New "Tafo Talks" Addresses State of Project M

[PlateProp]

Damn, children be all over that Nintendo **** up in here

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

Damn, children be all over that Nintendo **** up in here

True dat man . i swear most of these people have never played pm or just hate the game because its not officicaly sponsered by nintendo. they never discuss the mechanics of the game itself or say the game itself its bad, becuase they now its not.its really quite frustrating tbh

 

[taaffe]

can we redo this thread lol. even just the mention of project m brings out so many people who, never play the game, hate the game, want the game to die. theres hardly anyone here that actually plays project m and goes to tournaments talking about what tafo said. this is so dumb lol.

there are so many more people that are all over this site and reddit with strong opinions on PM that never go to tournaments while the actual pm tournament community just keeps playing there game at fests and tournaments and nothing is changing lol. the disconnect between the real smash community and these online places is so strong now a days.

 

[42rockjock]

Funny how the people who hate on PM have either never played it, have outdated knowledge on the game, or have never been to a local tourney in their lives. PM will live on and if smash 4 doesn't keep people interested you best believe PM will take its place back in the smash community

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Yeah, like that's gonna happen.

lets be real it already has... i cant see how pm can get big when it is not at an international tournaments where all the exposure is,,like evo isnt ever goin to let pm back in,,unless nintendo allows it...and nintendo is a company who doesnt add voicechat to an online multiplayer shooter in 2015,,,so they're never gonna let pm get really popular

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

lets be real it already has... i cant see how pm can get big when it is not at an international tournaments where all the exposure is,,like evo isnt ever goin to let pm back in,,unless nintendo allows it...and nintendo is a company who doesnt add voicechat to an online multiplayer shooter in 2015,,,so they're never gonna let pm get really popular

thts true nintendo wont let it be popular. but here is the problem it already is popular . nintendo dosnt decide if pm is popular, the people who play pm doe,. hell this WHOLE conversation is about the future of pm and look at all these people who respond. that tells me that this game is already is popular . were not debating on whether its popular, we are discussing how the tournament scene is and more specificaly how to get around the barriers blocking pm from becoming seen more in tournaments

 

[NoviceSmasher]

thts true nintendo wont let it be popular. but here is the problem it already is popular . nintendo dosnt decide if pm is popular, the people who play pm doe,. hell this WHOLE conversation is about the future of pm and look at all these people who respond. that tells me that this game is already is popular . were not debating on whether its popular, we are discussing how the tournament scene is and more specificaly how to get around the barriers blocking pm from becoming seen more in tournaments

im sorry but personally i think the barriers that pm have are too big to overcome,,,no appearances at evo and apex are huge problems,,,,,oh AND NO ****ING PAL VERSION

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So you're saying that the making of PM killed Brawl? If so, wasn't it the Brawl players who moved to PM? Wouldn't that be Brawl players killing Brawl?

Just a thought.

Partly, but not entirely.

The documentary and Evo strongly pushed for Melee to be the main game of smash and on top of that PM being similar was able to replace Brawl at majors and boot it from pretty much everywhere.

Yeah they could have hosted their own but it was too far too late when that picked up steam. The bad stigma and the overall forced push to have PM replace it is why it ultimately ended up how it did.

~

As for PM I hope it sticks, I like it still but I still got problems with it, trying to hard to be Melee 2.0 in many aspects, bias balancing, some changes far worse than a league of legends rework in terms of learning.

Some of these things irk me a lot but I still like the game.

 

[Grubert]

Real games > mods and hacks

Enjoy the basement tournies.

The best part about this is the same thing will happen to Sm4sh within a few years. Only Melee has the staying power. Everyone will forget about Sm4sh when the next game is released if not before, as happened with Brawl.

Also a basement tourny with PM beats a Sm4sh tourny any day, in my view. It's about what game you prefer to play... and nobody wants to switch games just so they can play on a stage (except possibly from PM to Melee, but hell no from PM to Sm4sh).

 

[himemiya]

So you're saying that the making of PM killed Brawl? If so, wasn't it the Brawl players who moved to PM? Wouldn't that be Brawl players killing Brawl?

Just a thought.

The that can handle tech skillz moved to p:m while the ones that couldn't moved to brawl -2.0.

 

[Gamwa]

I started into the competitive scene with PM, so here's my 2 cents.
(collapsed for long post)

Spoiler

PM is very well done for a mod in progress and was a good start into the competitive scene for somebody like me. Or so I thought.

