New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[GunBuster]

Might as well give them a message about it, no harm in asking.

Well there's this,

well, that was written and had happened before smash Wii U was announced to be supporting DLC. and like I said, it's not like PM Roy and Mewtwo have vanished because of WiiU DLC. besides, "backporting" characters means literally remaking, say, megaman, as he works in smash wii U and adjusting him into PM. However an original design of a hypothetical "Project M Ridley" would be so very different from the design of a new hypothetical "sm4sh Ridley" (should sakurai choose to stop hating everything) that it would not even count as "backporting".

I believe it was either Nanobuds or Warchamp who said they were gonna wait until Smash 4 DLC was finished coming out, and that was in an old post either here or the PM Arts and Alts thread

I can most definitely say that they haven't said such a thing in this thread.

and it would take way too long to find it

burden of proof is on you, buddy.

 

[HalcyonDays]

Guilty pleasure of mine, but if we're talking possible non-swordsmen FE characters for PM...

There's always Roy's waifu (or one of his possible ones anyways, out of 6 if not more) presented as a sticker, in Brawl.

Look at that PH1R3! Roy would be proud!

Then again, the FE6-7 representation (and FE representation overall) is kind of there already, especially if they do plan on releasing Lyn one of these days.

 

[GunBuster]

There's always Roy's waifu

Lilina would be cool, and it'd be a great excuse to see spells as projectiles in PM that are similar to Robin's toolset in Sm4sh. but as ... someone... said last page, magic characters seem to be a little more difficult to "get right" in terms of design - be them OP as 3.02 Mewtwo was (psychic powers are basically magic okay jeez) or as Uncertain as Zelda who has arguably gone back and forth the most in terms of design out of the entire cast.

I did however suggest Lilina once, but the idea never took off.

And anyway, I like how Lyn would round out the representation of the protags of her own game in PM (lyn= herself obviously, Ike with the Hector alt, and Roy being Eliwood's son).

 

[Johnknight1]

I just don't think that he'd be worth the clone character slot. He adds no variety to the roster by just being another Mario with tweaked/reworked moves
And the current PM Mario IIRC has the best attributes of both versions of Mario - the damage output of Doc, with the recovery of Mario. Doc would only lose his recovery options and become slower if he was a clone.

This is all very fair and thoughtful logic. However, I don't prescribe to the idea that the clone engine is the definitive limit. I think eventually the other character engines will pull through and show us otherwise.

Hopefully they do continue to add DLC support to Smash 4, this one seems to be the perfect balance of fun and competitive-ness that all Nintendo's fans wanted in a Smash game.

As for your idea of being a "perfect harmony," it's not quite that. It's mostly just Mario with Doc characteristics. There are some distinct differences. Granted Doc was the least developed clone, but certain playstyle characteristics for him could certainly make him much different from Mario. It's hard to explain, but I think it would be cool to diverge their styles a bit and expand it. Mario has some cool stuff, but it feels like he should go either more towards that Doc style or a more 64-esk style to really open up his offense.

As a Mario player in PM, I would really love to see that happen.

When I said "perfectly made", I meant its like, the closest thing to a fully completed PSA of Ridley. Unless there's someone out there who really isn't satisfied with Bagan's Ridley and wants another completely different Ridley, there's not really much of a reason to make an all-new Ridley. Buut the PMDT is pretty adamant with their decision of making all of their content themselves, so I'm sure they'll do it just so they say that its theirs.

There's a lot of different directions you could go with Ridley. A LOT.

Yeah, I don't really know the Advance Wars series well either, so I have a little bit of bias when I say I'm not sure how or why people would want an AW Smash representative. Although Nintendo made Villager and Wii Fit Trainer Smash fighters, so I can't see why Andy or Sami wouldn't be decent choices. I can't say for sure who I'd want more though, since Andy's more or less the face of the series, while Sami is practically begging to be a Snake clone.

Andy is more of the face of the series yeah, but Sami would be safer for legal reasons (namely Andy appearing in future Smash games being a possibility). As for why people want them... there's the unit summoning aspect, all the cool weaponry, plus the possibility of driving a tank or helicopter. How cool could that be=???

Takamaru would be an awesome choice, but again, it was a conflict over which katana-wielding fighter deserves a character slot.

I'm not exactly high nor low on Takamaru's potential. He's kinda "ehhh that's okay I guess" to me. His source material is pretty basic too.

Samurai Goroh seems like a cooler/more fitting choice, seeing as Captain Falcon has no rival in Smash, he's the most original of Falcon's rogues gallery, and he'd likely be easier to create than Takamaru, if he was a semi-clone.

