New possible ways to consistently avoid Wigi's fire punch.

[#HBC | Scary]

Hopefully this isn't common knowledge, didn't see it anywhere so I figure I'd post it.

Earlier today I was at my friend's place playing Brawl, he uses Wigi and is annoying when I get around 60% since the good ol' jab->Fire Punch combo. Normally, all you can really do is hold down the shield button and hope you don't get hit.

I decided to give Nayru's Love a shot since it's invincible on start up, just had to hope it beat out the start up of the fire punch. Turns out it does, or at least as far as I've tested it. I can't post any sort of video on it since I still don't have a Wii or recording equipment of my own, but I believe NL consistently beats out the start up of Wigi's fire punch.

Now, if the Wigi decides to jab and run to bait you into NL, you can use the Love Jump to give you the height necessary to avoid the full fledged fire punch though now you are pretty vulnerable from below, but I'm willing to work with that rather than jab->fire punch.

Discuss? Oh, if someone can try and make a vid, or at least test this to be 100% true, please do because I couldn't test it much since I had to leave 15 min. after I found this out.

EDIT: I just realized that this combo will probably show up in the "How to deal with specific moves thread" but I made the thread just to be sure that this actually worked lol.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, this works.

 

[Tristan_win]

That's fantastic, good find well worth a thread.

I guess this is just another reason to use Zelda over Sheik in that match up.

So far my Zelda only match ups are...

Kirby
Luigi
Pokamon Trainer (not really needed but why break a sweat if Zelda is just that **** effective)
Ice climbers

 

[Bandit]

You are forgetting Wario. She flat out owns Wario.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

You are forgetting Wario. She flat out owns Wario.

True, but Sheik doesn't have much trouble as well and it helps with the grab release tipper Usmash.

Thanks Tristan, and yea, Sheik vs. Wigi is no fun at all.

 

[Bandit]

True, Zelda has LK's. Either way, it is a **** powerful kill move hitting him.

 

[-Mars-]

I consistently use Naryus to escape from Sheiks tilt lock as well......maybe Naryus is a sort of combo-breaker that we haven't been utilizing?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Perhaps.

That would be really nice if so, although I do use love jump to escape aerial troubles as well as throwing out empty Dairs when I get sent flying. People tend to jump into empty dairs for some reason.

 

[-Mars-]

No, I meant like something along the lines of Luigi and Samus' nair.

 

[Deleted member]

wait... so you're dieing at 60% by a shoryuken?..... lol.....

 

[#HBC | Scary]

@marsulas: I see what you mean now. I haven't really thought of that and usually try to beat it out with Dair if they come aggressively. I haven't imagined of trying a well-timed Nayru's to try and stop it, but I suppose that can work as well.

@ArkiveZero: Yea, that would devastate me because I'd end up playing way to defensive and because of that, predictable when I got around that percentage. So I'd die very easily to Wigi lol. Figuring this out is nice because I long as I'm not asleep at the control, I don't have to switch my playing style at a specific percentage.

 

[-Mars-]

@marsulas: I see what you mean now. I haven't really thought of that and usually try to beat it out with Dair if they come aggressively. I haven't imagined of trying a well-timed Nayru's to try and stop it, but I suppose that can work as well.

@ArkiveZero: Yea, that would devastate me because I'd end up playing way to defensive and because of that, predictable when I got around that percentage. So I'd die very easily to Wigi lol. Figuring this out is nice because I long as I'm not asleep at the control, I don't have to switch my playing style at a specific percentage.

Arkive meant that you should DI better.............you shouldn't be dying at 60% if you DI properly.

 

[Deleted member]

marsulas comin with the knowledge

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Okie dokie. Is it DI away from the jab or after getting hit by shoryuken?

When I say getting killed at 60%, I mean the combo is initiated lol. I've never survived a jab->shoryuken when started at 60% and it makes me very sad

 

[Deleted member]

both

you can SDI out of the jab but thats a little harder, so just hold left/right whenever you get jacked by a tenro

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Ok, that sounds very helpful if I do get hit by it. Normally, I get sent straight up because I deem myself completely doomed once hit by it.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Anything over 45% is kill territory against Wigi.

Which sucks, because it only takes him 3 or 4 aerials to reach that, and his aerials combo together amazingly well.

 

[-Mars-]

Anything over 45% is kill territory against Wigi.

Which sucks, because it only takes him 3 or 4 aerials to reach that, and his aerials combo together amazingly well.

