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New Move Sets? Kirby

kirbykid

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“Don’t tell me the low tier story. I wrote the low tier story!”~KirbyKid
<p align="center"><img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/kirby__s_by_ro_sa.png" alt="Kirby Kolors" height="288" width="384" /></p>
Kirby is bad. But this is not the time to discuss how much Sakurai has back stabbed his own creation. This citizen of Dreamland needs an overhaul. Nearly everything about him needs to be upgraded, re-envisioned, re-imagined, and rethought. But, as is the custom, I’ll only focus on his Special moves.





<strong>Final Cutter</strong>: As Kirby’s only projectile and his only legitimate method of returning from below the stage, this move is very important to Kirby’s survival. (Remember, he is a light weight character). It’s hard to point out all the positives about this move. The hitboxes for the blade and projectile aren’t very big, and they don’t do a lot of damage or have a lot of knockback. Because the strike at the crest of the attack is a meteor hit, it can be canceled allowing enemies to jump away and attack Kirby while he’s still lagged out. The low knock back of the sword strikes was supposed to allow Kirby to combo this move, but a dash of DI greatly reduces the chance of this happening. What’s worse is there are times when there is no hitbox while the blade is extended leaving Kirby vulnerable to attack. Also, if Kirby is hit in just the right way, somehow, all of his jumps disappear. (A Kirby without jumps is as good as dead) For these reasons, using this move on the stage is risky, and while recovering, is risky. What can be done?
<ul>
<li>Fix the hit boxes. If you can see the blade, there should be a hitbox for it. As it is now, the hitboxes are four tiny dots that disappear and reappear instead of a long angular sword-hitbox like Marth’s.</li>
<li>Kirby shouldn’t lose his jumps if hit out of this attack. That’s just silly, though losing some jumps is still a possibility I’m willing to live with.</li>
<li>The move should be faster. So many other character’s Up Specials come out faster and are more dangerous. The added speed going up and down would help make this attack more effective offensively and defensively. It’s like that in Kirby’s other games (see video 2).</li>
<li>The meteor strike at the top should spike. If Kirby is going to go through all the work, timing, and spacing to hit enemies at the crest of the attack, then they shouldn’t be able to simply pop out of it and hit you back.</li>
<li>The projectile should sweep enemies away even if they’re shielding. If the projectile is going to be so short, and easily dodge-able, and give low amounts of damage, then there needs to be some benefit for taking the trouble (and lag) to use it. I’m not saying the attack should hurt enemies through their shields, but it should push them along.</li>
<li>If the move doesn’t increase in speed, the sword should increase in size. It’s pretty obvoius that Metaknight’s sword is small. To compensate, Sakurai make his up Special quick like Marth’s. Metaknight also has an air dash with his Triple Dash. These ideas should be applied to designing Kirby.</li>
<li>Kirby should be able to slide forward or backwards while using this move, like he could in Smash64. This was one of the first disappointing differences I noticed when first playing Melee.</li>
</ul>
<strong>Hammer:</strong> I don’t understand what this move is supposed to be used for. It’s not incredibly strong. And when I say this, I mean it’s not strong enough to kill anyone paying attention. Just a little DI renders this move ineffectual. It doesn’t have any range. It’s about as long as Kirby’s tilts, except this has a sweet spot. The head of the hammer does the “killing” and the handle does… well… nothing. For a move with such a small range, this is inexcusable. I call it the “sour” spot.? And the lag! This move is only slightly faster than the falcon punch. You might think this is an exaggeration, but I don’t. Before you swing it, there’s lag. After you swing it, there’s lag. On the ground this move is practically useless. In the air, this move is… barely usable. Kirby swings the hammer in a circle really quickly. Actually, it looks like it’s spinning quickly, but if you look at the hit boxes, it’s actually spinning quite slowly. This creates a false impression of the move, and it leaves a big hole open in this attack. When this move does connect, it hits the enemies around a few times. It doesn’t have a lot of range, knockback, or damage (are you seeing a pattern yet?). But when you land on the ground, Kirby has lag. And because enemies can DI out of it, or just hit after the swinging as stopped, this move becomes an unwise move in most situations. What should they have done?
