New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[wiztick]

+1 pichu
+1 rawk

 

[Solbliminal]

These bros get whats up. This isn't about Paper Mario representation. This is about supporting what you like. And no matter how unlikely that thing is, you always have to try. I mean that is even how a lot of video game series got inspired. Things will never happen unless you make a voice for them. That is why I've always stuck my neck out for characters I like. You guys may think it is stupid, generous, and just blind acceptance, but it honestly isn't. I just support what I like despite how unlikely you all make it seem.

The only thing that makes it unlikely is people like you naysayers holding it back. Because who in their right mind would've voted on things like Sukapon without someone having a voice to make it realized? Huh Anti Guy? Because you know as well as I do that yet to be officially localized pipe dream of yours is something you support and want to see it succeed. And Sami? Why is everyone getting on Rawk's case when Sami should be on the burners waiting on Andy just the same as Rawk? Because people like her. Because people support her. Regardless of her closer to Snake clone status, people like her as a character. In which case, a character's role hardly matters. I mean freaking TINGLE has his own game. And look what his role in the Zelda series was.

So what if your character doesn't make it? We are allowed to have an opinion on what we want to see. Learn to open up a little bit instead of restricting yourselves and talking down to others for thinking differently. We are all guilty of wanting something and should be allowed to voice it without feeling stupid for doing so. Hell I have major respect for guys like Arcticfox8, Shin, Edge, and Saito for staying firm on their voice towards characters they like, despite the so called "chances" those characters have of making it. And look at the support that came from it. This is Project M, a mod. Not an official game. The only restriction we should have is the guidelines the PMBR gave us. And that is it.

Go ahead and hate my unpopular opinion if you all want. This is the last time I'm speaking out to defend anything. Anything after this is just votes and support. Sorry if I wasted anyone's time.

 

[TRJV]

+1 pichu
+1 rawk

Wow, I haven't seen a Pichu vote in a while.

 

[smashkirby]

Oh, Can I also vote Pichu? He deserves to get a second chance at being taken more seriously.

 

[MLGF]

I can't speak for the PMBR, but if I were in their position, I'd have difficulty taking this thread as serious feedback if the requests diluted and lost all rational.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I can't speak for the PMBR, but if I were in their position, I'd have difficulty taking this thread as serious feedback if the requests diluted and lost all rational.

I think they stopped taking this thread seriously around pages 25-100.

But I get what you're saying.
At least we're not talking about Cloud, Goku, or Shrek.

 

[Shin F.]

I think they stopped taking this thread seriously around pages 25-100.

But I get what you're saying.
At least we're not talking about Cloud, Goku, or Shrek.

Most of the time

 

[Cool Blue]

At least we're not talking about Shrek.

Dude, don't diss the Ogrelord.

 

[MLGF]

If you insult Shrek, the punishment will never be ogre.

 

[Anti Guy]

These bros get whats up. This isn't about Paper Mario representation. This is about supporting what you like. And no matter how unlikely that thing is, you always have to try. I mean that is even how a lot of video game series got inspired. Things will never happen unless you make a voice for them. That is why I've always stuck my neck out for characters I like. You guys may think it is stupid, generous, and just blind acceptance, but it honestly isn't. I just support what I like despite how unlikely you all make it seem.

The only thing that makes it unlikely is people like you naysayers holding it back. Because who in their right mind would've voted on things like Sukapon without someone having a voice to make it realized? Huh Anti Guy? Because you know as well as I do that yet to be officially localized pipe dream of yours is something you support and want to see it succeed. And Sami? Why is everyone getting on Rawk's case when Sami should be on the burners waiting on Andy just the same as Rawk? Because people like her. Because people support her. Regardless of her closer to Snake clone status, people like her as a character. In which case, a character's role hardly matters. I mean freaking TINGLE has his own game. And look what his role in the Zelda series was.

