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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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MightyArcaninez

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Aug 14, 2018
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I would love it if Celica were playable, personally.

I don't think Alfonse would get in though, personally. Chrom took the niche I saw him having as an echo (balanced Roy) and Folkvangr's abilities don't really offer anything for a non-echo set. I do like him as a character though, mainly since he's pretty much the only Heroes OC to feel like an actual character to me. :p
Yeah I know what you mean. It's just a thought and fear I had as a reaction of FE Heroes music in Smash. Really just ramblings of a cornered FE fan.
 

LetterO

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
1,747
I would love it if Celica were playable, personally.

I don't think Alfonse would get in though, personally. Chrom took the niche I saw him having as an echo (balanced Roy) and Folkvangr's abilities don't really offer anything for a non-echo set. I do like him as a character though, mainly since he's pretty much the only Heroes OC to feel like an actual character to me. :p
What about Alfonzo?

Alfonzo: Leave it to me!
 

Cap'n Jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,345
No update on the website...wonder if they’re trying to avoid another leak before a big reveal tomorrow?
 

SmasherMaster

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Ultimate Predictions Roster.png


Posting my current roster predictions. Including Echoes, there are 84 characters, but excluding them has 72. I tried to organize it slightly by series, but my main goal was the idea that only the original 8 is the starting roster and the roster expands as you unlock everybody else, and I couldn't fit the random button in.

Unique Newcomers
Geno
Decidueye
Bandana Dee
Isaac

Echoes
Black Shadow
Impa
Dixie Kong
Shadow the Hedgehog
Isabelle
Medusa
Octolings
 

QrowinSP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
267
Everyone's sort of locked into 4 more newcomers.

**** it, I think there's gonna be 5 and that Sakurai has been underselling how many there are.

Skull Kid for a new Zelda villain. Geno/Isaac/Bandana Dee for more fan service. Then either Tapu Koko or Gardevoir for a pokemon.
 

Royaru

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
33
Um... Since Melee, every game has three new franchise, two of them are "normal" and the other one is obscure. Since brawl, every game has two new third party franchise in the base roster.
Melee : Ice Climber, Fire emblem and Game&Watch
Brawl : Wario, Kid Icarus and ROB, for the thirds party were Sonic and MGS
Smash4 : Punch-Out!!, Xenoblade and Duck Hunt, for the thirds partys were Pacman and Megaman

In Ultimate, we have one new franchise for first and third party... So at least, there will be two new franchise for first and one for thirds. In the other hand, in brawl and 4 there were at least one newcomer for the one franchise that were introduce in the previous game, in Brawl we had Ike and in Smash4 we had Palutena...

So... My bets for the final roster are : Isaac (GS), Elma (Xenoblade), Lip (Panel de Pon) and Lloyd Irving (To), at least this four, but Skull Kid is too Likely.
 

AngrySun88

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
988
Every Smash game has that WTF character that nobody expected to be added. Most people had no idea who Ness was in 64, Mr. Game and Watch came out of nowhere in Melee, I don't think anyone expected Snake in Brawl, and Wii Fit Trainer was someone that I don't think anyone expected for Smash 4.

The thing is, Sakurai is difficult to predict. While I do think he's leaning towards fanservice this time, I still think there will be a WTF character that nobody sees coming.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
It's a reference to the beginning of Mother 3, when a similar dragon kills Lucas' mother.
If that’s the intended reference, they did a poor job at it. Rathalos looks nothing like a Mecha-Drago. Meta Ridley would have been a better pick. Leads me to believe it’s not a reference to that.
 

RileyXY1

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
7,160
Here's some characters I can see joining Smash. I don't think that all of these characters are getting in, I just see these characters as likely additions to the roster.

Promoted ATs:
Shadow
Isabelle
Skull Kid
Saki Amamiya
Kat & Ana

Easy Echoes:
Ninten (of Ness)
Princess Hilda (of Zelda)
Black Knight (of Ike)
Celica (of Robin)
Ken Masters (of Ryu)
Zack Fair (of Cloud)
Isa (of Saki)
Felix (of Isaac)

Fan Service Characters:
Geno
Isaac
Bandanna Dee
Banjo & Kazooie

New Third Party Reps:
Tails
Lloyd Irving

New First Party Reps:
Elma
Gen 7 Pokemon
 

ThoughtfulWanderer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2018
Messages
1,054
If that’s the intended reference, they did a poor job at it. Rathalos looks nothing like a Mecha-Drago. Meta Ridley would have been a better pick. Leads me to believe it’s not a reference to that.
It could be a nod to the general plot of Mother 3, since there's a dragon sleeping under Lucas' home island that
has the power to reshape or destroy the world, including an ending sequence where there's a lot of volcanic eruptions, meteors, cracks in the surface, and a lot of fire in general.
 

JMac52

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
29
Here's some characters I can see joining Smash. I don't think that all of these characters are getting in, I just see these characters as likely additions to the roster.

Promoted ATs:
Shadow
Isabelle
Skull Kid
Saki Amamiya
Kat & Ana

Easy Echoes:
Ninten (of Ness)
Princess Hilda (of Zelda)
Black Knight (of Ike)
Celica (of Robin)
Ken Masters (of Ryu)
Zack Fair (of Cloud)
Isa (of Saki)
Felix (of Isaac)

Fan Service Characters:
Geno
Isaac
Bandanna Dee
Banjo & Kazooie

New Third Party Reps:
Tails
Lloyd Irving

New First Party Reps:
Elma
Gen 7 Pokemon
I think something similar to this as well. I think it’s going to come down to somewhere along these lines, but I’ve been wrong before.

