New Ledgegrabbing Mechanic Confirmed

[LancerStaff]

Gotta say that after watching RoM7 and a few matches at Xanadu, I'm more excited than ever for these changes to be ours to experiment with.

It does make you think though, animation wise popping characters up and off the ledge might look very strange based on the angle of approach, so I kinda have to wonder if it will only apply certain angles, or if the character attempting to edge-hog will be popped off in different ways based on that angle.

So say someone goes off the edge to edge-hog, and the recovering character is coming down onto the ledge (not coming up from the bottom) will that result in the edge-hogging character being popped towards the bottom of the screen? Just a thought.

I'd guess when coming from underneath the edgehog will get popped up, and from above they'll get knocked down if they decided to make two animations.

 

[DaDavid]

That's what I'm assuming. Curious what a player's options will be in the "popped off" stage. I'd assume they have full mobility, but I could see them not having their jumps restored, provided they use one to hog.

 

[TeddyRoseKidd]

Sounds Alright. I hope it doesnt kill edge hogging tho or just get rid of edge hogging entirely

This is a welcomed change.

Face it, most of what makes Smash "competitive" are cheap exploits. Why would you be in favor of edge hogging? It makes absolutely no sense.

Cheap Exploits??? Some characters have extremely hard ko moves to land and sometimes can only rival other characters with edge hogs. Not really an exploit at all. Its using whats possible for a ko. Would you rather have every kill be the same old just build up percentage till someone is on a death percentages. The thing that builds up hype in the smash battles and makes them so unpredictable is the fact that you can lose your life at any moment and some players can do it very well. Now they can make it harder to edge hog sure but getting rid of edge hogging all together would be lame as chuck.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Calling edge-hogging cheap is like calling it cheap when a basketball player gets a breakaway and buries a layup without defenders around. In both cases the person on offense has the advantage due to skill, or a mistake by the defender. If you're in a position to get edge hogged, that's your own fault.

 

[Mike_Tha_Hero]

Cheap Exploits??? Some characters have extremely hard ko moves to land and sometimes can only rival other characters with edge hogs. Not really an exploit at all. Its using whats possible for a ko. Would you rather have every kill be the same old just build up percentage till someone is on a death percentages. The thing that builds up hype in the smash battles and makes them so unpredictable is the fact that you can lose your life at any moment and some players can do it very well. Now they can make it harder to edge hog sure but getting rid of edge hogging all together would be lame as chuck.

Regardless of whether or not you think tradition KOs are "boring", they're what the game is built on. Anything deviant to that is an exploit.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Regardless of whether or not you think tradition KOs are "boring", they're what the game is built on. Anything deviant to that is an exploit.

And what is wrong with exploits, exactly? Should we all sit there and fsmash as intended so as to not be "cheap"?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

*didn't use ledge-hogging*

*no ****s were given*

 

[Morbi]

Regardless of whether or not you think tradition KOs are "boring", they're what the game is built on. Anything deviant to that is an exploit.

That notion is entirely fallacious as edge-hogging was quite clearly intended.

 

[Hong]

I am pretty excited about the new ledge mechanics, myself.I like everything about it.

The reduced invincibility.
The reduction of salvation they provided.
The ability to kick people off of a ledge (by the way, can confirm you get your jump back).

Not like I thought the way they were before was bad, but it doesn't mean I'm opposed to trying something new. Over on /r/smashbros we've already thought of many methods for putting the recovering player at a disadvantage, and ways to nullify those methods, and ways to nullify the nullification. It is still so deep and sophisticated, in that sense. I like that while you can more easily grab the ledge, you are still forced to make a decision pretty quickly due to invulnerability decay.

As a competitive player, this is one of the things I am looking forward to most in Smash 4. Can't wait until we get this game in our hands and we can spend some time in the lab to relearn everything we know about ledges, which are a HUGE part of our metagame.

 

[Pyra]

I watched the Nintendo Treehouse's showcase on Smash Wii U and they showed off the new ledge mechanics.
It's an interesting thing to see and I really like it. As Hong said, you get your jump back if you're popped off.
Lots of things can happen because of being popped off, too.

 

[LancerStaff]

That notion is entirely fallacious as edge-hogging was quite clearly intended.

Probably wasn't ment to be used as a way to actively punish recovery. You know why it's so easy to edgeguard in Melee? Wavedashing. You weren't intended to basically insta-grab the ledge once you ran up to it. Then they added the ability to grab while facing both ways in Brawl, and made it harder to edgeguard to compensate. Now Sakurai just decided to cut it so gimmicky recoveries wouldn't be horrible, but that's after supposedly all the gimmicky recoveries were cut.

Intentional? Yes. But so was 64-style L-canceling, and that got cut by Melee.

