New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Saito]

I'm actually more concerned when something will be finalized.

Assuming that they spend 600 hours at the least on a character (it will definitely be 600 or more unless it's Pichu), they would probably only spend about 3-5 a day working on the character. This is accounting for everything that may cause delays other than file corruption. At that rate it would take them 120-200 days to get something finalized.

Meaning if they started working on a character right now it would be done anywhere from September 9th 2014 - November 28th 2014.

From my own assumptions, they probably don't want to work on something and have it potentially scrapped due to a character being in Smash 4. I want to say that they won't make a final character choice till Smash 4 comes out.

Assuming that Smash comes out late summer, let's just say July 25th for whatever reason a new character would be done anywhere from November 22th 2014 - February 10th 2015.

That's not even taking into account the extra time it will take to make a unique character.

 

[MLGF]

I'd just hate to see another Spacie enter the roster when we could be getting another PK Kid, F-Zero Racer, or even someone from an unrepped series.

No offense, but I don't think Mother is as big as starfox nor does its roster offer anything unique. Any complaint that adding another spacie would bring, mother does as well.

Flame shield up!

 

[Sour Supreme]

No offense, but I don't think Mother is as big as starfox nor does its roster offer anything unique. Any complaint that adding another spacie would bring, mother does as well.

Flame shield up!

While I respect your opinion, that statement was a little asinine. Mother has just about the most potential out of any series. It has a large amount of varying characters that fight differently, while Starfox has similar characters that for the majority of their series aren't even seen fighting.

 

[Saito]

No offense, but I don't think Mother is as big as starfox nor does its roster offer anything unique. Any complaint that adding another spacie would bring, mother does as well.

Flame shield up!

Mother is not as big as starfox.
Ninten looks nearly the same as Ness but still easily has a lot that is unused in his games.
Space animals have a lot that they can use as well. Why do they have to be another super smash brothers version of star fox?

If one of them will make it in, make it krystal. That's only because she has access to that staff which isn't being used at all and has potential.

 

[Shin F.]

No offense, but I don't think Mother is as big as starfox nor does its roster offer anything unique. Any complaint that adding another spacie would bring, mother does as well.

Flame shield up!

First off, not offering anything unique with its fighters is blatantly false. There've been many an example otherwise within the thread.

Second, it's not about series reps. It's about having the same ****ing basic moveset for so many characters. If we're not counting Wolf, another spacie would be a third character with the same moveset. It's FINE if they have another base moveset. Further, if Wolf doesn't count, then Lucas doesn't count as a clone either. He is just as different from Ness as Wolf is from Fox, and if we're counting Ness and Lucas as clones, it's only right to also count Wolf as a clone, in which case there would be FOUR characters with the same base, which is blatant overkill.

 

[MLGF]

Ness and Lucas reference moves used by everyone in their party, which is where pretty much all potential characters are.
And that's some heavy bias right there. I'm not too avid on either series, only played Earthbound and Starfox 64, and I can say from an unbiased standpoint that neither reference their franchise at any significant way.

And sigh...
I never implied that Ness and Lucas were clones. Honestly I think both are pretty unique.
But complaining about Spacies and then saying how much more potential mother characters have... lol.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Ness and Lucas reference moves used by everyone in their party, which is where pretty much all potential characters are.
And that's some heavy bias right there. I'm not too avid on either series, only played Earthbound and Starfox 64, and I can say from an unbiased standpoint that neither reference their franchise at any significant way.

That is why we've tried being creative with our ideas. Shin's Ninten incorporates moves used by himself, (aside from PK Beam) to create a more defensive support character. Lucas and Ness work very differently in terms of kits.

It's also ridiculous to say that all of our rep ideas come from party members. Masked Man is probably the second most supported Mother pitch, and he's an enemy. He also happens to have a move set made by Mowg and myself that differs greatly from Lucas and Ness.

 

[Saito]

Ness and Lucas reference moves used by everyone in their party, which is where pretty much all potential characters are.
And that's some heavy bias right there. I'm not too avid on either series, only played Earthbound and Starfox 64, and I can say from an unbiased standpoint that neither reference their franchise at any significant way.

I've never played mother but I'm pretty sure every distinguishable move that ness has is represented in his game in some way.

His generic kicks aren't but whatever. I'm sure all of his PK moves exist, he uses the bat, and I think the Yo Yo is also a shown weapon in earthbound.

Fox and his gang on the other hand have access to their blaster.
That's it. A lot of the rest was built off of the knowledge that these are trained agile fighters who are in top shape, This could be accounted to the fact that they need to be very fit to pilot an arwing.

Last game I remember having foot combat was Star Fox assault and there was no kicks or punches from what I remember. Did have a sexy sniper rifle though.

 

[Shin F.]

Ness and Lucas reference moves used by everyone in their party, which is where pretty much all potential characters are.
And that's some heavy bias right there. I'm not too avid on either series, only played Earthbound and Starfox 64, and I can say from an unbiased standpoint that neither reference their franchise at any significant way.

And sigh...
I never implied that Ness and Lucas were clones. Honestly I think both are pretty unique.
But complaining about Spacies and then saying how much more potential mother characters have... lol.

