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TheGeneral

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Messages
347

Samochan

Smash Master
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Jun 2, 2006
Messages
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I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
I can see that you and your top tier playing friend could both use some tips and all, falco on spacing and playing smarter (gotta learn not not get shieldgrabbed after lasers lol, spacing man), but I'll touch on the peach stuff as of now.

Against falco:

First of all, do not edgeguard with upsmash. Only when you have no other option on punishing a falco/fox using forward b on stage and even then there are better options. Weak upsmash combos sure, but especially on your situation simple float over there and butt the falco would've been a much more efficent choice and would have KO'ed him. So do not be shy on reaching falco. Unlike fox, falco lacks a hitbox on his firebird loading animation, so you can hit him with whatever you wish. Turnips into edgeguard/hog are especially good. So work more on your edgeguarding and make it more efficent and deadly, float over their faces and butt/nair or stuff, edgeguard on stage with aerials like spaced fair or even forward smash or aim a turnip on their face from various directions. And when you see they cannot make it back to the stage anymore, don't bother edgeguarding but just float backwards to the ledge and drop down to edgehog, then time your rise up so you don't get hit.

Secondly, work more on your chaingrabbing skills. Uthrow to dsmash works well from zero and bit higher % and after that cg through the stage is good. Dash attack also works very well against fast fallers and in tandem with basically every float cancel you do, so use it more. You need to follow more aggressively when you see an opening, so you get in consecutive hits and build up damage faster. Some more dsmashing also doesn't hurt. I see that you also use wavedash as one form of movement, so what you can do against falco is wavedash from shield to various stuff, which works like a dream. Wavedash back as falco tries to use dair, with good distance, makes em open for some good dsmashing or chaingrabs or whatever you may wish to use. Same goes for dash dancing.

Thirdly, you need to watch more closely what your opponent does. If he retreats, dont mindlessly attack him without a plan to actually hit him. If he lasers, don't stand there but shield it, float over it, powershield, sidestep it... if he jumps and is on top of you, don't stand idle either but move out of the way or shield it, there is little chance he'll come down with anything else than a dair. So you need to plan your movement beforehand and watch what your opponent is doing, not just float cancel and hope for the best or do some other unneccesary movement.

Fourth, you need to lay low on grabbing from shield all the time, that reflexive action will hurt you on the long run. Work instead on different kind of maneuvers, aforementioned wd from shield will move you into more safer position but allows you to punish your opponents action. Float cancel/aerial from shield is instant punishment, while rolling is just to get away quickly when you don't see an opening or are unsure what to do.

To sum it up: Edgeguard more effectively, work on chaingrabbing, consecutive hits and real combos, pay more attention to your opponent and plan accordingly aka play smarter and finally work yourself out of the shieldgrab habit and test out other options.

Getting more technical and better timing never hurts either. Also watching other good peaches play like cort, armada and pc chris for example never hurts either. I've personally found japanese peaches like mikael, kei and ikki really educational when I started playing peach, same with vidjo, azen and edrees. Throw in some wife, ryoko, bone, rock (mexican) and sastopher. If you understand why players make the choices they make and why it works, you understand the game itself and can work from that. Playing smart is important, but understanding why an action is smart is the first step to playing smart yourself and getting good on smash.
 

aresparadox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
66
Location
Rockaway NJ
two things i saw, didnt read samochans post but 2 things against falco you GOTTA take advantage of your edgeguard oppurtunities on falco , and you GOTTA take advantage of every grab you get on the bird. u missed a few oppurtunities with up throws that lead nowhere, i admit i like dsmash at the edge but in most cases just instant float bair is better option since itll send ur opponent away form the stage or u can just jump down float next to them n nair, both r great options.
 

