Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[ILOVESMASH]

+
- (After playing this character for a while, I find her to be a fair bit worse at everything than Marth. Only major aspect of hers thats better is F-Smash)
+
+
+

 

[Frihetsanka]

Since characters are not ordered in tiers, does that mean votes less than +-3 are not carried over between rounds? For example, if was +2 last round, is he +2 or 0 this round?

They don't carry over, no. Eventually characters will be ordered within tiers, but for now they're not.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja is currently in the top 15 for results over the past couple of months.

He's right behind and just ahead of

you guys do not give him enough credit for the results he's gotten.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Greninja is currently in the top 15 for results over the past couple of months.

He's right behind and just ahead of

you guys do not give him enough credit for the results he's gotten.

I think Greninja has potential to be tier 2, but for now I'd like to see some more results. Tier 3 isn't bad anyway.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 I hope the no-tier-name-talk rule doesn't apply to his current votes chart that Frihetsanka has done in the past. Those were really useful, simply to see what major changes were being made to the list in the particular voting round.

Of course not, and I agree, it is very helpful.

That's all I have to say, i'm not stopping on the topic any longer.

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't disagree with him being Tier 3, but people talk about him as if his results aren't on par with the rest of the high tier characters.

The "Greninja has no results" meme should be dead.

 

[Routa]

Are people downvoting Mii Gunner because they've watched some top level Mii Gunners and thought the character just wasn't that good? When I watched top level Mii Gunners the character looked somewhat decent, certainly better than Guest 1111 Brawler and Swordfighter.

Also, I think it's about time we had some discussion about Palutena. She keeps moving up and down, it would be interesting to see what proponents of her moving down and promonents of her staying mid tier would have to say.

I have yet to hear any reasoning for the downvotes for Gunner.

As for Palutena... Well some of us (like myself) don't consider her to deserve to be in a tier with the likes of Link, Bowser or Shulk who actually have a versatile kit of tools. It is hard to consider a character with some moves that have next to no use due to how situational and bad they are in comparison to the tools of other characters. I mean yes Palutena has some amazing moves like Bair, but being limited to couple of moves makes the character linear and predictable. I mean hell Gunner is claimed to be linear, but at least he can use his whole moveset (wii don't talk about Dair). Add to that the character has gained results in one continent makes you wonder if the character really any good. I don't want to be the guy who says this, but might this have to do with unfamiliar MU? I mean yes Palutena players have taken stocks from top players, but it is not like the character is super common. I mean Palutena would not be the only one. Same goes for Brawler. Add to that the huge skill differences between players and you might see some random characters taking names with characters like Palutena, Zelda and even Jigglypuff. I simply cannot see a character with a half of a moveset and barely results outside the states to be within a same tier as the likes of Link.

I will make a post about Gunner being the best Mii competitive game in mind (both in 1111 and XXXX form) later in the CCI thread once I got the time and willpower.

Here are my votes based around the current state of the list:
-
+
+
+
-
I might change votes later.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

UPDATED (finally)

Looks like we finally have another tier. Whether we just want a few characters in there, or need to shift almost a whole tier up, we have plenty of time to do so; I won't be stopping this kind of voting yet (for reference, we're probably about half way there).

I was thinking of changing the rules to make it we have 3 votes each, now that we're a fair way into it, but with the creation of this new tier, I think I'll keep 5 votes per voter for a fair few rounds more.

Spoiler: Rules

• You have 5 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 5 different characters.
• Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
• Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

Spoiler: Current List

Version 4.0.7 - Tiers are not named, and characters not ranked within tiers.

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:

For now, my votes are to get some characters into that tier with Diddy and Sheik; I feel a lot of the characters in the 3rd tier should move into the 2nd tier, but they shouldn't be with the likes of the characters in said tier, hence, me trying to move some (most) of them up, to create the correct room.