(And before anybody asks about the Wavedashing, it was found, not outright put in. End of discussion.)

 

[Mike_Tha_Hero]

That notion is entirely fallacious as edge-hogging was quite clearly intended.

Says who?

 

[Morbi]

Says who?

Objective fact; it is in the game, just in case you had not noticed.

 

[ScottyWK]

Calling edge-hogging an exploit is asinine. It's like the friend that gets mad at you for meteor-smashing him all the time and calling those moves "cheap." They aren't "cheap" if there are ways to avoid them, which there ARE ways to avoid being edge-hogged.

 

[sunshinesan]

C-sticks are cheap too. Instead of tapping a stick and pressing a button. You now only have to tap a stick, that's literally half the work!
Anyway, I think scrubs look at edgehogging like it's a glass half empty. When I first found out about edge-hogging. I had 2 reactions.
"That's really funny." and ", now to use it and get better/embarrass people!"

 

[Malex]

I'm interested in exactly the recovery frames involved. In previous games, you could release from the edge immediately. My interest predominantly surrounds two things.

1. Recovery frames on being edge trumped
2. Recovery frames on edge grab

In the first case, it doesn't necessarily seem punishable, but it seems to me that it "resets" the edge game, especially against weaker recoverers like little mac.

In the second case, if recovery frames on edge grab are significant, a potentially safe edge option may be to purposely edge trump.

Will need actual data, methinks

 

[LancerStaff]

Objective fact; it is in the game, just in case you had not noticed.

But was it supposed to be that powerful with the addition of Wavedashing? Melee's ledge mechanics just clash with the generally forgiving nature of SSB. I don't think SSB4's change over Brawl's nerfed edgeguarding was entirely necessary, but this might lead to something more interesting then dashing for a ledge.

 

[JediLink]

Says who?

Edge Hog - Hung from edge to prevent opponent from doing the same. - x2500

There's an ingame bonus for doing it. It's intended.

 

[Malex]

Ok, here's what I was able to piece together from grand finals. Data is approximate. 60 fps assumed. (Looked at youtube clip frame by frame using rowvid, rounded to nearest whole frame)
Note: Recovery frames are typically used to define frames of an attack action that occur after the hit boxes disappear, but before more commands can be input. I am using it as a blanket term for when commands cannot be input as part of any action.

Spoiler: Edge Grab Data

ZSS - Edge Grabs

1. 0.26 seconds -> 16 frames
   • 7:32
     
   • Kirby F-tils Zamus. She freefalls directly into an edge grab.
   • Ledge Jumps.
     
   • No noticeable pause.
2. 0.08 seconds -> 5 frames
   • 6:43
   • Zamus is recovering and tethers the edge.
   • She swings down and seemingly instantly goes into a ledge jump.
   • Perhaps your ledge commands can be entered while tethered?
3. 0.04 seconds -> 2 frames
   • 6:32
   • Zamus is recovering and tethers the edge.
   • She swings down and seemingly instantly goes into a ledge attack.
   • Evidence for ledge commands input while tethered
4. 0.60 seconds -> 36 frames
   • 1:20
   • Kirby f-tils Zamus away from the edge, Zamus ^Bs to edge.
   • Ledge attacks.
     
   • Small pause
5. 0.36 seconds -> 22 frames
   • 0:02
   • Zamus retreats from Kirby to force sudden death. Falls onto edge.
   • Ledge drops.
     
   • Potentially a pause here.

Kirby - Edge Grabs

1. 0.81 seconds -> 49 frames
   • 5:57
   • Kirby recovering with air jumps grabs onto ledge.
   • Ledge drop
     
   • Noticeable pause
2. 0.50 seconds -> 30 frames
   • 3:00
   • Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and falls onto ledge.
   • Ledge jump
     
   • Seems like there is a small pause
3. 0.20 seconds -> 12 frames
   • 2:13
   • Kirby recovering with ^B.
     
   • Unsure of what happens here. Ledge stand into immediate jump?
     
   • No noticeable pause.
4. 0.48 seconds -> 29 frames
   • 1:56
   • Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and recovers onto ledge.
   • Ledge drop.
   • Feels like a pause here.
5. 0.26 seconds -> 16 frames
   • 1:34
   • Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and air jumps to ledge.
   • Ledge drop.
   • No noticeable pause.

Personal interpretation of data and questions in response to it:

1. Ledge commands can be input while tethered for auto-execution at edge grab.
   • Is the swing from tether recovery a constant?
   • What if you input commands at different times?
   • Are tether recoveries identical?
   • Do tether recoveries edge trump?
   • Can you trump a tether?
2. The minimum time appears to be in the neighborhood of 12 frames. I believe there are recovery frames and that this is a good approximation of their duration. Assuming that this is correct.
   • Can a player be trumped during their invincibility?
   • Can a player be trumped during their 12 recovery frames?