Agreed on Samurai Goroh. He's got that funny fun love antihero thing going for him. Plus Captain Falcon is awesome, and it would be cool to have another character with a shared fighter DNA as Falcon but another completely different skillset.

Lilina would be cool, and it'd be a great excuse to see spells as projectiles in PM that are similar to Robin's toolset in Sm4sh. but as ... someone... said last page, magic characters seem to be a little more difficult to "get right" in terms of design - be them OP as 3.02 Mewtwo was (psychic powers are basically magic okay jeez) or as Uncertain as Zelda who has arguably gone back and forth the most in terms of design out of the entire cast.

I did however suggest Lilina once, but the idea never took off.

I think there's a lot of overlap with Micaiah there, with Michaiah winning out due to her Lord/main character status.

 

[GunBuster]

Hopefully they do continue to add DLC support to Smash 4, this one seems to be the perfect balance of fun and competitive-ness that all Nintendo's fans wanted in a Smash game.

nah, man, have you tried Rivals of Aether.

As a Mario player in PM, I would really love to see (all) that happen.

yet splitting mario in between two character slots seems to be an absolute waste of resources that you are only really trying to justify with a "Bcuz Melee" mentality.
mario is one character. he doesn't need two slots when one does both better.

I'm not exactly high nor low on Takamaru's potential. He's kinda "ehhh that's okay I guess" to me. His source material is pretty basic too.

Takamaru has more potential than any fire emblem character ever did if we go simply from source material. 3 different projectiles, a katana, and a ninja vanish technique is more than enough to get started on I mean sure I prefer the Idea of Lyndis myself but at least give credit where credit is due

Andy is more of the face of the series yeah, but Sami would be safer for legal reasons (namely Andy appearing in future Smash games being a possibility).

I don't get this mentality.

Andy has certainly never struck me as the "main hero" of Advance Wars, it's always been Orange Star collectively. hell, he's largely absent for Dual Strike if I'm not mistaken. and I don't know where people are getting the idea that he's a possibility for smash 4 dlc. it may just be my pessimistic side talking, but anything nintendo counts as niche even in Japan has a snowball's chance in hell of even being mentioned again.

there's the unit summoning aspect, all the cool weaponry, plus the possibility of driving a tank or helicopter. How cool could that be=???

I'd be content with Andy/Sami just utilizing all of Snake's lost missile/RPG moves.

I think there's a lot of overlap with Micaiah there, with Michaiah winning out due to her Lord/main character status.

Obviously.

 

[Johnknight1]

nah, man, have you tried Rivals of Aether.

I was referring to the roster (my wording there was awful lol), but the game has gotten better thanks to DLC. The balance of the characters and the game has gotten way better via DLC and patching. Out of shield options were so OP early on. Diddy was the only character with multiple good ways to beat it, and now many characters can deal with it.

And yeah I got Rivals of Aether. It's pretty fantastic.

yet splitting mario in between two character slots seems to be an absolute waste of resources that you are only really trying to justify with a "Bcuz Melee" mentality.
mario is one character. he doesn't need two slots when one does both better.

Well given that there's limited time and effort required, it certainly isn't an issue there. There may be an issue with the "5 slots left" deal, but given that other developed character engines have found a way to theoretically make Brawl's roster as big as 100 characters (I've seen up to 84 in PSA mods), this barrier may no longer exist.

I'm by no means suggesting the PMDT add 100 characters, but adding another easy to add character or two wouldn't hurt anything. As for making Mario better or worse... experiments and playtesting and theory crafting can solve that. Mario's design is certainly better than his Melee or Brawl design (maybe his 64 design but I got 64 Mario bias since I get hyped when playing him in 64), but it feels to me as a Mario player like he lacks that "punch" that the rebuilt Ganondorf, Wolf, Roy, Ness, and Lucas have (for instance).

Takamaru has more potential than any fire emblem character ever did if we go simply from source material. 3 different projectiles, a katana, and a ninja vanish technique is more than enough to get started on I mean sure I prefer the Idea of Lyndis myself but at least give credit where credit is due

I don't remember him having 3 projectiles, unless they're all very similar (Then again Muramase Castle isn't a particularly memorable game). as for ninja vanish technique... Sheik in all her appearances and Greninja in Smash 4 already have that, as well as Mewtwo, Pikachu, and Pichu in a sense.

Katana... his game is ancient and he doesn't really show any swordplay style in it. Graphically the game lacks flair that 4th gen games had. Compare Muramase Castle's sister series Zelda from the 3rd gen to the 4th gen with how Link moves and fights and uses his sword and shield, and you'll see a graphical effects and swordplay style that Smash (64) clearly took cues from. Theoretically I know the potential there, but I don't see any personality or personality traits because of the source material being limited in such a way that its' age works as a negative. You really would have to dig deep and essentially recreate Takamaru to do this.