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

My votes:
+
+
+
-
+

EDIT: I changed my lucario Upvote to a bowser junior downvote

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

As for Palutena... Well some of us (like myself) don't consider her to deserve to be in a tier with the likes of Link, Bowser or Shulk who actually have a versatile kit of tools. It is hard to consider a character with some moves that have next to no use due to how situational and bad they are in comparison to the tools of other characters. I mean yes Palutena has some amazing moves like Bair, but being limited to couple of moves makes the character linear and predictable. I mean hell Gunner is claimed to be linear, but at least he can use his whole moveset (wii don't talk about Dair). Add to that the character has gained results in one continent makes you wonder if the character really any good. I don't want to be the guy who says this, but might this have to do with unfamiliar MU? I mean yes Palutena players have taken stocks from top players, but it is not like the character is super common. I mean Palutena would not be the only one. Same goes for Brawler. Add to that the huge skill differences between players and you might see some random characters taking names with characters like Palutena, Zelda and even Jigglypuff. I simply cannot see a character with a half of a moveset and barely results outside the states to be within a same tier as the likes of Link.

The reason I want Palutena to stay in her tier, and what I believe to be other people's reasoning as well, is that she might have "half of a moveset", but the moves she has are quite good. Jab, dash attack, her throws (especially D-throw), F-air, B-air, U-air, and arguably Warp are some of the best moves of their type, which seem to make up for her other moves being bad. Think about it like this: If the rest of her moveset were as good as her viable moves, she would be undeniably high tier. Compare this to the other characters you mentioned, who don't have quite as noteworthy moves (except Gunner F-air) even though their whole moveset is usable, and it seems pretty even. She may be more predictable in what moves she will use, but to compensate, the moves that she will throw out are fantastic and hard to counter (especially jab and U-air). Add to this her equal if not superior representation and results to the characters you mentioned, and you have a character who deserves no lower than tier 5 out of 7.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I don't understand something. Is the last tier bottom tier or low tier right now (And the tier above it low tier or low mid)?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't understand something. Is the last tier bottom tier or low tier right now (And the tier above it low tier or low mid)?

There are no official tiers right now, so you decide for yourself. Personally I consider tier 6 (the tier above the last tier) to be low-mid and tier 7 to be low tier. Tier 5 is the starting tier, thus mid tier, and it seems reasonable to jump from mid to low-mid. You could just consider tier 7 low/bottom tier I suppose. At this point I don't really know if there's much difference between low and bottom (it probably depends how you define low tier). Either way there are no official tiers (technically 1-7 are the official names, but that's not saying much), so you decide for yourself what the tiers are, I suppose.

Question to people: What has Samus been doing lately that makes you think she should be higher than she is now? Have I missed something? Last I checked she had very little representation or results, and her theory wasn't all that spectacular either.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Question to people: What has Samus been doing lately that makes you think she should be higher than she is now? Have I missed something? Last I checked she had very little representation or results, and her theory wasn't all that spectacular either.

Well, in fairness, Samus has a larger playerbase than a lot of the characters around and above her, such as more notable players using her than characters like Doc, Wii Fit Trainer etc. Samus's theory is better than you're giving credit for, which is understandable to be fair, because a lot of people like to class her as a projectile user, when in reality, she's got a very effective bait, hit and run game, courtesy of her great Zair (arguably one of the best in the game), which converts into many things. Her hit and run game works well because of how damaging her combo game can be. She has a fair few kill confirms off of multiple moves, and has shield break combos too. She also has a notable niche in having a decent MU with Bayonetta, better than almost all the characters around her.

Samus is held back by her lackluster CQC game, as well as her relative trouble fending off against juggles and getting out of them. You give Samus the distance she needs, and it can be hard to get her back where you want her.

Effectively, Samus has a lot of things other characters around her just don't have, or just does better than them at said areas.

Samus isn't really any higher than she is now though. If it were up to me, I think being at the top of the tier she is in now would be perfect. Either that, or near the bottom of the next tier up.

