New Tier List: No Longer Active

[clubbadubba]

Well its 2013 and so far we don't have a tier list that was made in 2013. I think that with all of the momentum we seem to be picking up or on the verge of picking up, it would be wise to make our community appear as active as possible. Their are a number of things we can do to make this happen. One obvious one is to host more competitive events (going to try to do the league again this summer btw). But another thing we can do is update our tier list regularly. I would suggest we do it on an annual basis (maybe right after Apex?). This post from the melee boards does a great job explaining why its important to do:

It doesn't matter if any characters change positions. The idea is that if a community is too lazy to update a tier list after 3 years, they probably don't have an active community. Picture a scenario with someone who has no idea competitive Melee exists. Someone tells them about it, so they Google around for a bit and find a Smash wiki. They go to the tier list because everyone always wants to know who the best is; it's human nature. They see the lists that were created over the years:
- 2 in '02
- 3 in '03
- 1 in '04
- 1 in '05
- 1 in '06
- 1 in '08
- 2 in 2010

No lists since 2010 is a pretty easy indicator to random people how alive a game is. If you didn't know what game those lists were for and you saw that pattern, wouldn't you assume the game died after 2010? I don't even particularly like tier lists because they inherently introduce tons of bias and encourage a lot of petty behavior in the community, such as new players flocking to the top characters or players who use lower tiered character feeling entitled to johns, etc. But we have a tier list regardless, so we might as well slap 2013 on the list so we can say our tier list is up to date.

I think it would be a great thing to do RIGHT NOW with all of the increased attention we are getting after Apex. I know some of you dislike tier lists and think they are stupid or whatnot, and the creation of one is no simple task (especially without a backroom to be an "authority" on the matter). Not to mention that we are pretty much in agreement on where things stand as far as tiers, and don't stand much to gain as far as game insight goes.

However, I think we should find a way to get this done for the SOLE purpose of appearing as active as possible to possible new members of the community. The iron is hot guys, we need to pick our game up. Now what this thread is for is

1) To get the idea into circulation

2) Have us brainstorm a good way to create a tier list without the backroom in existence. Even though the backroom was a joke, it did keep the discussion limited to a reasonable amount of people that at least has SOME verified knowledge about the game.

3) If people are adamantly opposed to creating a new tier list, feel free to brainstorm other ideas to get our community out their.

I"m hoping that some time soon in the future we will create a new thread for tier list creation, and will post that official tier list not only on this site but perhaps a few other choice places that potential players might visit.

Discuss.




Panel Members as of Now:

1)Star King
2) ?

 

[Yobolight]

My opinion on changes

Yoshi > Mario in their own tier

Ness = Jigglypuff = DK

Samus = Luigi = Link

 

[Battlecow]

too many equals signs

what's the point of a list if it says nothing

I'm down with the idea but only because I think a new tier list is a useful thing

 

[The Star King]

How will it be made? We could do voting, but like, I don't like the idea of it being completely public because of random noobs/trolls. Maybe some sort of elitist post count/join date sort of thing.

 

[Yobolight]

Stage specific tier lists?

or

One tier list that takes tournament rule-set and correct counterpicks into account?

 

[Nintendude]

Tier lists also have to be based on a specific ruleset. For example, Link becomes much worse if Hyrule is banned.

 

[The Star King]

Stage specific tier lists?

or

One tier list that takes tournament rule-set and correct counterpicks into account?

Obviously not the first

God no

 

[clubbadubba]

^^Purpose #2 oot as listed above:

Brainstorm a way to make it. I don't think this is a whole community project. It really is something more for a smaller, knowledgeable group. Back room's only real purpose was this in my mind. I think the community should elect a small group JUST FOR THIS PURPOSE, then that group decides. Yes I know that's basically a temporary backroom but as I said, I liked the idea of the backroom for this particular purpose

I'd say off of the Hyrule isn't banned current ruleset, as that was the one used at our most recent major tournament. I'd say we should make one list every year, and base it off of the ruleset of our biggest tournament in the past year.

 

[tacos]

congo for neutral.

 

[Yobolight]

Why not just ask Isai what he thinks and go with that?

 

[tacos]

^lol dis guy

wut

 

[Kimimaru]

My opinion on changes

Yoshi > Mario in their own tier

Ness = Jigglypuff = DK

Samus = Luigi = Link

Out of curiosity, why do you think Yoshi is better than Mario and Ness is equal to Jigglypuff and DK?

 

[cmu6eh]

SS Tier:
D. Kong
Yellow Kirby

S Tier:
Green Falcon
Blue Luigi

A Tier:
Blue Link
Green Samus
Fox
Green Mario


B Tier:
Party Hat Rat

C Tier:
Yoshi
Ness
Purin

 

[Yobolight]

Out of curiosity, why do you think Yoshi is better than Mario and Ness is equal to Jigglypuff and DK?