I think you misunderstand. Nearly everything in the entire thread has more potential than another Spacie archetype. Slippy and Panther and whoever else are FINE as long as they aren't just another Fox clone. You're taking everything we say as being against Star Fox characters and then retaliating against Earthbound characters just because we happen to be Earthbound fans. It's not Star Fox characters we're arguing against. What I don't want is another character that just has the same Laser, Shine, Fire Spacie and Spacie Illusion base with the same animations on all their normals. It's a waste. Bringing up that Star Fox is more popular or has more potential than something else is asinine and weak when it's the idea of another clone with the Spacie moveset that I'm arguing against. If you want another Star Fox character, fine. Just don't make them another Fox clone, FFS.

And you may not have said Ness and Lucas are clones, but you did imply that any Earthbound characters would be unoriginal.

No offense, but I don't think Mother is as big as starfox nor does its roster offer anything unique.

Which is, as has been shown by Masked Man, Ninten and Jeff movesets, blatantly false and holds the implication that Earthbound characters are not unique. Which is a pointless argument, really, since you're arguing for the inclusion of another Spacie clone, which is 100% non-original.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Look, the quality of a move set is greatly dependent on creative leeway. Mother characters have a lot of room for interpretation.

Between Party members and the countless moves and items the game has to offer, a unique moveset is easily created.

With Spacies, because they are rarely seen in combat the create leeway is lesser. You could either make a move set based on the reality of what Starfox combat is, or throw out some random move set that doesn't really rep the game at all.

All I'm saying is that in terms of potential Mother is superior.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I have an idea. Let's include Lyn as a character.

I've made a few specials.

Neutral: Lyn charges up the Sol Katti, then releases it in an arc in front of her. It resembles her f-smash, but since it's a special you can also use it in the air.

Forward: if done properly, Lyn slashes four times in a row, each with a button press in conjunction with a direction on the control stick.

Down: Lyn holds up the Sol Katti in front of her. If the opponent strikes her in this pose, she counterattacks with more damage than was dealt with a swing of the blade in front of her. It activates on projectiles as well.

Up: Lyn rises vertically while holding up her blade. It's not very useful offensively, so she has to rely on this move for recovery, along with the first swing of her side special, which makes her move a tiny bit forward in the air.

I mean, a lot of people really love using Marth, so it's only natural that we should make another variation of his moveset. Roy isn't enough.

Right?

 

[Saito]

Right?

This horse was beaten to death three times guys.

So TL : DR
We have enough spacies
Star fox characters that aren't spacies are welcome
Earthbound characters are welcome
Try to not have them being full clones. No reason to make them super similar since they aren't affected by bcuz melee. If they have moves that can be changed for the better then change em.

 

[Shin F.]

This horse was beaten to death three times guys.

So TL : DR
We have enough spacies
Star fox characters that aren't spacies are welcome
Earthbound characters are welcome
Try to not have them being full clones. No reason to make them super similar since they aren't affected by bcuz melee. If they have moves that can be changed for the better then change em.

Precisely. For instance, as far as Star Fox characters go:

Spoiler

Slippy

Samus Clone?

B- Blaster. Slippy's Blaster is quite a bit different from the other Star Fox characters. Because he's a tech genius, he's made several enhancements. As a result, it's far more powerful but requires some charge time before each shot. It can charge normally over time like Wario's farts or Slippy can hold B to charge it faster like Ivysaur's Solar Beam. He can't fire unless the charge is full.

Side B- Torpedoes. Based on Samus' missiles, he fires three small torpedoes at a time. Individually, they do little damage, but if all of them hit, they can deal a moderate amount. They have more range than Slippy's Blaster, but less power. Very little knockback.

Down B- Generator. Slippy places a device on the ground that generates a field of electricity which will remain for 10-15 seconds and damage anything that touches it with no knockback. He can only have 1 - 2 at a time. If used in the air, it will activate midair and then drop to the ground. When its time is up, it will explode, dealing large knockback to anything in range.

Up B- Rocket Boots. Slippy's not particularly good at controlling his rocket boots for sustained flight, but he can use them in a burst to give himself high vertical momentum. It resembles Sonic's spring jump in how it works to launch him upwards, but it launches him much higher with very little possibility for horizontal recovery.

Alternately, it will push him upward for a couple of seconds for maximum height, but he can let go early for less distance if he wants as well, to prevent interception. Kind of like ROB's original recovery, but without the horizontal movement.

Final Smash - Cluster Bomb. A series of 12 Smart Bomb explosions with a combined diameter of 3/4 Final Destination's size activate around Slippy in a full circle. Slippy is in the middle of these explosions, but generates a shield to protect himself from them until they are gone.

Alternately, they can activate in random locations around the stage, perhaps even being dropped by a passing Arwing.

Now, Slippy isn't nearly as physically fit as the other Star Fox characters, so he's the slowest of the group. However, the advantage to being a toad is that he has incredible range with his prehensile tongue. (It was never shown in the games, but **** it, neither was the Falcon Punch.) He uses it in some of his attacks, but having the same training as Fox and Falco, he also has a tendency to use plenty of kicks. He can also use it to grab from a distance.