I don't know of Takamaru's spin off appearances though, so maybe there's something there I am unaware.

I don't get this mentality.

Andy has certainly never struck me as the "main hero" of Advance Wars, it's always been Orange Star collectively. hell, he's largely absent for Dual Strike if I'm not mistaken. and I don't know where people are getting the idea that he's a possibility for smash 4 dlc. it may just be my pessimistic side talking, but anything nintendo counts as niche even in Japan has a snowball's chance in hell of even being mentioned again.

Andy is the "main character" in that he is the most front and center, at least on the box art and whatnot. He's the character the most people are familiar with. I do agree Sami would be a better character to sell (more females seems like a good idea, although if we were talking Smash 4 both with one as an alt sounds better), but Andy trumps the popularity and the prominence in the aforementioned sense.

I do agree on the Smash 4 DLC part. People are too deep into it to see the full picture.

I'd be content with Andy/Sami just utilizing all of Snake's lost missile/RPG moves.

As would I, but such "empty shell characters" with a long list of moves and weapons can be taken in many directions in regards to their character design. It is what makes putting such pieces together very interesting for these kind of characters, yet from a design standpoint this can be exhausting, overwhelming, and the pieces are sometimes hard to put together.

Obviously.

If the PMDT were to add Michaiah, a Lilina alt color would be awesome. Of course I'm a sucker for FE6 stuff, so that would make me happy.

 

[qwertz143]

This is all very fair and thoughtful logic. However, I don't prescribe to the idea that the clone engine is the definitive limit. I think eventually the other character engines will pull through and show us otherwise.

Hopefully they do continue to add DLC support to Smash 4, this one seems to be the perfect balance of fun and competitive-ness that all Nintendo's fans wanted in a Smash game.

As for your idea of being a "perfect harmony," it's not quite that. It's mostly just Mario with Doc characteristics. There are some distinct differences. Granted Doc was the least developed clone, but certain playstyle characteristics for him could certainly make him much different from Mario. It's hard to explain, but I think it would be cool to diverge their styles a bit and expand it. Mario has some cool stuff, but it feels like he should go either more towards that Doc style or a more 64-esk style to really open up his offense.

As a Mario player in PM, I would really love to see that happen.

There's a lot of different directions you could go with Ridley. A LOT.

Andy is more of the face of the series yeah, but Sami would be safer for legal reasons (namely Andy appearing in future Smash games being a possibility). As for why people want them... there's the unit summoning aspect, all the cool weaponry, plus the possibility of driving a tank or helicopter. How cool could that be=???

I'm not exactly high nor low on Takamaru's potential. He's kinda "ehhh that's okay I guess" to me. His source material is pretty basic too.

Agreed on Samurai Goroh. He's got that funny fun love antihero thing going for him. Plus Captain Falcon is awesome, and it would be cool to have another character with a shared fighter DNA as Falcon but another completely different skillset.

I think there's a lot of overlap with Micaiah there, with Michaiah winning out due to her Lord/main character status.

Tbh i'd rather have pichu back, than another mario clone. Pichu could be worked around, have his neutral special changed and stuff while making him good, yet he can hurt himself. What changes could be implemented to Dr. Mario besides what's in melee?

 

[AceGamer]

We have enough Pokémon already (there's 7) and Pichu is not interesting in the least. If you were gonna add a Pokémon why not add something actually different (like a type we haven't had in Smash) instead of the baby version of the mascot and Dr. Mario never should have been a character in the 1st place, literally just Mario wearing different clothes lol. Oh and as for those 100 character builds you saw, that's BrawlEX a different clone maker that's more unstable than the clone engine. The clone engine actually uses the unused slots from Brawl so unless suddenly there turns to be more unused slots, the amount of characters that can be added won't be changing anytime soon.

 

[qwertz143]

We have enough Pokémon already (there's 7) and Pichu is not interesting in the least. If you were gonna add a Pokémon why not add something actually different (like a type we haven't had in Smash) instead of the baby version of the mascot and Dr. Mario never should have been a character in the 1st place, literally just Mario wearing different clothes lol. Oh and as for those 100 character builds you saw, that's BrawlEX a different clone maker that's more unstable than the clone engine. The clone engine actually uses the unused slots from Brawl so unless suddenly there turns to be more unused slots, the amount of characters that can be added won't be changing anytime soon.

