Ness vs Lucas

[NESSBOUNDER]

IMO, Lucas's Pk thunder is better, but Ness's PK thunder 2 is better.

 

[Aevin]

I would disagree, but it's just an opinion. I absolutely adore the multiple hits on Lucas's, and it often goes just the tiniest bit further than the opponent expects, hitting them with the almost invisible flare-up at the end which has the most knock back.

 

[Ademisk]

I agree with Aevin's point about the distance, but people are going to get used to that. Lucas's is better for damage dealing, but it's easier to predict, and shield, plus it's not as good of a kill move as Ness's is. Ness's is probably better overall, but it really depends on how you use it. Lucas's PK Thunder is a hundred times better

 

[thespoiler]

Thank you for going into so much of a hassle to tell us the differences between Lucas and Ness. They are my two favorite characters, and it is helpful to know their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm probably going to main Lucas in the end, because I've been looking for a new playstyle for quite a while now. Thing is, I've put so much work into Ness, that I don't want to stray far from his fighting style. I'm so happy they decided to add Lucas in Brawl. This gives me a fresh, and new character to play while not straying too far from the norm.

 

[Smashbros_7]

If you compare just the moves, you can only draw the conclusion that Lucas's are better.

However, Ness isn't about individual moves, but his moveset as a whole.

I thought I'd mention that I ran a test on the two characters' PK Magnets, and it really does appear that Lucas's is superior in every way. I don't believe Ness's has an advantage as far as what it absorbs (I tested this on Ice Climbers' ice blocks, which, sadly, can not be absorbed by either character). Lucas's not only has the same field of effect (it does work from the back), but it comes out faster and can be used as a pretty nice attack. They both heal the same percentages. Lucas's PK Magnet beats Ness's hands down.

Same goes for PK Thunder. Lucas's is WAY more useful. It bounces your opponents around helplessly, and does not disappear like Ness's does so you can hit them multiple times. Like many of Lucas's moves, this is a GTFO kind of attack, sending opponents far away if you can score more than one hit (which you usually can). As mentioned before, Lucas's PK Missile goes further, and he has a rope snake for recovery, making his overall recovery better.

So, if Lucas has the better recovery, the better PK thunder and PK Magnet, what exactly does Ness have?

The answer is ... Quite a lot. His ease in approaching enemies and chaining attacks together ... Lucas can only dream of. In my opinion, this more than makes up for Lucas's advantages. Very quick aerials (several of which can be used as KO moves) with barely any lag afterwards and just enough knockback to keep opponents in range for the next. When fighting with Ness, I feel like I can easily use his forward aerial or dash attack to attack enemies with relatively low chance of retaliation. If I hit, I can press the attack without fear. Ness's throws--while they don't have quite the reach of Lucas's rope snake--are quick, have great range and are far more powerful than Lucas's. No more flailing helplessly if you grab while running. For those familiar with jump-canceling Ness's throws in melee, it's like you jump cancel them automatically ... plus a little.

With Lucas, on the other hand, I have to carefully approach opponents using my quickest moves (usually my neutral aerial or my forward tilt) and watch carefully for openings to land smash attacks. In all of this, I have this feeling that if I miss, I'm gonna be punished. Yes, his up smash is powerful, but if you miss with it ... you're toast. The only smash I feel I can use without getting bashed if I miss is his stick, which is lacking in range. His killing moves are all tricky and dangerous to use.

I still believe the two are on equal ground. I can win just as often with both, but I feel more balanced with Ness, and less like I have to carefully play to his strengths to avoid utter, humiliating defeat.

EDIT: I also wanted to mention ... People stealing recovery by out prioritizing the PK Thunder is rarely a problem for Lucas. The projectile is so close to his body that it's really hard for people to hit the thunder but not the boy, (thereby allowing him to use PK Thunder again). Ness is not so fortunate. They can pretty much steal your recovery exactly like they could in Melee, except that the thunder moves faster.

Lucas Psi Magnet recovers the damage dealt to Lucas.
Ness Recovers TWICE the damage dealt to Ness.