<ul>
<li>Fix the hit box in the air. If this move looks like it’s spinning fast, then the hit box should spin fast. Period.</li>
<li>This move should have 3 stages when used on the ground. First, the hammer should come out fast and strikes behind Kirby as he’s pulling back. Then, it should swing in front of Kirby. Finally it should finish by hooking around behind again. This way, the attack can be used forwards and backwards. This would make up for the lack of range. Actually, the move was originally programmed like this (and without the? “sour” spot), but for some reason they took it out. What a poor decision.</li>
<li>If Kirby is running and uses this move, it should act like a new dash attack. In this attack, Kirby spins around in circle holding the hammer out to strike enemies. This is taken directly from previous Kirby games. (See video 2)</li>
<li>Kirby should be able to run with the hammer out for a limited time. The hammer would act as a constant shield/hitbox like Peach’s parasol. (See video 2)</li>
<li>The lag from using the hammer in the air should be greatly reduced to increase it’s combo-ability. It’s not like Kirby’s other moves combo well anyway.</li>
<li>The hit box for the hammer in the air should hit enemies in the direction tangent to the arc of the swing. This is the technical way of saying that the enemies should fly in the direction the hammer is swinging, and not the direction they choose to DI. This is especially important because the move has little knockback.</li>
</ul>
<strong>Stone:</strong> Kirby hovers for a moment, and then comes crashing down in the form of a rock (or some other heavy object). Back in the day (Smash64 days) this move was the bane of casual players everywhere because of it’s high priority and killing power. I’ve heard of some people’s winning strategies consisted entirely of “jump up really high and then stone, over and over.” In Melee, the transformation is slower, the fall rate is slower, the damage is less, the knockback is less, the de-transformation is longer, and the rock form can take less hits before breaking. Now, I understand that Kirby was over powered back in the day, but this is not how a move should be balanced. Let’s see what we can do about this.
<ul>
<li>Keep the lag at during the de-transformation, and speed up the fall rate and the transformation.</li>
<li>Return the fearsome killing power of the stone or….</li>
<li>Instead of hitting enemies up and out, perhaps it makes more sense to squash and suppress enemies down. Remember how I described my version of the Falcon Kick? The same idea should be applied to Kirby’s stone. As an excellent edge guarding move, it would drag enemies down until Kirby de-transforms. If you think this is unbalanced because of Kirby’s high priority and speed (especially off the edge), consider this. The move is very predictable because it can only travel in one way at one speed. Straight down. If you happen to be on top of the rock (possibly landing on top of it) then Kirby’s body will act like a platform. And as Kirby is hovering there transforming back, you can always footstool him.</li>
<li>If they can give peach all sorts of random turnips to play with, then it’s not unreasonable to suggest that Kirby’s different rock forms should do different things. The spike ball should hurt those who try and grab it. The thwomp form should be able to slowly rise back up after crashing down to the ground. The Panel-de-pon block should be bigger than the other forms and have more squishing power.</li>
<li>If none of these options, then Kirby should be able to run around as a rock-kirby and do all of his normal moves. Perhaps with some super armor? (see video 1)</li>
</ul>
<p align="center"><img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/kirby_by_koanne.jpg" alt="Kirby Simply Kirby" height="425" width="318" /></p>
<strong>Swallow/Powers:</strong> I saved the best for last. If it weren’t for this ability, Kirby would be little more than a pink snot on the curbside. Sounds harsh, but you have to understand that Kirby is the embodiment of freedom jovial spirits that manifests itself in the ability to <em>see it-do it </em>with child like wonder and ease. This ability is the reason why I picked Kirby over Yoshi back in the day. Because of this ability, I’ve lost hundreds maybe thousands of dollars in prize money, and a little piece of my mind and life along the way.