Long story short, been playing Smash casual-competitively since 64 came out, always been the best in my friend groups in the various places I've lived, but never knew there was an actual professional comp scene out there. Played a ton of 64, not much Melee because I never had a Gamecube, and a good amount of Brawl the first couple years it was out.


Fast forward to 2013 when I found a group of Smash players at college who introduced me to PM and the competitive scene in North Carolina. The Brawl and PM players were generally friendly, but it was sometimes hard going to tournaments around NC because the Melee crowd there is toxic if you enjoy a Smash game that isn't Melee. There are obviously friendly players, such as PPMD (who annihilated me a few times in PM) as well as a lot of the tournament organizers, but unfortunately they're in the minority. I was constantly insulted for being a PM player, my girlfriend who wanted to get into competitive was constantly harassed and dropped out after only a few months, and it wasn't really fun after the first few tournaments I went to. Melee players caused problems when PM had as much priority at smaller tournies when there were equal numbers entrants, and in turn made the tournies drag hours longer than they should have. Brawl was pretty much nonexistent, maybe 10-15 entrants an event, so they finished up almost immediately without issue. Melee had beat Brawl already, so they were focusing on PM instead and ignored them. In the end I couldn't enjoy PM anymore because the people that I was supposed to go to for high-level play tried to bully players like me out of the scene. So I quit after only a year of attending tournaments. Didn't want to deal with it anymore, so yeah, they I guess they won. Many in NC claimed they have the friendliest scene in the country, which doesn't give a good impression of the Melee community overall if that's the best they have. Don’t worry, I don’t believe them.


Maryland on the other hand was the most welcoming scene I've ever been to, specifically Xanadu where Gimr and TK Breezy hang. Nobody cares what game you play, they get excited about all of them, and the seasoned players were patient with me still trying to learn tech skills. I actually had people try to help me get better at PM when I was there, even offered to teach me Melee if I ever visited again. They might have problem players there too, but I've only gotten the chance to go once, yet I enjoyed that far more than anything in NC. Unfortunate, because NC has a lot of talented Melee players I enjoyed watching. Still do sometimes on streams.


So what I've seen in the 2 years I've been watching the competitive scene is that it doesn't really matter whether "PM is worse than Melee" or "Sm4sh is killing PM" or even "Nintendo is holding a gun to PM's head." It's all about what environment PM is in and is up to the players to keep it alive. PM fans have a right to be worried though, because except for other PM players there is virtually no support for it. Melee tolerated it because it was better than Brawl in their eyes, PM players lost support from Brawl fans by claiming superiority, and now PM has a lot of infighting. PM's future literally depends on how its own community handles things, which isn't going well in a lot of places. The internet's one thing where everybody can talk from across the world, but it's the physical presence that matters.

 

[Caryslan]

The best part about this is the same thing will happen to Sm4sh within a few years. Only Melee has the staying power. Everyone will forget about Sm4sh when the next game is released if not before, as happened with Brawl.

Also a basement tourny with PM beats a Sm4sh tourny any day, in my view. It's about what game you prefer to play... and nobody wants to switch games just so they can play on a stage (except possibly from PM to Melee, but hell no from PM to Sm4sh).

I don't think Smash 4 will die the same painful death that Brawl did. Brawl died because a single character dominated the meta game for years, high level play was dominated by cheap tactics like chain grabs, grab releases, and other BS that rendered certain matchups unwinnable(DK vs Dedede anyone?), the worst character balance in the entire series, with characters like Link, Mario, and Captain Falcon being virtually unplayable at a high level, and horrible gameplay mechanics like tripping.

Regardless of if people think Smash 4 should have played more like Melee or not, it did fix alot of issues that Brawl had. The cast is better balanced and more characters are viable, BS tactics like chain grabs and grab releases have been removed, allowing characters like Ness who suffered due to those mechanics to improve vastly, and stuff like tripping is gone.

Smash 4 also has one key advantage that the previous three games never did. It has DLC content and balance patches. While I do think Smash 4 might lose popularity once Smash 5 comes out, I think it will endure alot better then Brawl did.

Its not just Smash 4 being an improved version of Brawl that sealed that game's fate. Unless I'm wrong, Brawl was already losing players and attention a few years before Smash 4 ever came out.

