New Smash 4 Movement Option: Corner Dash Pivot Slide

[StarBot]

Take that, Melee fanboys.

Oh boy here we go once more...

 

[Katakiri]

Shell-Shifting? It that you?

 

[BestTeaMaker]

I feel like this should be called the Pivot Slide. Great tech, nonetheless.

 

[smashbroskilla]

I'm sure everyone cares.



FailFish

Take your own advice. Fail fish.

Why so? O.o

It's limited to which cast can use certain parts of the tech or not. There are two corners on final d stages. Sakurai's vision of competetive online in for glory sucks big time. In the video it's a person using Mario on Battlefield. You'll never see battlefield online in for glory.

 

[ChefKef]

So two questions. can you do an usmash with it? Also, does anyone have an idea on how this would even work? did they just take the roller blades from X and Y and say "Lets put the dash-off in Smash 4."?

 

[LeWall]

Lol, again a Diddy Kong buff.

Is that a joke?

Its funny cause at first it was like: Yes some marth and DK buff! saw Diddy, we're doomed. Playing sm4sh just amazing, every week, new technology.

 

[LimitCrown]

What you're saying is factually false. Wavedashing was in the game, given a name by the development team, and has been recognized as a legit thing that turned into more than it was expected to be.

If you are saying it was 'never intended' you are wrong. End of story.

Please stop having this argument. Thanks.

Can you give any proof that the exploit was given a name by the development team or that it was intended?

 

[KrymsonSkyz]

Sakurai came to an impasse, and that means he was compelled to choose. To choose to do nothing is to allow its existence, and therefore to intend its presence in the game. No matter what duress one is placed under one must accept all inevitable consequences of the actions insofar as they know.
It is logically necessary, for when Sakurai chose to 'do nothing' he chose to deliberately leave it in the game, therefore to intend its existence, regardless of any possible dislike he had of it. Therefore, it, at some point, was intended.
To say otherwise is implicitly contradictory, therefore false.
This isn't an argument about wavedashing, this is simple logic, the principles of causation and contradiction, and praxeology.
Nobody 'does nothing' when they choose to 'do nothing' in the sense that by choosing they accept all the consequences they know will logically come from their 'inaction' (which is really action).

*retracted statement*

 

[StarBot]

Sakurai came to an impasse, and that means he was compelled to choose. To choose to do nothing is to allow its existence, and therefore to intend its presence in the game. No matter what duress one is placed under one must accept all inevitable consequences of the actions insofar as they know.
It is logically necessary, for when Sakurai chose to 'do nothing' he chose to deliberately leave it in the game, therefore to intend its existence, regardless of any possible dislike he had of it. Therefore, it, at some point, was intended.
To say otherwise is implicitly contradictory, therefore false.
This isn't an argument about wavedashing, this is simple logic, the principles of causation and contradiction, and praxeology.
Nobody 'does nothing' when they choose to 'do nothing' in the sense that by choosing they accept all the consequences they know will logically come from their 'inaction' (which is really action).

TL;DR

 

[LimitCrown]

Sakurai came to an impasse, and that means he was compelled to choose. To choose to do nothing is to allow its existence, and therefore to intend its presence in the game. No matter what duress one is placed under one must accept all inevitable consequences of the actions insofar as they know.
It is logically necessary, for when Sakurai chose to 'do nothing' he chose to deliberately leave it in the game, therefore to intend its existence, regardless of any possible dislike he had of it. Therefore, it, at some point, was intended.
To say otherwise is implicitly contradictory, therefore false.
This isn't an argument about wavedashing, this is simple logic, the principles of causation and contradiction, and praxeology.
Nobody 'does nothing' when they choose to 'do nothing' in the sense that by choosing they accept all the consequences they know will logically come from their 'inaction' (which is really action).

The event that Sakurai was aware of the existence of wavedashing during development and the statement that wavedashing was an exploit that was never intended to be in the game are not mutually exclusive, contrary to what you claim.

 

[Cthulhu_MD]

Can we all just stop talking about Melee and wavedashing? This is has nothing to do with Smash 4 or the video. It's annoying how there's an argument when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

[Jaedrik]

I can smell the pretentiousness from this post. It's like you're trying hard to prove you're intelligent. You know you can get a point across in layman's terms.