There. Now, this is a Star Fox moveset I could get behind whole-heartedly because it's a new, fresh take on the characters from that series and not just another slight alternative to Fox and Falco.

 

[NWRL]

Lucas and Ness are enough for Mother reps, what we really need is a moveset for Skull Kid. Because he's like the hypest ****

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Precisely. For instance, as far as Star Fox characters go:

Spoiler

Slippy

Samus Clone?

B- Blaster. Slippy's Blaster is quite a bit different from the other Star Fox characters. Because he's a tech genius, he's made several enhancements. As a result, it's far more powerful but requires some charge time before each shot. It can charge normally over time like Wario's farts or Slippy can hold B to charge it faster like Ivysaur's Solar Beam. He can't fire unless the charge is full.

Side B- Torpedoes. Based on Samus' missiles, he fires three small torpedoes at a time. Individually, they do little damage, but if all of them hit, they can deal a moderate amount. They have more range than Slippy's Blaster, but less power. Very little knockback.

Down B- Generator. Slippy places a device on the ground that generates a field of electricity which will remain for 10-30 seconds and damage anything that touches it with no knockback. He can only have 1 - 2 at a time. If used in the air, it will activate midair and then drop to the ground. When its time is up, it will explode, dealing large knockback to anything in range.

Up B- Rocket Boots. Slippy's not particularly good at controlling his rocket boots for sustained flight, but he can use them in a burst to give himself high vertical momentum. It resembles Sonic's spring jump in how it works to launch him upwards, but it launches him much higher with very little possibility for horizontal recovery.

Alternately, it will push him upward for a couple of seconds for maximum height, but he can let go early for less distance if he wants as well, to prevent interception. Kind of like ROB's original recovery, but without the horizontal movement.

Final Smash - Cluster Bomb. A series of 12 Smart Bomb explosions with a combined diameter of 3/4 Final Destination's size activate around Slippy in a full circle. Slippy is in the middle of these explosions, but generates a shield to protect himself from them until they are gone.

Alternately, they can activate in random locations around the stage, perhaps even being dropped by a passing Arwing.

Now, Slippy isn't nearly as physically fit as the other Star Fox characters, so he's the slowest of the group. However, the advantage to being a toad is that he has incredible range with his prehensile tongue. (It was never shown in the games, but **** it, neither was the Falcon Punch.) He uses it in some of his attacks, but having the same training as Fox and Falco, he also has a tendency to use plenty of kicks. He can also use it to grab from a distance.

There. Now, this is a Star Fox moveset I could get behind whole-heartedly because it's a new, fresh take on the characters from that series and not just another slight alternative to Fox and Falco.

I like this because, even though you described him as a Samus clone, the moves supoosedly based off her work quite differently. I wouldn't suspect I'm playing a Samus clone at all if I messed around with this guy.

TL, DR: This is indeed how you do it guys.

Lucas and Ness are enough for Mother reps

Opinion

what we really need is a moveset for Skull Kid. Because he's like the hypest ****

Also opinion. Zelda has enough reps: 5. That's a LOT. Not even Mario has that many unless you count the spin-offs.

Zelda, by your logic, would be grossly overrepresented if he was included.

Now I love Skull Kid and say he should be in. I gave him a half-vote an eon ago. If he got in I'd be just as hype as you would be.

But don't go running around saying Mother is overrepped. I'd be excited for ANYONE, regardless of current reps. Ninten or Skull Kid would equally be hype for me.

 

[Shin F.]

Lucas and Ness are enough for Mother reps, what we really need is a moveset for Skull Kid. Because he's like the hypest ****

>Says series has more than enough reps
>Says we need a character for another series with more than enough reps

People, really, stop discriminating against characters just because of the series they're from! Yes, some series are under-repped and should have special consideration, like Golden Sun, Advance Wars and Metroid. That doesn't mean other series shouldn't be considered because they already have plenty. If we start doing that, we lose a lot of potential characters that could be really great, including Skull Kid, Lyn, Slippy, and more.

 

[NWRL]

>Says series has more than enough reps
>Says we need a character for another series with more than enough reps

People, really, as much as I love Skull Kid, stop discriminating against characters just because of the series they're from!

meme arrows

 

[Shin F.]

meme arrows

Useless post made because of a lack of legitimate counter-arguments.

 

[Saito]

meme arrows

>Meme arrows

You are mistaken my friend.

 

[NWRL]

Useless post made because of a lack of legitimate counter-arguments.

Skull Kid fills a Lovecraftian niche that no one in the cast has.

We have two MCs from Mother, a small series that doesn't even have all of their games localized.

 

[Saito]

Skull Kid fills a Lovecraftian niche that no one in the cast has.

We have two MCs from Mother, a small series that doesn't even have all of their games localized.

Just gonna say that it's these type of posts that make it hard to support a character.

Don't do this to skull kid. Do you know how hard it is to support Pichu with people like TopTierPichu running around?

 

[Shin F.]

Skull Kid fills a Lovecraftian niche that no one in the cast has.

Ganondorf.

We have two MCs from Mother, a small series that doesn't even have all of their games localized.

Zelda already has more than Mario, it's just as 'over-repped' as Mother is.