Shakugan

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
455
Location
Vineland,New Jersey
Dont you ever get waveshined like that again also you need more tech skill and you need to chain throw Fox and more downsmash. I need to watch the match again to give more input. Also you made a lot of mistakes

Shakugan, maybe im a lion
 

TheGeneral

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Messages
347
Any suggestions on how to not get waveshined like that again? I tried to smash-di away. Once I spot-dodged and he ran through me.

And for some reason I still cannot chain grab. I've been practicing it in training against a cpu on evade and I keep missing the regrab... :(
 

aresparadox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
66
Location
Rockaway NJ
in terms of cg'ing ur falco n fox'es, just up throw> down smash and try and work something from there with a sweet tech chase like running n regrabbing or running n ccing dsmash. itll b easier for u to cg after u get a d smash in at 0%
 

Samochan

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,450
Location
I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
Chaingrabbing is something that's easier to start practicing from higher than 40%. You just need to get the timing down when you can start dashing to some direction and when to press grab again. You could also try with normal lv1 cpu, they start di'ing away on your second throw if it's consecutive. They di kinda far though, to me at least it feels different chaining a human opponent that di's away than cpu.

And aresparadox, any good fast faller will techroll that dsmash that they see coming from uthrow (really, who wouldn't see it coming?) and then just get away real far before dsmash has ended and cannot be followed. But it still works as getting free damage in that gets em to cg % and against not so good spacies, they can mess their tech and then the chase is on.

Against waveshine, you can try to smash di away from it and shield, if they mess their timing even a little bit you will be safe. Sometimes cc'ing and smash di against will also leave you behind your opponent as they mess their distance with waveshine. But those who won't mess will have fast reaction speed to grab you from your shield anyway or won't bother with waveshining and go for some uthrow uair/upsmash instead. If you go to the ledge, you can avoid getting shined off stage by pressing down to cc it and then against the shine so you won't accidentally fly real low. If you still get waveshined off stage, jump further away from fox and float at the apex of your jump, teeter so he won't get a clear shot with shinespike and then you can go with multiple options, one is a lucky parasol stagespike if they try shinespike, another is to let go of float and instantly aerial dodge back to stage and lastly you may try to hit them with fair and stagespike. If you space better than them, you might get a shot at this. I've once countered a shinespike with toad myself, shame the spores hit nothing though cause fox just jumped back.

I don't get waveshined that much myself and on many occasions I seem to fall to the ledge. But pushing against waveshine and cc'ing when you're going to be pushed off stage should do the trick as cc'ing makes you fly shorter distance and against makes you grab the ledge without falling out when cc'ing. I think. >_>

Trying to explain mechanics how one does it without actually having been experiemented on the mechanics is rough.
 

TheGeneral

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Messages
347
Ah, more good info. So upwards of 40% is the magic number for some of the fast-fallers. I think I was trying to regrab to early (percentage wise). I remember Magus had a thread with like the exact percentages on falco, fox, and falcon, so I'll be on the lookout for that when I practice next.

And a kind of random question still pertaining to cg-ing. So suppose you do miss a re-grab, do you give up on trying to grab or do you try to tech chase and regrab? I found I could follow a cpu (on evade) by walking and then grab him before he moved again, but I imagine a real person will just shine me away (thats what my friend kept doing to me, but maybe my timing was just off).

Also, I will try throwing some towards smash-di and cc-ing into my mix up to get out of waveshine faster next time
 

Samochan

Smash Master
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I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
And a kind of random question still pertaining to cg-ing. So suppose you do miss a re-grab, do you give up on trying to grab or do you try to tech chase and regrab? I found I could follow a cpu (on evade) by walking and then grab him before he moved again, but I imagine a real person will just shine me away (thats what my friend kept doing to me, but maybe my timing was just off).
I usually start my cg from 40% 'ish. 20% is basically only if they don't try do di away or so. And 40% is what you get after one dsmash and one good grab attack high heel smack.

