Ness's Moveset Discussion - Rediscussion of Current Moves

[Gaussis]

While I don't recall anyone ever doing a moveset discussion for Ness, I'm not going to search for one and revive it . We're doing a new one boys.

Anyway, this is our (lacking) moveset discussion. We will discuss of possible strategies using each and every one of Ness's moves. After discussion, I will put the main points of each move so we have a reference of sorts. Also, I will give the moves a rating each for certain properties, such as priority, range, and knockback so you know what to incorporate into your game. The rating will go like this.

- Poor
- Subpar
- Average
- Good
- Excellent

Also, any added is an additional score given with an explanation in red. These are given to exceptional moves.

Ok, so let's get this underway.



Move #1: Jab
Jab [A(+A+A)]. It's Ness's Jab. A combination of two punches and a kick at the end.

1st Jab: 3%
2nd Jab: 3%
3rd Jab (Kick): 3%
Knockback:
Speed:
Priority:
Range:
Overall Rating:

Frame Data

Jab#1

Start up: 2
Hits: 3
Hitlag:4-8
ENDS: 24
Shield lag: 6
Shield stun: 1

Jab #2

Start up: 2
Hits:3
Hitlag:4-7
ENDS: 23
Shield lag: 5
Shield stun: 1

Jab #3

Start up: 4
Hits: 5
Hitlag: 6-10
ENDS: 33
Shield Lag: 6
Shield Stun: 1

Knockback Growth Rate (KGR)

Starting Knockback Rates
Jab: 566 mph
AA: 557 mph
AAA: 1927 mph

Knockback Growth Rate
Jab: 5.8 mph
AA: 4.4 mph
AAA: 14.1 mph

Summary: This move deals a small amount of damage. Nevertheless, it has quite a few applications. It's most basic function is to knock the opponent away from Ness. It can be canceled to follow up with a grab or another jab. It can also be used for a jab lock. It is a fast move that can relieve Ness of pressure situations on the ground. Each jab has good range for jabs, especially Ness's third jab (the kick).



Move #2: Ftilt
Ftilt (Forward/Side+A). It's Ness's roundhouse kick in action. It may not be a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick, but it gets the job done.

Damage:

• Angled Upward: 12%
• Angled Downward: 10%
• Standard Ftilt: 11%

Knockback:
Speed:
Priority:
Range:
Overall Rating:

Frame Data

Start up: 6
Hits:7
Hit lag: 8-16
Ends: 42
Shield Lag: 9
Shield Stun: 3

KGR

Starting Knockback Rates
F tilt (up): 1385 mph
F tilt (middle): 1322 mph
F tilt (Down): 1265 mph

Knockback Growth Rates
F tilt (up): 33.2 mph
F tilt (middle): 30.9 mph
F tilt (Down): 28.4 mph

Summary: This move is seen as an attack to get the opponent away from Ness. It isn't bad in knockback and can actually kill at decent percentages fresh. However, it cannot be truly relied on as a kill move since it lacks sufficient knockback. It's range is also an issue since some characters outrange this move enough to be universally useful. It is relatively fast and has high priority, enough to be able to beat many projectiles.

One of it's more obscure uses is to disrupt aerial spacing tilted upwards. Tilting it downwards causes tripping.



Move #3: Utilt
Utilt (Up+A). Ness sets up a spike. No, not his dair spike, a volleyball spike.

Knockback:
Speed:
Priority:
Range:
Overall Rating:

Frame Data

Up tilt

Start up:4
Hits:5
Hit lag: 6-11
ENDS: 36
Shield Lag: 7
Shield Stun: 3

KGR

Starting Knockback Rate
2280 mph

KnockBack Growth Rate
26.9 mph

Summary: Utilt is perhaps Ness's best ground move. This move protects Ness quite well from above and can even beat aerials that might not even seem to trade hits with. More information on those aerials here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190639.

At low percentages, it can juggle opponents quite well. Combining this with uair can rack up damage rather quickly. It can also be used with PKT.

Surprisingly, this move can kill if fresh. However, it shouldn't be relied on as such because upward kill moves can be DI'ed quite well and it kills at % the opponent would be dead from a standard kill move anyway. Nonetheless, a suprise kill is a kill, so if it works, by all means.



Move #4: Usmash
Usmash (Up+A Smash). Ness's around the world yoyo trick.

Knockback:
Speed:
Priority:
Range:
Overall Rating: +
This move has varying uses.