Unique (Choose 5 or so from this list)

Skull Kid
Bandana Dee
Isaac
Geno
Elma
A New Pokemon (likely gen 7, but maybe just a popular older request like Gardevoir or Gengar)
Retro Character (Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Excitebiker, Lip)
Geno
Saki
Second Wario Ware character (Kat and Ana, Mona, or Jimmy)
Chibi Robo
Lloyd Irving
Heihachi
Tails
Travis Touchdown
Shantae

Echoes (Choose 4 or 5 here as well)

Shadow (I think more likely than unique Tails) [Sonic]
Black Shadow or Pico [Captain Falcon]
Isabelle [Villager]
Dixie Kong (with DK’s Up B) [Diddy Kong]
Black Knight [Ike]
Ken [Ryu]
Zack Fair [Cloud]
Funky Kong [DK]
Impa [Sheik]
Louie [Olimar]

DLC

Banjo and Kazooie (I just don’t see them getting in until DLC based on what’s been said)
Rex and Pyra
Spring Man (+Ribbon Girl)
Edelgard
 

Chumble Spuzz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
19
This is something I'm pretty sure will never happen, but...
What do you think about Looker as a playable character? I've always thought it would be cool to have a Pokémon rep that's not actually a Pokémon. He could use different items in his moveset-- I'm thinking Escape Rope as a tether grab, Quick Claw as a dash attack, stuff like that. I'd love to hear what others have to say about this idea!
 

Iko MattOrr

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Bandana Dee is a bit more relevant than Magolor (being basically upgraded to regular cast member during the modern era alongside the timeless regular cast of the main trio for the Kirby series) and more importantly has more fans than any other Kirby character at the moment. That last bit especially is important in lieu of the Ridley and K.Rool confirmations. Due to that, I feel Bandana Dee is a very very strong contender over many Kirby characters, especially since a lot of the others have been important for one game before never making an appearance again (except in Star Allies due to the "everyone is here" feel of that game).

Also, for the record, I am not a supporter of Bandana Dee. But of all the Kirby characters in the series, he's the one with the highest chance of being playable for Smash, taking both relevance and fan support into account, and if Kirby only get's one rep (which I think is pretty likely), Bandana Dee will please the highest amount of Kirby fans.
I'm making a post that detracts a popular character, I'm sorry, I'll try to make it as much objective as possible and with documentation and explanation, so it's not an hate post (it's not my intention).

Are you sure about that? Does he?
I mean, I agree about it being popular and having a lot of fans, but is he really on the same level as the regular cast?
Ok, in Kirby Star Allies (Guest Star) he has the same intro picture as Metaknight and King Dedede, ok... but that's a weak point IMO, he's there to represent all the waddle dees (according to the description), and he has been in many games, he doesn't have a specific game to represent so they went for the neutral screen (the other characters have a screen that emulates the boxart of the games they are from).

But what about his presence in the other games? Most games he is in are spin-offs, and most of the times he gets a side role. Team Kirby Clash Deluxe is the only game where he gets a slighty bigger role as he's along with Magolor the only NPC you can talk to. But in the 3DS games he's just there to throw stuff at you and does not appear in the story, in Superstar Ultra he is a minor character of a side mode; in the anniversary collection he just appears and does nothing.

Now let's talk about those games where he apparently had a major role:

Kirby's Return to Dreamland: He's one of the main four characters, though he barely interacts with the other characters, just as anyone else. Metaknight, King Dedede and Waddle Dee are there to allow multiplayer, story wise they just do the same actions as Kirby and stare; they aren't really involved in the story. I think Waddle Dee (so it was called) was there more to replace a proper helper system than to be its own character.

Kirby Battle Royale: He appears in the story mode, he's a main character in that mode, though.......... when you play multiplayer (the main mode of the game, as it's mainly a multiplayer party game) you are not allowed to play as him, you can only play as Kirby, Metaknight, King Dedede and a Waddle Dee without the bandanna.

Now about Rainbow Curse: this speaks itself. Bandana Dee is not even considered a character, it's mentioned as an helper of Kirby but he's clearly intended to be a minor character.

Lastly, HAL almost always prefers to use regular waddle dees instead of Bandana Dee, in promotional material and merchandise. They made an amiibo of Waddle Dee, that's just a regular Waddle Dee.

So I wouldn't call him part of the main cast. Surely he appeared a lot of times, but he has always been a secondary character, most of the times a minor one too. Magolor on the other hand, appeared less, but has way more involvement with the lore of the series, and his action had some impact too.
While Magolor is not my biggest priority as a Kirby newcomer, I think Magolor is a lot more relevant than Bandana Dee.

It seems that HAL considers the main group of characters to be Kirby, King Dedede, Metaknight, and Waddle Dees. Waddle Dees as a species, not as a specific character. But when you think about it, does a regular Waddle Dee really deserve to be in Smash? I don't know, really. For sure I would prefer a regular Waddle Dee, with a bandanna as one of the many costumes (along with the sailor hat and other stuff), than Bandana Dee as a specific character in the game ond only palette swaps as costumes (also if you take Waddle Dee as a species, you have way more freedom to build a moveset, taking inspiration from a lot more source material than just the Spear Ability and to an extent Parasol).