Taking powers involves two steps. 1) swallowing up enemies. 2) Hitting down on the stick. Kirby’s swallow ability would be his most controversial move if Kirby were just a little bit better than he is now. The ability to swallow up enemies, leap off the edge, and survive no matter what they do could have set the smash world on fire. But Kirby is no good, so nobody cared. Before we move on, this is what I have to suggest about just the Swallow ability.
<ul>
<li>Kirby should be able to suck in all physical matter. This includes items, assist characters, and other players.</li>
<li>Kirby’s swallow range shouldn’t decrease when in the air. It’s hard enough to suck up a moving target that can attack you. Making the swallow hit box super small wasn’t necessary.</li>
<li>Kirby should be able to suck up multiple things at once if the timing is correct. Whether this means combined powers (more on that later) or it means that Kirby will receive a random power (like in his previous games), it does matter. This ability is a must.</li>
</ul>
Once Kirby gets a power, Kirby’s character is supposed to come to life, spaming unbridled destruction as the world bends their knees to him (especially Captain Falcon). Ok, maybe not so much, but I’m serious about Kirby’s powers being the main attraction of Kirby. In Smash64 and Melee, Kirby’s copied abilities were mostly very disappointing. To keep things simple, Kirby simply takes the Standard Special move of his enemies. There are a hand full of powers that Kirby can take that Kirby can use better than his opponents. A lot are practically useless. And there are some that are risible at best.

The good powers come from these characters: Falco. Fox. Sheik. Samus. Doctor Mario. Jigglypuff. Mario. Bowser. Mewtwo. All the other powers are not very good to terrible. Why would Kirby’s Falcon Punch, Shield Breaker, Yoshi tongue, Monkey Punch, Roy charge blade, and Icicle projectile be reduced to smaller ranged gimped versions of the original attacks? Here’s what needs to change.
<ul>
<li>Kirby should be able to take more than just Standard Special moves (B moves). Kirby’s moves from his games are always dynamic. In Melee, by just coping and replacing the B move, Kirby’s move aren’t. The root of this problem is found in the construction of each individual character. Fixing the all characters relieves some of the pressure in this area. But why can’t Kirby take and replace other moves from his enemies? Bottom line. I want Fox’s shine.</li>
<li>Kirby should take on properties of his enemies when he takes their powers. This means everything from their taught, to their voice, to their weight and “floatyness” to some degree.</li>
<li>Kirby’s powers SHOULD NOT be expelled randomly when taking damage. Holding and using powers is what Kirby is. I don’t want to randomly lose all my hard work getting powers because Fox or Falco shot me with a laser. I can’t dodge them all! The only way this should stay in is if the swallow attack where easier to pull off. Maybe something as simple as a combo from a grab. Sounds dangerous.</li>
<li>Kirby should be able to take powers from items and assist characters in addition to characters.</li>
<li>Kirby should be able to combine powers. Now I understand that this sounds like a lot of work. But, it’s not as complicated as it seems. Not all combinations of powers need to yield a unique result. Ultimately, this would be icing on the cake.</li>
</ul>
Check these videos out if you need inspiration.

<a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=1vdlEH0yFbg">Video 1</a>
<a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=0TWaPdPgX9s">Video 2</a>

And now for some matches of me and some of my friends. You can see just how weak Kirby is. I use my B moves as best I can, but overall Kirby is just not good enough. The Sheik needle play in the beginning of match 2 is hilarious though.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhkkxYKUt6A">Match 1</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhkkxYKUt6A">Match 2</a>

<a href="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtG3B-aO_E0">Match 3</a>

Too strong the first time. Too weak the second. Third times a charm? Come one Sakurai!
 

Homelessvagrant

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Nice post yet again kirbykid, happy to see today's updates on the lovable pink blob we all know and love. But more so happy your still doing the move set pickups. Keep up the good work. It's these kinds of updates that make me look much more forward to brawl. Can't wait for the move list on pika.
 

LaniusShrike

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I rather enjoy these sorts of analysis. I don't fully agree with all of your alterations, but for the most part you are spot on. I never understood why his sucking ability sucked so much, yet couldn't even suck in multiple objects. Back in the day, the final cutter rocked pretty with spiking, and the hammer ability is just plain dismal. It's just an added smash attack and aerial move... and not a very good one. I'd prefer for that move to just be replaced at this point. Let Dedede have the hammertime.
 

Shadow_Kirby

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Kirby!!!!