You seem to hate playing Luigi...... which is funny because Zelda pretty much shuts down his whole game.

 

[Deleted member]

You seem to hate playing Luigi...... which is funny because Zelda pretty much shuts down his whole game.

what? my luigi does work against zelda

 

[SwastikaPyle]

You seem to hate playing Luigi...... which is funny because Zelda pretty much shuts down his whole game.

It seems that way in theory but it's quite different in actual practice.

Wigi's smashes all kill sooner than Zelda's. They are also faster and have more range. His air game is better than Zelda's can ever dream of being, same with his grab game, and he can also gimp her almost comically easy. Not to mention all of his aerials go right through Din's, and his down+b has ridiculous priority and speed.

Zelda has only two real tools to win, her upsmash and downsmash, and both of them stale extremely quickly.

Wigi will be killing you much sooner then you'll be killing him, has more priority, speed, and combo ability. Also, his projectile doesn't have as much range but is much easier to spam without punishment than hers. His jab----> grab is almost unavoidable.

I have honestly quit playing Zelda because she's too inadequate to fight my friend's Wigi anymore after he's learned to shut down all of her options. I've pretty much switched to ROB now, sadly.

 

[Super Angry Luigi]

That is not cool. Zelda is already a total pain for my Weegee as it is, and now this.

 

[Tristan_win]

You are forgetting Wario. She flat out owns Wario.

Psh, ever since I learn the chain beats wario down into nothingness I don't see wario as much as a threat anymore. He's just a moving target doomed to lose unless I screw up.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

^ awww, you should try zelda every once in a while in that match up

grab-release---->lightning kick is comical


(and if they used their second jumpl, grab release->grab release->grab release.......->lightning kick is even more fun)

 

[-Mars-]

It seems that way in theory but it's quite different in actual practice.

Wigi's smashes all kill sooner than Zelda's. They are also faster and have more range. His air game is better than Zelda's can ever dream of being, same with his grab game, and he can also gimp her almost comically easy. Not to mention all of his aerials go right through Din's, and his down+b has ridiculous priority and speed.

Zelda has only two real tools to win, her upsmash and downsmash, and both of them stale extremely quickly.

Wigi will be killing you much sooner then you'll be killing him, has more priority, speed, and combo ability. Also, his projectile doesn't have as much range but is much easier to spam without punishment than hers. His jab----> grab is almost unavoidable.

I have honestly quit playing Zelda because she's too inadequate to fight my friend's Wigi anymore after he's learned to shut down all of her options. I've pretty much switched to ROB now, sadly.

What Luigi smash has more range than fsmash? I just sit in fsmash range and zone the hell out of Weegee's. The only smash of his that kills earlier than Zelda's is fsmash and the range on that is pretty bad. He can't even really use it as an OoS option due to his traction. If your having problems dealing with Luigi's dair to nair approaches try some SH uair.........it ***** it. The dair to tornado approach is beaten every time by Naryus. Fireballs are crap, if you're having problems with those I don't know what to tell you. You can also Naryus out of his dthrow mindgames and his bthrow shouldn't kill you until 150% if you know how to DI.

Wigi isn't getting inside of me to kill me at 60%, so that's not a problem. Where are you getting this priority junk from? He outprioritizes you in the air and that's it.......nowhere else. Dtilt even clanks or beats most of his ground game. He doesn't even have great combos on Zelda because of her floatiness, he can only land like two utilts at Zero percent and you should just be DI'ing his dthrow.

She also ***** his recovery. If he wants to recover high, harass with dins to stop his missile and ocassionally hit at the apex of his rising tornado. If he tries to recover low, that's dair/dtilt territory. WHen he's about to use his up-b, grab the ledge and earn yourself a free ledgehopped fair.

Your particular Zelda may have problems against LuigiKing's impressive Luigi(I will admit he knows his stuff). But Zelda in general beats Luigi.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

What Luigi smash has more range than fsmash? I just sit in fsmash range and zone the hell out of Weegee's. The only smash of his that kills earlier than Zelda's is fsmash and the range on that is pretty bad. He can't even really use it as an OoS option due to his traction. If your having problems dealing with Luigi's dair to nair approaches try some SH uair.........it ***** it. The dair to tornado approach is beaten every time by Naryus. Fireballs are crap, if you're having problems with those I don't know what to tell you. You can also Naryus out of his dthrow mindgames and his bthrow shouldn't kill you until 150% if you know how to DI.