I thought it was clear enough. I'm not trying to prove anything other than it's logically impossible to call it that stuff.
Also Krymson it's me, bro, Jaedrik, I thought we loved eachother

The event that Sakurai was aware of the existence of wavedashing during development and the statement that wavedashing was an exploit that was never intended to be in the game are not mutually exclusive, contrary to what you claim.

Yet I have proven them to be so.

Look, we agree that Sakurai deliberately chose to leave it in, correct? Do we also agree that choosing to let something exist means that one intends to let it exist? Then, we must agree that Sakurai intended for its existence at some point. Now, if you mean before that point or at some vague time after that point (which we have no indication of) where he regretted letting it exist, then you're right, but you use the word 'never'.
Then, if we agree on all that, can we agree that a developer intended mechanic means that it's not an exploit? Then it's not an exploit.

 

[Ganreizu]

Take your own advice. Fail fish.

I see you know what advice looks like.

 

[LimitCrown]

Look, we agree that Sakurai deliberately chose to leave it in, correct? Do we also agree that choosing to let something exist means that one intends to let it exist?

Choosing to let something exist doesn't mean that you intended it to exist in the first place. You're basically relying on a false dichotomy in order to support your argument. Also, your previous post had unnecessary verbiage.

 

[Jaedrik]

Choosing to let something exist doesn't mean that you intended it to exist in the first place. You're basically relying on a false dichotomy in order to support your argument. Also, your previous post had unnecessary verbiage.

You seem to have ignored the second part:

Then, we must agree that Sakurai intended for its existence at some point. Now, if you mean before that point or at some vague time after that point (which we have no indication of) where he regretted letting it exist, then you're right, but you use the word 'never'.

Edit: I was wrong when I said "which we have no indication of".

 

[ATH_]

HOLY **** THE NEW WAVEDASHING AMIRITE?
No, lol. It's not but this is neat! Is it possible to do this directly out of a getup from the stage? That would be sick.
It's easy to do, and looks fun! Loving these new finds.

 

[KrymsonSkyz]

I thought it was clear enough. I'm not trying to prove anything other than it's logically impossible to call it that stuff.
Also Krymson it's me, bro, Jaedrik, I thought we loved eachother
Yet I have proven them to be so.

Look, we agree that Sakurai deliberately chose to leave it in, correct? Do we also agree that choosing to let something exist means that one intends to let it exist? Then, we must agree that Sakurai intended for its existence at some point. Now, if you mean before that point or at some vague time after that point (which we have no indication of) where he regretted letting it exist, then you're right, but you use the word 'never'.
Then, if we agree on all that, can we agree that a developer intended mechanic means that it's not an exploit? Then it's not an exploit.

OH NO MY BOY JAEDRIK </3

DUDE I FEEL SO BAD

 

[Jaedrik]

OH NO MY BOY JAEDRIK </3

DUDE I FEEL SO BAD

NO IT'S OK DON'T FEEL BAD
WE ALL MAKE STEAKS SOMETIMES
<3 YOU
Yes, I need to work on concision, but I assure you my heart is in the right place! :D

 

[Mythra]

Is good to see more techniques to improve movement and spacing.
But I still think that both PP ans CDPS are going to be hard to pull on the 3DS because the controllers, and that factor will create differences between the metagames of both versions.

 

[Player -0]

What you're saying is factually false. Wavedashing was in the game, given a name by the development team, and has been recognized as a legit thing that turned into more than it was expected to be.

If you are saying it was 'never intended' you are wrong. End of story.

Please stop having this argument. Thanks.

What was the original name? Just curious.

 

[Elite Smasher]

Okay is it just me, or was that one of the best remixes ever!?

 

[TimLikesTrains]

Looks extremely punishable. Oh let me just slide into my enemy. Surely they wont expect an attack or anything.

 

[BBC7]

This is easy until you try to perform it with Mr. Game & Watch. It's not like it's worth it for him anyways, his slide is pretty poor anyways and I think his Jab may not be able to benefit from this.

EDIT: Nevermind, timing just seems to be different. Still, he doesn't slide much and Jab just stops his slide. In fact, I'm not even sure if his D-Smash works either

 

[hype machine]

I

Looks extremely punishable. Oh let me just slide into my enemy. Surely they wont expect an attack or anything.