So in turn Lucas' Psi Magnet doesn't overshadow Ness, but it's way better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79H7Eb5nUqU
^
Proof on my theory.

 

[Hardcorenesser]

What was that supposed to prove? if it was supposed to prove that Ness's psi magnet recovers twice the damage dealt, then you just wasted ten minutes of my ******* life

 

[Smashbros_7]

His guide said Ness was inferior in everyway. Plus your a NESS fan with a Giga Bowser avatar. There mortal enemeies.

EX: Gimpy vs Simna

EX2: Ness is one spot higher than Bowser in Melee.

 

[Hardcorenesser]

His guide said Ness was inferior in everyway. Plus your a NESS fan with a Giga Bowser avatar. There mortal enemeies.

EX: Gimpy vs Simna

EX2: Ness is one spot higher than Bowser in Melee.

Ya but all the Ness avatars were taken and bowser is cool (but in no way better then Ness). I'll change my avatar when i can find a Ness one that's not taken. Also, Ness is NOT inferior you *******. He owns Lucas any day. Also, if Lucas was so much better, why was he such a ******* coward in the SSE? And why did Ness have to defend him? The answer to that question is: because Ness is better. If Lucas was so much better, perhaps he should have defended himself in the SSE you *****. Normally i don't have a problem with Lucas, but any time he challenges Ness's superiority, he deserves a spanking.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Ya but all the Ness avatars were taken and bowser is cool (but in no way better then Ness). I'll change my avatar when i can find a Ness one that's not taken. Also, Ness is NOT inferior you *******. He owns Lucas any day. Also, if Lucas was so much better, why was he such a ******* coward in the SSE? And why did Ness have to defend him? The answer to that question is: because Ness is better. If Lucas was so much better, perhaps he should have defended himself in the SSE you *****. Normally i don't have a problem with Lucas, but any time he challenges Ness's superiority, he deserves a spanking.

Calm down, he said it not me.

I think there both awesome in there own way.

 

[Kiki52]

Lucas Psi Magnet recovers the damage dealt to Lucas.
Ness Recovers TWICE the damage dealt to Ness.

So in turn Lucas' Psi Magnet doesn't overshadow Ness, but it's way better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79H7Eb5nUqU
^
Proof on my theory.

What minute and second on that video does it demonstrate that Ness' PK Magnet recovers twice as much as Lucas' PK magnet? I think that is what Hardcorenesser was angry about, it takes too long and he'd like to see where it is immediately. If you can show other people what minute and second in this video where Ness' PK Magnet recovers twice as much as Lucas does, then maybe both Ness and Lucas fans can be in awe of it.

So far, I've heard that Lucas recovers 50% more than Ness.

 

[Smashbros_7]

What minute and second on that video does it demonstrate that Ness' PK Magnet recovers twice as much as Lucas' PK magnet? I think that is what Hardcorenesser was angry about, it takes too long and he'd like to see where it is immediately. If you can show other people what minute and second in this video where Ness' PK Magnet recovers twice as much as Lucas does, then maybe both Ness and Lucas fans can be in awe of it.

So far, I've heard that Lucas recovers 50% more than Ness.

CRAP! WRONG VID

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai8T74ii7AY

8:36

 

[Kiki52]

Lucas Psi Magnet recovers the damage dealt to Lucas.
Ness Recovers TWICE the damage dealt to Ness.

So Ness recovers twice as much damage using PK Magnet than Lucas recovers using PK magnet? The video showed Lucas recovering 150% more than Ness does at the time you specified.

Now I'm confused. Did you end up switching the names Lucas and Ness by accident?

 

[Percon]

I think Ness may have the better offensive game and Lucas may have the better defensive one.

That being said, I enjoy Lucas more, personally.

 

[Smashbros_7]

I can't believe I mixed them up... Lucas Psi Magnet is better.

 

[Ademisk]

This topic is why I suggest all Ness players go to war with Lucas players. They will never stop being compared to eachother, so they can never be friends.