Alright, taking powers from items would be strange..... But Kirby should be able to suck them up and grab them....
Stone ideas are great
The Cutter should be REALLY fast, fast like Meta-Knight sword fast....... With a longer projectile range. But in a video or picture (not quite sure which) it showed Kirby on the ground pulling out his cutter and slashing an enemy behind him.....
The hammer move should be changed to a different attack.
I think Kirby's moveset should be him randomly changing powers.
No offense but those were very boring fights.......
 

Homelessvagrant

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I like those kind of fights. watching smash masters is like a sport though I have to say though kirbykid you kinda contradicted yourself by saying kirby is weak before completely mutulating your top tier opponent shiek.

I think it would be cool if maybe there was two kirby selections (each with their own B attacks and move). But that's probably just a dumb idea.
 

kirbykid

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I'd prefer for that move to just be replaced at this point. Let Dedede have the hammertime.
But it looks like it's already in brawl. :(

Alright, taking powers from items would be strange..... But Kirby should be able to suck them up and grab them....
The hammer move should be changed to a different attack.
I think Kirby's moveset should be him randomly changing powers.
No offense but those were very boring fights.......
I was thinking more along the lines of, Kirby can suck up "power trophies" from his old games to get powers of specific enemies. So the same idea could be applied to Brawl. But you're right about the sucking up and grabbing items thing.

The new hammer I described would be pretty sweet. Did you see Kirby using it in video 2?

You idea for the Kirby move set is kind of what his B moves are like already. The video you showed was just chaos. Like MvC2.

I think the matches are hilarious and interesting. If you think they're boring, blame Sakurai for making Kirby so low tier. Low tiers are boring.


I like those kind of fights. watching smash masters is like a sport though I have to say though kirbykid you kinda contradicted yourself by saying kirby is weak before completely mutulating your top tier opponent shiek.

I think it would be cool if maybe there was two kirby selections (each with their own B attacks and move). But that's probably just a dumb idea.
Those are rare cases that will never happen again. In a real fight. My opponents with NEVER come to the edge, ESPECIALLY after getting owned there once.

Actually, tha'ts not a dumb idea at all. Here's what I had in mind.

One Kirby would be like we know him now. When he copies powers he gets the hats of the Melee characters and their moves.

The second character could only get powers that he had from his old games (like in video 1 and 2). So insead of getting Mario's fire balls, he would get his fire power.

That's an easy way to have two different Kirby's.
 

Sneaky 2.0

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But it looks like it's already in brawl. :(



I was thinking more along the lines of, Kirby can suck up "power trophies" from his old games to get powers of specific enemies. So the same idea could be applied to Brawl. But you're right about the sucking up and grabbing items thing.

The new hammer I described would be pretty sweet. Did you see Kirby using it in video 2?

You idea for the Kirby move set is kind of what his B moves are like already. The video you showed was just chaos. Like MvC2.

I think the matches are hilarious and interesting. If you think they're boring, blame Sakurai for making Kirby so low tier. Low tiers are boring.




Those are rare cases that will never happen again. In a real fight. My opponents with NEVER come to the edge, ESPECIALLY after getting owned there once.

Actually, tha'ts not a dumb idea at all. Here's what I had in mind.

One Kirby would be like we know him now. When he copies powers he gets the hats of the Melee characters and their moves.

The second character could only get powers that he had from his old games (like in video 1 and 2). So insead of getting Mario's fire balls, he would get his fire power.

That's an easy way to have two different Kirby's.
Doesn't Kirby already have his fire power when he does his dash attack?
 

X-x-Dyce-x-X

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I was a huge Kirby fan in the SSB64 days, but now I'm completely turned off to him for Melee. Kudos to you keeping pace with one of the worst characters in the game KirbyKid! My hat's off to you. Hopefully, we'll get a Kirby that's at least High Tier in Brawl (not Top Tier; hell, I'll even settle for Middle Tier).

I liked everything you were saying and everything even made sense... up until you got carried away with the sucking and copy ability. I feel Kirby should also take one the best of his opponents' moves, but to take on EVERYTHING about them is pretty rediculous. Why not just start the match as someone else? I say the B move should take on their best powers over the B slot (no matter what it is, even if that move just so happens to be another recovery) and maybe his some of his A attacks could be altered a wee bit.