 

[Deleted member]

Samus hasn't been doing exactly well right now. Jonny Westside has been getting pretty underwhelming results as of late, Afro does does put the work in EU but that's really it. She's better than a good amount of low tiers though, just undertuned and flawed in key areas that holds her back from being actually relevant in the meta.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Samus hasn't been doing exactly well right now. Jonny Westside has been getting pretty underwhelming results as of late, Afro does does put the work in EU but that's really it. She's better than a good amount of low tiers though, just undertuned and flawed in key areas that holds her back from being actually relevant in the meta.

To be fair, you could use that argument about many of the characters around Samus, including a fair few above her. Characters i'd include in this would be characters like Pac Man, Game and Watch, Doc, Wii Fit, Roy, Palutena.

I'd go as far to say Shulk's included in that too; a niche character that lacks the real tools to stand out, compete, and stay relevant at top level. He also has the same amount of top 16 results in 1.1.6 as Samus, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

I also want to say a short piece on , mainly to address some of the downvotes he's gotten. Falcon does not deserve to move down, at all. Captain Falcon has the 11th best top 16 results. The meme lord does have his flaws, such as an exploitable recovery, and his relative weight makes him quite easy to combo, but I constantly see everywhere players jump straight on "recovery" and instantly use that as a way to knock him down. Shall we just ignore his fantastic dash grab? Shall we just ignore he has top 3 ground movement? Shall we just ignore his pretty safe neutral (courtesy of the last two points, as well as a great spacing move in Back Air)? Shall we just ignore his incredibly damaging combo game and KO confirms? It's not like his reward for winning neutral exchanges is poor either, often leading into a heavy combo, or in some cases a 50/50 read that will end your stock.

I blame ZeRo for the sudden hate on Falcon. A character with the current 11th best top 16 results and the 3rd best results total overall since the Wii U version released is NOT any lower than high tier. Ok, past patches might not be relevant now, but even going just as far back as the release of 1.1.6, Falcon still has the 5th best overall results total in patch 1.1.6. ZeRo was heavily underplaying Falcon's strengths, which is surprising, because he plays the character himself (and even jokingly considers himself the best player of the character on occasion).

Falcon is a big offender of the Cloud/Mario syndrome; characters that are relatively simple to pick up, but many players do not play them to their full potential. For Glory is the biggest reason why Cloud and Falcon get **** upon, for this exact reason. Many players play these types of people. You play a Falcon that knows what he's doing, and face me with a straight face and tell me this character is not high tier. Falcon places within the top 10 of majors, when characters like Pikachu, Ryu, Ness, and heck, even odd characters that people want to up vote in his place, such as Peach and DK, don't.

It just completely boggles my mind that people want to downvote this character. Open your eyes and top looking at things in a vaccum. Look at everything this character can do, and what he's achieved.

Falcon is high tier.

 

[Deleted member]

To be fair, you could use that argument about many of the characters around Samus, including a fair few above her. Characters i'd include in this would be characters like Pac Man, Game and Watch, Doc, Wii Fit, Roy, Palutena.

I'd go as far to say Shulk's included in that too; a niche character that lacks the real tools to stand out, compete, and stay relevant at top level. He also has the same amount of top 16 results in 1.1.6 as Samus, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

I also want to say a short piece on , mainly to address some of the downvotes he's gotten. Falcon does not deserve to move down, at all. Captain Falcon has the 11th best top 16 results. The meme lord does have his flaws, such as an exploitable recovery, and his relative weight makes him quite easy to combo, but I constantly see everywhere players jump straight on "recovery" and instantly use that as a way to knock him down. Shall we just ignore his fantastic dash grab? Shall we just ignore he has top 3 ground movement? Shall we just ignore his pretty safe neutral (courtesy of the last two points, as well as a great spacing move in Back Air)? Shall we just ignore his incredibly damaging combo game and KO confirms? It's not like his reward for winning neutral exchanges is poor either, often leading into a heavy combo, or in some cases a 50/50 read that will end your stock.