I was just stating that pichu is a better choice than dr. mario. If we were going to add more pokemon i'd suggest Jirachi as a mewtwo clone. I'm currently making a model of Jirachi in maya but I have no idea how to make a PSA

 

[tasteless gentleman]

There are lots of ideas in brawl vault, personally i always edit some codage and then put some different character in a seperate personal PM set up.

So what was agreed on anyway? I been waiting for knuckles ever since that leak.

 

[AceGamer]

I was just stating that pichu is a better choice than dr. mario. If we were going to add more pokemon i'd suggest Jirachi as a mewtwo clone. I'm currently making a model of Jirachi in maya but I have no idea how to make a PSA

Jirachi huh, not my 1st choice but I can dig it lol

There are lots of ideas in brawl vault, personally i always edit some codage and then put some different character in a seperate personal PM set up.

So what was agreed on anyway? I been waiting for knuckles ever since that leak.

Not sure about anything being agreed on and we can't talk about the leaked characters

 

[GunBuster]

I was referring to the roster (my wording there was awful lol)

RoA still has it better.

Well given that there's limited time and effort required, it certainly isn't an issue there. There may be an issue with the "5 slots left" deal, but given that other developed character engines have found a way to theoretically make Brawl's roster as big as 100 characters (I've seen up to 84 in PSA mods), this barrier may no longer exist.

clone engine has 7 slots because it uses the 7 unused characters slots in brawl
everything else is still buggy as ****
and furthermore, the current roster is hard enough to keep in a decent state of balance, a potential 5 more is going to strain it more. it's called "keeping within bounds"

I don't remember him having 3 projectiles, unless they're all very similar (Then again Muramase Castle isn't a particularly memorable game).

knives
fireballs
Windmill swords

all had different properties, could also throw up to 3 at a time.

it's probably not memorable to you because it wasn't localized ever. i however enjoyed the 3DS VC release of it.

I also failed to mentioned he has a screen clearing lightning - themed ability.

Sheik in all her appearances and Greninja in Smash 4 already have that, as well as Mewtwo, Pikachu, and Pichu in a sense.

so? why is that an issue at all?

Katana... his game is ancient and he doesn't really show any swordplay style in it. Graphically the game lacks flair that 4th gen games had. Compare Muramase Castle's sister series Zelda from the 3rd gen to the 4th gen with how Link moves and fights and uses his sword and shield, and you'll see a graphical effects and swordplay style that Smash (64) clearly took cues from.

what are you talking about? it's exactly the same as any other NES game.
smash 64 link took cues from OoT and made the rest up.

Theoretically I know the potential there, but I don't see any personality or personality traits because of the source material being limited in such a way that its' age works as a negative. You really would have to dig deep and essentially recreate Takamaru to do this.

Captain Falcon.

Andy is the "main character" in that he is the most front and center, at least on the box art and whatnot.

the other members of Orange Star are just as prominent on the boxart, hell, he's only really front and center on the second game's case.

He's the character the most people are familiar with.

really not. again, Orange star collectively is in the actual spotlight.

actually it's probably more like "Midtanks" but you get my point.

As would I, but such "empty shell characters" with a long list of moves and weapons can be taken in many directions in regards to their character design.

I, however, am thoroughly impressed with the way the PMDT's version of Roy plays, and what a certain video may have made a certain character who also looked to be built like a clone may have looked. If it turns out to be optimal to build an Advance Wars character from Snake as a base then go right ahead, it fits thematically and they will definitely have more than enough done to them to make them feel completely new.

 

[qwertz143]

Jirachi huh, not my 1st choice but I can dig it lol

Yeah jirachi is my favorite pokemon. Well we'll see i'm not that good at coding and I'm not sure how models are imported for PSAs and stuff.

 

[Johnknight1]

RoA still has it better.

Apples and oranges.

clone engine has 7 slots because it uses the 7 unused characters slots in brawl
everything else is still buggy as ****

I don't follow them closely enough, but I do know there is some stability in them at least enough for experienced modders to use.

and furthermore, the current roster is hard enough to keep in a decent state of balance, a potential 5 more is going to strain it more. it's called "keeping within bounds"

Which is why clones would be easier. Clones, especially that of veterans, would take less time, effort, and people to pre-produce, test, balance, and bug fix than entirely new characters.

knives
fireballs
Windmill swords

Those are all unique and all, but we do already have Snake with knives and multiple characters with fireballs. The sword I think would be more interesting honestly if he wasn't a super traditional Samurai, because currently he sounds a lot less exciting a samurai character than Samurai Goroh, who would has tradition yet futuristic flair.

all had different properties, could also throw up to 3 at a time.

