*NEW!!* Wario Matchup Discussion: Snake!

[Pwneroni]

Are you ready to fight for your life against a battle hardened, war seasoned veteran? Willing to dodge bombs, swallow grenades and ride over chasms of traps? You bet you Aladdin boots we are!

Some Wario players feel that it is time to have a rediscussion of a few of our matchups! Snake was chosen at random to be the first one! The ratio will start out as 50:50, and advantages/disadvantages will be discussed then applied to the matchup.

Let the commencing commence!

Snake: 50-50

Videos:

Sebrik (Wario) vs MVD (Snake)

 

[Pwneroni]

To start, I'll list a few advantages/disadvantages for both characters!

Snake
+ Great range on tilts
+ Quick jab, high priority
+ Awesome killing power with multiple moves
+ Very good projectiles that have tons of utility
+ Super heavy with good DI, takes a lot to kill this *****!
+ Multiple grab release options against Wario, most are very good
+ Dthrow puts you in a disadvantaged position (Wario has fairly slow tech rolls)
+ B-reversals give more aerial options

- Slow air speed, more vulnerable in the air
- Sluggish recovery, disadvantaged position
- Cypher can be bitten with Wario's bite, causing him to fall with no Up B.

Wario
+ 2nd best aerial speed in the game
+ Quick aerials, great utility
+ Explosive fart that kills at reasonable %'s (against Snake, that is)
+ Neutral B (Bite) can eat grenades, chomp cyphers and punish shields
+ Dthrow -> buffered Dtilt combos at low to mid percentages
+ Awesome recovery with tons of options!
+ Bike + tires can be fairly good projectiles when used right.

- Gets grab released (if grabbed)
- Small-ish range in air and ground
- Slow jump off the ground (7 frames)

Feel free to add if I missed anything

 

[Kuro~]

Wario has extra frames of vulnerability b4 he can move after the tech chase. Makes it ez to tech chase him if you somewhatgood reaction time. Also if wario plays the agressor here, you just made the matchup 10x easier for snake. You have to take real small hits and eventually get him in the air and DONT LET HIM DOWN. Also if he has to cyper that should be a free fart. The gimp is not as reliable imo once they are at mid-high % offstage.

 

[2-DJeff]

Wario has extra frames of vulnerability b4 he can move after the tech chase. Makes it ez to tech chase him if you somewhatgood reaction time. Also if wario plays the agressor here, you just made the matchup 10x easier for snake. You have to take real small hits and eventually get him in the air and DONT LET HIM DOWN. Also if he has to cyper that should be a free fart. The gimp is not as reliable imo once they are at mid-high % offstage.

yea free fart but it all depends on what position snake is in like if snake is abled to get bite gimped do it

 

[femmetriforce]

Every Aerial move of Snake is very punishable, almost a free fart killing, Nair, if you read this move or Bair, or Uair, and most of all Dair, is a free fart, Snake ending's lag of these moves really suck.

Also Wario's Utilt is so useful to combo, with Nair, or Jab, or even bite =D, Bair is useful to gain some midrange to camp, Dtilt oos is a great option to gimp with Fair and eating cypher with bite...Hmmm when Snake is on a platform above you he'll try to grenade, to explode you with some move you do...If I may suggest Bite here is tasty, because you drag down the snake and the grenade won't explode.

That's the little advice I can give, if I have more sets against SnakeI'll upload them here, to demonstrate some of my points.

Fin del comunicado

 

[Lord Chair]

I played Ramin's Snake yesterday and it went pretty well aside of being techchased for 40+% like, every time he grabbed me. I've played quite a few Snakes by now, including Ally, Razer, Calzorz (EU top Snake) and Squall, but none of them did it the way Ramin put it into practice.

If Snake jabs right after the dthrow, it beats out getup attack and practically beats normal getup as well: he'll jab your invincibility frames and will be able to grab you on reaction (guaranteed), same counts for rolling behind him.

He and I tested around a bit (read: it took me a while to adapt to his grab fishing and I got techchased quite often for a while) and I realized how stupid a position Wario is really in when being dthrown by Snake. I recall having been techchased a tad by the Snakes mentioned earlier, but with Ramin it just seemed absolutely hopeless. The only real options seemed to be rolling away, or getup attack predicting him predicting a roll away. Everything else would just get punished on reaction. Getting grabbed facing the ledge (or on a platform, though that rarely happened) was demoralizing like hell.

Of course, jab also beats doing nothing, but in a different sense. Technically, expecting the inevitable jab should allow Wario to SDI it and prevent guaranteed followups of happening. It took me a while to properly SDI the jab, and it's still a rather awkward position to be in, but it's in no way as bad as having the tech chase continued. This should actually be the best solution to the whole thing, I do realize that, but I figured mentioning the whole jab thing would be worthwhile (especially since Ramin was actually the first one I've seen it put into practice regularly, he told me he was told to do so by Ally, whom explained he preferred not to do it himself (without explaining that specific preference, oh well)).