Yea it acctually is very punishable don't know why everyone is going crazy about it

 

[LimitCrown]

You seem to have ignored the second part: Edit: I was wrong when I said "which we have no indication of".

That is only what you supposed and there isn't any proof that Sakurai intended for wavedashing to be in the game at any point.

 

[hype machine]

It's funny how smash 4 fans bag on melee about using glitches when wave dashing and l canceling aren't even glitches. But everyone goes crazy about exploits being discovered in smash 4 even when they are 5 times harder to do then a wave dash and is not even effective in a real match.

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

This looks pretty useful for tech chases on platforms, but an opponent can clearly see it coming in the neutral and it would be easy to avoid. Pretty interesting tech

 

[MOI-ARI]

This is the most Casual thing I've ever read on the entirety of SmashBoards.

Nothing wrong with casual play, really

But imo, playing a game so much then going to the farthest corners to discover a way to manipulate its Physics and turn that into a player-made 'mechanic' is really cool

I hope to hear more of stuff like this.^.^

 

[Jaedrik]

That is only what you supposed and there isn't any proof that Sakurai intended for wavedashing to be in the game at any point.

But, I do have proof. It's a logical proof.

The proof is that, since it is necessary that someone intends for their effects to come to pass when they choose some action, and since we know that Sakurai chose to keep wavedashing while Melee was being developed, he intended for wavedashing to continue its existence in the game since its existence is necessary with 'keeping' it. If it was not kept it would not exist. Therefore, there MUST be SOME point at which Sakurai intended for it to be in the game, otherwise it would not have been kept, thus it would not be in the game. But, we know that it is in the game, and we KNOW that Sakurai chose to keep it, therefore he INTENDED it to be KEPT, and thus exist in the final version.

Edit: It's like asking for ice cream from an ice cream truck and then getting mad when you get ice cream, claiming you didn't intend to get ice cream.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I hate wavedashing. I think it's stupid to rely on a glitch to move around. Fight like a man, I say.

100% true, 100% not trolling. Oh ok.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

This is totally looking more and more like wavedashing everytime I see it. Like wavedashing's beautif

Caling it - SM4SH is Melee ten years from now and the only people who play are Diddys who perfect pivot exclusively.

 

[xornadoon]

But, I do have proof. It's a logical proof.

The proof is that, since it is necessary that someone intends for their effects to come to pass when they choose some action, and since we know that Sakurai chose to keep wavedashing while Melee was being developed, he intended for wavedashing to continue its existence in the game since its existence is necessary with 'keeping' it. If it was not kept it would not exist. Therefore, there MUST be SOME point at which Sakurai intended for it to be in the game, otherwise it would not have been kept, thus it would not be in the game. But, we know that it is in the game, and we KNOW that Sakurai chose to keep it, therefore he INTENDED it to be KEPT, and thus exist in the final version.

Edit: It's like asking for ice cream from an ice cream truck and then getting mad when you get ice cream, claiming you didn't intend to get ice cream.

you're confusing intent with knowledge. He never intended for it to be in the game, he discovered it. Subsequently, he ignored it and likely never gave it a second thought until people started to get out of control with it. You are assuming that he spent a lot of time thinking about what to do with wavedashing when really what he probably did was see it and then say "oh, thats weird" and moved on. In order for your "logical proof" to be accurate, Sakurai would have had to have contemplated the future of wavedashing heavily. Since we don't know exactly what he thought about it and how he considered dealing with it, we have to speculate. Speculation and logical proofs ARE mutually exclusive.

Also, your metaphor does not work. If anything its more like being given free ice cream and then throwing it away, and then being like, "Man, i wish i never had that ice cream at all"

Back to the video, this tech is pretty cool and didnt take me very long to figure out once i started practicing.

 

[YorKeY]

...............................

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

LOL, just shut up about wavedashing! This all has to do with pivot mechanics! I don't need wavedashing to enjoy Smash 4!

Okay is it just me, or was that one of the best remixes ever!?

 

[LimitCrown]

It seems like the technique can make you vulnerable since the only thing you can do initially while you're turning around during a dash is jump.