That move is something I've theorized, but I don't know for sure how well it would work in the contexts of the game (in regard to balance and range and all that jazz) until I saw it. Takamaru isn't the hardest character to visualize, but he is pretty hard for me to see working well and being functional in the game without being way too strong or way too weak because of weird moves like this.

it's probably not memorable to you because it wasn't localized ever. i however enjoyed the 3DS VC release of it.

Played and beat it on an emulator (don't call the Nintendo cops). It felt unmemorable because it was so linear and kind of stale. The challenge wasn't really there when you got the mechanics down. Compared to the original Legend of Zelda (one of my favorite games ever) with its' large open world, fun locales, side quests, loads of secrets, huge dungeons, and more challenging tasks and gameplay...

...it just feels like a redheaded step child to me. In this way, it is sort of reminiscent to Zelda II in a sense.

I also failed to mentioned he has a screen clearing lightning - themed ability.

That flash of lightning definitely could be of us.

so? why is that an issue at all?

It's kind of an issue because it's not "totally unique" (some PM fans want totally unique newcomers). However, it's also a positive because parts of such a move could be borrowed from Sheik, making it easier to develop.

what are you talking about? it's exactly the same as any other NES game.

Like... graphically there's not really much to take inspiration from. 2D overhead games lacked those cool graphical effects side scrollers like Mario and Metroid had in Gen 3. The lack of human sounding effects hurt too. The added grunts in ALTTP really added a sense of personality to Link that he didn't have in the original Legend of Zelda, as did a lot of the movement and more movement-based moves in Zelda II (which transfer over easily to Smash since they're both side scrollers). The added effects to moves, movement of Link, and more "characterized" sprites made Link feel more like a character and less of an avatar of sorts.

It's kind of a weird thing to say, but basically, in 2D overhead games characters felt more like a part of a game than a character on the NES. It wasn't until the SNES where I felt differently about it. Maybe it's just me, but those added personal animations and less homogenized looks among all the characters on screen went a long way. That graphical flair is a big reason why a game like Street Fighter II or Sonic 1 for example got popular.

smash 64 link took cues from OoT and made the rest up.

No it took some cues from Zelda II and A Link to the Past. The up air and down air specifically are moves from Zelda II, which is the only side scroller Zelda (sans small portions of the original Legend of Zelda).

Captain Falcon.

True, but Captain Falcon's look must have convinced Miyamoto, Sakurai and co. to make him essentially a Super Sentai.

the other members of Orange Star are just as prominent on the boxart, hell, he's only really front and center on the second game's case.

He's often in the center, which makes it easier to feel drawn to him. Plus it seems to be something the fanbase seems to have decided upon. To be honest... I don't even fully get it myself. I guess the people who started supporting the idea of an Advance Wars character after Melee/Advance Wars came out just picked Andy and ran with it.

I've actually never stopped to think about that or like that before. Huh. This was a rather productive question, because it gets you thinking. Kinda odd too since in Brawl Sakurai said he wanted "more females," which you think would have made the Advance Wars fans move their main support over to Sami. Or all the female characters in Smash 4 (Rosalina, Palutena, Lucina, the 3 avatar characters [Miis, Wii Fit Trainer, and Robin], Wendy as an alternate character for Bowser Jr.). Yet, the Advance Wars fans still stuck to Andy over Sami.

Truly an interesting phenomenon. Not often someone makes me ponder such things on fan reaction. You obviously are asking the right questions lol.

really not. again, Orange star collectively is in the actual spotlight.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm merely stating what I view as the public at large's stance on it.

I, however, am thoroughly impressed with the way the PMDT's version of Roy plays, and what a certain video may have made a certain character who also looked to be built like a clone may have looked. If it turns out to be optimal to build an Advance Wars character from Snake as a base then go right ahead, it fits thematically and they will definitely have more than enough done to them to make them feel completely new.

Agreed on Roy. The PMDT made an incredible build of Roy. PM Roy is simply put one of my favorite Smash character builds ever.

As for an Advance Wars character, I don't disagree with you. A Snake clone idea would work. It could very easily be well built, much like how Snake is in PM (and vanilla Brawl I might add).

But so could many other ideas. The PMDT could have any number of plans for an Advance Wars character if we got them.

In the end, I'm all for trusting the PMDT in whatever path they would or could go given how well they made/recrafted Roy, Mewtwo, Wario, DK, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Wolf, the PSI boys, and so many other characters.

 

[GunBuster]

Apples and oranges.

no, objectively.
It's the fluidity of melee with the accessibility of sm4sh with none of the long lag and arbitrary "techs" (L-canceling i'm looking at you) that are stuck in Melee, or that Project M still clings on to, with a cast of familiar yet unique characters that all have their own strengths and weaknesses without completely outclassing one another.