I blame ZeRo for the sudden hate on Falcon. A character with the current 11th best top 16 results and the 3rd best results total overall since the Wii U version released is NOT any lower than high tier. Ok, past patches might not be relevant now, but even going just as far back as the release of 1.1.6, Falcon still has the 5th best overall results total in patch 1.1.6. ZeRo was heavily underplaying Falcon's strengths, which is surprising, because he plays the character himself (and even jokingly considers himself the best player of the character on occasion).

Falcon is a big offender of the Cloud/Mario syndrome; the character is relatively simple to pick up, but many players do not play them to their full potential. For Glory is the biggest reason why Cloud and Falcon get **** upon, for this exact reason. You play a Falcon that knows what he's doing; certainly not mid tier. Falcon places within the top 10 of majors, when characters like Pikachu, Ryu, Ness, and heck, even odd characters that people want to up vote in his place, such as Peach and DK, don't.

It just completely boggles my mind that people want to downvote this character. Open your eyes and top looking at things in a vaccum. Look at everything this character can do, and what he's achieved.

Falcon is high tier.

I mean, Palutena and G&W tend to place high at majors. Wii Fit, Samus, Pac-Man and Doc do not.

If anything, Shulk's tournament results are pretty decent overall.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'll just assume the last tier rn is low tier and not bottom tier.

+lol
-Easily low tier due to his crippling flaws
-Can we start getiing a bottom tier in plz?
-I wish people would just admit Marth has no chance of being in high tier already ugh
-^

 

[MrGameguycolor]

"People underrate this character."

What's new...



Anyway, here's my votes for the same four characters:

+
+
+
+

This time I'll remember to post my reasons later.

 

[TDK]

-I wish people would just admit Marth has no chance of being in high tier already ugh

- 7th at MomoCon 2016
- 9th at KTAR XVIII
- 9th at APEX 2016
- 13th at EVO 2016 (The biggest smash 4 tournament of all time)
- 9th at 2GGT: KTAR Saga
- 5th at Endgame
- 9th at Shine 2016
- 13th at Collision XIV
- 1st at Glitch 2
- 9th at The Big House 6

And that's just one player. Let's put this into perspective a bit:


- 9th at EVO 2016


- 5th at Low Tier City 4
- 2nd at Shine 2016


- 4th at 2GGT: Mexico Saga
- 3rd at Low Tier City 4
- 5th at CEO 2016
- 9th at Umebura SAT
- 13th at The Big House 6

Your "theory" on how Marth is an overhyped mid-tier doesn't hold water when you look at the laundry list of results and wins that he has to his name, and his results actually border on top tier. I'm not going to stop you from downvoting Marth, but I will say that you can't just ignore how much better Marth is doing than a lot of the other high tiers.

 

[Bowserboy3]

-I wish people would just admit Marth has no chance of being in high tier already ugh

So what if I've taken the bait, but my big argument I wrote about Captain Falcon fits in here suprisingly well.

How is a character that places within the top 16 of majors CONSISTENTLY not high tier?

"no chance of being high tier"? How the f*** do you think characters get ranked so highly? Do you think we just pick them out of a hat and say "oh, he's high tier". No, and the biggest factor into why characters get ranked so highly is usually how many reaults they have, and Marth has them by the bucket full. A very impressive MU spread, having notable MU's with the rest of the top tiers (Cloud, Mario, Rosalina, and have even heard whispers of him doing good against Bayonetta too) that other characters lack are reasons why Marth is able to get these kinds of results, and why he is high tier.

What strikes me as utterly ridiculous is the way you worded your reasoning is it makes it sound like you somehow know more about the character than literally every other player, including the players that use the character. The fact that many, many top players also believe Marth is high tier says something about your own opinion, as well...

Even then, the rest of your votes make me question your actual knowledge on competitive play, or the game in general.

- Downvotes on the basis of him having "crippling flaws", but completely ignores the fact that this character has arguably the best ground game an options in the entire game, as well top 3 grounded movement.

