[New] Arbiter Grounds - Ganondorf's Metagame Improvement Thread

[Bahamut777]

The Arbiter Grounds
Ganondorf's Metagame Improvement thread

Ganondorf's metagame has been stagnated for a loooooong time now. We are doing the same thing in our matches for what, 6 months? 1 year maybe? People are getting used to it. Ganon is not on his former self anymore. It's about time we bring him new options and review pretty much every option he already has. Ganon hungers for new blood on his hands. And he shall have it. The hard way.

Okey. The metagame improvement thread is, probably, the most important one on this "re-up" I'm prompting... Here we must focus all our infinite knowledge and think what Ganon should do in a match in general (not MU especific posts, please). How, why and when should he approach, recovery, punish, chase, defend, plank, stale...
Discussions will be made on this thread and, after enough discussion about one of these topics, we'll move on and a quoted summary will be updated on the first post along with the link to the page the discussion started. We won't, however, close the discussion, since metagame is a hard thing to define for sure.
I'll list the important points to discuss down here(the ones I can remember, that is) and we'll follow their order. If someone wants to point out a point to discuss, please fell free to do so and I'll update it on the first post as soon as I can. You can alro sort the points as your prefered importance order, if you want.

Let's focus here on stuff that can work on a high level of play match. No 1/20000 chance of working ATs, please. Now it's time for us to turn our Wiis on and break that game's physics to the most, trying to find NEW and UNTHINKABLE stuff to get profit from.



||| APPROACHING |||
Discussing...


||| RECOVERY |||

||| MOMENTUM CANCEL |||

||| PUNISHING |||

||| CHASING |||

||| SPACING |||

||| MOVING AROUND |||

||| EDGE GUARD |||

||| PLANKING/STALLING |||

||| DEFENSIVE GAME |||

||| BUILDING UP DAMAGE |||

||| FINISHING BLOW |||

||| FORESEEING |||​

 

[Z1GMA]

Baha, are you sure you'll put 100% effort in all 4 (5?) of your threads?

 

[Bahamut777]

I have "plenty" of "free time".
Don't worry.

 

[Z1GMA]

Not anylonger, heh...

 

[Breezy]

Ganon's best approach is backwards roll. Now onto recovery.

 

[Latias]

Ganon's best approach is backwards roll. Now onto recovery.

ganons best recovery options are hope the opponent cant gimp you. now onto momentum cancelling. (no point in this tbh)

 

[bigbucks]

edit: nevermind

 

[smashkng]

Unfortunately our recovery is one of the worst in the game and is a big factor, especially in teams because we take a lot of babysitting to prevent gimps or the partner hitting our recovery when the edge is too far (not as big factor in singles as Link's problems with recovery because we can rack up damage and kill extremely quickly if they give us a chance, but still is a pretty big factor, especially in teams, but we still have worse weaknesses than recovery) because our limited options when recovering and the fact that often we get too far from getting back even if the opponent does nothing because our recovery gives very little horizontal distance even when timed perfectly so it gives max horizontal distance. Ganon requires really good DI, because often if you don't you can't make it back horizontally (which is similar to Link), and with it we can occasionally 180 or 360 degree Murder Fist because it increases our Air Speed (which is why it isn't useless) if we are still too far to make it back without it. And that also means we don't get as far as we would otherwise so we have more hope of not getting gimped. After Momentum Canceling (read in the below paragraph) we can use Wizard Kick if you want to lose altitude quickly. I think if the opponent rushes we can Uair them or even spike surprise them if we are high enough to not suicide with it and the opponent isn't careful, and also Gerudo suicide occasionally, again by catching the opponent in a surprise. Unfortunately if we are too far from getting onstage without grabbing the edge (our ledge sweetspot size is pretty big), we are easily edge hogged because we can't mix our recovery there and we don't have any projectile unlike Link so it is easy to time the invincibility frames to our death.

About Up b there are many characters (I think MK, Marth, Falcon, ROB and another Ganon are biggest threat and can do bad stuff against it at any percent higher than like 40%, I think, the others gimpings like Falco's Dair are situational and only work at very specific percents, or the others working at almost any percent can't be used for gimping, just damage or Star KO at high percents). If we grab an edge hogger it can stage spike them but if they tech it we are in a really good position for the opponent to gimp us. The Uppercut however is much better in general. I think it has a disjoint (the hitbox is much bigger than it looks) without getting punished for landing it. By tapping down on the Control Stick we can avoid auto-sweetspotting the ledge which is often good to punish onstage edge guarders close to the edge or just landing on stage because of how annoying is the extra landing lag glitch (30 frames) when we grab the ledge after using the Up b. That also applies to side b but it is less anoying because the lag is only 20 frames compared to 30, so when grabbing the ledge it is usually good to use Side b so it replaces the Up b lag. Ledge drop double jump Uair to side b is good at keeping people away when they try to punish our get-up from the ledge and they're too close from us. We get the Side b lag though.