As much as I like Project M and respect what limits it, Rivals of Aether just does so many things right.

Which is why clones would be easier. Clones, especially that of veterans, would take less time, effort, and people to pre-produce, test, balance, and bug fix than entirely new characters.

this is something that gets repeated every page I swear
nobody's saying otherwise. Aiming for "luigified" clones is obviously a good mentality to keep for some of the CE slots.
what we ARE against here is just the Idea of copypasting mario for mario WITH DIFFERENCE "because melee", because at face value, it's just another mario. when other more appealing characters could be used and modelled off of the existing cast with the space left.

but even they want to add some completley new characters to the roster, especially apparently the animators.

True, but Captain Falcon's look must have convinced Miyamoto, Sakurai and co. to make him essentially a Super Sentai.

on the whole, Muramase castle actually feels a lot more like a genesis/megadrive game, in that it's supposed to be an "arcadey" experience that you are supposed to be able to have short multiple playthroughs of.
going to drop the whole takamaru thing anyway because >not lyn , I just feel the need to point out he's got more than enough to work with (from his own game and being a bonus character in samurai warriors 3). Also, Goroh really only ever jumped out of an assist trophy and flailed a sword around, so in my opinion he's got even LESS to work with.

captain falcon actually inherited his moveset from the characters that existed before Smash 64 became "smash" with the nintendo characters, "Dragon King: The Fighting Game".

 

[NXero]

I have always laughed at people that want Pichu back, but after playing Brawl Minus I wouldn't mind seeing him in PM with a similar moveset, thunder wave? (HoldB) and discharge(HoldDB) are fun, but new characters should have priority.

We have yet to see an entirely original character made by the PMDT, so I'm not sure what to expect, but with their experience on balancing and seeing how good their Mewtwo and Roy turned out I'm sure they'll be great. I'm expecting 3 entirely new movesets and 2 semi-clones if we're sticking to the 7 character limits. I just wish we got any news regarding new characters even if they're months away from being released

 

[Johnknight1]

I've had this idea for Pichu since about 2010 (partially borrowed from other ideas for Pichu I've read) where Pichu is the ultimate glass cannon; super high risk, super high reward, moreso than anyone on the roster, bar none. Keep Pichu's super light to where it gets KO'd early. Pichu also would still lack hitbox range to a certain extent.

However, on the flip side, you give Pichu great speed in the air and on land. You also give Pichu the best offense in the game, bar none. You also change Pichu's move properties to be more diverse; have its' highest stun moves have smaller hitboxes and its' lower stun moves have bigger hitboxes. This would further differentiate itself from Pikachu.

If balanced right, this could lead to spectacular hype and matches where a 3 to 1 stock lead could turn upside real quick either way when one player plays Pichu.

no, objectively.
It's the fluidity of melee with the accessibility of sm4sh with none of the long lag and arbitrary "techs" (L-canceling i'm looking at you) that are stuck in Melee, or that Project M still clings on to, with a cast of familiar yet unique characters that all have their own strengths and weaknesses without completely outclassing one another.

As much as I like Project M and respect what limits it, Rivals of Aether just does so many things right.

Rivals of Aether is also a lot simpler a game. Not that simpler or complex is "more right," just different. With Project M there's also the mod factor. If Project M had original coding and whatnot that was the entire base of the game, things would get done at a much quicker rate.

this is something that gets repeated every page I swear
nobody's saying otherwise. Aiming for "luigified" clones is obviously a good mentality to keep for some of the CE slots.
what we ARE against here is just the Idea of copypasting mario for mario WITH DIFFERENCE "because melee", because at face value, it's just another mario. when other more appealing characters could be used and modelled off of the existing cast with the space left.

My logic actually isn't "because melee" at all. If it's anything "because," it's "because 64" since I think Mario could really use some 64 movement and combos and whatnot to really spice up the rest of his game. I also can't emphasis enough how huge of a Smash 64 Mario fan I am. I freaking love that character so much and he feels so good to play.

In regards to what you could do with Doc, you could go in a heavier Mario-styled route with a lot of differences of moves and styles. The source material for him shouldn't be limited to Melee or what was done in the past with PM, but what could make the best character. With that in mind, I could see it being similar to a Marth and Roy situation. Maybe a bit of the Captain Falcon and Ganondorf situation could be mixed in.

but even they want to add some completely new characters to the roster, especially apparently the animators.

Right, and I don't disagree if they can do it. Obviously I would prefer a brand spanking new character over a clone of an equally good design. The thing is sometimes these new characters are more of a gamble with how good they'll turn out. There's again the matter of time.