His dsmash reaches the same range as fsmash, and it's much faster. Also, Luigi's upsmash reaches ALL AROUND HIM, it is much faster, it has more knockback and it has a sweetspot. Her upsmash lasts a long time but all of it's attributes are not as good as his.

If you can 'zone the hell' out of Wigi just by using fsmash, I think you need to start playing some better Wigis. If he rolls behind while you're doing an fsmash, that is at least 16% for him, or he can fireball you from just out of fsmash range.

Also, what the hell at sh uair ****** Wigi's shorthop. Have you ever actually tried that? An UPSMASH ***** it, and that's what I typically use, but LuigiKing realizes this and rarely even uses that as an approach anymore.

I never use Nayru's, if I can help it. It's too slow. In the afterlag of it, Wigi actually has the time to run up and Shoryuken you if he has good timing. It does stop his tornado, but it's often way too fast for you to do much about it.

Fireballs are NOT crap and everyone should stop underestimating them. They don't have a lot of damage or speed but they are EXTREMELY spammable and provide great interruption abilities.

Watch how Polmex uses fireballs defensively:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2sz-ZRzkl4

Wigi isn't getting inside of me to kill me at 60%, so that's not a problem. Where are you getting this priority junk from? He outprioritizes you in the air and that's it.......nowhere else. Dtilt even clanks or beats most of his ground game. He doesn't even have great combos on Zelda because of her floatiness, he can only land like two utilts at Zero percent and you should just be DI'ing his dthrow.

You're saying stuff out of theory, like I stated above. It is MUCH different in actual practice, which is what I have.

Wigi CAN combo Zelda very well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IppWvqZ_FpI look at 4:24.

That double utilt combo puts her in the air, where she is completely at Wigi's mercy. Wigi has the same fall speed as her and has no lag on his aerials.

It doesn't matter that dtilt clanks with the majority of his ground game, because 80% of his attacks will be aerials. And yes, his priority is MUCH better than yours. The only 100% winning option you have is upsmash, which is the reason it goes stale so quickly. And if he spaces properly, he can even avoid your upsmash while still hitting you. Because of the nature of his bair and Zelda's fsmash, when the two moves hit, Wigi recieves about 2% while Zelda receives 12%.

I do DI his throws. His bthrow still kills off the top at 140%. Even if you DI his downthrow, he has plenty of options. He doesn't HAVE to jump and follow you into the air, he can do a sliding upsmash, or do another jab grab. Wigi has many options out of a throw, Zelda just wants to reach the ground and Wigi is EXCELLENT at stopping her from doing that.

She also ***** his recovery. If he wants to recover high, harass with dins to stop his missile and ocassionally hit at the apex of his rising tornado. If he tries to recover low, that's dair/dtilt territory. WHen he's about to use his up-b, grab the ledge and earn yourself a free ledgehopped fair.

Once again, these are only in theory. These will never happen to a GOOD Wigi. A good Wigi like LKing knows how to avoid this stuff.

You will never dtilt spike a good Wigi, ever.

Not to mention that attempting to attack his rising tornado will send Zelda out from the stage at a HORRIBLE angle, probably forcing her to teleport back to safety which means the Wigi will probably get a free hit or edgehog you. You also won't get a ledgehopped fair on him, he knows how to avoid all of these things.

Once again, a good Wigi knows how to beat all of these options.

Your particular Zelda may have problems against LuigiKing's impressive Luigi(I will admit he knows his stuff). But Zelda in general beats Luigi.

Zelda, in general, beats BAD Luigis.

 

[-Mars-]

You keep using the stupid *** GOOD Luigi argument. To be honest, LuigiKing is just a far better player than you. A GOOD Zelda beats a GOOD Luigi, to be honest you have one of the worst Zelda's i've seen. I cringe every time I look at one of your videos, all of your rolling and standing Dins and whiffed smashes.....it's brutal.

Your always stuck on your opinions from your own personal playing experiences which in the grand scheme of things matters little. This argument coming from the same person that tried to argue with 10 people that Zelda beats Ike when it was clear you had no idea what you were talking about. I don't even feel like posting a decent response to your previous post.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

If he's such a better player than me, why are there videos of me BEATING him?

I posted rebuttals. You did not.