I agree with you about it pleasing the highest amount of fans, that's a good point, but I wouldn't bring relevance into this, it's more about granting the fans' requests; it all depends on if Sakurai thinks that a Waddle Dee deserves a spot in the roster or not (if he thinks it does, then expect him as a newcomer, but expect him to be Waddle Dee, not Bandana Dee; but if Toad is of any indication, then I wouldn't bring my hopes too much up).

Anyway, there is a rumor about the voice actress of Kirby, apparenly she has replied to a Bandana Dee fan with a vague comment that seems to hint that Bandana Dee in Smash is a possibility, so yeah, it's a possibility, but I still think it's only due to fans' request, not because of relevance. And nothing is confirmed anyway, it's just a vague rumor.
If all those fans who say "I like that Kirby character but Bandana Dee must be in first" would have supported their actual favorite character instead, it would have had an actual chance instead, this way IMO is just a wasted opportunity for all the Kirby fans.
 
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GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
I'm making a post that detracts a popular character, I'm sorry, I'll try to make it as much objective as possible and with documentation and explanation, so it's not an hate post (it's not my intention).

Are you sure about that? Does he?
I mean, I agree about it being popular and having a lot of fans, but is he really on the same level as the regular cast?
Ok, in Kirby Star Allies (Guest Star) he has the same intro picture as Metaknight and King Dedede, ok... but that's a weak point IMO, he's there to represent all the waddle dees (according to the description), and he has been in many games, he doesn't have a specific game to represent so they went for the neutral screen (the other characters have a screen that emulates the boxart of the games they are from).

But what about his presence in the other games? Most games he is in are spin-offs, and most of the times he gets a side role. Team Kirby Clash Deluxe is the only game where he gets a slighty bigger role as he's along with Magolor the only NPC you can talk to. But in the 3DS games he's just there to throw stuff at you and does not appear in the story, in Superstar Ultra he is a minor character of a side mode; in the anniversary collection he just appears and does nothing.

Now let's talk about those games where he apparently had a major role:

Kirby's Return to Dreamland: He's one of the main four characters, though he barely interacts with the other characters, just as anyone else. Metaknight, King Dedede and Waddle Dee are there to allow multiplayer, story wise they just do the same actions as Kirby and stare; they aren't really involved in the story. I think Waddle Dee (so it was called) was there more to replace a proper helper system than to be its own character.

Kirby Battle Royale: He appears in the story mode, he's a main character in that mode, though.......... when you play multiplayer (the main mode of the game, as it's mainly a multiplayer party game) you are not allowed to play as him, you can only play as Kirby, Metaknight, King Dedede and a Waddle Dee without the bandanna.

Now about Rainbow Curse: this speaks itself. Bandana Dee is not even considered a character, it's mentioned as an helper of Kirby but he's clearly intended to be a minor character.

Lastly, HAL almost always prefers to use regular waddle dees instead of Bandana Dee, in promotional material and merchandise. They made an amiibo of Waddle Dee, that's just a regular Waddle Dee.

So I wouldn't call him part of the main cast. Surely he appeared a lot of times, but he has always been a secondary character, most of the times a minor one too. Magolor on the other hand, appeared less, but has way more involvement with the lore of the series, and his action had some impact too.
While Magolor is not my biggest priority as a Kirby newcomer, I think Magolor is a lot more relevant than Bandana Dee.

It seems that HAL considers the main group of characters to be Kirby, King Dedede, Metaknight, and Waddle Dees. Waddle Dees as a species, not as a specific character. But when you think about it, does a regular Waddle Dee really deserve to be in Smash? I don't know, really. For sure I would prefer a regular Waddle Dee, with a bandanna as one of the many costumes (along with the sailor hat and other stuff), than Bandana Dee as a specific character in the game ond only palette swaps as costumes (also if you take Waddle Dee as a species, you have way more freedom to build a moveset, taking inspiration from a lot more source material than just the Spear Ability and to an extent Parasol).

I agree with you about it pleasing the highest amount of fans, that's a good point, but I wouldn't bring relevance into this, it's more about granting the fans' requests; it all depends on if Sakurai thinks that a Waddle Dee deserves a spot in the roster or not (if he thinks it does, then expect him as a newcomer, but expect him to be Waddle Dee, not Bandana Dee; but if Toad is of any indication, then I wouldn't bring my hopes too much up).

Anyway, there is a rumor about the voice actress of Kirby, apparenly she has replied to a Bandana Dee fan with a vague comment that seems to hint that Bandana Dee in Smash is a possibility, so yeah, it's a possibility, but I still think it's only due to fans' request, not because of relevance. And nothing is confirmed anyway, it's just a vague rumor.
If all those fans who say "I like that Kirby character but Bandana Dee must be in first" would have supported their actual favorite character instead, it would have had an actual chance instead, this way IMO is just a wasted opportunity for all the Kirby fans.
The idea that Bandanna Dee is not ‘supposed to be a character, but just to represent Waddle Dees’ is so preposterous I’m curious as to how you managed to entertain it. It certainly did not come from any interview, that’s for sure. If you really took that flavor text from Star Allies at face value, then rest assured, Bandanna Dee isn’t a real person and they don’t actually give out perfect attendance awards.

Bandanna Dee, or Bandanna Waddle Dee, has been referred to as such in game and in official materials many times since his first playable appearance in Return to Dream Land. If he has had the same importance in game as Meta Knight and Dedede in all the four player games, then doesn’t it stand to reason he should be treated the same?