What killed Brawl was the fact that unless you wanted to play Meta Knight or exploit a character for their chain grab, it was simply not a rewarding game to play at a high level. When a large chunk of your cast is rendered unplayable at a high level due to the dominance of a single character or cheap stuff like chaingrabs, there is little incentive to really stick with a game, especially if you know your character will just get smoked by a Meta Knight Player or be grab released to death. Add in characters like Link that had stupid gameplay decisions that held them back, and I'm shocked Brawl endured as long as it had.

I think Smash 4 will survive alot longer then Brawl did, especially if the promise of customs, DLC characters, and patches help keep it a game that changes constantly.

 

[kinbobbobkin]

I don't think Smash 4 will die the same painful death that Brawl did. Brawl died because a single character dominated the meta game for years, high level play was dominated by cheap tactics like chain grabs, grab releases, and other BS that rendered certain matchups unwinnable(DK vs Dedede anyone?), the worst character balance in the entire series, with characters like Link, Mario, and Captain Falcon being virtually unplayable at a high level, and horrible gameplay mechanics like tripping.

Regardless of if people think Smash 4 should have played more like Melee or not, it did fix alot of issues that Brawl had. The cast is better balanced and more characters are viable, BS tactics like chain grabs and grab releases have been removed, allowing characters like Ness who suffered due to those mechanics to improve vastly, and stuff like tripping is gone.

Smash 4 also has one key advantage that the previous three games never did. It has DLC content and balance patches. While I do think Smash 4 might lose popularity once Smash 5 comes out, I think it will endure alot better then Brawl did.

Its not just Smash 4 being an improved version of Brawl that sealed that game's fate. Unless I'm wrong, Brawl was already losing players and attention a few years before Smash 4 ever came out.

What killed Brawl was the fact that unless you wanted to play Meta Knight or exploit a character for their chain grab, it was simply not a rewarding game to play at a high level. When a large chunk of your cast is rendered unplayable at a high level due to the dominance of a single character or cheap stuff like chaingrabs, there is little incentive to really stick with a game, especially if you know your character will just get smoked by a Meta Knight Player or be grab released to death. Add in characters like Link that had stupid gameplay decisions that held them back, and I'm shocked Brawl endured as long as it had.

I think Smash 4 will survive alot longer then Brawl did, especially if the promise of customs, DLC characters, and patches help keep it a game that changes constantly.

Thank you!! People should stop deciding Sm4sh's fate since it's not even a year old yet.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The best part about this is the same thing will happen to Sm4sh within a few years. Only Melee has the staying power. Everyone will forget about Sm4sh when the next game is released if not before, as happened with Brawl.

Also a basement tourny with PM beats a Sm4sh tourny any day, in my view. It's about what game you prefer to play... and nobody wants to switch games just so they can play on a stage (except possibly from PM to Melee, but hell no from PM to Sm4sh).

I doubt this.

With DLC and patches coming out and this smash having numbers comparable to Melee I don't think I would see it drop off anywhere close to what happened with Brawl.

Plus Brawl had a lot of other factors that aren't present with Smash 4 in terms of the why.

 

[Smasher-LTIMT]

I think that once Nintendo doesn't care about Smash 4 sales anymore, then they won't care so much about PM.

I think the reason they use their plastic claws to stop TO's from having PM is because they're afraid a new person to the smash community or ex brawl player would play PM instead of giving them money for smash 4. Just my 2 cents. PM should have a bright future because so many people love playing it.

I think I'd be the only person who doesn't.... I honestly Like Smash 4 better. no, not cause I'm a Melee or Project M hater, its cause I just like Smash 4 better! There is more of a variety of characters and stages to choose from! More stuff to do. And the Smash 4 side recieve's hate from a lot of Melee fans.... Some play Smash 4, but others hate it cause its not Melee! But that's why I like it better: its not Melee! Its a new generation of Super Smash Bros. That the Melee side of Smash Beats up on, and the Smash 4 side beats up on Melee, but not as much as Melee fans I've seen do to Smash 4.... I am one who likes all generations ofof Super Smash Bros. I am only halfway on the competitive side, can take on and beat some Competitive players, but I ain't one of the best.... I main Mewtwo in Smash 4!

 

[Smasher-LTIMT]

I doubt this.