With Ganon you Momentum Cancel by fast falling immediately after a Uair/Bair (Uair is 2 frames faster though but that's very little difference) or just C-stick Dair if you're desperate when you're too far vertically but if you're not then it's better to not Fast Fall and just Momentum Cancel with Uair w/o FF. If you're too far horizontally you'll double jump after for a hope of it helping, though I think it doesn't help quite as much as characters like Link and Snake, but it still helps. Luckily we do still live very long w/ DI and MC and without getting gimped because of our weight and our relatively quick fall speed.

If there is something that I've said wrong, please correct me.

 

[Bahamut777]

I think we can do a little more improvement on the approach topic...

First off: I'm a very impatient fellow and I know it's a bad thing as a Ganon mainer, since we have to wait for Budha to wake up from his eternal slumber to attack. But I tend to take the preemptive strike on most of my matches. I repeat: IT'S NOT RECOMMENDED TO DO SO!
Still...

The Gargoyle Style:It's not an approach, actualy. I tend to use this vs every character that don't have any projectile. This resumes to put yourself at the ground and stay there, crouched, like a gargoyle. Then, when your opponent do ANYTHING, shield and then start the match by OoS with NAir, UAir or DTilt/Jab, whatsover is more efficient. It only works a few times before people figure out about this. WARNING: MISSING THIS WILL MESS YOUR DI LIKE HELL!

The Fullhop DAir baiting: It's not an approach as well, but forces the other one to approach and Ganon gets the upper hand. Full hop and baiting a DAir is good do it prevents aerial approaches and forces people to approach in the ground, where you can double jump -> punish them however you like.

The retreating reversed UAir approach: If there's no way your opponent be approaching you, run and SHAD. Once in his range, short hop -> Tipman while going back. This is a baiting so he can try to punish you on lag and then he get's reverse Jabed in the face.

The Dash Attack hammerhead approach: Be a troll and do this once in a while.

The reverse walk pivot Aerudo approach: My favourite one. walk towards the opponent, then turn around, walk a bit, jump away from him and then aerudo towards him. This is so hard to foresee, since you give the impression as you are retreating but you're approaching.

RAR BAir approach: This is my main use for BAir and I really like it. It's so good to hit someone, cancel and then go after them with a reverse Wizkick quasi-guaranteed to hit.

Reversed "Dash Buffered" USmash: Ok. I landed this ONCE in my entire career as a Ganon user. You run. You quickly turn arround. You buffer an Dashed USmash. If the opponent rolled behind you, he'll get hit and you can string him. If he don't roll behind you, you're in trouble.

Wizkick hammerhead approach: Like Dash attack, it's so straightforeward, so predictable, so punishable it's not worth using frequently, but...

Full Hop NAir bait -> Mid Air jump Aerudo approach: Verm's favourite (well... looked like it in the matches we played). You can easily bait an airdodge or retreat of your opponent with the NAir and then punish his approach with the Aerudo. It seemed pretty effective.

Retreating Pivot Grab approach: I like to use this against Warios. Walk towards them, once he jumps, walk back and then pivot grab after he's in range. You can get a release or a throw "string" off this with ease.

SHAD and Shield Walking: Most efficient defensive approach. It's almost unpunishable, except for some characters. If you learn how to time it, you get only 2 frames of vulnerability. I like to use this against compulsive spamming characters, like Falco and Samus.

I'm falling apart from sleepness. Thus my bad typing. Will try to point out more stuff when I can. Been busy the later days. Sorry.

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

Walking is the best thing I find for myself. It gives access to tilts and Jab for spacing, and Gerudo for punishing, and the obvious benefits of shield walking. Besides, rolling gets you nailed by timed smashes or grabs, and running only leaves Dash Attack as a reaction option (which I personally keep for Gerudo->IDA kills).

 

[Clai]

I'm not much for walking approaches myself. Ganon's really slow and the fact that it takes, at the least, 7 frames before he can actually do something outside of shield and dodge options, it gives your opponent plenty of time and waltz right in, use quick jabs, and get completely inside your face and **** you. In my opinion, Ganondorf is simply too slow to do wait-and-react games like other characters can. What I do with Ganon is to make sure that he never stays in one place for too long (when it comes to apporaching, that is) and make use of his solid aerial game and great fall speed.

Short-hop Bairs, Tipmans, Full-hop Nairs and the occasional Dair (either short-hopped or a Fast-Falled AC Dair from above) can all be used to approach and at the same time make sure that your opponent doesn't approach you with ease. The crucial part to doing this, though, is making sure that you both remain unpredictable and keep mind of your stage position. Obviously, you want to be out of your opponent's jab range, as that is where you're going to get hurt the most. Thankfully, Ganon's aerials do a pretty good job at protecting Ganon's space, especially Uair, as that protects in front and behind Ganon.

The biggest boon to your approach is predicting what your opponent is going to do. If you can see a pattern in your opponent's approaching/defending gameplay, rush in, perfect shield the imminent attack, or otherwise act accordingly depending on what you're predicting your opponent to do. Knowing your opponent's space and how he will protect it is an indisputable part of playing this game, and you need to use your information wisely.