Then there are all the factual inaccuracies (you do know he was playable in Rainbow Curse, right?) and contradictions (“I think Magolor is a lot more relevant than Bandana Dee (...)I agree with you about it pleasing the highest amount of fans, that's a good point, but I wouldn't bring relevance into this”) in your arguments.

Finally, Bandanna Dee is one of the most requested characters in the Smash fandom, currently the highest requested in Japan, so it’s absurd to assume he wouldn’t get in over a generic Waddle Dee.

There is a lot more to dissect, but I’d rather you just go to his tread and inform yourself. That’s the clever thing to do before coming out guns blazing.
 
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Iko MattOrr

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The idea that Bandanna Dee is not ‘supposed to be a character, but just to represent Waddle Dees’ is so preposterous I’m curious as to how you managed to entertain it. It certainly did not come from any interview, that’s for sure. If you really took that flavor text from Star Allies at face value, then rest assured, Bandanna Dee isn’t a real person and they don’t actually give out perfect attendance awards.
That text refers to the perfect attendance of waddle dees in general, as they appear in every Kirby game up to date, in some form or another.

Bandanna Dee, or Bandanna Waddle Dee, has been referred to as such in game and in official materials many times since his first playable appearance in Return to Dream Land. If he has had the same importance in game as Meta Knight and Dedede in all the four player games, then doesn’t it stand to reason he should be treated the same?
I already explained it in my previous post, no need to repeat myself.

EDIT: and no, in Return to Dreamland he was called just Waddle Dee, and as far as I know he has never been called "Bandana Dee" outside of the fandom.


Then there are all the factual inaccuracies (you do know he was playable in Rainbow Curse, right?) and contradictions (“I think Magolor is a lot more relevant than Bandana Dee (...)I agree with you about it pleasing the highest amount of fans, that's a good point, but I wouldn't bring relevance into this”) in your arguments.
Yes I know that he was playable, but it doesn't really matter, he's not listed as a character in that page, this means that in the hierarchy of those character, he's a step below. It's like saying that the helpers in Star Allies are as important as the Dream Friends because they are playable too.
Where's the contraddiction? I'm saying that the majority of the Kirby fandom asked for him, so said majority would be pleased, but relevance has nothing to do with this (by relevance I mean relevance in the series, not in the fandom).

EDIT: I see what you did here, it took me a while to realize. Taking the sentences out of context so they look stupid. The two sentences aren't directly related, and the post is refered to the other post that I quoted above; to be more precise, I was replying to this sentence: "taking both relevance and fan support into account"; I said, I agree about fan support, but not about relevance, because I think he's not that relevant and Magolor is definitely more relevant than him. Again, I don't see any contraddiction.

Finally, Bandanna Dee is one of the most requested characters in the Smash fandom, currently the highest requested in Japan, so it’s absurd to assume he wouldn’t get in over a generic Waddle Dee.

There is a lot more to dissect, but I’d rather you just go to his tread and inform yourself. That’s the clever thing to do before coming out guns blazing.
I explained, there is more than one reason that may make Sakurai exclude him regardelss of his popularity. It all depends on Sakurai and what he thinks about the character.

I won't enter that thread anytime soon, first because I know the Kirby series well enough and I don't need to, and second because I had a bad experience during the Smash 4 days and I prefer to stay away from it.
 
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GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
That text refers to the perfect attendance of waddle dees in general, as they appear in every Kirby game up to date, in some form or another.



I already explained it in my previous post, no need to repeat myself.

EDIT: and no, in Return to Dreamland he was called just Waddle Dee, and as far as I know he has never been called "Bandana Dee" outside of the fandom.




Yes I know that he was playable, but it doesn't really matter, he's not listed as a character in that page, this means that in the hierarchy of those character, he's a step below. It's like saying that the helpers in Star Allies are as important as the Dream Friends because they are playable too.
Where's the contraddiction? I'm saying that the majority of the Kirby fandom asked for him, so said majority would be pleased, but relevance has nothing to do with this (by relevance I mean relevance in the series, not in the fandom).

EDIT: I see what you did here, it took me a while to realize. Taking the sentences out of context so they look stupid. The two sentences aren't directly related, and the post is refered to the other post that I quoted above; to be more precise, I was replying to this sentence: "taking both relevance and fan support into account"; I said, I agree about fan support, but not about relevance, because I think he's not that relevant and Magolor is definitely more relevant than him. Again, I don't see any contraddiction.



I explained, there is more than one reason that may make Sakurai exclude him regardelss of his popularity. It all depends on Sakurai and what he thinks about the character.

I won't enter that thread anytime soon, first because I know the Kirby series well enough and I don't need to, and second because I had a bad experience during the Smash 4 days and I prefer to stay away from it.
I’m sorry that you had a bad experience with the fandom, and I understand how that might sour you on the character. Everyone has bias, there’s nothing wrong with admitting it.
 

Iko MattOrr

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I’m sorry that you had a bad experience with the fandom, and I understand how that might sour you on the character. Everyone has bias, there’s nothing wrong with admitting it.
...fair enough.
As long as by "everyone" you mean everyone and not just me.
I may be biased against Bandana Dee, but my dislike for that character comes from even before those events. I just hated him the first time I saw him, in the first trailer of Returns to Dreamland, simply because the game that was supposed to be a sequel to Kirby 64 removed one of the main characters of Kirby 64 in favor of a Waddle Dee; I just never liked the idea of a Waddle Dee as a main character, even in Kirby 64, they could have used Gooey instead (Metaknight was not considered a main character at the time).
Everything else only contributed to it.
 