- Then for some strange reason upvotes , despite him having no reasons what-so-ever to be much higher; 41st in terms of top 16 results, as well as ranking in 47th place for overall results total in 1.1.6. Poor ground options, and the worst grab in the game are amongst reasons why Pac Man has no real reason to be up-voted. What's more, you topped this vote off with a ridiculous quote of "lol", as if to insinuate that all of us here are ridiculous for not sharing the same opinion as you. Stop being so passively aggressive.

And stop being so one dimensional and delusional about characters and look at things as a whole. It'd be unfair for me to not include your votes, but I will admit that even though others have said it, it has crossed my mind before.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Regarding Marth and Lucina, my suggestion: Keep Lucina in tier 3, move Marth up to tier 2. As others have already mentioned, Marth's results are pretty impressive. ZeRo even put Marth in top tier (which I think is a bit much), and Dabuz put Marth at 10th place. I think that's a bit much, but Upper High tier (or whatever you want to call tier 2) seems fitting for Marth. Lucina seem similar to many characters that belong in tier 3: Good theory but the results aren't as great. She is starting to get some results, with Nairo, for instance.

 

[Wintermelon43]

- 7th at MomoCon 2016
- 9th at KTAR XVIII
- 9th at APEX 2016
- 13th at EVO 2016 (The biggest smash 4 tournament of all time)
- 9th at 2GGT: KTAR Saga
- 5th at Endgame
- 9th at Shine 2016
- 13th at Collision XIV
- 1st at Glitch 2
- 9th at The Big House 6

And that's just one player. Let's put this into perspective a bit:


- 9th at EVO 2016


- 5th at Low Tier City 4
- 2nd at Shine 2016


- 4th at 2GGT: Mexico Saga
- 3rd at Low Tier City 4
- 5th at CEO 2016
- 9th at Umebura SAT
- 13th at The Big House 6

Your "theory" on how Marth is an overhyped mid-tier doesn't hold water when you look at the laundry list of results and wins that he has to his name, and his results actually border on top tier. I'm not going to stop you from downvoting Marth, but I will say that you can't just ignore how much better Marth is doing than a lot of the other high tiers.

That's because Marth gets amazing results (Probably because of people loving him in melee). In theory/Matchup spread he is mid tier (Not upper) or just barely in upper mid, but is high tier in results, putting him in upper mid.

So what if I've taken the bait, but my big argument I wrote about Captain Falcon fits in here suprisingly well.

How is a character that places within the top 16 of majors CONSISTENTLY not high tier?

"no chance of being high tier"? How the f*** do you think characters get ranked so highly? Do you think we just pick them out of a hat and say "oh, he's high tier". No, and the biggest factor into why characters get ranked so highly is usually how many reaults they have, and Marth has them by the bucket full. A very impressive MU spread, having notable MU's with the rest of the top tiers (Cloud, Mario, Rosalina, and have even heard whispers of him doing good against Bayonetta too) that other characters lack are reasons why Marth is able to get these kinds of results, and why he is high tier.

What strikes me as utterly ridiculous is the way you worded your reasoning is it makes it sound like you somehow know more about the character than literally every other player, including the players that use the character. The fact that many, many top players also believe Marth is high tier says something about your own opinion, as well...

Even then, the rest of your votes make me question your actual knowledge on competitive play, or the game in general.

- Downvotes on the basis of him having "crippling flaws", but completely ignores the fact that this character has arguably the best ground game an options in the entire game, as well top 3 grounded movement.

- Then for some strange reason upvotes , despite him having no reasons what-so-ever to be much higher; 41st in terms of top 16 results, as well as ranking in 47th place for overall results total in 1.1.6. Poor ground options, and the worst grab in the game are amongst reasons why Pac Man has no real reason to be up-voted. What's more, you topped this vote off with a ridiculous quote of "lol", as if to insinuate that all of us here are ridiculous for not sharing the same opinion as you. Stop being so passively aggressive.

Stop being so one dimensional and delusional about characters and look at things as a whole. It'd be unfair for me to not include your votes, but I will admit that even though others have said it, it has crossed my mind before.