 

[Jaedrik]

you're confusing intent with knowledge. He never intended for it to be in the game, he discovered it. Subsequently, he ignored it and likely never gave it a second thought until people started to get out of control with it. You are assuming that he spent a lot of time thinking about what to do with wavedashing when really what he probably did was see it and then say "oh, thats weird" and moved on. In order for your "logical proof" to be accurate, Sakurai would have had to have contemplated the future of wavedashing heavily. Since we don't know exactly what he thought about it and how he considered dealing with it, we have to speculate. Speculation and logical proofs ARE mutually exclusive.

Also, your metaphor does not work. If anything its more like being given free ice cream and then throwing it away, and then being like, "Man, i wish i never had that ice cream at all"

Back to the video, this tech is pretty cool and didnt take me very long to figure out once i started practicing.

http://smashboards.com/threads/disp...-intervew-wavedashing-was-intentional.162416/

I am confusing nothing.

Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period.

It even has its own name in the code. "Land Fall Special'.

What I am arguing here is that Sakurai, at some point, intended wavedashing to be in the game. His very choice to ignore it, if that is indeed the case, is a choice nonetheless, and it is reasonable to say that Sakurai knows that by ignoring it then he won't change it. He may not have to reason it out deliberately word-for-word in his head "HEY I AM KEEPING THIS", but it's just the default mode of human thought, it's implicit in the word 'choice', unless by ignoring it you mean that he forgot it existed the moment he saw it, or perhaps that he did not consider the alternative of taking it out during development of Melee? Now, I grant that it's possible he didn't consider taking it out, or perhaps changing it, as without an alternative there is no such thing as 'choice', for if only one option is considered then there is nothing to choose between. However, it is a reasonable and safe thing to assume that he did indeed consider it for more than one nanosecond, and did view the alternatives, and CHOSE to keep it. Not to mention that he responded to the Nintendo Power interview question in the affirmative, seeming to indicate this assumption to be true.

Further it's not necessary to undergo 'heavy contemplation'.
For, all that is necessary for choice is some possible alternative, however vague, that the person is aware of, that the person might chose. For, if at any point he CHOSE to keep it (thus implied there was a deliberation between two alternatives) then it must NECESSARILY be that he intends for his choice to be. Since we know that it was intentional, ("Of course" In Sakurai's words), then we reason our way back. There must have been a choice if he intended it. Reflexive actions cannot be considered intentional, since intent is a deliberate and conscious resolve for something to come to pass or resolve or be.

I wasn't trying to compare Sakurai to the ice cream person. I was trying to point out the absurdity of LimitCrown's claims. I did have a few hidden assumptions, though. I probably should have said them, even though they're pretty obvious. I was holding a mental ceteris paribus. All other things are equal, such as the person's intent to receive ice cream remaining that way from their indication of such through their ordering of it. The only way my analogy makes sense is if the person is being entirely honest in every word they're saying, since it's obviously impossible to both want ice cream and to never have wanted it at the same time. Like a square circle, or a round cube.

But, you're right, the video is neat, it certainly looks more applicable than PP to me.

 

[LimitCrown]

@ Jaedrik "landfallspecial" is the name for the helpless state that certain moves put characters in. Also, as I said before, just because Sakurai noticed wavedashing does not mean that he intended for it to be in the game. The title of the thread that you quoted is erroneous.

 

[EgeDal]

This is the most Casual thing I've ever read on the entirety of SmashBoards.

true
but being casual is okay

 

[someonerandom]

With all this fancy sliding stuff involving pivots and everything in Smash 4, one would think they put moonwalking back in ;_;

 

[Jaedrik]

@ Jaedrik "landfallspecial" is the name for the helpless state that certain moves put characters in.

Oh, you right, my bad doe.

Also, as I said before, just because Sakurai noticed wavedashing does not mean that he intended for it to be in the game. The title of the thread that you quoted is erroneous.

I'd say it's beyond reasonable doubt that the question was accurately translated, and that Sakurai was not dodging the question as many interpretations have it, but rather that his response in the affirmative (hence why the "Of course" has a comma directly after it, separating it and the clause where he notes their noticing of it) signals that they intentionally left it in. Now, if there was no comma there it'd be clear as day that he meant that it's obvious they knew about it. But, since there is one there, and since it's safe to say that he's not simply avoiding the question, the only real alternative is that he is affirming that it's obvious they left it in, then adding that choice to leave it in or not was brought about since it's so hard to miss.