When I get a chance, I will analyze trumping for similar data. As I previously suggested, I believe that a possible safe option to edge guard with is edge trumping. It is reliant on trumping to have a lengthy duration of recovery frames. You will need a trumped enemy to be in recovery frames for the 12 frames of your edge grab plus any additional time to reclaim the edge or use an attack.

Currently my stance on Edge Trumping being used as a competitive tactic is.......

Plausible. More data required.


Edit: MORE DATA ACQUIRED.

from http://youtu.be/d-UTsOGrqO4?t=12m13s

Timed from the edge grab until what I thought was falling animation, I could be wrong. YOU DO IT BETTER THEN.

Spoiler: Edge Trump Data

1. Mario Trumped
   • 0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
   • Double Jump +10 frames
2. Villager Trumped
   • 0.44 seconds -> 26 frames
   • Double Jump +24 frames
3. Mario Trumped
   • 0.48 seconds -> 29 frames
   • Double Jump +31 frames
4. Villager Trumped
   • 0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
   • Double jump +10 frames
5. Pit
   • 0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
   • Double jump +5 frames

So, the treehouse members probably weren't attempting to play optimally, as they were showing off the mechanic. What would be a reasonable assumption? I think that 0.4 seconds is reasonable. (For easy math, as edge grab is 0.2)

So, you would have 12 frames (1/5th of a second) to land an attack or reclaim stage position. Sounds reasonable. Kirby's weird ledge stand -> jump or whatever he does on his third edge grab is 0.28 seconds or 17 frames. I think this is about as close as I can look without reviewing the game myself to find the most optimal course of action to take in the situation.

 

[Ryan.]

I wasn't a fan of edge hogging, so glad that they did this. I forgot it was confirmed awhile ago in a pic of the day.

 

[Renji64]

I hope this doesn't lead to fights taking forever.

 

[Yodude57]

It means no more Edge hogging :O

Exactly that strategy was pretty cheap in my opinion.

 

[Zango]

I think this is a well-needed change. Edgeguarding always had a good risk vs. reward built into it; you could try to jump off the ledge after them, taking on the risk of your own death to almost guarantee your opponents, or you could play it safe and try to smash them from the ledge without putting yourself at risk.

Edge hogging just kind of threw this out the window. "u want to make dat guy fall 100% no chance with absolutely no risk to yourself? lel k".

It'll make keeping people off the stage a bit more interesting I think.

 

[Mike_Tha_Hero]

Objective fact; it is in the game, just in case you had not noticed.

What do you mean "it's in the game".

So is crouching up and down until the timer runs out. Doesn't mean that's how the game is to be played.

Edge Hog - Hung from edge to prevent opponent from doing the same. - x2500

There's an ingame bonus for doing it. It's intended.

Fair enough.

 

[Morbi]

What do you mean "it's in the game".

So is crouching up and down until the timer runs out. Doesn't mean that's how the game is to be played.

Fair enough.

So you mean to say that Sakurai did not intend to develop the ledge mechanics the way it was integrated? Using your original quote, you were asserting that edge-hogging was an exploit. It is not. You were intended to grab the edge when you jumped at it (no ****). It is really quite simple. I am not sure what you are not comprehending about the notion. I do agree that he did not foresee it being used the way it is used; however, that does not dramatically alter the intent.

 

[SNC Genesis]

I'm hoping this will turn out for the best, more then likely like someone said before this might turn less edge hogging, but that could also be a negative thing. Guess we just have to wait and find out.

 

[TeddyRoseKidd]

Regardless of whether or not you think tradition KOs are "boring", they're what the game is built on. Anything deviant to that is an exploit.

Who says just knocking someone off the stage was the only way intended to ko. The edge is there, grabbing it to keep your opponent from recovering is in no way an exploit. Its no different than jumping off the stage to spike someone. Wavedash was purposely left in the game by developers yet its considered an exploit bcuz people use it differently than intended. Fox's Shine wasnt meant to gimp but people use it I guess that is an exploit too. Sakurai made the cpu's in the game fight the way he intended them to fight. So is using any character differently from the way a cpu does an exploit. Bcuz its deviant from the intended way to use those characters. Melee without tech and edgehogging would become brawl. Dieing out.

 

[Yodude57]

I hope this doesn't lead to fights taking forever.

Well this mechanic seems to encourage you to go off the edge more to get kills, also coupled with the fact that recoveries are better this time, so hopefully it won't. But I've also heard that the blast zones are further so hopefully this balances out properly so that the time will be about the same.