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Chumble Spuzz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
19
...fair enough.
As long as by "everyone" you mean everyone and not just me.
I may be biased against Bandana Dee, but my dislike for that character comes from even before those events. I just hated him the first time I saw him, in the first trailer of Returns to Dreamland, simply because the game that was supposed to be a sequel to Kirby 64 removed one of the main characters of Kirby 64 in favor of a Waddle Dee; I just never liked the idea of a Waddle Dee as a main character, even in Kirby 64, they could have used Gooey instead (Metaknight was not considered a main character at the time).
Everything else only contributed to it.
I wouldn't say it was supposed to be a sequel to 64 at all. Kirby 64 closed off the Dark Matter trilogy. RtDL was a series reboot.
 

Folt

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
877
Location
Norway
...fair enough.
As long as by "everyone" you mean everyone and not just me.
I may be biased against Bandana Dee, but my dislike for that character comes from even before those events. I just hated him the first time I saw him, in the first trailer of Returns to Dreamland, simply because the game that was supposed to be a sequel to Kirby 64 removed one of the main characters of Kirby 64 in favor of a Waddle Dee; I just never liked the idea of a Waddle Dee as a main character, even in Kirby 64, they could have used Gooey instead (Metaknight was not considered a main character at the time).
Everything else only contributed to it.
Then let's put it like this: The majority is biased towards Bandana Dee, for good reason since Bandana Dee has managed to stay a part of the recurring cast consisting of Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, and recently himself since his reintroduction in Super Star Ultra. Of all Kirby characters, he has the highest chance of becoming playable, and HAL has repeatedly used him as a "face" regarding the Waddle Dee race which is popular among Kirby fans. Of all potential Kirby newcomers, it's Bandana Dee who has the highest chance of appearing and would please the most fans by doing so.
 

YoshiandToad

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Dec 24, 2001
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Still up Peach's dress.
...fair enough.
As long as by "everyone" you mean everyone and not just me.
I may be biased against Bandana Dee, but my dislike for that character comes from even before those events. I just hated him the first time I saw him, in the first trailer of Returns to Dreamland, simply because the game that was supposed to be a sequel to Kirby 64 removed one of the main characters of Kirby 64 in favor of a Waddle Dee; I just never liked the idea of a Waddle Dee as a main character, even in Kirby 64, they could have used Gooey instead (Metaknight was not considered a main character at the time).
Everything else only contributed to it.
Surely you should be more mad at Metaknight for replacing a main character of Kirby 64 for Returns to Dreamland?
Bandana Dee could very well be the Crystal Shards Waddle Dee after some training, but Metaknight sure as heck isn't Adeline(whom I'm assuming you were disappointed about being MIA). Dee replaced Dee at worst.

On a side note; I'd have adored Gooey too in 64. He should have been present to finish the Dark Matter games.
 

PurpleStuff5

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
34
I'm making a post that detracts a popular character, I'm sorry, I'll try to make it as much objective as possible and with documentation and explanation, so it's not an hate post (it's not my intention).

Are you sure about that? Does he?
I mean, I agree about it being popular and having a lot of fans, but is he really on the same level as the regular cast?
Ok, in Kirby Star Allies (Guest Star) he has the same intro picture as Metaknight and King Dedede, ok... but that's a weak point IMO, he's there to represent all the waddle dees (according to the description), and he has been in many games, he doesn't have a specific game to represent so they went for the neutral screen (the other characters have a screen that emulates the boxart of the games they are from).

But what about his presence in the other games? Most games he is in are spin-offs, and most of the times he gets a side role. Team Kirby Clash Deluxe is the only game where he gets a slighty bigger role as he's along with Magolor the only NPC you can talk to. But in the 3DS games he's just there to throw stuff at you and does not appear in the story, in Superstar Ultra he is a minor character of a side mode; in the anniversary collection he just appears and does nothing.

Now let's talk about those games where he apparently had a major role:

Kirby's Return to Dreamland: He's one of the main four characters, though he barely interacts with the other characters, just as anyone else. Metaknight, King Dedede and Waddle Dee are there to allow multiplayer, story wise they just do the same actions as Kirby and stare; they aren't really involved in the story. I think Waddle Dee (so it was called) was there more to replace a proper helper system than to be its own character.

Kirby Battle Royale: He appears in the story mode, he's a main character in that mode, though.......... when you play multiplayer (the main mode of the game, as it's mainly a multiplayer party game) you are not allowed to play as him, you can only play as Kirby, Metaknight, King Dedede and a Waddle Dee without the bandanna.

Now about Rainbow Curse: this speaks itself. Bandana Dee is not even considered a character, it's mentioned as an helper of Kirby but he's clearly intended to be a minor character.

Lastly, HAL almost always prefers to use regular waddle dees instead of Bandana Dee, in promotional material and merchandise. They made an amiibo of Waddle Dee, that's just a regular Waddle Dee.

So I wouldn't call him part of the main cast. Surely he appeared a lot of times, but he has always been a secondary character, most of the times a minor one too. Magolor on the other hand, appeared less, but has way more involvement with the lore of the series, and his action had some impact too.
While Magolor is not my biggest priority as a Kirby newcomer, I think Magolor is a lot more relevant than Bandana Dee.