If you wiff a regrab, your opponent will either tech it right away, just stumble onto the ground or jump on higher %. They do not expect you to mess a cg, so you can still rectify the situation if they don't tech or jump. If they just stumble, get close to them and shield as they try to wakeup attack you and regrab again. On the situation that they roll away, you now have to move extremely quickly to that direction, but on most cases when you see them moving it's already too late to catch them, so you'd need to anticipate this maneuver. If they just get up, do not be fooled by the getup animation and grab too late, as you will only have a 6 frame leeway between invulnerability frames and vulnerablity before they can use shine, same goes for the standing tech (not completely sure if standing anmation has same frame data, but it's close enough, the tech is right though). I've been mauled enough by standing foxes and falcos to know there is little room on standing tech for one to punish it, it's too good lol.

If you chase a good fox or falco when they tech roll and you're not close enough to catch em, if they are any good they can either shine you if you're in range or they dash away quickly which makes you miss your attack, whatever you might've done (dash attack, fc aerials, grab..) and then dash back with a deadly aerial or laser or even worse, fox's upsmash. Marth is the same, they just love to dash away or wavedash back, so never attack a good marth head on if they are someone who know their frameworks.

Hm that was longer than expected. ^^;;
 

TheGeneral

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Messages
347
Holy, ish guys. I played my friend again today and I was a lot more effective. I never realized how easy it can be to edge gaurd falco, lol. Also, cc-dsmsmash is broken.
 

Samochan

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,450
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I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
Holy, ish guys. I played my friend again today and I was a lot more effective. I never realized how easy it can be to edge gaurd falco, lol. Also, cc-dsmsmash is broken.
Awesome :3

Falco is too easy to edgeguard, yea lol.

Cc-dsmash is broken on low% and against non-jump happy players. Those who know you will cc-dsmash a lot jump around after landing an aerial, especially someone like sheik will have easy time spacing a fair and then just jumping to avoid your dsmash. Marths try to tip you, but their spacing can still be messed up. Fox can get caught in cc dsmash from time to time if you catch em unaware or with a weak aerial, falco not so much unless they got for nair, dair > dsmash. :/ Falcon is also like ugh, spaced nairs and then hop into dair/dd'ing completely avoids dsmash. <_< If they start avoiding and punishing cc dsmash, you can also cc into other things and better your timing, so it's instantaneous. Just press stick down and instantly let go, then perform some other maneuver. Shield is good if you're being pressurised, you can cc into grab (real good with marf), cc into dash attack or otherwise dash away or cc into fc or jump aerial. :3

So keep these in mind if someone starts to avoid cc dsmashing.
 

TheGeneral

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Messages
347
Awesome :3

Falco is too easy to edgeguard, yea lol.

Cc-dsmash is broken on low% and against non-jump happy players. Those who know you will cc-dsmash a lot jump around after landing an aerial, especially someone like sheik will have easy time spacing a fair and then just jumping to avoid your dsmash. Marths try to tip you, but their spacing can still be messed up. Fox can get caught in cc dsmash from time to time if you catch em unaware or with a weak aerial, falco not so much unless they got for nair, dair > dsmash. :/ Falcon is also like ugh, spaced nairs and then hop into dair/dd'ing completely avoids dsmash. <_< If they start avoiding and punishing cc dsmash, you can also cc into other things and better your timing, so it's instantaneous. Just press stick down and instantly let go, then perform some other maneuver. Shield is good if you're being pressurised, you can cc into grab (real good with marf), cc into dash attack or otherwise dash away or cc into fc or jump aerial. :3

So keep these in mind if someone starts to avoid cc dsmashing.
Haha, yeah a lot of the situations you described actually came up when I was playing. I accidentally (?) cc-grabbed my friend's marth a few times. I think that's something I will try to get more proficient at because not only is it suprising but grabs are always good.

@macd- Thanks for the link. I saved all of Magus' post into a text file so I'll have it with me now.

I was thinking of making a guide like that (probably not nearly as good) for how to di-all of the other character's most prominent attacks. What do you guys think of a project like that?
 
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