So what if your character doesn't make it? We are allowed to have an opinion on what we want to see. Learn to open up a little bit instead of restricting yourselves and talking down to others for thinking differently. We are all guilty of wanting something and should be allowed to voice it without feeling stupid for doing so. Hell I have major respect for guys like Arcticfox8, Shin, Edge, and Saito for staying firm on their voice towards characters they like, despite the so called "chances" those characters have of making it. And look at the support that came from it. This is Project M, a mod. Not an official game. The only restriction we should have is the guidelines the PMBR gave us. And that is it.

Go ahead and hate my unpopular opinion if you all want. This is the last time I'm speaking out to defend anything. Anything after this is just votes and support. Sorry if I wasted anyone's time.

All I'm going to say is this. The title of the thread is Clone Character Speculation. It was originally meant to filter in the most likely and best candidates to give us a good idea of who the best and most viable characters are for the last five slots.

At some point, this has thread has stopped becoming that and has become more of a Clone Character Wish List, with the focus not being on the most likely, but the least likely characters. I have no problem with people's opinions or who they want. Note that I NEVER say a character is ********. Or anything like that. Many of the characters that I think are ridiculous proposals are characters that I very much like. I have a whole list of characters would be on my wish list. But this is not a wish list thread -- or at least it was not meant to be. A wish list can be done anywhere. It does not have to be Project M, and SSB4 already has it in full force. Is there any reason that the last 100 or so pages needed to be in this forum? A wish list is going to have unlikely desires that we're all going have, and that's gonna vary a TON from person to person. The ideal place for wishes and to be open and super creative with awesome movelists and all wouldn't be here, in the Project M forum, though -- that would be in a custom fangame forum (like SSF2 or SSB Crusade).

So at the point where this thread ceases to be an actual speculation thread but essentially another wish list thread is when it starts losing credibility to people who don't frequent this thread, something whose existence in this forum is becoming questionable (the only thing tying it to PM is the Brawl appearance restriction, the fact that you can only choose 5, and the occasional technical limitations).

 

[Malion]

This sort of thing is bound to happen if only because our half votes are unlimited.
There is no penalty for dropping a half vote on literally every sticker in the game.

 

[Anti Guy]

This sort of thing is bound to happen if only because our half votes are unlimited.
There is no penalty for dropping a half vote on literally every sticker in the game.

Funny you mentioned that. Yesterday I was just thinking to myself, "I should've made 1/2 votes limited." That would've changed voting dynamics a lot. It's a little too late for that now. Now they're like points on Whose Line is it Anyways.

 

[Solbliminal]

Funny you mentioned that. Yesterday I was just thinking to myself, "I should've made 1/2 votes limited." That would've changed voting dynamics a lot. It's a little too late for that now. Now they're like points on Whose Line is it Anyways.

You can always refine your rules after the first character drops. Live and learn man. Also I completely understand your points. But you can't honestly say I'm wrong. If you are holding a poll, people are going to want to vote on the options given to them. That is the point of a poll. You are always bound to get odd suggestions if it is following the guidelines given to the people. As I stated before, just refine your poll or have us start completely over once the first character drops. It will be a fresh start for all of us.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I think you raise a good point about the whole issue, Anti Guy. Nonetheless, As much of a wish list thread this eventually became, it has potentially pointed out some things to the PMBR (they'll always be a backroom to me), like how much everyone and their grandmother wants Isaac, how split the community could be over Blackendorf, how a new character could potentially draw in the Smash 4 crowd seeing as how many of the people over there come in here from time to time (Banjodorf is notably part of the thread for quite a while every time he drops by), how the clone engine restrictions can make some characters less wanted than normally (RIP Porky and K. Rool)--just a lot of things, man. Even if this isn't the most realistic thread ever, we've possibly communicated some info to the PMBR regarding wants as a community. They can use that as a reference when working on the next character.

You can always refine your rules after the first character drops. Live and learn man. Also I completely understand your points. But you can't honestly say I'm wrong. If you are holding a poll, people are going to want to vote on the options given to them. That is the point of a poll. You are always bound to get odd suggestions if it is following the guidelines given to the people. As I stated before, just refine your poll or have us start completely over once the first character drops. It will be a fresh start for all of us.

I'd have no problem with a voting rule change after we see a character, either. I say we limit 1/2 votes and negative votes next time as well as full votes.