You post noobish strategies for noobish players. That stuff will not work on a player who has practiced, seen it before, and knows how to avoid it all. This is why they will not work on GOOD players. You won't understand until you DO fight a good player like LuigiKing who adapts and learns to these strategies. You don't HAVE the experience I do.

I also cringe every time I look at one of your...oh wait, you don't even have any videos do you?

As for the Zelda/Ike thread, there were also people who AGREED with me. There was just you, Sonic, and Ryko on one side. WigiKing (who is apparently a MUCH BETTER PLAYER) also agreed that Ike does not **** Zelda.

You know why you don't feel like writing a decent response? It's because you can't come up with one. Until you actually experience the things I have, you'll forever be a pathetic theorycrafter who just tags along in threads like this until you give up.

 

[RoyalBlood]

If Luigi realeses on the ground after grab it's D-smash time =D right? D:

 

[Bandit]

Swastika... do you read what you post before you press that quick reply button or do you just let your fingers walk because that was just immature and painful to read. The whole "good player" & "bad player" argument is stupid and generally thrown out. Whenever people are talking about a character, it is using a situation where both players are the best of the best with their character to the best knowledge of the community.

Marsulas has done a ton for this community and knows what he is talking about. If he is wrong, he would be the first to admit it, but in this case, the majority sides with him. You need to chill out and not take shots at people who have earned respect for their knowledge and contributions.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Swastika, not to be mean, but I play alot against Polmex's Wigi and I have to side with marsulas on this one. Zelda really shuts down his game as long as you play the matchup correctly. This was before I made this little discovery of NL beating the jab->shoryuken setup. Wigi cant do much except bait attacks in order to do the majority of the matchup so even though its still winnable for Wigi, its more along the lines for a matchup to be controlled by Zelda.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Can I see some vids you beating his Wigi then? Because I think Polmex has an outstanding Wigi, and if you genuinely do beat him (without any ******** suicides on his part), I will admit that I'm wrong, no johns.

By the way, I see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stbF84qtLwA and I think he is even better now, since he does so much better in the video I previously posted against D3.

Also, I really don't think jab-shoryuken is that big of a deal anymore. His up-angled fsmash kills just 30% later than the shoryuken.

Swastika... do you read what you post before you press that quick reply button or do you just let your fingers walk because that was just immature and painful to read. The whole "good player" & "bad player" argument is stupid and generally thrown out. Whenever people are talking about a character, it is using a situation where both players are the best of the best with their character to the best knowledge of the community.

I COMPLETELY AGREE with the idea of both players doing the best they can with their character, that's why I won't accept these arguments from Marsulas giving tactics that are CLEARLY not the best. He talks about things that we've learned how to avoid months ago and acts like it's still some sort of current strategy and we should just learn to be it. Me and LuigiKing have advanced way beyond the stuff he's saying, and he's acting like we're somehow behind the times.

Marsulas has done a ton for this community and knows what he is talking about. If he is wrong, he would be the first to admit it, but in this case, the majority sides with him. You need to chill out and not take shots at people who have earned respect for their knowledge and contributions.

I never give a crap about what a person's 'reputation' is at a community. If a person is wrong, I will call them out on it. I disagreed with Mew2king when he described Snake as the best in the game, so did many others. What makes Marsulas know so much about the game? Yay, he posts a lot. If posts counts were an indication of skill, Choknater would be world champion by now.

And who is 'the majority?' When I scroll up through the second page, I see a post agreeing with me. Marsulas has a post agreeing with him too. That doesn't seem a clear majority to me, unless you bring in StH who loves to disagree with anything I say.

 

[Kataefi]

Just to let everyone know this move shall be talked about soon in the dealing with moves thread. But the more we discuss it here now the better ^^

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Okie dokie, I'll get those vids up ASAP although I'd have to get a hold of him to play him or else we wouldn't see these matches till 2009 since I'll be back in Ft. Lauderdale for the holidays! lol.

Yes, I do agree with Fsmash killing 30-35% later than jab->shoryuken but at least a huge bullet is mostly, not completely gone. I can live with this for now.

Polmex definitely has a great Wigi, for me it just took the matchup some getting used to but I usually run around even with him before I figured this out. Haven't played him in around 2 weeks though lol.

 

[-Mars-]

If he's such a better player than me, why are there videos of me BEATING him?

I posted rebuttals. You did not.

You post noobish strategies for noobish players. That stuff will not work on a player who has practiced, seen it before, and knows how to avoid it all. This is why they will not work on GOOD players. You won't understand until you DO fight a good player like LuigiKing who adapts and learns to these strategies. You don't HAVE the experience I do.