They still can't be in high tier because of how he is in theory and his matchup spread.

Little Mac's great ground game doesn't make up for his bad recovery and almost complete lack of air game. He can litertaly be dominating you the entire first stock but then get knocked off stage and lose the first stock. It's rediculous. The big flaws pretty much doom him to always stay in at least low tier.

As for Pac-Man, Pac-Man is the opposite of Marth; Bad results but great matchup spread and good theory. Pac-Man's lack of results is worse than Marth's pretty bad matchup spread though, so he's still worse than Marcina at least. Pac-Man has enough good strengths, such as a pretty good matchup spread and good projectiles, to be above low mid for sure.

 

[TDK]

That's because Marth gets amazing results (Probably because of people loving him in melee). In theory/Matchup spread he is mid tier (Not upper) or just barely in upper mid, but is high tier in results, putting him in upper mid.

I could make a comprehensive argument on how is the best character in the game and throw around buzzwords like "theory" "potential" "matchup spread" and it'd have about as much substance as your arguments for why isn't a high tier and be equally as wrong.

Also, by brushing off results you're essentially trying to tell us to make an accurate tier list without playing the game at all. If that's the case, then why don't I upvote Ganon? If we're going to ignore results why shouldn't he be high tier? With enough buzzwords and as little explanation as possible you can justify anything, so why shouldn't I do that?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I could make a comprehensive argument on how is the best character in the game and throw around buzzwords like "theory" "potential" "matchup spread" and it'd have about as much substance as your arguments for why isn't a high tier and be equally as wrong.

Also, by brushing off results you're essentially trying to tell us to make an accurate tier list without playing the game at all. If that's the case, then why don't I upvote Ganon? If we're going to ignore results why shouldn't he be high tier? With enough buzzwords and as little explanation as possible you can justify anything, so why shouldn't I do that?

Ganon's theory, potential, and matchup spread are all crap so he still couldn't be the best lol.

I'm not brushing off results either, Marth would be mid tier and not upper mid imo if he had few results.

 

[TDK]

Ganon's theory, potential, and matchup spread are all crap so he still couldn't be the best lol.

I'm just doing what you're doing. As long as I don't actually explain anything and expect people to agree with me I can just keep on doing it, right?

I'm not brushing off results either, Marth would be mid tier and not upper mid imo if he had few results.

Results back theory, not the other way around. Should we move and more down to low-mid just so you can have a mid-tier marth that's at least somewhat accurate?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm just doing what you're doing. As long as I don't actually explain anything and expect people to agree with me I can just keep on doing it, right?

Results back theory, not the other way around. Should we move and more down to low-mid just so you can have a mid-tier marth that's at least somewhat accurate?

lol plz. If you moved all of them to low mid, Marth would need to be placed in low tier to be accurate.

 

[TDK]

lol plz. If you moved all of them to low mid, Marth would need to be placed in low tier to be accurate.

Refer to my previous post to explain how marth's results are borderline Top tier:

- 7th at MomoCon 2016
- 9th at KTAR XVIII
- 9th at APEX 2016
- 13th at EVO 2016 (The biggest smash 4 tournament of all time)
- 9th at 2GGT: KTAR Saga
- 5th at Endgame
- 9th at Shine 2016
- 13th at Collision XIV
- 1st at Glitch 2
- 9th at The Big House 6

And that's just one player. Let's put this into perspective a bit:


- 9th at EVO 2016


- 5th at Low Tier City 4
- 2nd at Shine 2016


- 4th at 2GGT: Mexico Saga
- 3rd at Low Tier City 4
- 5th at CEO 2016
- 9th at Umebura SAT
- 13th at The Big House 6

Your "theory" on how Marth is an overhyped mid-tier doesn't hold water when you look at the laundry list of results and wins that he has to his name, and his results actually border on top tier. I'm not going to stop you from downvoting Marth, but I will say that you can't just ignore how much better Marth is doing than a lot of the other high tiers.