 

[Malion]

let's limit half votes and bust out some unlimited quarter votes heh!

 

[Solbliminal]

I think you raise a good point about the whole issue, Anti Guy. Nonetheless, As much of a wish list thread this eventually became, it has potentially pointed out some things to the PMBR (they'll always be a backroom to me), like how much everyone and their grandmother wants Isaac, how split the community could be over Blackendorf, how a new character could potentially draw in the Smash 4 crowd seeing as how many of the people over there come in here from time to time (Banjodorf is notably part of the thread for quite a while every time he drops by), how the clone engine restrictions can make some characters less wanted than normally (RIP Porky and K. Rool)--just a lot of things, man. Even if this isn't the most realistic thread ever, we've possibly communicated some info to the PMBR regarding wants as a community. They can use that as a reference when working on the next character.


I'd have no problem with a voting rule change after we see a character, either. I say we limit 1/2 votes and negative votes next time as well as full votes.

Hey I know I get pretty loud and vocal about nonsense all the time. But know I honestly do respect everyone here. Even those who don't like me. I always at least try to speak out and defend others opinions. Because as long as it follows the rules, nobody should have to feel stupid for suggesting anything here. And I often feel the way people react in this thread does that to people.

As for the rules. We could set our own guidelines about characters too. It isn't wrong to do so if you guys are wanting to have this thread taken seriously. Make some sort of rule where if a series hasn't had a character, you can only vote on the main character. Or if a character doesn't have a meaningful impact to their entire series, do not vote for them. Stuff like that. We should literally sit down and pluck out reasonable characters. Mention in the OP that we have done so to give a more serious atmosphere about voting here.

 

[Shin F.]

I agree. The unlimited half-votes have made it far too easy to just throw one at any character we see and happen to like even just a little.

When the first Clone Engine character is confirmed, that's an ideal time to reset the numbers and rules.

While unlimited half-votes is just too much, I feel like we should still be able to cast a good handful, so I would suggest making it double the number of Full Votes. Assuming we get one character announced and the Full Votes go down to 4 (because they were designed to match the number of available slots) then that means everyone could have 8 Half-votes. And if we're restricting Anti-votes, I would suggest limiting it to the same number as the full votes. Because honestly? There can't be that many characters that would just ruin the game for you.

Hey I know I get pretty loud and vocal about nonsense all the time. But know I honestly do respect everyone here. Even those who don't like me. I always at least try to speak out and defend others opinions. Because as long as it follows the rules, nobody should have to feel stupid for suggesting anything here. And I often feel the way people react in this thread does that to people.

As for the rules. We could set our own guidelines about characters too. It isn't wrong to do so if you guys are wanting to have this thread taken seriously. Make some sort of rule where if a series hasn't had a character, you can only vote on the main character. Or if a character doesn't have a meaningful impact to their entire series, do not vote for them. Stuff like that. We should literally sit down and pluck out reasonable characters. Mention in the OP that we have done so to give a more serious atmosphere about voting here.

Perhaps if it was limited to Main characters for series without reps, and no less than Secondary characters for series with reps.

 

[Solbliminal]

Perhaps if it was limited to Main characters for series without reps, and no less than Secondary characters for series with reps.

I can get behind that. It sounds completely reasonable.

 

[arcticfox8]

I'd say 4 full votes, 4 half votes, 1 downvote
Because downvoting a character arguably has a larger impact than upvoting.

 

[Shin F.]

I'd say 4 full votes, 4 half votes, 1 downvote
Because downvoting a character arguably has a larger impact than upvoting.

I feel like that's a bit too restrictive. Half votes have a lesser impact and people have many A+ characters they could support, so it only makes sense to give more of them than Full votes. I suggested double the number since they're worth half the value.

As for downvotes, I never like seeing them, but only giving one? Shoot, half the people in the thread will throw their single down-vote at Black Shadow / Ganondorf and then never be able to cast another because they hate that one so much and refuse to change it. You have a point about their greater impact, but I would at least give 2 Down votes.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

If we're talking about voting rule revisions, I really think that the whole "ten people need to vote on one character for said character to become visible" thing needed some slight rethinking. At the time when I cast my votes, I was of the opinion that only those mentioned in the OP were "eligible" period. It wouldn't be until much later that I found out that they were just a handful of the potential candidates.