Frame Data

Up smash (Charging hit)

Start up: 8
Hits: 9
Hit lag: 10-14
Ends: ????
Shield Lag: 6
Shield Stun: 3


Up smash

Start up: 8
Hits: 9, 15
Hit lag: 10-14, 16-22
Ends: 65
Shield Lag: 8
Shield stun: 3

KGR

Starting Knockback Rates
Up smash 4% hit: 2675 mph
Up smash full: 3460 mph

Knockback Growth Rates
Up smash 4% hit: Set knock back
Up smash full hit: 15.7 mph

Summary: This smash attack is very unlike other smashes. Instead of increasing its strength, it stays out when being charged. The yoyo can hit anyone during its charging animation. Usually, this hit comboes into his second hit after releasing the charge.

The second hit of usmash goes completely around Ness, hitting any opponent within the range of the yoyo. Some aerials are able to clash the yoyo unharmed, so be cautious.

There are many uses with usmash. For one, it can be used as an approach. Using the charge on shields can limit the opponent's options against Ness. The yoyo also has a large priority against many ground attacks and projectiles. It can also be used to edgeguard opponents on the ledge.

There are different ways to use this move. Check this link for more information.



Move #5: Dtilt
Dtilt (Down+A). Ness kicks at an insane speed. o_O Must be his excitedness.

Knockback:
Speed:
Priority:
Range:
Overall Rating:

Frame Data

Start up:2
Hits:3
Hit lag: 4-5
Ends: 15
Shield lag: 6
Shield stun: 1

KGR

Starting Knockback Rate
224 mph

Knockback Growth Rate
2.8 mph

Summary: Pending...




Move #6: Fsmash
Fsmash (Forward/Side+A Smash). SMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH! His bat packs a powerful punch.

Knockback:
Speed:
Priority:
Range:
Overall Rating:

Frame Data

Start up: 20
Hits: 21
Hit lag: 22-34
Ends: 67
Shield Lag: 14
Shield Stun: 8

KGR

Starting Knockback Rates
Forward smash tip uncharged: 2938 mph
Forward smash tip fully charged: 3827 mph

Knockback Growth Rates
Forward smash in on hands uncharged: 2527 mph
Forward smash in on hands charged: 3033 mph

Summary Pending...



Move #7: Dsmash
Dsmash (Down+A Smash). OMG he's walking the dog. An excellent way to discourage rolling.

Knockback:
Speed:
Priority:
Range:
Overall Rating:

Frame Data

Down smash charging hit

Start up: 9
Hits: 10
Hit lag: 11-15
Ends: ????
Shield Lag: 6
Shield stun: 3

Down Smash

Start up: 9
Hits: 10, 17
Hit lag: 11-15, 18-24? (Hard to tell, there seems to be frames where Ness/ Yo Yo is completely still in his down smash, these are not hit lag ones though...)
ENDS: 75
Shield Lag: 9
Shield Stun: 4

KGR

Starting Knockback Rates
Down smash 4% hit: 2675 mph
Down smash full hit: 3628 mph

Knockback Growth Rate
Down smash 4% hit: Set knock back
Down smash full hit: 21.4 mph

Summary: Pending...



Move #8: PK Flash
PK Flash (B). The light lures its the opponent to his death.

Knockback:
Speed:
Priority:
Range:
Overall Rating:

Frame Data

Quick Flash
Start up: 42
Hits: 43
Ends:69
Time between hit and end: 26

PK Flash Fully charged

Start up: 146
Hits: 147
Ends: 173

Frames opponent is stunned after end time: 4

KGR

Starting Knockback Rates
PK flash uncharged: 845 mph
PK flash fully charged: 3203 mph

Knockback Growth Rates
PK flash uncharged: 18.26 mph
PK Flash fully charged: 65.13 mph

Summary: Pending...



_________________________________________________________________________________
*Note: Any picture contributions are welcome. I cannot load any due to malfunctioning equipment .
*Note2: Some of the pictures here are "borrowed" (yes borrowed ) from Yoshi's Ness Guide.
*Note3: Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

 

[Gaussis]

Next move is:
PK Flash. The light lures the opponent to his death.

If you managed to stumble upon this, ignore it :D.

Summaries pending...
Dtilt. Ness kicks at an insane speed. o_O
Fsmash
Dsmash. OMG, he's walking the dog :O.

 

[PKNintendo]

Is it safe to post?

Well okay, Ness jabs are average at best. They do slightly below average damage (9 instead of 10) but the stun is nice. It's not good or bad, it's so-so.

 

[Neon Ness]

We need Ref or Levi for damage/frame daterz.