Look, I love Skull Kid and I hate arguing against him, so stop making an ass of yourself, really.

 

[NWRL]

Sell a Mother rep to me.

Not even trying to be a ****, I just don't see any sort of value that they could add over the options that people have discussed. (Ray 01, Knuckles, Lyn, Skull Kid, Isaac, K Rool, etc)

Ganondorf.

How do you consider Ganondorf a Lovecraftian character in any sort of way?

Skull Kid/Majora is basically Lovecraftian-lite for kids.

 

[Saito]

Shin.

Bring my moveset.

 

[Shin F.]

Shin.

Bring my moveset.

It's all here, my stuff and yours.

Spoiler: Project M: Ninten Moveset Ideas

Ninten This one may seem a bit odd. I know the Mother series is saturated, but he is the only main protagonist from the series that's not playable - and the main character of the first game, at that. Like Claus, he can be easily cloned from Ness/Lucas, and you could even mix and match from the two since their bones are similar enough to blend them.

Most importantly, he has a potentially unique moveset as the only PSI user with no directly offensive PK Attacks. His specials could instead be based around buffs and shields. Lucas now has Offense Up, of course, so he wouldn't necessarily use that but he could always use Quick Up to become faster for a while, or maybe have a temporary, limited version of Turbo Mode with it.

Then, he could have Power Shield instead of PSI Magnet. One way it could work is Power Shield blocks damage (but not knockback) from physical attacks and redirects some of the damage, but doesn't work on energy based attacks. Like PSI Magnet, he can't move while using it, though, so it isn't too overpowered against purely physical characters since he still takes knockback and can be sent flying while holding it. The other way is to only partially block damage.

His recovery could be his unique move 4th-D Slip, which in the original game allows him to escape from battles.

And, if he really needs an offensive special, he could have the PK attack unique to Earthbound Zero, PK Beam. Alternatively, there's a point in the game where he can get a Boomerang, and he has a Slingshots as well, which are both items the other Mother characters don't use.

Finally, he could also potentially use PSI Hypnosis, which puts enemies to sleep. I personally envision it as a chargeable version of Jigglypuff's sing that gains distance as it charges but loses effectiveness as it gets farther, but it could work in a multitude of ways.

The only problem I can foresee is his Final Smash, though he could borrow something from another character - or maybe PK Beam could be his Final Smash. The other possibility would be less direct, and more of an assist FS like Peach's. PSI Lifeup / Shields, which would heal him and give him temporary invincibility.

I realize his official artwork looks incredibly similar to Ness, but there is an alternative - in the original live action commercial, he wears another outfit that has been adapted in many fanart versions of him.

Plus, he could have a unique taunt where he coughs and uses his inhaler.

I was looking over my other post, and I realized I could probably have formatted my Ninten +1 reasoning more like the ones in the OP, so I decided to go on ahead and do that.

Ninten (Mother / EarthBound Zero)

(Full size image here: http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131102064529/fantendo/images/d/d1/NintenRim.png)

Value: B (Important to the series as a whole, but in a saturated series)
Effort: A (Psuedoclone. Luigified Ness/Lucas, easy model / texture edit of Ness, can borrow many moves from them while having his own, unique divergences.)

Background/Reasons: The only main Mother character still not playable, and the star of the first game. Not a walking spoiler. To prevent him looking too similarly to Ness, he can wear his clothes from the live commercial rather than his official art.

Moveset: Most normal moves and animations can be cloned from Ness and Lucas. The specials could as well, but if they weren't cloned then they would revolve around buffs and shields. Quick Up (temporary speed increase), Power Shield (which blocks physical rather than energy attacks), PSI Hypnosis (like Jigglypuff's Sing), 4th-D Slip (Teleports), and PK Beam (Unique to Earthbound Zero) are ideal techniques, though he also has a boomerang and a slingshot.

As a Final Smash, he could have either PK Beam or a combination of PSI Life Up and a number of Shields that would heal him completely and give him temporary invulnerability. Maybe add some buffs like Offense Up and Quick Up to make him faster and stronger during this period a la Wario Man. Finally, he could have Brain Cyclone as a Final Smash, which would work in three waves radiating from him. The first would spike characters it hits down, the second would stun them, and the third would have large knockback.

Pros
Important character from his series.
Luigifiable.
Would smoothly round out the reps from the Mother Trilogy. (Not a walking spoiler.)
Appears in Brawl as a sticker.
So many Mother fans. Feed their voracious hunger.

Cons
From a small series that already has two reps.
No voice clips, but could remain silent or borrow generic voice clips from Ness' old appearances in 64 and Melee.

The main thing I was thinking could be done to help differentiate him (other than his specials) was that he could use his items (like the bat, yoyo and boomerang) in more than just his smashes, unlike the others, and perhaps use them in different ways for his smashes. This makes sense from a standpoint of gameplay (making him more unique) and of character (because Ninten doesn't naturally learn offensive PSI like PK Rockin or PK Love, so he relies more on his tools).

So maybe his fair is a meteor with him smashing the enemy downwards with his bat. Maybe his f-smash has him swing his yoyo in a circle that goes all the way around him. Maybe he can use his yoyo as a tether grab and use it to throw people. All in all, he has many ways his normals could be pretty unique.