While I definitely find myself siding with people saying that we should make a real/serious "eligibility" list in a future revision of the thread (along with agreeing with a need for new rules), I do hope that in this one, there'll be more visibility for legit characters that went unseen because at one point no one was bringing them up. (Hey Takamaru and Sable)

 

[JCOnyx]

I can get behind that. It sounds completely reasonable.

I could get behind it as well, as long as I knew you guys weren't specifically targeting the Advance Wars debate. I'll argue that Andy isn't the main character of that series for days even though I'd be okay with him making it in. AW would have to be an exception to that rule and allow Andy, Sami and Max to be voted for, then I'd be okay with it.

 

[Shin F.]

I could get behind it as well, as long as I knew you guys weren't specifically targeting the Advance Wars debate. I'll argue that Andy isn't the main character of that series for days even though I'd be okay with him making it in. AW would have to be an exception to that rule and allow Andy, Sami and Max to be voted for, then I'd be okay with it.

I wasn't even thinking about Advance Wars, actually. I don't really care about how that goes so we can allow Sami and Max still.

 

[Solbliminal]

I could get behind it as well, as long as I knew you guys weren't specifically targeting the Advance Wars debate. I'll argue that Andy isn't the main character of that series for days even though I'd be okay with him making it in. AW would have to be an exception to that rule and allow Andy, Sami and Max to be voted for, then I'd be okay with it.

I have no qualms with that. Advance Wars is a series I've not played, so I only have what I have been told to go by.

 

[JCOnyx]

That's a relief. Maybe I was too quick to start pointing fingers, but that subject can get a little heated in here so I just wanted to make sure.

I feel like that's a bit too restrictive. Half votes have a lesser impact and people have many A+ characters they could support, so it only makes sense to give more of them than Full votes. I suggested double the number since they're worth half the value.

As for downvotes, I never like seeing them, but only giving one? Shoot, half the people in the thread will throw their single down-vote at Black Shadow / Ganondorf and then never be able to cast another because they hate that one so much and refuse to change it. You have a point about their greater impact, but I would at least give 2 Down votes.

I also agree with eveything stated here, and was just about to post the new voting system should be set up as a 4/8/2 limit on votes after the next character reveal.

 

[Malion]

I'd say the votes should be like 4 positive votes. 8 half votes (equaling 4 normal ones) maybe 16 quarter votes? *shot*

And as for down votes maybe 8 for that too. Or 10 idk.

edit: or maybe 4 down votes and 8 half downvotes. That would be wacky eh?

 

[Solbliminal]

That's a relief. Maybe I was too quick to start pointing fingers, but that subject can get a little heated in here so I just wanted to make sure.

No worries. Like I said. I was only going by what I was told. I've got no personal ties to the series to make such judgement as preventing a character from being voted on. Hell. I would even argue Felix from Golden Sun would be in the same realm as Sami and Max, had he been eligible.

I also agree with eveything stated here, and was just about to post the new voting system should be set up as a 4/8/2 limit on votes after the next character reveal.

No arguments here.

 

[arcticfox8]

Idea:
After the next reveal, we get 4 ranked full votes and 3 half votes
The half votes represent the slots of the clone engine already filled.
Whenever a new character is revealed the lowest ranked full vote becomes a half vote unless the voter specifically says otherwise. If the new character is one on your list you get a free half-vote.
This is a system that helps narrow the playing field and can adapt with character reveals.

I still stand by the one downvote thing. I'm for no downvotes but if they stay their should only be one. It limits downvotes across the board but also makes downvotes stronger in the process.

 

[Saito]

All I'm going to say is this. The title of the thread is Clone Character Speculation. It was originally meant to filter in the most likely and best candidates to give us a good idea of who the best and most viable characters are for the last five slots.