It seems that HAL considers the main group of characters to be Kirby, King Dedede, Metaknight, and Waddle Dees. Waddle Dees as a species, not as a specific character. But when you think about it, does a regular Waddle Dee really deserve to be in Smash? I don't know, really. For sure I would prefer a regular Waddle Dee, with a bandanna as one of the many costumes (along with the sailor hat and other stuff), than Bandana Dee as a specific character in the game ond only palette swaps as costumes (also if you take Waddle Dee as a species, you have way more freedom to build a moveset, taking inspiration from a lot more source material than just the Spear Ability and to an extent Parasol).

I agree with you about it pleasing the highest amount of fans, that's a good point, but I wouldn't bring relevance into this, it's more about granting the fans' requests; it all depends on if Sakurai thinks that a Waddle Dee deserves a spot in the roster or not (if he thinks it does, then expect him as a newcomer, but expect him to be Waddle Dee, not Bandana Dee; but if Toad is of any indication, then I wouldn't bring my hopes too much up).

Anyway, there is a rumor about the voice actress of Kirby, apparenly she has replied to a Bandana Dee fan with a vague comment that seems to hint that Bandana Dee in Smash is a possibility, so yeah, it's a possibility, but I still think it's only due to fans' request, not because of relevance. And nothing is confirmed anyway, it's just a vague rumor.
If all those fans who say "I like that Kirby character but Bandana Dee must be in first" would have supported their actual favorite character instead, it would have had an actual chance instead, this way IMO is just a wasted opportunity for all the Kirby fans.
I'm not a huge Bandana Dee supporter by any means, but I feel like if you have to make a post this long and involved to explain why a character isn't relevant or important to a series, you're demonstrating exactly why this character's inclusion has such validity. Kirby isn't a game which much character interaction, complexity, or lore emphasis in the first place, so him being playable and constantly visible stands solidly as the backbone for his status as a frontrunner in the newcomer speculation discussion.

I'm not trying to disrespect your post in any way, and I appreciate the amount of evidence you bring into the argument.
 

Iko MattOrr

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Then let's put it like this: The majority is biased towards Bandana Dee, for good reason since Bandana Dee has managed to stay a part of the recurring cast consisting of Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, and recently himself since his reintroduction in Super Star Ultra. Of all Kirby characters, he has the highest chance of becoming playable, and HAL has repeatedly used him as a "face" regarding the Waddle Dee race which is popular among Kirby fans. Of all potential Kirby newcomers, it's Bandana Dee who has the highest chance of appearing and would please the most fans by doing so.
Isn't that bias too? As I explained, HAL doesn't consider Bandana Dee as a main character, they consider Waddle Dees (species) as main character, as confirmed by facts (promotional material, merchandise, Amiibo, in-game elements). If they decided to add him in Smash, it would be as Waddle Dee, but then you have a lot of problems. Waddle Dees often appear in special modes such as story mode or Smash Run, if you have him as a character too it would be confusing for the player.
Also, the question you should ask yourself is, do a regular Waddle Dee really deserve a spot in the roster? There's not a true reply to this question, the true repy will be what Sakurai will do.

Surely you should be more mad at Metaknight for replacing a main character of Kirby 64 for Returns to Dreamland?
Bandana Dee could very well be the Crystal Shards Waddle Dee after some training, but Metaknight sure as heck isn't Adeline(whom I'm assuming you were disappointed about being MIA). Dee replaced Dee at worst.

On a side note; I'd have adored Gooey too in 64. He should have been present to finish the Dark Matter games.
Metaknight became a main character after Amazing Mirror, he was expected to be there. Waddle Dee on the other hand has always been there to fill the absence of a 4th main character, except that they had a 4th main character (Adeleine) and a 5th too (Gooey), they purposely decided to scrap them from the franchise for whatever marketing reason, I don't relly know why.
In addition to this, Bandana Dee doesn't really add anything to the series, he is just a Spear Ability helper; both his asset and his gameplay are recycled from other elements of the game, and unlike all the other characters, he does not have any story/lore relevance. as a Kirby fan I find this offensive.

I'm not a huge Bandana Dee supporter by any means, but I feel like if you have to make a post this long and involved to explain why a character isn't relevant or important to a series, you're demonstrating exactly why this character's inclusion has such validity. Kirby isn't a game which much character interaction, complexity, or lore emphasis in the first place, so him being playable and constantly visible stands solidly as the backbone for his status as a frontrunner in the newcomer speculation discussion.

I'm not trying to disrespect your post in any way, and I appreciate the amount of evidence you bring into the argument.
My post is long because I analyzed his presence in every game. I can make long posts about every character in the series, trust me.
The problem is that, since we are talking about bias, there are a lot of people out there who promote Bandana Dee as if he's the most important character in the world, and people with not much knownledge of the Kirby series are getting convinced by those statements, despite the fact that most of them are not completely accurate.

just some days ago I was searching for informations about Shadow Kirby, and I ended into a wiki page.
here's the link
Something caught my attention:
"In Kirby & The Amazing Mirror, Kirby can inhale and swallow Shadow Kirby for a Copy Ability (which depends on the Copy Ability Shadow Kirby is using). However, he will later appear unharmed regardless of whether Kirby inhaled him or not. He shares this trait with other inhalable characters, such as Bandana Waddle Dee, who have a significant role in the story of Kirby games."
You see? Bias.
That sentence does not contribute with the statement, it's out of place, and it seems to be there only to promote Bandana Dee as a character. Since Wikis are written by fans, this is totally something written by a Bandana Dee fan.
The point is that the information is even false let's say inaccurate, since they are saying that he has a significant role in the "story" of kirby games (that means the plot), when Bandana Dee never had an active role in the story outside of Revenge of the King (minor side mode of Kirby Superstar Ultra) and the story mode of Kirby Battle Royale (secondary mode of a minor spin-off that's not even successful).