Ness' jab is like anyone else's; your basic get outta mah way move at close range, and it comes out quickly. Should be learned at basic levels of play for aspiring Ness', considering how many characters can benefit from getting close to Ness and grabbing him. A spacing tool that gets the job done, but not much more.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Ness' jab is good, it has decent stun, good for spacing, a long jab lock, and it comes out quick and can be canceled by crouching. :D

 

[Gaussis]

Ness' jab is good, it has decent stun, good for spacing, a long jab lock, and it comes out quick and can be canceled by crouching. :D

Yes. Let's not forget that Ness does indeed have a Jab Lock. Even if it is situational, a Jab Lock is a free combo . Anything else?

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Um, the jab leads into a few things, but that's all else I can think of. ^^;

Also I think it has a good amount of priority, I use it to cancel Dedede's Ftilt.

 

[PKNintendo]

Oops, I forgot about the jab lock.

 

[Levitas]

I'll give some frames when I redo it, until then Ref's numbers are here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207559 (fixed for great not sucking)

Jabs are a great GTFO option, and often are useful if you can predict the shield grab or their shield is relatively depleted.

Do use it to clank tilts.

Do not use it to clank smashes.

Unfortunately, most of the stuff that it clanks with comes out in under 10 frames, and it's not frame 1 anyway, so you're gonna have to predict stuff in order to clash with the jab.

Do NOT use this against Metaknight if you want to clank his moves. It won't work. MK's sword and Marth's side b have this "no clank" clause or something, which I'm sure a lot of you know about already.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness jab starts on the second frame?

 

[Ref]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207559

The all is brawl frame data is out of date look for my frame data in that link....

 

[xoxokev]

The jab. It's the move to use when your opponents THINK they can punish you. It's faster than most smashes. It's good to use when you get close enough after fair spamming. It's good to use after a Surface to Air Missile. It punishes spot dodging (usually). Personally, I like Ness' jab. I wish it had more range tho

 

[Gaussis]

It's faster than all smashes IIRC. However, there are a few moves that beat it.

 

[Neon Ness]

It's faster than all smashes IIRC.

Even 's Down Smash? It comes out pretty fast...

EDIT: Shoulda looked before posting. Meta's dsmash comes out on frame 5, 3 frames after Ness' jab...

 

[Earthbound Zero]

You mean 2 frames. I hits on frame 3.

 

[Gaussis]

Even 's Down Smash? It comes out pretty fast...

EDIT: Shoulda looked before posting. Meta's dsmash comes out on frame 5, 3 frames after Ness' jab...

's dsmash is faster. 4 Frames.

 

[Earthbound360]

We still win in terms of speed :D

 

[FireKirby7]

's dsmash is faster. 4 Frames.

Marth's fsmash is like, 1 frame. @_@

Anyway Ness jab is average to me. If you use nair/fair and land on the ground, always follow up with a jab, it works great and it's very safe.

 

[Ref]

Marth's F smash is 10 frames. No where close to 1 if you want to see 1 frame anything go perform zero suit Samus' or Squirtle's jab.

 

[FireKirby7]

I know, I was just kiddin...... I can just never dodge it, it sucks >.<

 

[Ref]

Was it on WiFi?

Seriously you can't avoid things on WiFi, that is why I hardly shield on it.

 

[FireKirby7]

I never played a good Marth offline, so yeah, online for me. :embarrass

Oh and can Ness do anything with Jab cancel? Any follow-ups?

 

[xoxokev]

Of course, Ness can do ANYTHING out of a jab cancel. But those follow ups are may not be guaranteed (actually, I don't know any guaranteed follow ups out of jab cancel, because the opponent may have time to spot dodge or shield).

Some possible follow ups may be:
-up smash
-f tilt
-more jabs?

EDIT: Also, Gaussis, if you're lazy, you can always just jack the screen shots off Yoshi's Guide to PK Style. I'm pretty sure he has all the moves on it. Just be sure to credit him for the pics or something

 

[Ref]

Grab is good because usually people put up their shield after being hit.

Therefore even if it's not guaranteed you can grab the shield.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Dtiltz!

10Dtiltz.

 

[xoxokev]

Yeah I was going to mention grab, but usually won't the jab push your opponent in just the exact position to be too far for a standing grab and too close for a dash grab?...

AHA!
Solution: walk up a little, then grab...

 

[Gaussis]

Actually, that idea didn't occur to me. Thanks xoxokev. Pics are still welcome though. Now, I'll just make an edit...

It's not because I'm lazy . Read the post.

 

[FireKirby7]

Ness has a jab grab? You sure it'll work? People always jab/DI away/spotdodge when they get jabbed. And I mean EVERYONE.

 

[xoxokev]

^ No, I don't think Ness has a reliable jab grab (like Captain Falcon, or Fox), but it could be a possible follow up from jab canceling

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Jab>Grab would be awesome at high percents. @.@ (Bthrow~)

 

[Ref]

It's not a reliable follow up, not as reliable as Captain falcons... But you can get it off very often.