With DLC and patches coming out and this smash having numbers comparable to Melee I don't think I would see it drop off anywhere close to what happened with Brawl.

Plus Brawl had a lot of other factors that aren't present with Smash 4 in terms of the why.

People always say what he said up there about Smash 4..... The "Melee is the only Staying Smash game!" Always that same thing.... People wanna beat up on Smash 4 for not being like Melee! Its different, and that's what's good about it, having the same game being exactly the same isn't too fun! Here is the one thing people don't like about Smash 4: While Melee is fast paced and based more on acting fast and more button mashing and controllers wearing outout faster of it, Smash 4 is slower cause it's more strategic! You need to plan your moves out, and read your opponents moves! ZeRo said something about some Smash players being a little lazy, he is right, some aren't willing to change to something new or actually plan out attacks, instead they just run around willy nilly hitting each other faster then they can think! No offense

 

[Champ Gold]

People always say what he said up there about Smash 4..... The "Melee is the only Staying Smash game!" Always that same thing.... People wanna beat up on Smash 4 for not being like Melee! Its different, and that's what's good about it, having the same game being exactly the same isn't too fun! Here is the one thing people don't like about Smash 4: While Melee is fast paced and based more on acting fast and more button mashing and controllers wearing outout faster of it, Smash 4 is slower cause it's more strategic! You need to plan your moves out, and read your opponents moves! ZeRo said something about some Smash players being a little lazy, he is right, some aren't willing to change to something new or actually plan out attacks, instead they just run around willy nilly hitting each other faster then they can think! No offense

I might piss a lot of people off by saying this but I believe Smash 4 is much closer to a fighter than any other Smash game due to its neutral game and defensive/offensive strategies. It's not to say Melee isn't more technical but Smash 4 doesn't have to be 80% offensive but it shouldn't be 80% defensive which it isn't compared to Brawl where you had to because characters had worst uphill battles in fighting games ever due to how insane Meta Knight was, BS Olimar, banana crazy Diddy and 0 to death chain grabs other characters had.

Smash 4 has those same uphill battles but it didn't felt impossible to deal with because you didn't put your self in a keep away game so you wouldn't get zero to death graingrabbed.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

My problem with PM is that the melee characters are still so good and developed that melee players will win the PM tournaments with their melee mains, giving them free money.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I think I'd be the only person who doesn't.... I honestly Like Smash 4 better. no, not cause I'm a Melee or Project M hater, its cause I just like Smash 4 better!

Good for you. It's called having an opinion and you're entitled to one. People may disagree or agree but it changes nothing... you decide for yourself.

There is more of a variety of characters and stages to choose from! More stuff to do. And the Smash 4 side recieve's hate from a lot of Melee fans....

Ok, so you like items and characters and stages. You're a casual and there's nothing wrong with that.

PM / Melee / 64 are more developed in metagame and meant for competitive players. Maybe that's why you don't like them as much.

Also, melee players get hate from smash 4 players a lot too, it's a two sided thing. The sad thing though is that most melee players have been playing smash for A LOT longer than smash 4 players who just started getting into smash, yet act like they know everything.

Some play Smash 4, but others hate it cause its not Melee! But that's why I like it better: its not Melee! Its a new generation of Super Smash Bros. That the Melee side of Smash Beats up on, and the Smash 4 side beats up on Melee, but not as much as Melee fans I've seen do to Smash 4.... I am one who likes all generations ofof Super Smash Bros. I am only halfway on the competitive side, can take on and beat some Competitive players, but I ain't one of the best.... I main Mewtwo in Smash 4!

You said it, it's the new generation of smash whether we like it or not.

Stop focusing on other people's negative opinions and enjoy the game is the best advice I can give. Then again judging from the way you write you can't be more than 14 or 15 so I guess other people's opinions matter more to you than they do to me / make you more upset.

It's not a crime to not enjoy playing PM or Melee. But you have to at least respect the skill required to play them at a high level even if you play casual.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also, melee players get hate from smash 4 players a lot too, it's a two sided thing. The sad thing though is that most melee players have been playing smash for A LOT longer than smash 4 players who just started getting into smash, yet act like they know everything.

It really doesn't take rocket science to understand how a video game works.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It really doesn't take rocket science to understand how a video game works.

Depends on the video game. Smash happens to be quite complicated.

Simple to pick up, extremely hard to play at a high level vs high level opponents.