On Mario < Yoshi.

I think Yoshi wins the matchup between the two.
A big thing here is also the assumption of a tournament set, meaning that Mario would only be able to go to Hyrule 1/3 games.

Aside from between them, I think Yoshi does better against Pikachu and Fox.
Mario is better versus the mid-tiers and Kirby than Yoshi, but Pikachu, being the best character and all, is kind of a big deal.

------
I think Jigglypuff is equal to Ness and DK because they each do better against different characters.

I would rather be Ness or DK against a Samus or Luigi than a Jigglypuff.
I would rather be Jiggly or Ness against a Captain Falcon than a Donkey Kong.
I would rather be Jiggly against a Pika or Kirby than a Ness or DK.
I would rather be DK or Ness against Fox than a Jiggly.
They do fairly equally against Yoshi.

It is just hard to call one better than another, they just have different matchup spreads.

 

[The Star King]

^Dude, you put Yoshi above Mario because you give more weight to the high tier match-ups (rightfully so) and then evaluate match-ups equally immediately after that when talking about Puff/DK/Ness (ignoring the fact that you just said you'd rather be Puff for Falcon, Kirby, and Pikachu). lol. It's almost like that post was intentionally structured to be ironic.

Yeah I took a nap, got up, thought of doing an elected panel of voters, and came here to post that

I think that's probably the best idea

 

[asianaussie]

but matchup thread discussions are like, the best threads to go offtopic in discuss relevant and pressing matters in

i think we should open a thread for discussion, then just appoint a few (as in, 2 or 3) people to survey the thread, take the valuable opinions, discard the rubbish and fill in the gaps

 

[XKCP]

I agree with the concept, for sure. I've looked for tier lists as a general guideline or search of activity in other communities/games only to find old lists, unsure of whether the community has died off or if the list is just not being updated.

A committee sounds good and is really quite necessary (I'm sure we all can understand that).

A simple question though (I have not seen nor recall this being included in prior committees):
What are the criteria? As a specific example, would you be looking to include people of overall knowledge, or character specialists? Just curious, seeing as some matchups are not heavily agreed upon, and any slight changes could be brought about having both types of players (obviously). Character specialists might have bias (Ness lovers, looking at you), but that's what the overall committee and more general players can keep in check.

 

[Yobolight]

^Dude, you put Yoshi above Mario because you give more weight to the high tier match-ups (rightfully so) and then evaluate match-ups equally immediately after that when talking about Puff/DK/Ness (ignoring the fact that you just said you'd rather be Puff for Falcon, Kirby, and Pikachu). lol. It's almost like that post was intentionally structured to be ironic.

I'm not gonna lie, you are completely right about my logical inconsistency there. Although it does feel weird giving Puff the edge when she struggles against bottom tier as much as she does.

Yeah I took a nap, got up, thought of doing an elected panel of voters, and came here to post that

I think that's probably the best idea

I want Ballin4Life on the panel cause he isn't biased.

 

[clubbadubba]

Good to here everyone so far is up for it. Of the current feedback, seems like everyone agrees a panel is the way to go. Think we should get some more voices though so that it really is a community tier list.

In the meantime I guess what we should do is figure out how many people should be on the panel, and who those people should be. I would avoid specialists as members of the panel just because they only have insight into 1/6 of the match-ups. They would obviously participate in the general discussion, but the panel members should be able to understand the majority of the match-ups in question. I like the idea of a general discussion with the panel members taking the input and making the final decisions. Again, I don't think the decisions are nearly as important as actually getting the list out there quickly.

I suggest that we don't limit the panel size, but instead just take anyone who's qualified. Maybe nominate people and then vote on them?

 

[Han Solo]

Based on people I've played and people that I think are just generally knowledgable about the game, I nominate:

clubba
firo
ballin4life

I'm assuming Isai and Boom don't need nominations.

 

[ballin4life]

I think a panel is completely unnecessary and it would be a waste of time to go through an election process for a panel. There's really little difference between that and a back room anyway.

Just let everyone vote like in teh icy's old thread. We didn't have THAT big a problem with random people ruining the discussion.

I want Ballin4Life on the panel cause he isn't biased.

lol

 

[The Star King]

Just let everyone vote like in teh icy's old thread. We didn't have THAT big a problem with random people ruining the discussion.

Didn't he derive the tier list from the match-up thread? I don't think it was voting based.