 

[ColinJF]

No jab cancel stuff in the game is reliable.

 

[Ref]

No jab cancel stuff in the game is 100% guaranteed.

Fixed.

Reliable does not mean it has to be 100% guaranteed. Reliable just means you are able to pull it off on opponents about 60% or more of the time

 

[Levitas]

60% is NOT reliable.

Especially if it's 60% on the people that most people play. Then it's like 30-20% on decent people.

 

[Ref]

Actually 60% is what makes something reliable... 40% means unreliable. 50 is even...

In science 60% is what determines if a change is positive or Negative. So 60% determines whether it is reliable or not.

60% is the minimum something can be to be reliable. really you should be looking for something 80% or higher.

 

[Levitas]

I maintain that according to your definition, you'll lose a set that you reliably win 7 for every 20 times you attempt it. I don't think that's reliable.

I don't drive my car and hope it starts on 60% of my attempts to get somewhere.

I don't show up to work on time 60% of the times I'm scheduled to work.

I don't pass a class by knowing the 60% of the material.

I don't bet money on a coin that's only weighted for a 10% difference.

I don't get further than round 2 without losing 42% of the time in 3 game sets on your definition of reliable.


Ok, so some of those analogies weren't fair. But a reliable amount of them were, according to your definition. So those are analogies you can rely upon. Have I made my point?

 

[Ref]

I maintain that according to your definition, you'll lose a set that you reliably win 7 for every 20 times you attempt it. I don't think that's reliable.

I don't drive my car and hope it starts on 60% of my attempts to get somewhere.

I don't show up to work on time 60% of the times I'm scheduled to work.

I don't pass a class by knowing the 60% of the material.

I don't bet money on a coin that's only weighted for a 10% difference.

I don't get further than round 2 without losing 42% of the time in 3 game sets on your definition of reliable.


Ok, so some of those analogies weren't fair. But a reliable amount of them were, according to your definition. So those are analogies you can rely upon. Have I made my point?

You can rely on a car that starts 60% of the time... A person is reliable showing up 60% of the time unless you demand them to show up a higher percent of the time. 60% is 3 out of 5 meaning you have a higher chance of success than failure...

Also if you flip a coin and get heads 1000 times before you get tails it's still a 50% chance...
So I would rely on that coin to get me heads again and if I had to make a bet I'd say heads.

Technically you can rely on anything that isn't at an advantage to fail.

 

[Zankoku]

I wouldn't call something "reliable" unless it were 90% success rate. After all, if it were "reliable" I should be able to rely on it, right?

60% means it could be something to look at, but it's still not reliable. I don't see how you're arbitrarily defining a 10% difference from 50% as significantly reliable or unreliable. In science, we guess at what's going to happen, try it, record what happens, and try it again. If something unexpected happens, we sure as hell better figure out what the sources of error are, and I'm definitely not going to put my stakes on something at 60%.

In Janken, any given choice has a 66.7% chance of not losing. Would you rely on that single choice throughout the game? I would hope not.

 

[Ref]

Any given choice has a 66.7% chance of NOT losing? You can rely on All of them... Therefore you'll probably have no problem deciding if you have the same chance.

10% makes a difference from 50% because it shows completely that 1 side has the advantage.

I'd play a game that I'd have a 60% chance of winning because the advantage is to me. Basically if you had to choose between someone with a 60% chance and a 40% chance you'd probably choose the 60% chance because it is more reliable.

 

[Levitas]

You can rely on a car that starts 60% of the time...

Your friends must not like you. After all, you can only get to their place to hang out on a 60% chance in your reliable car. So you leave them hanging almost as often as not. Not only that, but you only call to let them know 60% of the time that you won't be able to make it. So they're really left hanging more than 10% of the time, which really sucks.

A person is reliable showing up 60% of the time unless you demand them to show up a higher percent of the time.

Hold a job for a week with that mentality. I dare you to try.

60% is 3 out of 5 meaning you have a higher chance of success than failure...

50.001% is 50,001 for every 100,000 meaning you have a higher chance of success than failure...

Also if you flip a coin and get heads 1000 times before you get tails it's still a 50% chance... So I would rely on that coin to get me heads again and if I had to make a bet I'd say heads.

I'd bet tails and win just as often as you. There's nothing about reliable in that statement, however.

Technically you can rely on anything that isn't at an advantage to fail.

By that logic, I will never EVER beat a metaknight opponent of unknown skill as a pikachu. Or as an Olimar. Or as AT LEAST 90% of the cast.