At some point, this has thread has stopped becoming that and has become more of a Clone Character Wish List, with the focus not being on the most likely, but the least likely characters. I have no problem with people's opinions or who they want. Note that I NEVER say a character is ********. Or anything like that. Many of the characters that I think are ridiculous proposals are characters that I very much like. I have a whole list of characters would be on my wish list. But this is not a wish list thread -- or at least it was not meant to be. A wish list can be done anywhere. It does not have to be Project M, and SSB4 already has it in full force. Is there any reason that the last 100 or so pages needed to be in this forum? A wish list is going to have unlikely desires that we're all going have, and that's gonna vary a TON from person to person. The ideal place for wishes and to be open and super creative with awesome movelists and all wouldn't be here, in the Project M forum, though -- that would be in a custom fangame forum (like SSF2 or SSB Crusade).

So at the point where this thread ceases to be an actual speculation thread but essentially another wish list thread is when it starts losing credibility to people who don't frequent this thread, something whose existence in this forum is becoming questionable (the only thing tying it to PM is the Brawl appearance restriction, the fact that you can only choose 5, and the occasional technical limitations).

There are plenty of reaction images I could use to say that I agree with this and applaud you, but I feel that would take away from the actual significance of how accurate this sentiment is.

 

[Gene]

+1 Pichu. My brother keeps telling me how Pichu should've already been in PM and I actually agree with him.

 

[Golf Actual]

Wow--I looked at this thread last night and was worried you guys were gonna get into an argument. I'm really glad you all worked this out so maturely.
I'm gonna go ahead and give +1 vote to Ridley, and I just want to make sure, if I cast a half vote, am I permitted to change it to a full vote later? Also, the 4/8/2 idea seems like a great one to me.

 

[Anti Guy]

I agree. The unlimited half-votes have made it far too easy to just throw one at any character we see and happen to like even just a little.

When the first Clone Engine character is confirmed, that's an ideal time to reset the numbers and rules.

While unlimited half-votes is just too much, I feel like we should still be able to cast a good handful, so I would suggest making it double the number of Full Votes. Assuming we get one character announced and the Full Votes go down to 4 (because they were designed to match the number of available slots) then that means everyone could have 8 Half-votes. And if we're restricting Anti-votes, I would suggest limiting it to the same number as the full votes. Because honestly? There can't be that many characters that would just ruin the game for you.

Perhaps if it was limited to Main characters for series without reps, and no less than Secondary characters for series with reps.

This was actually my thought, down to a T (# of half votes = 2x number of full votes).

As of right now, I think it's too late to actually change the rules. Too many people have already unloaded a significant amount of half votes that it would just be annoying to change the rule and be like "hey you now have to drop X amount of votes." Maybe this could be possible if it turns out the only people that do have an extreme number of half votes are the ones that frequent this thread anyways, so if there were just a handful, it would be a matter of PMing them and asking them to change their votes. That's up to the vote counters right now.

I'm all for more changes -- and likely a poll reset -- once a character is actually revealed.

I think you raise a good point about the whole issue, Anti Guy. Nonetheless, As much of a wish list thread this eventually became, it has potentially pointed out some things to the PMBR (they'll always be a backroom to me), like how much everyone and their grandmother wants Isaac, how split the community could be over Blackendorf, how a new character could potentially draw in the Smash 4 crowd seeing as how many of the people over there come in here from time to time (Banjodorf is notably part of the thread for quite a while every time he drops by), how the clone engine restrictions can make some characters less wanted than normally (RIP Porky and K. Rool)--just a lot of things, man. Even if this isn't the most realistic thread ever, we've possibly communicated some info to the PMBR regarding wants as a community. They can use that as a reference when working on the next character.



I'd have no problem with a voting rule change after we see a character, either. I say we limit 1/2 votes and negative votes next time as well as full votes.

Most of those things you pointed out -- Isaac and Blackendorf -- were done mostly super early in this thread

I could get behind it as well, as long as I knew you guys weren't specifically targeting the Advance Wars debate. I'll argue that Andy isn't the main character of that series for days even though I'd be okay with him making it in. AW would have to be an exception to that rule and allow Andy, Sami and Max to be voted for, then I'd be okay with it.