I also cringe every time I look at one of your...oh wait, you don't even have any videos do you?

As for the Zelda/Ike thread, there were also people who AGREED with me. There was just you, Sonic, and Ryko on one side. WigiKing (who is apparently a MUCH BETTER PLAYER) also agreed that Ike does not **** Zelda.

You know why you don't feel like writing a decent response? It's because you can't come up with one. Until you actually experience the things I have, you'll forever be a pathetic theorycrafter who just tags along in threads like this until you give up.

Anyone can beat somebody that they play with all of the time. I really don't care about the comments about my experience or how many videos I have. I have nothing to prove to anyone, nor do I wish to waste my time in doing so.

No it wasn't just Ryko, Sonic, and myself saying those things..........it's really just the general consensus that Ike beats Zelda. Check our matchup thread and the Ike matchup thread if you think only a few people believe that.

"Pathetic theorycrafter"? That one gave me a good laugh.

Can I see some vids you beating his Wigi then? Because I think Polmex has an outstanding Wigi, and if you genuinely do beat him (without any ******** suicides on his part), I will admit that I'm wrong, no johns.

By the way, I see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stbF84qtLwA and I think he is even better now, since he does so much better in the video I previously posted against D3.

Also, I really don't think jab-shoryuken is that big of a deal anymore. His up-angled fsmash kills just 30% later than the shoryuken.



I COMPLETELY AGREE with the idea of both players doing the best they can with their character, that's why I won't accept these arguments from Marsulas giving tactics that are CLEARLY not the best. He talks about things that we've learned how to avoid months ago and acts like it's still some sort of current strategy and we should just learn to be it. Me and LuigiKing have advanced way beyond the stuff he's saying, and he's acting like we're somehow behind the times.



I never give a crap about what a person's 'reputation' is at a community. If a person is wrong, I will call them out on it. I disagreed with Mew2king when he described Snake as the best in the game, so did many others. What makes Marsulas know so much about the game? Yay, he posts a lot. If posts counts were an indication of skill, Choknater would be world champion by now.

And who is 'the majority?' When I scroll up through the second page, I see a post agreeing with me. Marsulas has a post agreeing with him too. That doesn't seem a clear majority to me, unless you bring in StH who loves to disagree with anything I say.

See this is where your wrong. Just because you have a lot of difficulty in the Luigi matchup doesn't mean he has an advantage. Just because Scary knows the matchup and beats Polmex doesn't mean Zelda has the advantage. You have to look at it from a tools perspective. What does Zelda have that beats Luigi and what does Luigi have that beats Zelda. If your going to admit your wrong after seeing one Zelda beat a Luigi, then your argument was weak to begin with.

I actually agree with you, what I say shouldn't be taken as truth all of the time. It's a message board and we're all going to have different opinions and ocassionally argue over somethings. I don't even have much of a reputation as it is, nor do I care.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I would admit I am wrong because Polmex is an extremely high level Luigi, and I don't think any Zelda can beat him (except maybe DM on occasion).

I'd say Boss, LuigiKing, TheMann, and Polmex are the only real actual good Wigis around. If I see one of these lose a set to a Zelda, then I will admit that Zelda has the advantage in the matchup, because those guys are playing Wigi to the highest of his ability. If Wigi still loses, after using all of the tools at his disposal, then I will admit Zelda has the advantage.

 

[Bandit]

What tourneys does LuigiKing play in? I'm being serious because I can't find him on the tourney results boards, and I was curious as to how he places. I also can't find you anywhere on the results boards either. This would be helpful as I have no idea what region you guys are in.

I finally found him, and he is from Idaho. I still can't find him in any tournaments though.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

We live in Idaho, so if we ever want to go to any big tournaments it usually means at least a two-day drive.

We went to EWU Monthly a short time ago, he got 4th or 5th (along with a bunch of other people) out of like 30 I think. I got my butt kicked by two Marths in a row (Bladewise and Uchiha, I think). He fought Deva's Link and this other Wigi and beat them both, then I think he lost to a Snake? He'll probably see this thread and reply.

Since we both live in Idaho, tournaments are very special occasions. East coasties and Californians have it easy.

 

[LuigiKing]

I beat Deva, then a zelda, then a ditto Luigi match and lost to Jem's Metaknight. Tied for 5th with one other.