I've been playing since I was 10 years old, and I'm 27 now. 17 years and I'm still learning new things all the time about smash...

I don't need to use melee as an example either, smash 4 has new tech springing up every day.

Although it doesn't take an IQ of 250 to understand smash, it certainly takes more than a few weeks / months. It takes years to really and truly understand the depth of the game and adopt a good mentality towards it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Depends on the video game. Smash happens to be quite complicated.

Simple to pick up, extremely hard to play at a high level vs high level opponents.

I've been playing since I was 10 years old, and I'm 27 now. 17 years and I'm still learning new things all the time about smash...

I don't need to use melee as an example either, smash 4 has new tech springing up every day.

Although it doesn't take an IQ of 250 to understand smash, it certainly takes more than a few weeks / months. It takes years to really and truly understand the depth of the game and adopt a good mentality towards it.

I'll be honest.

On a base level, none of the smash games are hard to understand.

They might be new to the community from the Smash 4 side, but it's not that hard to understand what is needed and done in Melee.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I'll be honest.

On a base level, none of the smash games are hard to understand.

They might be new to the community from the Smash 4 side, but it's not that hard to understand what is needed and done in Melee.

• Autolanding

• Bat dropping

• Boost grab

• Chain grab

• Crawl-sliding

• Dash attack cancelled up smash

• Dash cancel

• Dash pivot cancel

• Dash-dancing

• Drop cancel

• Edge dashing

• Glide toss

• Hilldash

• Jab cancel

• Jab reset

• Jump cancel throw

• Jump-canceled grab

• Jump-canceling

• L-canceling

• Ledge-canceling

• Lock

• Momentum cancelling

• Moonwalk

• Perfect shield

• Pivoting

• Platform cancel

• Power shield canceling

• Reverse aerial rush

• Shield break combo

• Shield platform dropping

• Short hop fast fall l-cancel

• Taunt canceling

• Team wobble

• Tech-chasing

• Up-B cancel

• Wavedash

• Zero-to-death combo

• Boomerang superjump

• Cape glide

• Chain dance

• Desynching

• Double jump cancel

• Double jump cancel counter

• Double shine

• Dragonic Reverse

• Edge Cape-cancel

• Edge-cancelled eggs

• Flight of Ganon

• Gale Guarding

• Float double aerial

• Infinite Dimensional Cape

• Jab grab

• Laser lock

• Ledgehopped double laser

• Magnet Pull

• Momentum slide

• Parry

• Quick Attack cancel

• Quickdraw

• Reverse angle boomerang

• Samus's extended grapple

• Shellshifting

• Shield break jump

• Short hop laser

• Super Jump (Yoshi)

• Super wavedash

• Tree-grabbing

• Turnip Free Pull

• Vertical spacing

• Wave zap

• Wavelanded laser

• Waveshine

• Waveshine infinite

• Wing dashing

• Wobbling

• Yoyo glitch

• Zap Jump
  
  I know you mentioned "base level"
  
  But at this point in melee's metagame, most players know of most of, if not all these techniques (even if they can't perform them)
  
  So I would argue that advanced tech in melee has been around long enough to be considered "base" knowledge.

I completely disagree with you. It is extremely hard to understand ALL these techniques, and the applications of them. Not to mention the basics of gameplay, hitboxes, and frame data.

 

[chipndip]

2015 and people are still comparing PM to Smash 4...
It's pretty clear that you are simply another ignorant Smash 4 kid so I will try to explain everything slowly and clear ok buddy?

Like you said PM was created to be "Melee 2.0" which means that is has pretty much the same concept however, PM brings a lot of intersting new things to the table like new stages (Pokemon Stadium 3, Green Hill Zone) and creative characters like Pit, Mewtwo and Meta Knight. Of course, you may or not like it but comparing it to Smash 4 is a pretty dumb move: both of them have different physics, mechanics and characters (funamentally speaking). Just because it has better graphics and more content doesn't mean it's a superior game. I strongly encourage you to get to know the entire smash scene before making such ignorant and dumb claims. This is comming for an ex PM player and current Smash 4 one.

Creative new stages like the ones Nintendo made, with mods in it.

Creative new characters like the ones Nintendo made, but with mods in them/modded into this game instead of Melee.