Whenever the poll gets reset, it'd probably be a good idea to have voting groups for characters that are mutually exclusive. So people can just vote for "Advance Wars character" -- but then they could also specify what they meant by that (Andy mainly, Sami mainly, both, etc). Same thing with Ridley and Dark Samus, as those two are mutually exclusive.

Finally, I'd also argue that with a new poll, the choices would be locked. No new entries can come in. We pretty much exhausted the whole well by this point, and having a fixed character selection (one of the major confusions behind this whole poll was there being the ability to vote for characters not on the list) will make it be smoother too.

 

[Solbliminal]

Whenever the poll gets reset, it'd probably be a good idea to have voting groups for characters that are mutually exclusive. So people can just vote for "Advance Wars character" -- but then they could also specify what they meant by that (Andy mainly, Sami mainly, both, etc). Same thing with Ridley and Dark Samus, as those two are mutually exclusive.

Finally, I'd also argue that with a new poll, the choices would be locked. No new entries can come in. We pretty much exhausted the whole well by this point, and having a fixed character selection (one of the major confusions behind this whole poll was there being the ability to vote for characters not on the list) will make it be smoother too.

This all sounds very reasonable honestly. I do want to bring up that a lot of people have been requesting vote changes and such, so I think it is fair to say people would be completely okay with a poll reset. I'm pretty confident with what knowledge this poll provided that the next poll will be organized for the better.

And relative to this discussion, I'm sorry if I've caused you any trouble Anti Guy. I don't mean to stir any chaos in thread. I am trying to, I guess you could say, play the devil's advocate in most situations. I wasn't intentionally trying to make things hard on you.

 

[AceGamer]

Give my vote to Lyn, Issac, and Krystal

 

[Anti Guy]

This all sounds very reasonable honestly. I do want to bring up that a lot of people have been requesting vote changes and such, so I think it is fair to say people would be completely okay with a poll reset. I'm pretty confident with what knowledge this poll provided that the next poll will be organized for the better.

And relative to this discussion, I'm sorry if I've caused you any trouble Anti Guy. I don't mean to stir any chaos in thread. I am trying to, I guess you could say, play the devil's advocate in most situations. I wasn't intentionally trying to make things hard on you.

It's alright. I play the devil's advocate all the time anyways.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

Wow--I looked at this thread last night and was worried you guys were gonna get into an argument. I'm really glad you all worked this out so maturely.
I'm gonna go ahead and give +1 vote to Ridley, and I just want to make sure, if I cast a half vote, am I permitted to change it to a full vote later? Also, the 4/8/2 idea seems like a great one to me.

Give my vote to Lyn, Issac, and Krystal

I know I've spoken to Golf Actual before but what are your opinions on Takamaru @ AceGamer ? Care to give him a vote too while you're at it? No pressure, just asking.

 

[arcticfox8]

Everyone gets a vote

 

[Solbliminal]

It's alright. I play the devil's advocate all the time anyways.

AWWW SHET! THIS THREAD JUST GOT REAL!

 

[Gene]

Can I give Krystal another down vote? Just to be safe?

 

[Cubelarooso]

I once again bring (literal) illustration to why you want Sukapon! (As a reminder, "complete" coverage can be seen by clicking here; although clearly no critique could completely encompass such a colossal subject, my comment is continuously compounding new content.)

Every character in this game is able to make themselves a lower target just by holding Down. However, the natural extension of this technique only "rears its head" (impractically) in one of Mewtwo's taunts. The reason is simple; none of the characters in the game (nor on the eligibility list) have what Sukapon has: a potential playstyle centered on natural dodges combined with a free-floating ability to take to the air while remaining grounded.
By holding Up, Sukapon could hoist her upper pieces over low blows, while moving her feet to the sides out of harm's way. There is the possibility that such a stance would have strictly better hurtboxes than just idling, invalidating the latter as a true choice. However, this just inspires creative attributes to offset the anti-crouch's advantages, the most obvious being a direct analogue to crouching by increasing knockback taken by 1/3.