Like the dash attack could go back to Kirby just diving at you when powerless, but charge up and expell fire when he absorbs Captain Falcon or Mario/Luigi. Also, other moves could change as well, like maybe his nAir and standard A combo could change it's form and ability from power-up to power-up as well. Nothing big, just the little changes that would send Kirby on the right track to being the Super Star we all know and love.
 

Knightcrawler

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I'd say this was a good article and I agree on most points. However, taking powers from items, assist trophies, and Pokemon (which I assume you also meant to include) is a bit much, and combining powers is a TON much. Maybe from a gameplay standpoint it'd be fine, but seriously the workload involved would be mind-boggling. If you combine the number of items, assist trophies, Pokemon, and player characters, you'd have well over a hundred powers. Maybe even somewhere around 500+ if most trophies are going to become assist trophies. Now if you can combine powers, this makes 10,000+ (100^2) - 250,000+ (500^2) powers. That's a LOT of hats to model, program, and balance. Combine THAT with the fact that you want to be able to steal multiple powers from every playable character and we could be getting somewhere close to half a million powers. Now if it were JUST player characters and you could only take one power from each, we'd have 1,600 powers for 40 characters. If you could take any of their B moves, that'd make it 25,600 powers. Unfortunately, neither are manageable numbers.

Giving him the ability to pick up items (instead of getting powers from them) with his suck power would increase his strength as the number of items increases on the stage. Some character in SSBM are stronger with items than without them. If Sakurai wants to make item matches competitively playable, he needs to someone give all characters some kind of special ability with items so as not to change the balance. Fast characters can get to choice items more quickly, so that's their advantage. Perhaps slow characters can't have items knocked out of their hands, or perhaps they can steal items from other characters when they grab them (grabbing the character, then pressing the grab button again). Characters in the middle range might get special abilities regarding items, double item attacks/uses (Link double Heart Container? :-P), have unflinching item attacks (maybe this should be for heavy?), etc..

Anyway back on track, if Kirby can pick up items with his suck, he should be able to have them all knocked out if he doesn't press down to randomly get one in time. They'd all fly out as stars with no hitboxes and then revert to normal items. If Kirby presses down with multiple items and/or potential powers, he'd gain one of them randomly and the rest would fly out a short distance as stars with hitboxes and return to normal items/player characters (like dropping a lot of items at once, but with no bouncing). This could potentially be used to link combos, although with Kirby's limited mobility and increased hitbox after an inhale this would be less likely. He can absorb food a few frames after inhaling them, but he can't inhale multiple maxim tomatoes or heart containers (they'd cancel his inhale like a Beam Saber would). A cool ability would be if when Kirby ejects a power, it'd stick at about the same elevation as his mouth in the sky for a few seconds before shooting off into the background. It'd have a hitbox when being ejected, but not while stationary. It would allow Kirby to juggle multiple powers or use his swallow offensively and then regain his power. The star would be the same color as him, so other Kirbies wouldn't be able to use it.

Oh, but the ability to steal multiple powers would be cool. Pressing down would be get you their down B power, pressing B would get you their neutral B power, pressing down and B would get you their tilt/smash B power. Taking their recoveries would probably be broken...

Another potential change: What if when he waddles around after an inhale but before absorbing, he had longer arms/legs etc., increasing the range of his attacks?
 

X-x-Dyce-x-X

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^^^^
Wow... 500+? Now that's just retarted. There were barely half of that many trophies in Melee, and they were only eye candy. You expect Sora to program 500+ different characters? Go take some ritalin, or take a nap, or stop smoking that crack, and come see us in the morning.
 

kirbykid

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I was a huge Kirby fan in the SSB64 days, but now I'm completely turned off to him for Melee. Kudos to you keeping pace with one of the worst characters in the game KirbyKid! My hat's off to you. Hopefully, we'll get a Kirby that's at least High Tier in Brawl (not Top Tier; hell, I'll even settle for Middle Tier).