His specials can revolve around his ability to buff himself, deal status effects, and can also optionally give him the Mother 1-exclusive attack PK Beam (which I envision as a white, slower version of a Spacie blaster with a lot of Hitstun and prehaps an electric effect). He could also use PSI Hypnosis (which would act like Jigglypuff's Sing with the ability to charge the attack for greater distance), PSI Quick Up (which would work like Lucas' Offense Up, but would increase his speed instead of his power), and 4th-D Slip (which is his signature ability and would act as his recovery, allowing him to teleport).

His Final Smash has a couple of options. The easiest and most obvious are PK Beam Ω (a greatly powered up PK Beam), or as someone else suggest PSI Brainshock or Brain Cyclone, which could act in a number of ways depending on how it was implemented.

So, here is how I would personally assign his specials:

B: Quick Up - When fully charged, this increases Ninten's speed temporarily. This could manifest in a number of different forms, whether it be attack speed, running speed, falling speed - that's up to PMBR to decide, I suppose. Another idea was that it could act as a short-lived Turbo Mode.

Down B: Hypnosis - Ninten sends out a radial wave of PSI that can put enemies on the ground to sleep, and possibly make them go into a damage fall in the air.

Side B: PK Beam - Ninten sends out a ray of white energy with lots of hitstun.

Up B: 4th-D Slip - A teleportation technique that has Ninten go into a dimensional portal and come out of it elsewhere.

Final Smash: PK Beam Ω or Brain Cyclone. PK Beam Ω is obvious in its uses - it's a powerful beam, enough said really. The suggestion for Brain Cyclone was rather interesting. The person who suggested it came up with the idea that it would work in three waves radiating from him, like Tabuu's Off Waves. The first would spike characters it hits down, the second would stun them, and the third would have large knockback.

His taunts can involve him playing his Ocarina (the first part of the Eight Melodies?), coughing and using his inhaler, or adjusting his hat or bandana.

Here they are, finally scanned them and put them together. They're a bit rough because I rushed them, but I hope you guys like them as much as when I described them with just words. I'm open to suggestions, even if I probably won't draw them out (too much time )

Spoiler

Ninten

Isn't that ness?
No it's not!
​

Ninten, the boy with asthma, the boy who wears a scarf, the boy THATS NOT IN SMASH BROTHERS. The main character of the First mother series, he pretty much follows the standard of the other two protagonists while looking strikingly similar to that of Ness. They function nearly the same and are mostly separated by their differences in their stories.

However, Ninten has the potential to bring a unique weapon onto the field of battle, while providing its own quirks and differentiating him from Ness and Lucas.

His Yo yo.

I don't actually know much about mother so let's just get into the character shall we?
​

As Ninten has asthma, it should be no surprise that he has a slower running speed than Lucas or Ness (Not really but just go with it) His jump should reach a balance between Lucas' and Ness' jump while having a balance of their fall speed as well.

Main core of the character? Disjointed ranged attacks. A dangerous thought already. Wielding good options for pressuring enemies from a relatively safe distance in his Yo-Yo, he would not be unlike marth in the sense that spacing is key. He forgoes his bat entirely to make good use of his Yo-yo while not having to put it away.

Moves
​

• Jab : Up to two throws of the yo-yo straight forward. second one going a bit longer than the first one.
• Ftilt : Spin's and "slices" horizontally with the Yo-Yo. Relatively fast move.
• Dtilt : Throws the yo-yo at the opponents feet in a curve, causing a trip upon a successful hit. Trip's them in place, does not send them away from Ninten. relatively long start up to where it's easily projected to the enemy. However, it has extremely short end lag so that it can be punished heavily for getting hit by it.
• Utilt : throws yo-yo straight up at a pretty fast rate. Good damage and knockback. Can be held out similar to Ness' down smash by holding A. causes a flinch similar to falco's blaster when hit by the held yo-yo.
• Fsmash : Throws the Yo-Yo straight ahead. Able to be angled 45 degrees upward and downward similar to ganon's or roy's Ftilts. Able to be held out in place after the smash by holding A. Initial hit is strong and pushes enemies away in the direction that the attack was launched while the subsequent hit's have knockback similar to wolf blaster. Good for Edge guarding and shield pressure. Fair endlag
• Usmash : Exactly like ness' Usmash. When hit it sends enemies above Ninten. Can be held before the smash is thrown like Ness'
• Dsmash : Spins around with the Yo-yo in a fashion similar to that of Roy's Dsmash. Cannot be held out
• Nair : As proposed by @ Shin F. it would be similar to Ness' Nair but with increased range due to the yo-yo.
• Uair : Arc from in front of Ninten to behind him, similar to that of Wolf's Uair albeit with increased range. Good for setting up as it doesn't have much knockback but does stun a good amount. Ala Roy.
• Dair : Throw the Yo-Yo Straight downwards. It's a spike but not a very strong one.
• Fair : Spins and slices horizontally with the Yo-yo just like Ftilt, but with much more power while being a bit slower. Should have solid killing potential.
• Bair : Similar to Toon Link's Bair. Sending the Yo-yo in an arc from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head, it sends enemies higher into the air. Relatively fast.