If he's a Sm4sh kid, you're a PM pony. Besides, PM's a mod, not a game. If you want new content, Sm4sh is a better pick. If you want Melee...just play Melee. PM's niche is being questioned because all it was was a new experience when no one wanted Brawl, but still wanted characters featured in Brawl. That role isn't exactly needed now.

 

[Gamwa]

PM / Melee / 64 are more developed in metagame and meant for competitive players. Maybe that's why you don't like them as much.

The biggest problem with comparing it to old games and their metas like this is that Sm4sh has been out less than a year. Sure, it's "casual" compared to Melee and PM because there isn't complicated tech, but even PM is called casual by the general Melee population. Literally everything always gets dragged back to how it compares to a 14 year old game because too many people can't accept things move on. It's a good game obviously, but it can't live forever, as nice as that'd be.

PM, even if they weren't tweaking characters every once in a while, still wouldn't have its meta all figured out yet. People would find things in a few years from now if they just left it as is, just like every once in a while something new in Melee is brought to light. And whenever they release PM Gold, that'll probably be it and people will have years to work with it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

• Autolanding

• Bat dropping

• Boost grab

• Chain grab

• Crawl-sliding

• Dash attack cancelled up smash

• Dash cancel

• Dash pivot cancel

• Dash-dancing

• Drop cancel

• Edge dashing

• Glide toss

• Hilldash

• Jab cancel

• Jab reset

• Jump cancel throw

• Jump-canceled grab

• Jump-canceling

• L-canceling

• Ledge-canceling

• Lock

• Momentum cancelling

• Moonwalk

• Perfect shield

• Pivoting

• Platform cancel

• Power shield canceling

• Reverse aerial rush

• Shield break combo

• Shield platform dropping

• Short hop fast fall l-cancel

• Taunt canceling

• Team wobble

• Tech-chasing

• Up-B cancel

• Wavedash

• Zero-to-death combo

• Boomerang superjump

• Cape glide

• Chain dance

• Desynching

• Double jump cancel

• Double jump cancel counter

• Double shine

• Dragonic Reverse

• Edge Cape-cancel

• Edge-cancelled eggs

• Flight of Ganon

• Gale Guarding

• Float double aerial

• Infinite Dimensional Cape

• Jab grab

• Laser lock

• Ledgehopped double laser

• Magnet Pull

• Momentum slide

• Parry

• Quick Attack cancel

• Quickdraw

• Reverse angle boomerang

• Samus's extended grapple

• Shellshifting

• Shield break jump

• Short hop laser

• Super Jump (Yoshi)

• Super wavedash

• Tree-grabbing

• Turnip Free Pull

• Vertical spacing

• Wave zap

• Wavelanded laser

• Waveshine

• Waveshine infinite

• Wing dashing

• Wobbling

• Yoyo glitch

• Zap Jump
  
  I know you mentioned "base level"
  
  But at this point in melee's metagame, most players know of most of, if not all these techniques (even if they can't perform them)
  
  So I would argue that advanced tech in melee has been around long enough to be considered "base" knowledge.

I completely disagree with you. It is extremely hard to understand ALL these techniques, and the applications of them. Not to mention the basics of gameplay, hitboxes, and frame data.

Half of those are character specific or not needed.

Taunt Cancelling is styling not really needed at all.

It's not hard to grasp most of these.

Edit: actually a lot of those overlap, dash Cancelling and dash is more or less the same concept.

 

[SilentDeadbolt]

I might piss a lot of people off by saying this but I believe Smash 4 is much closer to a fighter than any other Smash game due to its neutral game and defensive/offensive strategies. It's not to say Melee isn't more technical but Smash 4 doesn't have to be 80% offensive but it shouldn't be 80% defensive which it isn't compared to Brawl where you had to because characters had worst uphill battles in fighting games ever due to how insane Meta Knight was, BS Olimar, banana crazy Diddy and 0 to death chain grabs other characters had.

Smash 4 has those same uphill battles but it didn't felt impossible to deal with because you didn't put your self in a keep away game so you wouldn't get zero to death graingrabbed.

I don't know how you can honestly say smash 4 isn't a defensive game. Defensive options are so strong that run up shield is an approach lol. Shields regenerate absurdly fast, making shield pressure close to pointless and shield stun is nearly non existent. Not to mention it is much easier to powershield.
My opinion of smash 4 is that its a great casual game but I just don't find it exciting at a competitive level of play. Ultimately I think PPMD voices my opinion better than I can lol.