I 100% get going that route over my "clone engine" route, but if the limits of the clone engine stop being the limits, it is something I strongly suggest the PMDT consider.

Also, Goroh really only ever jumped out of an assist trophy and flailed a sword around, so in my opinion he's got even LESS to work with.

That's because like all non-Saki/Kirby AT's he's pretty lazily made. Granted there is less physically to work with than Takamaru, but I feel stylistically due to Goroh's design there's quite a lot more appeal and excitement there.

captain falcon actually inherited his moveset from the characters that existed before Smash 64 became "smash" with the nintendo characters, "Dragon King: The Fighting Game".

That's been hypothesized and theorized based on visual evidence, but never confirmed since we have half a dozen photos to go off of. There's probably some truth to that, but we don't know how much.

Meanwhile Captain Falcon's flair, use of moves that shoot out fire, prominence of kicking moves, and speed clearly were inspired by Super Sentai. Those are all signatures of that show.

 

[Droß]

Going to advocate for King K Rool and Sami. Pokemon trainer could maybe be cloned for switching capability between her and Andy?

I didn't read the 22,000+ messages, but don't discredit the possibility of King K Rool
being modeled from scratch. The PMDT has rendered Mewtwo from scratch only using Melee as a reference, and even though it took them over 700 man hours to finish, it came out beautifully! They could definitely do the same for King K Rool. He's meaningful and popular enough to merit the effort, has a highly unique moveset pool to choose from, and would fill in a great niche that the roster could use more of (villain + DK character). Big effort for a big payout. Not to mention, it would give the PMDT a chance to mess around with the heavy, fat, slow character type and address the current balance problems with them.

 

[CBO0tz]

I think Samurai Goroh should definitely be a clone of C. Falcon in a matter that Wolf is a semi-clone of Fox.

I'm going to show you guys what I think his movelist should be. Samurai Goroh's playstyle should be a combo-heavy type of character whose strength and weight/fall speed is between Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, and has the benefit of extra range and a disjointed hitbox over those two. The downside being that he's got a bigger hitbox, and is slightly slower than Captain Falcon, but faster than Ganondorf.

Special Attacks:

Neutral-B: Stingray Sword: I like this idea and name from the OP, however I do not like the idea that it borrows so much from Ike, like everything else. If anything, it should function like a weaker version of 64 Falcon Punch, but with the extra range of the sword. Fire effects necessary. Possibly in the shape of a Stingray?

Side-B: Goroh Lunge/Headbutt: Works exactly the same as the Falcon Side-B, but its grounded and aerial characteristics are slightly different. Goroh lunges at an opponent and punches them backward horizontally. Works as a spacing tool. In the air, Goroh headbutts an enemy on contact, acting as a nipple spike.

Down-B: Fire Sting: Another cloned version of the Falcon kick, but without any sort of effect, and is much shorter in length. Aerially it is the same, but at a more horizontal angle, and shorter as well.

Up-B: Boost Power: Functionally the same as the OP.

Standard Attacks:

Jab: a strong left arm, followed by a horizontal downward swing of his sword, followed by a Gentleman high roundhouse kick, then a flurry of sword swings, similar to his AT attack.

F-Tilt: A quick, horizontal swing across at head level. Can be aimed slightly up or down.

D-Tilt: A quick downward vertical swing at the ground. Generally, I imagine his crouching stance would be him squatting similar to a sumo wrestler.

U-Tilt: An axe kick/sumo wrestler stomp, much like Falcondorf's, but this one would be much more practical for combos. It would have the shortest endlag of them all, but it would have much shorter range on account of Goroh's stubbier legs. Charging it would increase the damage output, but also increase the endlag on it too.

Smash Attacks:

F-Smash: A Samurai-styled katana thrust forward.

D-Smash: I couldn't find a video showing SSB64 C. Falcon's D-Smash, so I don't know what it looks like, but for now, let's just go with that.

U-Smash: Brawl Ganondorf's Up-Smash. I think that this move would fit Goroh way better than it ever did on Ganondorf.

Aerials:

N-Air: Sex kick

F-Air: The same as his Assist Trophy. A flurry of sword swings similar to MK's.

D-Air: A stomp. Same as C. Falcon, but with a much easier-to-hit nipple spike.

U-Air: A rising Katana strike that hits all around him. Funtionally similar to a flip kick.

 

[qwertz143]

Well, I've heard alot of complaints about Lucas in my area. Like people here were used to the Brawl Lucas, and when they tried out the PM Lucas they always got confused and didn't like the character, so they switched to Ness.
So I had this idea, why don't they change the current Lucas in PM to Claus and shift it to a clone slot of Lucas, and revert Lucas to his original slot. Then they can make balancing changes and stuff for Lucas so that Brawl users can use him comfortably, and PM users can then use Claus who has the Offense up attack. Or it could be vice versa and let Claus have the reverted Brawl moveset.
Just an idea :3

 

[Nefnoj]

...How could they not like Project M Lucas?! That hurts me so much...