As of this post, I will now be ignoring you to prevent myself from tearing out my hair and leaving this thread in disgust, and I'd advise others to do the same. Cheers!

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Winter, you've done it again.

Congrats on making this thread take the bait YET AGAIN!

continues eating popcorn

 

[Wintermelon43]

Winter, you've done it again.

Congrats on making this thread take the bait YET AGAIN!

continues eating popcorn

lol.
Well it isn't bait but still lol.

 

[Frihetsanka]

To sum up this discussion:

Wintermelon43: "Marth doesn't have the MU chart or theory to be high tier."

Others: "Marth's results prove that he's high tier".

I think Wintermelon43 is correct in his views that MU charts and theory are more important than results. Let's say ZeRo picked up Kirby and got some great results with him. Would that make Kirby high tier? No, it would be ZeRo carrying the character. So if I understand Wintermelon43 correctly, Marth isn't actually that great, but he's getting carried by great character.

Now, I think that's incorrect, I do think Marth is a great character, but I think that should clear things up a bit (assuming I understood Wintermelon43 correctly).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

+lol
^

I wish people would just admit Pac-Man has no chance of being any higher than low mid already ugh

 

[Wintermelon43]

I wish people would just admit Pac-Man has no chance of being any higher than low mid already ugh

lol plz

 

[Frihetsanka]

lol plz. If you moved all of them to low mid, Marth would need to be placed in low tier to be accurate.

lol.
Well it isn't bait but still lol.

lol plz

If you don't want people to think you're trolling you might want to post more substantial posts. None of that is very constructive, nor polite.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

If you don't want people to think you're trolling you might want to post more substantial posts. None of that is very constructive, nor polite.

we always try and have him explain, and when we debunk them, he repeats it again. Like ok yeah opinions, but at least have viable reasons that are not easily counterable.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If you don't want people to think you're trolling you might want to post more substantial posts. None of that is very constructive, nor polite.

So what you're telling me to do is take like 5 or so hours if not more to make a decent argument only for it to make absoluty no differance at all.....

I'm not bothering, I don't have time to do it, espicially when it doesn't make any differance

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So what you're telling me to do is take like 5 or so hours if not more to make a decent argument only for it to make absoluty no differance at all.....

I'm not bothering, I don't have time to do it, espicially when it doesn't make any differance

From my knowledge your previous arguments seem to have been created in maybe 10 minutes. People would only disregard a proper explanation/MU chart if it was poorly made.

 

[Wintermelon43]

From my knowledge your previous arguments seem to have been created in maybe 10 minutes. People would only disregard a proper explanation/MU chart if it was poorly made.

Of course they were made in 10 minutes, as I said, I'm not bothering to explain a lot by taking over 5 hours only for it to do absoluty nothing whatsoever.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't want to be rude, but this is derailing the thread, and it's not really helping your case. What you're basically saying is that it doesn't matter what you say, we would still not accept it. This implies one of two things (or perhaps both): #1: That you believe that we aren't willing to listen to your arguments, whether they are strong or not. Or #2: That you don't believe that your arguments are very strong.

Let's drop it. Keep downvoting Marth if you wish. I suggest you don't, but it's your choice. Based on what I've read, I highly doubt anything we'd say would change your mind. We would listen to your arguments, but you don't seem to be willing to listen to our arguments, or debunk them (more than a broad "his theory isn't very bad).

I hope I didn't misrepresent you or your point of view. If you have any objections, feel free to point them out. After that, let's move on, shall we?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I don't want to be rude, but this is derailing the thread, and it's not really helping your case. What you're basically saying is that it doesn't matter what you say, we would still not accept it. This implies one of two things (or perhaps both): #1: That you believe that we aren't willing to listen to your arguments, whether they are strong or not. Or #2: That you don't believe that your arguments are very strong.