 

[Serpit]

Sadly, this is the truth xD
Lucas and Wolf gave birth to a new type of character, who have similar special moves as their supposed originals, but completely different mvoesets beyond that, yet they keep being compared when they play so very differently.

 

[MarvinTPA]

So Ness recovers twice as much damage using PK Magnet than Lucas recovers using PK magnet? The video showed Lucas recovering 150% more than Ness does at the time you specified.

:

no,no,no!!!!
Ness recovers twice the attack power of the incoming projectile!!!!
Lucas recovers 250%!!!!
(it can't be 300% (which is 150% of Ness's), that's ridiculous.)

FOR FREAKING EXAMPLE:
Charge shot: 20% (ah who cares what it really is)
Ness recovers 40%
Lucas either 50 or 60%.

 

[Hardcorenesser]

so what. Lucas's psi magnet is still better then Ness's.

 

[Ademisk]

And according to reports, Ness's overall range is better. For example, getting under Lucas and firing a PK Thunder is a sure hit. I tried it, it worked. PSI Magnet was out.

 

[Kiki52]

Well I once saw this video where Lucas in the air over the ledge and his opponent, I don't know who it was but I think it was a Ness player, fired an energy projectile (yes, I am sure it was energy based not physical like a pikmin or samus missile) at him while he had his PK magnet out. But his PK magnet was facing the wrong way. Mind you, Lucas was in the air when he had his PK magnet out and it was facing the opposite way of the projectile. Lucas actually got hit by the projectile and he didn't absorb it.

I think if Lucas is on land and an energy projectile comes to his back, he will turn around and absorb it. If Lucas is in the air, and he uses PK magnet then, and he is facing the wrong way, the energy projectile will hit him.

That's what I saw in a video.

So I don't know. Maybe Lucas cannot absorb from the backside with PK magnet if he is airborne while doing it while I would guess Ness could.

 

[Ademisk]

Ness absorbs anything that comes anywhere near him. Absorbing Din's fire is too good.

 

[Serpit]

Sorry guys, but I have no idea what you're talking about o_O
I've played Lucas lot now, and from my experience he's absolutely invulnerable to energy projectiles as soon as he gets the Magnet out, no matter if he's on the ground or in the air. Air turn-around is definitely possible. Also, in the case that he gets simultaneously shot from both sides, he won't even turn around but still absorb the shots from behind. (As long as one of the attackers doesn't do it slower, both cases can be seen here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Msy7KXb-oCU)

I actually had this situation in a match once: Bridge of Eldin: Toon Link on the left, Zelda in the center, me (Lucas) between them. Zelda shoot's Din's Fire while Toon Link jumps at me, I'm in the air too. I activate PSI magnet, Din's Fire hits behind me, I turn around to absorb it and hit Toon Link with the Magnet. Pretty awesome.

In other news, in a Lucas/Ness ditto or a Lucas vs. Ness fight, absorbing a PK Thunder with the PSI Magnet is the most hilarious way to edgeguard ever.

 

[Aevin]

Well I once saw this video where Lucas in the air over the ledge and his opponent, I don't know who it was but I think it was a Ness player, fired an energy projectile (yes, I am sure it was energy based not physical like a pikmin or samus missile) at him while he had his PK magnet out. But his PK magnet was facing the wrong way. Mind you, Lucas was in the air when he had his PK magnet out and it was facing the opposite way of the projectile. Lucas actually got hit by the projectile and he didn't absorb it.

Why is it that no one believes me?

I've done the tests. Lucas absorbs from every angle, be it on ground or in air. When he's hit from behind in the air, he still turns around in mid-air and absorbs it. I've seen the video you're referring to, and the Lucas player dropped the magnet at the last moment.

EDIT: Sorry, Serpit. Didn't see your post.