I suppose that the scene at the beginning of Rainbow Curse also counts as active role, but it's just 1 scene in the intro, then the game is all about Elline, Kirby and Claycia/Dark Crafter, Bandana Dee is passive/optional for the rest of the game and has no impact on the story.

KRTD is a special case because while the 4 characters are treated as a group and act all together, they are often passive and do nothing but stare, or just repeat the actions of someone else (usually Kirby because he is the one who takes initiative, but there are a couple of exceptions).
Also Kirby seems to be main the focus for most of the time: Magolor talks to him like if the other characters weren't there at all; so I'm not sure if I would consider that as a significant role for the dee, it's more like 0.25% of significant role, story-wise, or even less if we consider that after all, Kirby is the main character and the one who takes credit for the actions of the group.
I mean, he has a role and he's considered part of the main group, but his actions aren't significant outside of the group, he doesn't take initiative and don't contribute to the story, he just does what the group do, like everyone else; you can replace him with any other character, or even remove him completely, and the story wouldn't change at all.

He definitely has no role in the story of Star Allies, unless you count being a bullet along with many other characters as a significant role in the story.

Also, that statement above implies that Bandana Dee gives you a copy ability on the first encounter, and then appears unharmed later in the game (totally false), as well as it implies that there are other characters who have a role, appear unharmed and can be inhaled, something that's just false, Flowery Woods in Kirby Triple Deluxe appears "unharmed" (compared to Hypernova), but he barely has a role in the story. Multiplayer characters (like Gooey) are a completely different game mechanic so the comparison doesn't work at all. All of them are very specific cases in very specific games, so "in the story of Kirby games" is very generic and misleading.

The web is full of those misleading informations created only to influence people to believe that Bandana Dee is worth being in Smash, especially in social media.
 
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Folt

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Isn't that bias too? As I explained, HAL doesn't consider Bandana Dee as a main character, they consider Waddle Dees (species) as main character, as confirmed by facts (promotional material, merchandise, Amiibo, in-game elements). If they decided to add him in Smash, it would be as Waddle Dee, but then you have a lot of problems. Waddle Dees often appear in special modes such as story mode or Smash Run, if you have him as a character too it would be confusing for the player.
Also, the question you should ask yourself is, do a regular Waddle Dee really deserve a spot in the roster? There's not a true reply to this question, the true repy will be what Sakurai will do.
Hence why going with Bandana Dee instead of normal Waddle Dee would be the logical choice for a playable rep. The fans get a playable Waddle Dee, and Bandana Dee has a unique enough look to let people see a clear difference between him and rest of the Waddle Dees which means the bandana-less Waddle Dees can still be used as NPCs.
 

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This is something I'm pretty sure will never happen, but...
What do you think about Looker as a playable character? I've always thought it would be cool to have a Pokémon rep that's not actually a Pokémon. He could use different items in his moveset-- I'm thinking Escape Rope as a tether grab, Quick Claw as a dash attack, stuff like that. I'd love to hear what others have to say about this idea!
While I doubt it'll happen (due to The Pokémon Company likely not giving the okay for human characters from the Pokémon universe to physically attack other playable Pokémon), I'd love this. Looker's my favorite human character in Pokémon.
 

StormC

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Magolor is not more relevant than Bandana Dee lol. What planet are we on.

Please show me where Magolor has had a role in every Kirby game since 2011.
 

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Magolor is not more relevant than Bandana Dee lol. What planet are we on.

Please show me where Magolor has had a role in every Kirby game since 2011.
Do you know that Magolor had a role in almost as many games as Bandana Dee (3 less actually), and usually his roles have been bigger?
And that he heavily influenced the lore of the whole series since his debut?
And that the stories of Planet Robobot and Star Allies are connected with Magolor's lore?
And that he's going to be added as DLC to Kirby Star Allies as playable very soon? (probably in a couple of months)

Games where Magolor has a role and Bandana Dee doesn't:
-20th Anniversary Collection: he's the main rival of the ability challenge mode, and you race him several times (Bandana Dee appears but does nothing)
-Dedede's Drum Dash Deluxe: Magolor's theme is the final song, and he appears as a stage hazard in that song's stage (Bandana Dee is not in)
and "According to director Shinya Kumazaki, the stages Dedede plays through were built by Magolor, as he demonstrated in Kirby's Dream Collection Special Edition that he has experience building amusement parks. " source

Games where Bandana Dee has a role and not Magolor:
-Kirby Triple Deluxe: Bandana Dee throws food and street pass stuff to you (Magolor is reference in Dedede's Drum Dash as the final song too but he does not appear directly, and I suppose that "he has built the stages" is still valid so he has a role kinda).
-Kirby Planet Robobot: Bandana Dee does the same as the previous game (Magolor does not appear directly, but the Lor Starcutter makes a cameo in Galacta Knight's bossfight; Also the story of the whole game is a nod to Magolor's dialogues in KRTD).
-Kirby and the Rainbow Curse: He's playable but he's apparently not as important as the other characters. (Magolor is not in the game, just like any other recurring character).
-Kirby Superstar Ultra: A joke boss in a subgame. (Magolor didn't even exist yet, the game is older)
-Kirby Battle Royale: He appears in the story mode but you can't play as him, you can play as Dedede and Metaknight but the playable Waddle Dee is regular and does not have a bandanna as hat (you can change hats but they purposely excluded the bandanna).