I have no idea how to work out his B attacks (Special attacks) so someone should send me a PM about it so I can work it in. I'm considering giving him a tether recovery via yo-yo over the usual PK thunder.)

I'm still considering his Wavedash length, tech roll lengths and other such things but I don't have much to say about that stuff yet. I also haven't thought about how his grabs would work but they definitely involve grabbing with the Yo-yo.

I think there is good potential here as well.
What about you?

Would it be terribly offensive if I suggested that PSI Brain Cyclone could function similarly to Luigi's FS? I do realize there's the originality factor (which is a bit more of a factor considering a FS is more of an aesthetic feature) but I'll mention it anyways.
I was thinking it could simply cause immediate stun to any character in the radius for the duration of the move (it makes the enemy "feel strange," right?) unlike Luigi's, which just throws random things at random intervals and spikes Physics' drink, among other things. A proper tradeoff could be that there isn't any difference in KB within the Brain Cyclone, but every move induces a significant "paralyzer" effect (same as ZSS dsmash, about), allowing Ninten to go crazy with the combos for a while. Come to think of it though, paralyzer mechanics don't allow the effect to chain, so a workaround might be needed.

I hadn't thought about that, but it's actually quite brilliant. I like it. I could imagine the effects causing a prolonged stunning effect. That would be pretty cool.

I have another idea. What if the technique actually decreased knockback drastically for most of the duration, then increases it greatly just before the end? So, Ninten can get in a ton of combos without much knockback to knock the enemies away, and then at the end he can send them flying with increased knockback. It may sound OP, but it is a Final Smash, after all.

Edit: I want this as one of his yoyo attacks now. Maybe his Up-Smash.

 

[Halfhead]

Ninten and Claus/Masked Man both seem like alright ideas, but I agree with some other detractors that I'd prefer to see a character cloned from a moveset that isn't already shared by two or more characters.

If we're still thinking about Earthbound reps (which we should because Earthbound is awesome) I support Pokey or Porky.

There are two ways to impliment him. One could either clone him from Wario and have him do erraticly-sluggish moves involving a light use of PSI. An other way he could be done is by cloning ROB and have him in a mini mech (not unlike his Subspace Emissary form, just smaller). The spider mech or bed mech (both of which are used in the Mother series) would probably walk quite differently from ROB, so that might be a bit of an issue.

Earthbound aside, however, what is our stance on Dillon? We know that he is Smash-able due to his appearence in Sm4sh as an assist trophy, but a lot of people wanted to see him as a main character. Is he possible?

If he IS possible, I'd like him to be a heavier clone of Sonic with some explosion-based projectiles. If you've played either of his games, you'll know that they are tower defence games and most of his utility is born out of his rolling ability and weapon usery.

 

[Shin F.]

Ninten and Claus/Masked Man both seem like alright ideas, but I agree with some other detractors that I'd prefer to see a character cloned from a moveset that isn't already shared by two or more characters.

If we're still thinking about Earthbound reps (which we should because Earthbound is awesome) I support Pokey or Porky.

There are two ways to impliment him. One could either clone him from Wario and have him do erraticly-sluggish moves involving a light use of PSI. An other way he could be done is by cloning ROB and have him in a mini mech (not unlike his Subspace Emissary form, just smaller). The spider mech or bed mech (both of which are used in the Mother series) would probably walk quite differently from ROB, so that might be a bit of an issue.

Earthbound aside, however, what is our stance on Dillon? We know that he is Smash-able due to his appearence in Sm4sh as an assist trophy, but a lot of people wanted to see him as a main character. Is he possible?

If he IS possible, I'd like him to be a heavier clone of Sonic with some explosion-based projectiles. If you've played either of his games, you'll know that they are tower defence games and most of his utility is born out of his rolling ability and weapon usery.

A characters has to be in Brawl to be chosen, so Dillon is a no-go.

Incidentally, none of the Earthbound characters really do have the same base moveset.

 

[MoRkY]

Skull Kid

I think he should be able to DJC
He could have a poison dart move with his flute/blowdart gun (also a taunt where he whips it out and plays Saria's song).
His up B should be a teleport with a short hover before and/or after the port.
His side B would be steal which would be something in between Lucario's down B and metaknights dimensional cape.
His down B could be hover that gives armor or something (or maybe fairy related?!?)

 

[Szion]

Mother is not as big as starfox.
Ninten looks nearly the same as Ness but still easily has a lot that is unused in his games.
Space animals have a lot that they can use as well. Why do they have to be another super smash brothers version of star fox?

If one of them will make it in, make it krystal. That's only because she has access to that staff which isn't being used at all and has potential.

Ohey, another person who noticed the staff potential. Nice...!

 

[Darkmask]

OK, let's be honest, overepped or underrepped is just a bad excuse for anything. I do agree that another "spacie moveset" is a bad idea, I don't want a slightly slower Fox or slightly floatier Falco when it comes to Krystal/Slippy, I want a character that plays well and offers something I cannot get from someone who is already available. I would be happy to have Krystal join the P:M ranks as long as she filled a void that we don't currently have. Honestly, I could see her a fox-speed magic user, and I'm always up for quick characters.