Random subject is random. Oh and on another note, techchasing on BF's top platform with uthrow at lower percentages is rather pro (why didn't I notice that before O_O).

Posted this in back room long time ago but I think it still applies.

Don't really feel like posting a whole lot more on this MU.

Apparently Ramin was a liar and Ally was never the one who told him about it.

 

[Kuro~]

yea free fart but it all depends on what position snake is in like if snake is abled to get bite gimped do it

I'd think the bite is best if they are low-diagonal. Anything mid to mid-high to high should be fart instead imo. Cuz if u just bite the cypher they can still c4 at those heights.

@Lord Chair Hrnut/Sax told me about that same techchase thing.

One thing i think more warios should master is SDI. I dont see enough good sdi among you all.

 

[Pwneroni]

Wow LC, you know that really reminds me a lot of Sheik vs Falcon in Melee haha. Same exact thing with SDI'ing the jab!

Nerd gave some great advice on the Snake matchup a while ago: Do not get Ftilted. If you avoid getting Ftilted, it will take quite a while longer for you get up to killing %, thus giving you more time to fart/fight/gimp whatever. Snake's Ftilt, while huge, isn't too hard to avoid if you do it right. Wario's Fsmash is a big no-no, if shielded Snake gets a free Ftilt/Utilt against you. Ouch.

 

[Kuro~]

Wow LC, you know that really reminds me a lot of Sheik vs Falcon in Melee haha. Same exact thing with SDI'ing the jab!

Nerd gave some great advice on the Snake matchup a while ago: Do not get Ftilted. If you avoid getting Ftilted, it will take quite a while longer for you get up to killing %, thus giving you more time to fart/fight/gimp whatever. Snake's Ftilt, while huge, isn't too hard to avoid if you do it right. Wario's Fsmash is a big no-no, if shielded Snake gets a free Ftilt/Utilt against you. Ouch.

That's why i say warios should play super campy in this mu. Cuz snakes pivot boost grab range is way OP. So even if you try to space your moves around him your better off punishing his actions/playing campy.

 

[AllyKnight]

Umm told what to what?

 

[Kuro~]

Umm told what to what?

Nothing. Go back to your hyperbolic time chamber.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Pwneroni]

Totally agreed Masky, if the Wario knows what he's doing and gets some momentum, it can really turn into an awesome situation for them and a terrible one for the Snake player.

Anyone know of a video that can be used as a showmatch? I have a few against a Washington Snake, but it would be great if we could gather a few players' videos, as to compare their specific styles.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Pwneroni]

Okay let's talk about that specific match. What did Sebrik do right/correctly, and how did he stray from how the matchup is "supposed" to be played? IMO matchups are mostfly fairly broad, and as long as you are reasonably safe and don't put yourself in bad position, your personal skill should take care of the rest.

I noticed Sebrik favored biking away from Snake high into the air, a defensive and campy maneuver. He was also no slouch in the attacking department, using Snake's wieght to get some sick combos. Maybe that could be added as a point in the matchup? Snake is farily heavy, so at lower percents it's easier to score combos. My own experiences in the matchup support this idea, anyone else agree?

 

[2-DJeff]

this is how the mu should be played
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOe5yXDwNTE

 

[Pwneroni]

What exactly makes you say that?

 

[2-DJeff]

What exactly makes you say that?

evasive and applying pressure at the same time thats just my opinon though

 

[Pwneroni]

Go ahead and elaborate imo glutonny used a bit too much Fsmash and rolls, but that's really just his style. You're right about one thing though: being evasive and applying pressure is very possible if you do it right. Glutonny is more aggro than defensive, but he is smart about it and doesn't commit too much (except with those Fsmashes lol).

 

[2-DJeff]

yea my bro plays a style kind of like it just be smart with what you do is key

 

[Lord Chair]

/majorfacepalm

 

[Kuro~]

/majorfacepalm

o.o okeball:?

 

[Lord Chair]

 

[Pwneroni]

Lol well at least he tried! xD A for effort lmao

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Pwneroni]

Pwneroni vs MrBojangle Showmatch

A video I thought shows a lot of the Snake matchup

 

[Labernash]

Waft is crazy in this MU (as always) because snake is left open alot. Biting cypher, wafting cypher, and DAir to NAir is all I know to do. Save, Counter Picking Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Lord Chair]

Nah, major problem with people still thinking Glutonny has an effective playstyle.

 

[Nicks]

Pwneroni vs MrBojangle Showmatch

A video I thought shows a lot of the Snake matchup

why do you play so aggresive?

why not start camping when snake is at kill percent to let the fart charge?

 

[Kuro~]

1)That snake didnt set traps to cover your landing.
2) did NOT boost pivot grab at all. There were a bunch of time you would of been grabbed if he had boost pivot grabbed
3) did NOT tech chase enough/well enough. You should feel helpless when a snake tech chases you as wario. You can FEEL those extra frames you have that other chars dont. It so gay how he can do it on reaction.