I liked everything you were saying and everything even made sense... up until you got carried away with the sucking and copy ability. I feel Kirby should also take one the best of his opponents' moves, but to take on EVERYTHING about them is pretty rediculous. Why not just start the match as someone else? I say the B move should take on their best powers over the B slot (no matter what it is, even if that move just so happens to be another recovery) and maybe his some of his A attacks could be altered a wee bit.

Like the dash attack could go back to Kirby just diving at you when powerless, but charge up and expell fire when he absorbs Captain Falcon or Mario/Luigi. Also, other moves could change as well, like maybe his nAir and standard A combo could change it's form and ability from power-up to power-up as well. Nothing big, just the little changes that would send Kirby on the right track to being the Super Star we all know and love.
Thanks for the kudos. I would even settle for Middle Tier if it weren't for my believe that Sakruai can make everyone High to Top tier. Clearly my articles make this fact apparent, and I'm only discussing B moves.

I didn't suggest taking everything about the enemies. Of course it's all part of the balance. But being able to fast fall with Fox's powers is more reasonable. When you say "best powers" that's clearly up to debate. What's best for one character may not be best for Kirby, or all Kirby players, or as a replacement for his swallow ability. As the game changes and grows, I don't want to be stuck in the past with what they thought was the "best" many years down the line. Altering the A moves is what I was thinking too. I restricted the article to only talking about Special moves. It was getting very long very quickly and I had to put the kibosh down somwhere.

Your A move change suggestion is right on! :)

I'd say this was a good article and I agree on most points. However, taking powers from items, assist trophies, and Pokemon (which I assume you also meant to include) is a bit much, and combining powers is a TON much. Maybe from a gameplay standpoint it'd be fine, but seriously the workload involved would be mind-boggling. If you combine the number of items, assist trophies, Pokemon, and player characters, you'd have well over a hundred powers. Maybe even somewhere around 500+ if most trophies are going to become assist trophies. Now if you can combine powers, this makes 10,000+ (100^2) - 250,000+ (500^2) powers. That's a LOT of hats to model, program, and balance. Combine THAT with the fact that you want to be able to steal multiple powers from every playable character and we could be getting somewhere close to half a million powers. Now if it were JUST player characters and you could only take one power from each, we'd have 1,600 powers for 40 characters. If you could take any of their B moves, that'd make it 25,600 powers. Unfortunately, neither are manageable numbers.

Giving him the ability to pick up items (instead of getting powers from them) with his suck power would increase his strength as the number of items increases on the stage. Some character in SSBM are stronger with items than without them. If Sakurai wants to make item matches competitively playable, he needs to someone give all characters some kind of special ability with items so as not to change the balance. Fast characters can get to choice items more quickly, so that's their advantage. Perhaps slow characters can't have items knocked out of their hands, or perhaps they can steal items from other characters when they grab them (grabbing the character, then pressing the grab button again). Characters in the middle range might get special abilities regarding items, double item attacks/uses (Link double Heart Container? :-P), have unflinching item attacks (maybe this should be for heavy?), etc..

Anyway back on track, if Kirby can pick up items with his suck, he should be able to have them all knocked out if he doesn't press down to randomly get one in time. They'd all fly out as stars with no hitboxes and then revert to normal items. If Kirby presses down with multiple items and/or potential powers, he'd gain one of them randomly and the rest would fly out a short distance as stars with hitboxes and return to normal items/player characters (like dropping a lot of items at once, but with no bouncing). This could potentially be used to link combos, although with Kirby's limited mobility and increased hitbox after an inhale this would be less likely. He can absorb food a few frames after inhaling them, but he can't inhale multiple maxim tomatoes or heart containers (they'd cancel his inhale like a Beam Saber would). A cool ability would be if when Kirby ejects a power, it'd stick at about the same elevation as his mouth in the sky for a few seconds before shooting off into the background. It'd have a hitbox when being ejected, but not while stationary. It would allow Kirby to juggle multiple powers or use his swallow offensively and then regain his power. The star would be the same color as him, so other Kirbies wouldn't be able to use it.

Oh, but the ability to steal multiple powers would be cool. Pressing down would be get you their down B power, pressing B would get you their neutral B power, pressing down and B would get you their tilt/smash B power. Taking their recoveries would probably be broken...