I never played Mother 1, and I don't particularly care for Ninten, but same opinion applies. If he was incorporated with a genuinely different and playable moveset, and filled a void or role that is lacking in Brawl, I would be fine with his addition.

That said, this is why I like characters like Ridley or my Issac idea, an aerial specialist or a charging specialist, things we don't have yet. This is also why I don't like Pichu, because he is too similar to a character we already have, and honestly, if you take Pichu and completely redo his moveset to make him someone else, he's no longer Pichu and you might as well just put someone else in the game, IMHO.

 

[arcticfox8]

Lucario's moveset was completely redone from Brawl to PM
Should they take him out and add someone else instead?
I mean they might as well, amirite?

 

[NisforSmash]

So the guidelines are:
- Popularity doesn't matter that much
- Representation doesn't matter that much

What really matters is the uniquity of said moveset and/or playstyle. Popularity and Representation have a little effect after the uniquity of the move set and/or play style is taken into account. Those 2 factors should be used to solidify a characters stance after the fact as opposed to before. By creating the barrier of representation and popularity we lose the potential for a lot of really great characters as Shin F. said earlier.

I'm not sure about the rest of you but from now on i will not address or introduce any suggestion unless it has been made in context of a specific move set. The move set doesn't even have to be in the game yet (say if i were addressing an alternate side special for Saito's Ninten move set) but it does need to be a complete so i can judge and compare it appropriately.

I've done a lot of theory talk about Krystal recently. Although i'm not the most knowledgeable about her, I'd like to create a move set and play style for her. When i finish it, I'll upload it later for discussion. I've yet to see a decent Krystal move set so hopefully this could be a decent base.

I think productivity in this thread would increase if every move set or suggestion had context. Perhaps there should be a database of popular move sets? Thoughts on that?

 

[Anti Guy]

So the guidelines are:
- Popularity doesn't matter that much
- Representation doesn't matter that much

What really matters is the uniquity of said moveset and/or playstyle. Popularity and Representation have a little effect after the uniquity of the move set and/or play style is taken into account. Those 2 factors should be used to solidify a characters stance after the fact as opposed to before. By creating the barrier of representation and popularity we lose the potential for a lot of really great characters as Shin F. said earlier.

I'm not sure about the rest of you but from now on i will not address or introduce any suggestion unless it has been made in context of a specific move set. The move set doesn't even have to be in the game yet (say if i were addressing an alternate side special for Saito's Ninten move set) but it does need to be a complete so i can judge and compare it appropriately.

I've done a lot of theory talk about Krystal recently. Although i'm not the most knowledgeable about her, I'd like to create a move set and play style for her. When i finish it, I'll upload it later for discussion. I've yet to see a decent Krystal move set so hopefully this could be a decent base.

I think productivity in this thread would increase if every move set or suggestion had context. Perhaps there should be a database of popular move sets? Thoughts on that?

And whose guidelines are that? Like I've said multiple times, the moveset is always secondary in Smash, lest you forget the whole point of the game. The character comes first, and then the moveset derives from that. The only exception is clone characters, which would almost completely mimic a moveset (we're familiar with this from melee) in order to save substantial time.

 

[Saito]

So the guidelines are:
- Popularity doesn't matter that much
- Representation doesn't matter that much

What really matters is the uniquity of said moveset and/or playstyle.

Actually it depends on the individual.

You've got people in here that care mostly about popularity
You've got people that want specific things to be represented.
You've got people that want characters that have moveset potential.

The First two are very prevalent when looking at the vote chart.
Ridley being near the top (high popularity and underrepped series)
Shadow being near the bottom (Low popularity)
Pichu being near the bottom (Low popularity, Overrepped series)

If you look at a lot of the thread, some people even want Pichu back in as a joke character. That's essentially representation but not pokemon as much as it is melee.

Moveset potential is mostly an afterthought to most people here but I personally consider it something really important.

Moveset potential > Popularity > Representation
Most people are
Representation > popularity > Moveset potential.

 

[Shin F.]

I'd say for me, it really is a more situational basis. For most characters, I'd say Moveset potential = popularity > representation. In some special cases, however, representation becomes more important if a series is grossly under-repped. This mostly occurs with completely unrepped series, like Golden Sun, Advance Wars, and Custom Robo.

Moveset potential doesn't always mean unique moveset potential. It can also be a factor if the character has the potential to be a believable clone. The more cloney a character, the less time and effort it takes PMBR to create them. I am specifically against direct clones of already-cloned characters like Spacies because we've already got enough of their playstyles.

So, as far as representation, I wouldn't use it against a character from Mario or Zelda, but it does give more importance to characters like Isaac and Ray.

 

[MoRkY]

Actually it depends on the individual.

You've got people in here that care mostly about popularity
You've got people that want specific things to be represented.
You've got people that want characters that have moveset potential.

The First two are very prevalent when looking at the vote chart.
Ridley being near the top (high popularity and underrepped series)
Shadow being near the bottom (Low popularity)
Pichu being near the bottom (Low popularity, Overrepped series)

If you look at a lot of the thread, some people even want Pichu back in as a joke character. That's essentially representation but not pokemon as much as it is melee.