Other than that ya it was a decent representation of the mu. Cept you need to get him in the air more.

 

[(S!C)]

its really important to get the 4th port, then you can bite **** him.

hmmm when the match starts, go to him, bite to bite to grab
or rising full hop dair to uair to uair
grab him dthrow to reversed buffered dtilt (i prefer jabs, but they are powershieldable in that case)
eat the cypher
bait him, wait for his utilt abusing and then punish with bite bite bite bite bite bite


uhm if hes waiting with a pivot grab for your landing, just pull out the bike and drive away, dont attack him when he do nothing ^-^

 

[Labernash]

Rising full hop DAir to UAir Uair? Sounds.... S!C... I'ma try that!

 

[Pwneroni]

That's really the best I could do, MrBoj is the #1 Snake we have in the PacNW haha, no really **** snake mains up here. However, it makes me think about the matchup since most of our matches look the same. Lots of grenades, tilts, aerials and cypher bites.

One thing I notice against Snake is his lack of options when he has no stage control, or off the edge recovering. He has a few options with explosions, but on the whole Snake is at a disadvantage in that position. Keeping him off the edge and in the air is one of the best ways for Wario to rack up damage, gain the upper hand and some momentum, possibly even scoring a cypher bite gimp. They're a lot easier to come by than you think, you just have to know the situations and the setups.

Playing against a lvl 3 snake for like 5 99 minute matches REALLY helped my cypher biting skills. Lvl 3 Snake may not use his cypher like pro Snakes, but it's good enough to give you target practice and give you a feel for the situation. Try it out, worked wonders for me!

IMPORTANT FIND?: In the second time around the second transformation, Snake Ftilts and I go right through it with my bike. Could this be useful? :O

Pwn vs Boj MU Showmatch #2

I found a better match I think, it really shows how Wario can really put the hurt on Snake when he's off the ledge. Boj could have gone for the ledge a bit more, but from there his options are pretty limited as well.

Great setups for cypher gimps I've found are Nair and Fair, sometimes Bite as well. Hitting Snake out of his double jump is the absolute key, it puts him in a terrible position where you have the upper hand.

 

[PieDisliker]

Don't have time to discuss this atm. Very busy, but I have a feeling I'm going to believe the matchup is 50:50.

Will discuss later.

 

[(S!C)]

lets make a mu discussion thread about ddd

honestly im depressed about that fat guy, he can just mess around and win

 

[PieDisliker]

I feel that the Snake matchup is narrowed down to two aspects. Camping and pressure. It comes down to who can camp the best while taking the least damage and getting in a better position, as well as who can apply the most pressure correctly and who can deal with the pressure the best. We're good with applying air pressure, and Snake provides excellent pressure with his utilities to cover our options. That sounds like a 50-50 matchup to me.

Also, I'm not sure if this is actually useful, but when I'm in a tight spot and I'm being pressured by Snake, sometimes I just up B out of sheild. If Snake is right on top of you, up B tends to hit and I think it's a good way to get us out of a situation. It's situational, but it's good for 1 or 2 uses a match, IMO.

 

[Pwneroni]

Sooo I think we may be ready for a matchup summary. It seems like most agree that the matchup is even, but what makes it so?

 

[Labernash]

Too much facial hair. And like pie said, it's a constant fight for the upper hand that only lasts 10 seconds. Maybe in Wario's favor, as Snake isn't great in the air, and it's easy to stay in there while he is thinking. Get Snake up there, it's a good 30% atleast on him. Just don't approach for the ground, I guess?

 

[eschemat]

I think it's definitely a 50-50 match-up. In some situations, they are both better. I would say generally Snake has a better ground game and Wario has a better air game. I would say though the Snake player can **** you dthrow + techchase, along with his grab release into utilt, coupled with his ridiculous boost pivot grab. He can also camp extremely well, leading him to be much better on the ground.

Wario just uthrows and ***** lol. Bite > Bite leads to Snakes getting offstage very easily, along with a free fart and cypher bite. Just a note, a one minute fart will destroy the cypher if you land it on the cypher, Fiction has a video of it on his channel I'm pretty sure. S!C already mentioned rising full hop dair to uair to uair which is ****, and generally Wario has some nice kill options, some great ways to get damage on Snake in the air and some kickass gimps.

 

[Pwneroni]

I played against Havok this weekend (a Socal Snake/Marth player) and WOW! My region doesn't have any super kick-*** Snakes, so it was really awesome to face one in the flesh! He was reeeeeeally amazing with grenades, a lot of my options were covered and it was really difficult to approach him. Wario has to bait openings, because if Snake has his way then you will be jumping around alllll daylee. You can bite his shield, and grab him if he pulls a grenade and shields (don't pummel or you will explode the nade).