QUOTE : EG|PPMD: I do not like Super Smash Bros. 4 on a competitive level. I find it shallow and that it rewards very basic strategies that do not allow for deeper interaction with an opponent, and I also feel that even combos are jammed or not so meaningful. I personally greatly enjoy deep, intense interaction and the ability to play at a variety of speeds and still be effective. I do not believe Smash 4 has that potential, unfortunately. It can be fine for those willing to learn very specific skillsets, but I think there is much greater reward in learning the depth of Melee.

 

[J.P]

Creative new stages like the ones Nintendo made, with mods in it.

Creative new characters like the ones Nintendo made, but with mods in them/modded into this game instead of Melee.

If he's a Sm4sh kid, you're a PM pony. Besides, PM's a mod, not a game. If you want new content, Sm4sh is a better pick. If you want Melee...just play Melee. PM's niche is being questioned because all it was was a new experience when no one wanted Brawl, but still wanted characters featured in Brawl. That role isn't exactly needed now.

PM pony... really how old are you? Anyways I don't feel like arguing again but I'll just say that PM gets constant updates (sometimes too constant imo) buffing and nerfing characters constantly and getting new stages, skins among other stuff. Smash 4 is getting Lucas next month among minor buffs/nerfs. See? Both of them get new content, just because you don't know PM's community well enough it doesn't mean it's inferior to Smash 4.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It's a good game obviously, but it can't live forever, as nice as that'd be.

I predict competitive melee will be around far longer than competitive smash 4 will be.

I was the one to predict what would happen to Brawl , and suffered all the hate for it, but I was right. So I would trust my instincts on this one.

 

[Smasher-LTIMT]

Good for you. It's called having an opinion and you're entitled to one. People may disagree or agree but it changes nothing... you decide for yourself.


Ok, so you like items and characters and stages. You're a casual and there's nothing wrong with that.

PM / Melee / 64 are more developed in metagame and meant for competitive players. Maybe that's why you don't like them as much.

Also, melee players get hate from smash 4 players a lot too, it's a two sided thing. The sad thing though is that most melee players have been playing smash for A LOT longer than smash 4 players who just started getting into smash, yet act like they know everything.




You said it, it's the new generation of smash whether we like it or not.

Stop focusing on other people's negative opinions and enjoy the game is the best advice I can give. Then again judging from the way you write you can't be more than 14 or 15 so I guess other people's opinions matter more to you than they do to me / make you more upset.

It's not a crime to not enjoy playing PM or Melee. But you have to at least respect the skill required to play them at a high level even if you play casual.

I'm not necessarily a casual players but I do play casual with my bro and sis, on For Glory and in the very little tournaments I've been (only 1, being in another in 2 days) I play competitively! It is my opinion, yes. But what I'm saying people who play Melee need to stop beating me up for it..... I've been chewed out and picked on a lot of websites for that opinion, which is why I don't like the competitive side of Melee much at all..... Some people are nicer, others aren't nice at all....

 

[SilentDeadbolt]

I predict competitive melee will be around far longer than competitive smash 4 will be.

I was the one to predict what would happen to Brawl , and suffered all the hate for it, but I was right. So I would trust my instincts on this one.

I agree. Melee will survive because it's fans love it because it is melee and I hope that for this reason pm sticks around since people play it because they love it, not because it's a new smash game.

In general the majority of smash 4 players play smash 4 because it is the new game and while I'm sure they have fun playing the game, their community consists of players who enjoy the newest game in the series. Not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that. The point is that melee/pm players are going to continue playing their games regardless because they care about their particular game while smash 4 fans will probably just move on to smash 5 when it comes out.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I agree. Melee will survive because it's fans love it because it is melee and I hope that for this reason pm sticks around since people play it because they love it, not because it's a new smash game.

In general the majority of smash 4 players play smash 4 because it is the new game and while I'm sure they have fun playing the game, their community consists of players who enjoy the newest game in the series. Not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that. The point is that melee/pm players are going to continue playing their games regardless because they care about their particular game while smash 4 fans will probably just move on to smash 5 when it comes out.

Could not agree more. We have the exact same opinion on this.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't know how you can honestly say smash 4 isn't a defensive game. Defensive options are so strong that run up shield is an approach lol.

That's a thing in every game.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

That's a thing in every game.