Another potential change: What if when he waddles around after an inhale but before absorbing, he had longer arms/legs etc., increasing the range of his attacks?
I'm aware of what my suggestions may have suggested. But keep this in mind. All the suggestion aren't necessarily stackable. They're simple ideas to get your brains Kranking to a Kirby tune. Combining powers was suggested assuming that Kirby could only take one power per character, and not necessarily take unique powers from any other source.

Thanks for doing the math though. I love math. Did you look at Video 1? In Kirby64 some of the power combination yielded the same result, didn't have a combination, or yielded a useless result. Clearly it's a lot of work to do combinations. This is why it would be easy to settle with just a few creative combinations.

You areas about item-balance were pretty intriguing. Might I say awesome. This is exactly the kind of thinking that I encourage. Heavy characters being able to grab items directly from opponents is quite genius.

I don't know how practically juggling powers would be, but it sounds interesting. It's my believe that Brawl should be balanced for 1v1 first and the rest of the games balance would be nearly taken care of in the process.

Good comments!
 

kirbykid

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^^^^
Wow... 500+? Now that's just retarted. There were barely half of that many trophies in Melee, and they were only eye candy. You expect Sora to program 500+ different characters? Go take some ritalin, or take a nap, or stop smoking that crack, and come see us in the morning.
ummm no one expects Sakurai to do....

you know what....

you get a face :confused:
 

Oldskool

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Aug 9, 2007
Messages
332
And THIS is why I'm going to start maining Pit unless Sakurai can get his act together and fix HIS characters. I'm hoping this is the last game so he can make sure he doesn't screw up his characters.
 

Sneaky 2.0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
108
3DS FC
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And THIS is why I'm going to start maining Pit unless Sakurai can get his act together and fix HIS characters. I'm hoping this is the last game so he can make sure he doesn't screw up his characters.
The guy's not an egotist, he wouldn't have put all of that work detailing other characters if he was only concerned for his own creation.
 

Sneaky 2.0

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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^^^^
Wow... 500+? Now that's just retarted. There were barely half of that many trophies in Melee, and they were only eye candy. You expect Sora to program 500+ different characters? Go take some ritalin, or take a nap, or stop smoking that crack, and come see us in the morning.
Calm down. The guy who said 500+ Assist Trophies was just fiddling around with numbers. We know they're invincible, but imagine if Kirby could obtain their powers in some sort of fashion. They could be hidden ones from a Copy Chance Wheel, from absorbing more than one player. Even if you don't get otherwise unobtainable powers, the game could cycle through all of the hats Kirby can obtain through stealing powers. Suppose Kirby swallowed up both Fox and Bowser at the same time. He could end up getting a hat such as Mario's or Pikachu's from a random number generator. Whether or not such a method should apply to still-locked characters, i'm not sure of.
 

Sneaky 2.0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
108
3DS FC
2724-1598-9725
wow you guys make me dizzy:dizzy:
They have medicines for that. As well as medicine for ranters (the face thing that Dyce got). And those who focus a little too much on math (apparently it's Ritalin or something). Unfortunately, there's no medicine for Kirbykid's brainstorms. I just can't stop reading them. :)

You get my Copy Chance Wheel explanation, right? I got the inspiration from the old school Kirby games and Kirby Air Ride.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Oct 21, 2002
Messages
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Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about Sneaky2.0.

Keep up the good thinking.
 

Knightcrawler

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
224
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Orange county, CA, USA
^^^^
Wow... 500+? Now that's just retarted. There were barely half of that many trophies in Melee, and they were only eye candy. You expect Sora to program 500+ different characters? Go take some ritalin, or take a nap, or stop smoking that crack, and come see us in the morning.
40 or so characters + 50 or so items + 150 or so Pokemon (he could easily have ALL of them by just porting in Battle Revolution's models and animations) + 150 or so Assist Trophies = ~400. The number could easily sway one way or another, especially if you add in all the single-player or arena-specific enemies which could make appearances in multi-player. But yes, I was just fiddling with numbers. To be honest I doubt that Kirby will be able to absorb either Pokemon or Assist Trophies because that would make him able to attack them while other characters wouldn't (for many of them).