Let's drop it. Keep downvoting Marth if you wish. I suggest you don't, but it's your choice. Based on what I've read, I highly doubt anything we'd say would change your mind. We would listen to your arguments, but you don't seem to be willing to listen to our arguments, or debunk them (more than a broad "his theory isn't very bad).

I hope I didn't misrepresent you or your point of view. If you have any objections, feel free to point them out. After that, let's move on, shall we?

I believe #1 is the case.

Also, I do listen to other's arguments, but if it's wrong, it won't change my mind, and so far it has.

But yea, this is derailing the thread, let's move on

 

[Bowserboy3]

OK then, Wintermelon43 , so you're saying that we aren't willing to listen to your opinions. No, what has happened is, we have listened to your opinion (on multiple occasion now), and not only listened to it, but given you fact, data, and result as to why this opinion is incorrect. We don't just see your opinion and instantly say "nope, wrong - disregard". We have to listen to your opinion to give solid counter arguments. This is how a basic discussion works, you know.

The fact of the matter, Wintermelon, is that you are completely disregarding and refusing to believe what makes a character good, as well as refusing to take into account outright facts. It completely boggles my mind how you can stand in the face of Marth's results, representation, MU spread and "theory" and call them all bad, or disregard them. You harp on about MU spreads and "theory" as if they are bad, or against Marth, when in reality, Marth's MU spread and theory are quite strong.

As far as MU's go, with top tiers, Marth struggles with just a mere two of them (being Sheik and Sonic). These MU's are far from losing mind, as Marth's multiple players have proven on multiple occasion that these MU's are do-able (essentially, they've won many a time, despite the MU being bad). With the rest of the top tiers, Marth goes even. With a few of the top tiers, Marth has the ability to pose a threat to them, being Cloud, Mario and Rosalina. A character with this kind of MU spreads with the top tiers is not a mid tier character; a mid tier character would have no real advantages against the top tiers, and have more losing MU's. A character that fits this bill is a character like DK, Luigi etc.

Theory is a buzzword, and a very bad thing to use when trying to rank a character. It's something I try to refrain from using when ranking a character. If we used theory as a basis for ranking characters, Ryu would be top tier (this is likely the reason Ryu was considered top 5 for a lot of the first 6 months of his release), but that aside, Marth's theory is still good. Marth has one tool that instantly bolsters his theory right up, and that tool alone is his Jab 1. This move is essentially Diddy's Down Tilt, but has more range, is disjointed, leads into more moves, and also acts as an anti-air. The reason this move works so well in his theory is because Marth's mobility is strong, as well as him having some great spacing moves in Down Tilt, Forward Tilt and Neutral Air, allowing him to safely force the opponents hand to make use of this Jab 1. Marth is also one of the best edgeguarders and ledge trappers in the entire game, and this only works hand in hand with his spacing game; force and push somebody to the ledge, and keep them there. If Marth could not do this, his theory would be lacklustre, and your point about theory would hold a little weight, but it just doesn't.

I'm not interested in your opinion anymore; at this point you're essentially a troll, and you make it un-fun to be here. It would be best for me if I just block you from here on out, which is what I will be doing. I'll be counting your votes for this round, but as of next round, I don't expect to see you anywhere around these boards (I've never actually blocked anybody before, so I'm unsure whether I will even see any more posts from you, I'd prefer if I didn't), and if I am somehow able to see your posts, I won't be acknowledging them, wherever it may be. I'm friends with you on Discord, and talking about general stuff or other games is absolutely fine, and don't want this to harm that, but the topic of Smash, it's best for me to just blank you.

Sorry it's had to come to this, but in a sense, I'm supposed to be running this, and I can't let you rile me up like this every time. This is for the best.

(Edit: it seems I can't see Wintermelon43's posts, so remember than when tallying votes in the future Frihetsanka )

Edit: Retracting everything I said about Wintermelon43 there; we talked it over and we're good. Frihetsanka , just be aware that everything should be normal now.

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As a way to try and push things back to normal, it seems would be going up without my up vote anyway, so I changed it to a upvote/countervote.

 

[Dusk Pit]

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