 

[GanonkingAbyss]

i think i do the the 6th thing bahamut777 says, someone told me its zigmas, i approach w/bair, double jump w/another bair, no bair, i mix it up, and i end w/ a down b above the opponent, once they start trying to sheild the down b, i side b to grab thier sheild, although no one ever guards, they just try uairing me or something(dair would probably fix that i guess..) they only other approaches i use are da, side b, and walking ps approach vs projectile users

 

[Dumbfire]

To improve our metagame, we need more Ganons as well. I got the perfect idea, everyone that plays yugioh should get a deck with this guy.
http://www.pojo.com/yu-gi-oh/cotd/2010/Mar/29.shtml
Yeah, its basicly Ganondorf in Yu-gi-oh.

Garlandorf
Ganondorf

That can't be a coinsedence right o.o
Especially becasue yu-gi-oh has had more of those "rips", as a kind of joke.

 

[Exalted]

Epic card is epic.
But doesn't it say Garlandolf?

Someone get M2K to main Ganondwarf now.
M2K + Character = Metagame improvent.

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

Got 3 of those and working on it already - and Exalted, they had to spell it wrong to avoid the wrath of the real thing .

We know how Ganon can dash away from an air approach and buffer a reverse Gerudo to punish the landing. But sometimes an opponent can get too close to Ganon with their air movement as he retreats and interrupt his Gerudo attempt (Wario being one of my worst offenders). Is it possible to reverse Dash Attack instead for those cases?

 

[Dumbfire]

Too bad rituals suck. We need the Jinns defenitly. Some "decent" ritual support came out, but the only really useful are the Jinns, and maybe the Ritual Cage.
I'll get working on it too. Too bad its Ultra Rare, its not like he's that awesome (lol sorry) and that gonna cost some money

 

[Bahamut777]

C'mon, people... keep up on topic... =\

I've found out, recently, that a reckless Aerudo approach CAN be effective at a match's start, when people try to take the lead by punishing you first. Aerudo is punishable only on dodge, so I think it's a pretty safe stock starter.

 

[Exalted]

I usually start with Gerudo/Aerudo or a Warlock Punch whenever I'm feeling lucky.

 

[Bahamut777]

or a Warlock Punch whenever I'm feeling lucky.

That is the manliest and the worst way to start a match.
Really.

 

[Exalted]

I know.

But it's Ganon we're talking about. How could things get any worse?

 

[Dumbfire]

By sandbagging.
You can start the match taunting too, upsetting you're opponent. And then the reckless aerudo.

 

[Exalted]

Most of the time though, I just try and wait for my opponent to mess up in the beginning and punish his sorry ***.

Oh, and more Warlock Punches.

 

[Clai]

Approaching with any sort of Flame Choke is usually not a good idea. When you're approaching someone, the opponent will typically be on the defensive, keeping all of his movement options ready to use, and it's too easy to avoid a Flame Choke and punish. Flame Choke is a lot better when used defensively.

Wizard's Foot is an okay approach, especially if you can edge cancel it. It can be used to catch people off guard or punish any lag that someone has but is too far away for Ganon to punish with his normal moves. Again, this is not something you want to throw out hanky-panky, but it's a usuable option for the most part.

 

[Exalted]

Should Ganon even approach to begin with? xD

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Ganon CAN approach, he's just horrible at doing so. Atleast it's not as bad as Zelda's approaches.

 

[Bahamut777]

We should focus on this topic more oftenly... let's move to recovery now?
I'll work a little more on approaching around here...

 

[smashkng]

Bahamut, if we move into recovery, you could read my post in the previous page. It doesn't say all about our recovery though.

 

[bigbucks]

I have found my self approaching with wizkick more. its effective when trying to deal with huge walls(Marths fair/nair walls come in mind) from afar. The bad thing tho, at low percents, its punishable even if you hit it with it(due to the inmense ending lag that ends after the hitstun the opponent took is in effect) At higher percents you shouldn't worry about this since the knockback will keep them far away from you. A solution to the problem is spacing yourself correctly so you wizkick edge cancel.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I find myself approaching with wizkick more often. It's effective for dealing with effective walls(Marths fair/nair walls come in mind) from afar. The bad part however, it's punishable at low percents even if you land it(due to the immense ending lag that happens after the hitstun wears off). At higher percents you shouldn't worry about that since it will hit them far enough away. A solution to the problem is spacing yourself correctly so you can wizkick edge cancel.

Ganon Troll.

 

[Dumbfire]

Hes not even trolling.
............. =/

 

[-LzR-]

Well sadly it's true, but Wizkick isn't bad approach considering his other options. You just need to be very precise as it has sad priority.

 

[Dumbfire]

Talking about Ganon trolling..
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8827/hahahaa.png
http://i33.tinypic.com/1zf0wp4.png
http://i33.tinypic.com/14djchu.png
http://i36.tinypic.com/5ufqcx.png
http://i36.tinypic.com/311rtsp.png
http://i38.tinypic.com/6i6t7r.png

 

[bigbucks]

its better than some of his other options.... >_>;.

The thing about ganon is that most of his approaches rely on bait and punishing rather than being good on their own. therefore making them bad.