So, yeah, Bandana Dee appears in 3 more games, though his roles mostly consist in sleeping, throwing food at you, being a joke boss or being a secondary character, while Magolor appears in 3 games less, but he has heavy lore involvement, he's usually a final boss or an important character, and even when he doesn't appear, he is still referenced through lore.
Also I believe Magolor gets more merchandise than Bandana Dee, to be more precise, Magolor gets merchandise, while Bandana Dee usually doesn't, aside of some exceptions, such as that Kirby Train plush (that anyway is a different Waddle Dee with a tourist costume and the fact that has the blue bandana is just a coincidence/fanservice) and some promotional merchandise of games where he appeared in.

I'm not a Magolor supporter, but come on. He's probably the most likely newcomer too if Sakurai decides that Bandana Dee is not worth Smash, since he was apparently the second most voted Kirby character in the ballot and japanese people like him too.
 
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StormC

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Do you know that Magolor had a role in almost as many games as Bandana Dee (3 less actually), and usually his roles have been bigger?
And that he heavily influenced the lore of the whole series since his debut?
And that the stories of Planet Robobot and Star Allies are connected with Magolor's lore?
And that he's going to be added as DLC to Kirby Star Allies as playable very soon? (probably in a couple of months)

Games where Magolor has a role and Bandana Dee doesn't:
-20th Anniversary Collection: he's the main rival of the ability challenge mode, and you race him several times (Bandana Dee appears but does nothing)
-Dedede's Drum Dash Deluxe: Magolor's theme is the final song, and he appears as a stage hazard in that song's stage (Bandana Dee is not in)
and "According to director Shinya Kumazaki, the stages Dedede plays through were built by Magolor, as he demonstrated in Kirby's Dream Collection Special Edition that he has experience building amusement parks. " source

Games where Bandana Dee has a role and not Magolor:
-Kirby Triple Deluxe: Bandana Dee throws food and street pass stuff to you (Magolor is reference in Dedede's Drum Dash as the final song too but he does not appear directly, and I suppose that "he has built the stages" is still valid so he has a role kinda).
-Kirby Planet Robobot: Bandana Dee does the same as the previous game (Magolor does not appear directly, but the Lor Starcutter makes a cameo in Galacta Knight's bossfight; Also the story of the whole game is a nod to Magolor's dialogues in KRTD).
-Kirby and the Rainbow Curse: He's playable but he's apparently not as important as the other characters. (Magolor is not in the game, just like any other recurring character).
-Kirby Superstar Ultra: A joke boss in a subgame. (Magolor didn't even exist yet, the game is older)
-Kirby Battle Royale: He appears in the story mode but you can't play as him, you can play as Dedede and Metaknight but the playable Waddle Dee is regular and does not have a bandanna as hat (you can change hats but they purposely excluded the bandanna).

So, yeah, Bandana Dee appears in 3 more games, though his roles mostly consist in sleeping, throwing food at you, being a joke boss or being a secondary character, while Magolor appears in 3 games less, but he has heavy lore involvement, he's usually a final boss or an important character, and even when he doesn't appear, he is still referenced through lore.
Also I believe Magolor gets more merchandise than Bandana Dee, to be more precise, Magolor gets merchandise, while Bandana Dee usually doesn't (aside of some exceptions, being that Kirby Train plush (that anyway is a different Waddle Dee with a tourist costume and the fact that has the blue bandana is just a coincidence/fanservice) and some promotional merchandise of games where he appeared in).

I'm not a Magolor supporter, but come on. He's probably the most likely newcomer too if Sakurai decides that Bandana Dee is not worth Smash, since he was apparently the second most voted Kirby character in the ballot and japanese people like him too.
Bandana Dee is a playable character in three games and Magolor has been the main villain of one while reduced to cameo appearances in others.

He isn't even a confirmed Dream Friend yet. This is like saying Lord Fredrik is more important than Dixie Kong. He's a moderately notable one-off villain.
 

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Bandana Dee is a playable character in three games and Magolor has been the main villain of one while reduced to cameo appearances in others.

He isn't even a confirmed Dream Friend yet. This is like saying Lord Fredrik is more important than Dixie Kong. He's a moderately notable one-off villain.
If you count the anniversary collection, Magolor has been the main "villain" of 2 games, and if you add Dedede's Drum Dash, 3. They are spin-offs but still.
And Magolor is a confirmed Dream Friend since the very first leak, he's the first name of character found in the code when the first set of Dream Friends wasn't even released. He still needs to be announced, but the announcement will come soon.
 

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Not gonna lie, I'd actually prefer Magolor over Dee. I've always been a fan of his design.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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I’m having trouble seeing how Magolor is more likely that badana dee since Bandana is considered waddle dee

And waddle dee has been in all the games

I mean I suppose the ballot might get him over bandana dee and also he’s another one for the ex villain catergory of lirby

Edit: oops i forgot



Magolor is number 4 in the ballot for japan (number 2 if you exclude King K. Rool, inklings and the veterans)
 
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