles?
No, but given that one spirit event involved third-party companies, including one which wasn't repped in Smash prior to the event, that isn't going to be free. And I doubt it's profitable either since no one has to pay to fight the spirits, they'd have to get their income elsewhere.
 

Gorgonzales

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Let's say your favorite series already reppy in smash got ALL the characters you'd want in as playable fighters, what would it look like?
Me;.
Xenoblade:
Shulk
Fiora
Melia
Elma
Rex with Pyra and Mythra
Pyra/Mythra solo
Malos
Nia stance change between driver and blade.
Tora and Poppi
Lora and Jin
Noah
Mio
Ethel
Matthew
Pikmin:

1. Olimar (with moveset overhaul & no Alph)
2. Louie (unique character)
3. Oatchi (unique character)
4. Moss (semi-clone of Oatchi or unique character, I don't really care)
5. Bulborb (unique character)

It's like dealing with a genie. You have to be really specific when you're describing your wishes.
 

Ivander

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How the hell was Mario Land not on NSO already?


Japan also got The Frog for Whom the Bell Tolls.
Speaking of new additions, some new additions to the NSO Console libraries soon would be nice.
I think this is the 4th or somewhat time where I've said, "Some new additions to the NSO would be nice." and a NSO update happens shortly after.

But yeah, Super Mario Land was not on NSO before, only Super Mario Land 2. We also don't have Donkey Kong 94, Wario Land 1 and 2 yet. As well as Game & Watch Gallery 1 and 2.

Edit; Oh yeah, we don't have Mole Mania or the GB Kid Icarus game on the NSO yet as well.
 
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EarlTamm

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I feel like Zagreus could be like a Joker-style surprise pick, Hades is one of those games that blew up pretty much everywhere and has massive appeal and popularity, it sold 300K units in just its launch weekend coming out of early access and Hades 2 is currently peaked at over 100K concurrent players on Steam in just early access.


Has obvious setbacks like Supergiant being Western, but if Smash was to have an indie character, Zagreus would certainly be a fitting choice.
It just occurred to me how fun a Palutena's Guidance with a Hades protag would be. There would be such a high likelihood of a Hades character pulling a Chrom/Alucard and showing up in the conversation, as well as all of the potential confusion over their differing takes on Greek myth.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Sunsoft made Journey to Silius, right? It's a decent Megaman clone with a kickass soundtrack on the NES NSO.
I kinda feel like they're too small time to get anything past some spirits in Smash though...

Taito is a different matter. Bub is iconic, everyone has played Puzzle Bobble at some point and Bubble Bobble is a classic.
Still hard to see him get in Smash, he's the kind of character that everybody knows but doesn't necessarily have a particularly big dedicated fandom, which I think has always been an important factor when selecting 3rd party characters.
Speaking of which, Bomberman remains the most likely choice among that kind of characters imo. He has the same advantages as Bub (big arcade presence, easily recognizable) but he has also had a way bigger presence on Nintendo consoles, some adventure games on N64 and GC, a crossover with Wario, some notable new games, probably did decently on the Ballot...
 

Gengar84

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Speaking of figures, does anyone else here still collect them? I’ve been on a bit of a kick these last few years since I really started getting back into TMNT. I’ve actually mostly ran out of space to display them but I’ll figure something out.

Besides Amiibo, does anyone here have any figures of playable characters in Smash? I’ve got Yoshi, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, Lucario, Ryu, Ken, Mega Man, Cloud, Sephiroth, and Hero (DQVIII).
 
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fogbadge

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Speaking of figures, does anyone else here still collect them? I’ve been on a bit of a kick these last few years since I really started getting back into TMNT. I’ve actually mostly ran out of space to display them but I’ll figure something out.

Besides Amiibo, does anyone here have any figures of playable characters in Smash? I’ve got Yoshi, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, Lucario, Ryu, Ken, Mega Man, Cloud, Sephiroth, and Hero (DQVIII).
most of mine are amiibo. and a lot of lego mini figs.
 

Gengar84

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most of mine are amiibo. and a lot of lego mini figs.
I’ve got an Amiibo for about half of the roster. I do wish they would have made a new one for Ganondorf’s Ultimate design.

I’ll have to take some pictures some time of my collection so I can show them off. I’ve got to dust a few of the shelves off first though lol.
 
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pitchfulprocessing

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 13, 2024
Messages
152
It just occurred to me how fun a Palutena's Guidance with a Hades protag would be. There would be such a high likelihood of a Hades character pulling a Chrom/Alucard and showing up in the conversation, as well as all of the potential confusion over their differing takes on Greek myth.
Number one reason Zagreus should be a base game character lol. Though at the very least his trailer would definitely feature the Kid Icarus cast either way, Hades definitely really fits perfectly into Smash.
 
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