Try it in smash 64 and see what happens.

 

[SilentDeadbolt]

That's a thing in every game.

Yeah you're right. You CAN in fact approach by running up to someone and shielding in every game. Just cause you can doesn't make it a good approach.
However it has never been anywhere close to as safe as it is in smash 4 where there are a lot fewer options that are safe on shield. Not to mention how good rolling is.
Your argument is about as valid as me saying captain falcon can dash dance in smash 4. Yes he CAN but its extremely limited in use because of how short a distance it allows him to travel.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Try it in smash 64 and see what happens.

You got me there.

64 has trash shields.

Yeah you're right. You CAN in fact approach by running up to someone and shielding in every game. Just cause you can doesn't make it a good approach.
However it has never been anywhere close to as safe as it is in smash 4 where there are a lot fewer options that are safe on shield. Not to mention how good rolling is.
Your argument is about as valid as me saying captain falcon can dash dance in smash 4. Yes he CAN but its extremely limited in use because of how short a distance it allows him to travel.

Sometimes in Melee it is, it can be a good and valid way to push forward sometimes.

Smash 4 isn't even the best for something like that, Brawl was by a long shot.

I don't think the smash series has ever gotten shields done perfectly but oh well, I'd rather take being able to do something rather than shield break combos or someone throwing whatever the hell they want on block.

 

[t!MmY]

...Something tells me you wouldn't take too kindly to someone saying "smash 4 is irrelevant"..

I'm a kind person, so I probably would take it kindly. It is, after all, just someone's opinion.

 

[SilentDeadbolt]

Yeah you're right. You CAN in fact approach by running up to someone and shielding in every game. Just cause you can doesn't make it a good approach.
However it has never been anywhere close to as safe as it is in smash 4 where there are a lot fewer options that are safe in shield. Not to mention how good rolling is.
Your argument is about as valid as me saying captain falcon can dash dance in smash 4. Yes he CAN but its extremely limited in use because of how short a distance it allows him to travel.

You got me there.

64 has trash shields.



Sometimes in Melee it is, it can be a good and valid way to push forward sometimes.

Smash 4 isn't even the best for something like that, Brawl was by a long shot.

I don't think the smash series has ever gotten shields done perfectly but oh well, I'd rather take being able to do something rather than shield break combos or someone throwing whatever the hell they want on block.

I never said it was never used in melee I simply said that its too strong an option in smash 4. Also by all means show me a matchup in melee where approaching with shield is a good idea besides samus(slow grab). You could say vs Falco but powershielding lasers is much different and harder than simply running up in shield.
I never said I wanted smash64 shields or shield break combos. I do think shield pressure should be a thing though which it pretty much isn't in smash 4. In melee you can be shield pressured but the person pressuring the shield has to be very careful as to not get shield grabbed, or wavedash oos upsmashed etc. Even marth/fox can get punished in melee if they're dumb enough to do aerials miss spaced on shield. There are definitely valid defensive options in melee. You are claiming its 80% offense and 20% defense and that just isn't the case. And your claim that smash 4 has it balanced out is sketchy at best for reasons stated above. You may be correct on shields being weaker than brawl as I don't know shield stun/damage data for both to compare but regardless saying the game is less defensive than brawl isn't really saying much.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Why can't you people stop listing the reasons why your smash game is better than all the rest and realize that, while you do have a right to your opinion as to why you play your smash game, you don't have to argue with others about why they should change their opinion and play your game instead? You can still enjoy your smash game without ranting about how it's better than all the rest. This goes for Melee, Project M, Brawl, and Smash 4 players! If someone ASKS for your reason for playing your smash game instead of theirs, go ahead and calmly explain to them why you play your game. That's fine, as long as you do so in a RESPECTABLE MANNER. And stop randomly and purposefully stating why you don't play a certain smash game in threads you KNOW are going to be populated by people who love and play that game, especially if you go into it with a "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality. It only starts flame wars and divides the community even more. All I am asking is that you enjoy your game without rubbing your (negative) opinion of other smash brothers' games in their faces.

I apologize for the heated tone of text, but this is something that's has bothered me for quite some time.

 

[Zoa]

PM is still livin'. So long as there are players it'll stay alive. A lot of big tournaments have dropped it, but there are still plenty, like Xanadu, that still host. PM 3.6 looks hype as hell.