 

[clubbadubba]

we did have a big problem with t3h icy's most recent attempt, we didn't really finish. too many people means a lot of turnover in voters DURING the process, because a lot of people don't stick around very long. I think having established members of the community do it is pretty good. I wouldn't mind using the backroom again (or at least those of them that still play the game...), but we can't just do total democracy. Too many peeps and too hard to sit down and do it all at once that way.

 

[Nintendude]

idk if Yoshi > Mario but Yoshi is definitely way better for the Fox matchup. The only reason I beat Foxes is because I get lucky and they fall off the stage (LOL brex) or I get a few gimps.

 

[AtotheZ]

I don't want to suggest OVERKILL but since we have two stage sets, do you guys want to work on a tier list for each one? I think it would be neato to evaluate how characters are better/worse with hyrule being banned or not

 

[The Star King]

Based on people I've played and people that I think are just generally knowledgable about the game, I nominate:

clubba
firo
ballin4life

I'm assuming Isai and Boom don't need nominations.

I think people should say they're up for it first before nominating them... I have a feeling stuff like people nomating Isai and then him never posting about it is gonna happen. lol.

idk if Yoshi > Mario but Yoshi is definitely way better for the Fox matchup. The only reason I beat Foxes is because I get lucky and they fall off the stage (LOL brex) or I get a few gimps.

lol Fox vs Mario so bad. I almost feel bad about beating you/Kimimaru with him

 

[ballin4life]

we did have a big problem with t3h icy's most recent attempt, we didn't really finish. too many people means a lot of turnover in voters DURING the process, because a lot of people don't stick around very long. I think having established members of the community do it is pretty good. I wouldn't mind using the backroom again (or at least those of them that still play the game...), but we can't just do total democracy. Too many peeps and too hard to sit down and do it all at once that way.

It will result in the same people voting either way. We'll just have wasted a bunch of time voting on people to be on the "committee".

If random people vote and disappear who cares? Just ignore them.

 

[Battlecow]

I don't mind a committee thing if we get to, y'know, see what they do so it isn't straight-up ******** like the Broom

 

[The Star King]

How would we NOT be able to see what they do? I was under the impression that there would be like a general discussion thread where everyone would participate.

 

[rjgbadger]

lmao

you guys are just trying to recreate a backroom?

 

[KnitePhox]

How would we NOT be able to see what they do? I was under the impression that there would be like a general discussion thread where everyone would participate.

i like this idea

kinda like a competitive community room/thread/section

where rules are discussed mostly


we would need like a mod or overseer so that no lowskill players get to make a huge impact


my $0.02

 

[clubbadubba]

ballin you understand that in t3h icy's thread we did have a panel right? A panel of 1, who happened to be t3h icy. Someone is always gonna make the final call, might as well make it people who know a lot about the game. Btw I'm not very free the next 2-4 weeks, so I might not be a good choice for a panel.

And we aren't wasting much time picking a panel, I say we make a panel and a discussion thread by this weekend.

 

[Detective Prince.]

igp nore

 

[asianaussie]

lol soup

10naotos

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

lmao

you guys are just trying to recreate a backroom?

we, as a collective community, are a backroom

If there's going to be a change in the tiers (or the need to change them) then there needs to be specific reasoning and that doesn't include the fact players like Nangoku placed high with Ness at apex, or any other examples.

I don't feel it's credible enough and for a game like smash, the perspective of tiers isn't absolute. I can't really think of something that needs to be changed.

Stage specific tier lists sounds just as pointless, unless you want to make it character specific. Brawl uses a system like Counter Picks and Strikes, iirc.

 

[Komotonoto]

Why don't we just make a tier list for every character? Would be nice.

 

[clubbadubba]

Its okay to publish a tier list without changes and date it 2013 if we think the most recent one still applies. The whole point is to be a more active community.

Also soup I don't think I follow what you said... changes in tier lists should be based on theorizing, not tournament results? I don't think anyone is going to be jumping on the ness bandwagon anytime soon, but real life results are usually a factor when making tier lists.

Anyway as far as people who I think should be on the panel IF they want to and will participate:

Definites:
Isai (prolly won't)
Boom (Might)
Jaime (might)
Star King (i think he will, but he likes to disappoint me )
Sensei (doubt it only because of activity of smashboards)
Zach (same as above)
Europe representative (probably Bear, though king funk is more into this stuff)
Australian Rep?????? (Ciaza?)
African Rep??? (seriously are there any african players? That'd be cool)

Maybes:
Killer
Tacos
YBOMBB
Firo
Probably more I'm forgetting but yea

 

[The Star King]

I'll participate lol

 

[M!nt]

bane would be good at that but he quit smash like a loser

why is firo and tacos a maybe?

 

[The Star King]

Where's Nintendude on that list. And Frogles if he wants to