Hmmm yeah combinations would be possible if some yielded the same results. In my simple math I did up there, Fireball x Arrow was counted separately from Arrow x Fireball. I figured it made so little difference that there was no need to go into that. But if Bomb x Fireball, Ball Bomb x Fireball, and Turnip x Fireball all had Kirby pulling out Bob-bombs, and you count that the reverse orders would have the same effects, the number becomes manageable indeed (only a few hundred hats). :)

Thanks for the compliments, KirbyKid. :)
 

Smarty Guy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
3
Hey, I'm new here, so please be nice to me.

Anyways, I think that every smasher should correspond to one of the powers that Kirby already has in his games.

Like if you sucked in Link, Roy, or Marth, you'd get the sword power; or if you ate Shiek, you'd get the ninja power; see what I'm saying?
 

Sneaky 2.0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
108
3DS FC
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So Kirby has a powerup that lets him do DK's Giant Punch, or Ivysaur's Bullet Seed? O_o

I want to find a list all of a sudden, said list displaying Kirby's powers.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
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Messages
486
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The second character could only get powers that he had from his old games (like in video 1 and 2). So insead of getting Mario's fire balls, he would get his fire power.

That's an easy way to have two different Kirby's.
Smart Guy, that's precisely what I've said here ^. But none the less, that's a very intriguing idea. If you think Kirby doesn't have enough character to put into brawl, then perhaps there needs to be multiple Kirbys.

Anything that brings us closer to Ninja Kirby right? :grin:
 

Pyroloserkid

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
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Ontario
I really love all your ideas for Kirby. Kirby NEEDS to be improved, and I mean NEEDS.
I used to main kirby in 64 back before I knew he was God Tier. Then when I starting facing people named Johns, I decided to use Capt. Falcon instead.

Then Melee came out and I tried using Kirby and was just disgusted. One of my favourite ideas of yours would have to be the hammer improvement. I saw what you meant after I watched the video, and I think it'd be a great idea. Along with Kirby being able to inhale anything pretty much. Kirby should be able to inhale other things, besides opponents, and if they don't have powers, Kirby can spit them out as stars and use them to attack.

Kirby needs to be improved. I mean, he's Sakurai's first creation, he deserves some credit. We haven't seen much of Kirby yet, and I think out of special moves, we've only seen the mid-air hammer. It looks the same, but if Sakurai didn't improve that, hopefully he's worked on Kirby's other areas.
 

Oldskool

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
332
The guy's not an egotist, he wouldn't have put all of that work detailing other characters if he was only concerned for his own creation.
That really has nothing to do with it, he can remodeled the characters how he wants, if he didn't care about Kirby he wouldn't have even changed him at all for Brawl (which Kirby did change) or added Meta Knight or give a bias to Dedede suggestions on the journal entries or stated the fact that he would embrace the chance to work with his creations once again.
 

Homelessvagrant

Smash Lord
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Aug 26, 2007
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right here...at smashboards
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I beleieve a relation suck power would just make sense anyway. Why should kirby have to look like that ugly mug Bowser when the ability looks just like the fire ability. Kid icarus's ability is almost like Angel ability. Fox's ability reminds me of laser and while characters like marth and Roy's ability has little in common with the sword ability, it's still a sword none the less right?

The question with another kirby is that what would that Kirby look like? Would he be given a different color code for forms? what he just have a different design? These are questions to ask but when it all comes down to it I want representation for the wheel and missile ability.
 

Metal B

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
228
Location
Germany
Did anybody noticed that Kirby could charge up his hammer in video 2?
Its on 1:30. He also burnd his enemy away!

That would be great for Brawl!
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
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Texas
hey kirbykid did you really fight in these video??:confused:
Yes, that is indeed me. There aren't many Kirby video on the internet to begin with. Then, out of those, there are very many where the match is taken seriously. Then out of those... for the most part you just have my videos. There are others, but they're few.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
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Messages
486
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Texas
Did anybody noticed that Kirby could charge up his hammer in video 2?
Its on 1:30. He also burnd his enemy away!

That would be great for Brawl!
Just about everything in the second video is PURE GOLD. If the hammer were like that, I would take it in a heartbeat.
 
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