Moveset potential is mostly an afterthought to most people here but I personally consider it something really important.

Moveset potential > Popularity > Representation
Most people are
Representation > popularity > Moveset potential.

I'd agree and like to add that I think that Project M at it's core is about solid game play mechanics and a piece of that is each character's move set. A unique and fun move-set should probably override any other factor. That being said, I'm pretty sure that the Back Room is rad enough to put an awesome spin on any character.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

I'm definitely a move set potential > all kinda guy. It's just a good thing for me that out of my personal God tier (Lyn, Issac, Saki, Sami, Lip), 3 of them are popular (Lyn and Issac being popular as ****), three of them would be new reps of neglected but popular Nintendo franchises and two of them would be brand new to a Smash roster unofficial or not.

In a perfect world, the PMBR would be blessed with a way to get like 14 places total and I could go more wild trying to find some loophole to abuse so we get the aforementioned and Ray MKII, Takamaru (depending on how Smash4 works out), Mike Jones, Captain Syrup, Ashley, and a bunch of others I should go and think up.

 

[NisforSmash]

And whose guidelines are that? Like I've said multiple times, the moveset is always secondary in Smash, lest you forget the whole point of the game. The character comes first, and then the moveset derives from that. The only exception is clone characters, which would almost completely mimic a moveset (we're familiar with this from melee) in order to save substantial time.

The guidelines were just what i interpreted as the order of importance which as Saito pointed out is dependent on the person.

Personally i think moveset potential is > popularity = representation for any general series. Things get a little wonky when you throw in popular under-repped series' or extremely popular series' with decent representation. At that point it's a case by case basis.

 

[Darkmask]

Lucario's moveset was completely redone from Brawl to PM
Should they take him out and add someone else instead?
I mean they might as well, amirite?

Your logic is flawed, Lucario was already in Brawl to begin with, which is different than adding a character that is not in the game already. Plus, Newcario I like a lot because he again fills a void now that no other character does, he's a chain master and has an interesting gimmick in his Super Bars.

I only singled out Pichu because one of the biggest things I hear about him is that "Pichu players want him back" but "want him improved for P:M", the thing is, if you're improving him, you're taking away from what he was supposed to be in the first place, a joke character, he is supposed to be suicidingly speedy and hurt himself, he is a high risk, high return character (before Lucario did it with his Aura thing), thing is I don't see that as enough to carry the character alone when his moveset is effectively a clone of Pikachu.

I just don't like him, but if you like him, that's fine, more power to you and good luck in P:M including him in a future update.

As for character vs. use debate ... honestly I think it's moreso a mixture of both, and in the end it could go either way. Remember P:M is made by fans, not by people looking to turn a profit on this (they can't), if they wanted to, they could just include the 5 characters they, themselves, like the most, and make it 100% biased. Which, of course, is their right, since they're the ones doing this all for free in the first place. Who knows how they'll decide on the final 5 (and worse, who knows when we'll actually hear anything about it).

 

[Saito]

I only singled out Pichu because one of the biggest things I hear about him is that "Pichu players want him back" but "want him improved for P:M", the thing is, if you're improving him, you're taking away from what he was supposed to be in the first place, a joke character, he is supposed to be suicidingly speedy and hurt himself, he is a high risk, high return character (before Lucario did it with his Aura thing), thing is I don't see that as enough to carry the character alone when his moveset is effectively a clone of Pikachu.

Pichu was a high risk, low reward character.

That is only partially because of his self damage motif.
If they put that on fox, it would only make him slightly worse but he would still remain near the top.

That's because Fox has the tools to be successful. Pichu has few good tools, but his bad ones outweigh his good ones.

Who cares about keeping up with what Pichu was? Because he was bad or a joke character he should stay bad if he was in project M?
Isn't this a game designed to make everyone competitively viable? That's why they buffed characters in need of buffs, and changed characters that had things that were broken.

It's not like changes are off limits to this character. If they changed Pichu, it's more than likely to be met with positive reactions because of the fact that everyone knows that Pichu doesn't have the tools to be successful. They keep the good things about him, and buff the bad. You've suddenly got a viable character.

Look at kirby. He was the character that was right above Pichu on the tier list and I've seen so many people say wonderful things about Project M Kirby. Some people think he is even overpowered now. That's because they buffed his bad tools which made his original tools stand out even more.

Roy got it, Mewtwo got it, DK got it, and Link got it. Others as well.
Why would anyone who supports Pichu want anything but that treatment?

I don't see that as enough to carry the character alone when his moveset is essentially a clone of Pikachu

The literal existence of Luigi, Falco, Roy, Ganondorf, Lucas, and Toon link all exist to counter that statement.

You might say that some of these characters have received so many changes that they barely resemble who they were essentially cloned from but then why can't that happen to Pichu either? There's plenty of ways to make his moveset entirely different from Pikachu's or even visually similar but functionally different.

It's like you guys honestly believe that I want Pichu to be a joke. If that was the case I'd be asking for him in Smash 4. Sakurai would do a good enough job at that. I don't want that though. I want him in Project M because I know that the PMBR will do something worthwhile with him instead of him almost being completely useless.