 

[Game&Watcher]

...How could they not like Project M Lucas?! That hurts me so much...

Because they preferred Lucas as he was in Brawl/Sm4sh. That's how.

 

[NhgrtPlayer]

I'm still waiting/hype for Lyn.

 

[ShadowKing]

I would rather have young link as a link skin same with toon zelda and I would love to see pichu back

 

[GunBuster]

I would rather have young link as a link skin same with toon zelda and I would love to see pichu back

If you knew how custom costumes worked in brawl modding you'd know that this is literally impossible.

 

[ShadowKing]

If you knew how custom costumes worked in brawl modding you'd know that this is literally impossible.

it worked with Dr.Mario and Mario

Edit:Im not sure if TZ would work on Zelda but its a possibility

 

[Nefnoj]

If you knew how custom costumes worked in brawl modding you'd know that this is literally impossible.

Yeah bro, I don't know what you're talking about. Sort of what ShadowKing said - costume specific PSA's, many simply reduce the size of a character.

Of course - Project M will never do that, as it goes against the rules, but it's definitely possible, and has been done before.

 

[AceGamer]

Dr. Mario and Mario have the exact same proportions (since they're the same person lol), YL and TL actually have different body shapes and TZ is like half of Zeldas height lol

 

[ShadowKing]

Dr. Mario and Mario have the exact same proportions (since they're the same person lol), YL and TL actually have different body shapes and TZ is like half of Zeldas height lol

i never mentioned TL i said Link

 

[GunBuster]

Of course - Project M will never do that, as it goes against the rules, but it's definitely possible, and has been done before.

okay, fine, it's possible to do, yes, but thanks to the way it changes and screws with the base model, it's guaranteed to never happen in PM.

i never mentioned TL i said Link

and young link's half the size of regular link.

it worked with Dr.Mario and Mario

because it's literally the same mario in different clothes.

 

[ShadowKing]

I would rather have young link as a link skin same with toon zelda and I would love to see pichu back

okay, fine, it's possible to do, yes, but thanks to the way it changes and screws with the base model, it's guaranteed to never happen in PM.



and young link's half the size of regular link.



because it's literally the same mario in different clothes.

Yes YL is half size but they do have the same moveset etc

 

[GunBuster]

Yes YL is half size but they do have the same moveset etc

That still doesn't work.

 

[ShadowKing]

That still doesn't work.

Why don't we stop fighting over something that might be possible or might not

 

[qwertz143]

Why don't we stop fighting over something that might be possible or might not

But you started it...

 

[Nefnoj]

Why don't we stop fighting over something that might be possible or might not

If you're thinking about the additional Young Link Toon Link thingy, it's impossible, not because of technical limitations, but because it breaks Project M's rules: Firstly, hitbox stuff. Toon Link has such weird adorable proportions, tiny legs, huge arms, GIANT HEAD THAT I WANT TO HOLD CLOSE TO ME, etc. This breaks the rules in terms of hitboxes, hurtboxes, and probably animation/skeleton stuff. It also changes Toon Link's identity muchly, which is another rule of Project M's - no costumes that change the character's identity. This is the closest that's possible, and Toon Link has other costumes that have higher priority:

 

[ShadowKing]

If you're thinking about the additional Young Link Toon Link thingy, it's impossible, not because of technical limitations, but because it breaks Project M's rules: Firstly, hitbox stuff. Toon Link has such weird adorable proportions, tiny legs, huge arms, GIANT HEAD THAT I WANT TO HOLD CLOSE TO ME, etc. This breaks the rules in terms of hitboxes, hurtboxes, and probably animation/skeleton stuff. It also changes Toon Link's identity muchly, which is another rule of Project M's - no costumes that change the character's identity. This is the closest that's possible, and Toon Link has other costumes that have higher priority:

How many times must I say these I did not say TL I said Link

 

[Nefnoj]

How many times must I say these I did not say TL I said Link

Hehehe, probably less with proper use of punctuation, English, and grammar. Either way - the same thing still stands... And Link is out of slots.

 

[GunBuster]

Why don't we stop fighting over something that might be possible or might not

because it's literally impossible in PM's scope of things.

 

[Nefnoj]

because it's literally impossible in PM's scope of things.

Your use of the word literally is figuratively giving me cancer.

 

[GunBuster]

Your use of the word literally is figuratively giving me cancer.

figuratively literally?