As for Ness and Lucas being compared to each other ... I don't see it as a problem. Mainly because I don't believe either of them beats the other hands down in terms of ability. Each is better for certain things. Actually, I think the characters are so different that comparing them too closely doesn't make sense. Comparing the psi magnets and concluding Lucas is a better character is like saying Bowser is better than Charizard because his fire breath is more useful. (I know little about those two characters, so please don't bother correcting this likely inaccurate example.)

With that said, I think this thread serves the purpose of informing those who love the characters and the mother series, so they can choose whichever one matches their preferred play style.

 

[Ademisk]

And I think its a place for Ness players to rip on Lucas players. Difference of opinion.

 

[Aevin]

And according to reports, Ness's overall range is better. For example, getting under Lucas and firing a PK Thunder is a sure hit. I tried it, it worked. PSI Magnet was out.

But I've been hit from below with Pitt's arrows numerous times, and absorb them all the time.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you absorb with Lucas when he's centered in the middle of Pikachu's thunder pillar? If he were vulnerable from the bottom, shouldn't that hit him?

To be honest, I would love to see some redeeming quality in Ness's absorbtion that puts his PK Magnet on par with Lucas's, but so far I don't think there is anything.

BTW, I had a blast playing a Ness/Lucas team the other day. Ness stood in back, Lucas stood in front, and Ness began refilling my damage using PK Flash. Opponents caught on quickly and came to try to hit me out of it, and ... ZAP! I sent them flying with PK Magnet, then absorbed some more before they got back. It was also fun refilling Ness's HP with PK Freeze. Couldn't do it as safely, but it was much faster.

I also love jumping forward at projectile-spamming opponents and activating PK Magnet in mid-air, absorbing the projectiles as I move forward and then hitting them with the deactivation. Very, very fun. And Lucas's close range fighting is a zap, zap, ZAP! Kind of affair. Uses electric-like psychic energy for everything, and it feels so quick and precise. I love it. (I'm talking mostly about his quick tilts, btw. His smash attacks are another matter.)

Ademisk - I originally posted this thread in the Ness boards because I thought Ness wasn't getting enough attention compared to Lucas. Would you prefer the thread to be in the Lucas boards? I could ask a mod to move it, if you like.

 

[Ademisk]

Do what you gotta do. I won't post there though. I don't play Lucas. You'll definitely get more agreement there, though.

Either way, I'll say it again. Ness destroys Lucas in actual battle. I know most people don't care, and are considering overall matchup, I'm just throwing it out there.

 

[Aevin]

I beg to differ.

Ness could indeed give Lucas some problems.

If he could get near him. Lucas easily outranges Ness, and his moves are set up to keep people at a distance. the fact that Ness has PSI Magnet makes him a trickier opponent than most for Lucas. Ness outdoes him in the air, certainly, (he outdoes practically everybody in the air, truth be told). But Lucas has a lot going for him, including VERY powerful killing moves, two workable spikes, a faster neutral B (which isn't nearly as impossible to land as some people say), a superior PSI Magnet, a far superior recovery, much better speed on the ground, and a better ranged game.

Stuff like Lucas's multi-hit neutral aerial, which has no lag afterwards, directly into a forward tilt (which comes out insanely fast and sends you flying), followed by a PK Fire. It's a quick, easy combo which sends opponents to the other side of the stage, almost completely regardless of damage. Much as I love Ness, I'm sure he couldn't combo from there.

Having played both characters for many hours (almost equally divided between them), I believe they're evenly matched.

 

[Ademisk]

All you have to do is outspace Lucas on the ground, and he's practically ground Lucas meat. I dunno, I like the matchup. Anyway, I think this discussion is stupid, so I'm not even being serious. No offense, I just don't like comparing two completely different characters after having played them a total of 30 hours.

 

[Smashbros_7]

I beg to differ.

Ness could indeed give Lucas some problems.

If he could get near him. Lucas easily outranges Ness, and his moves are set up to keep people at a distance. the fact that Ness has PSI Magnet makes him a trickier opponent than most for Lucas. Ness outdoes him in the air, certainly, (he outdoes practically everybody in the air, truth be told). But Lucas has a lot going for him, including VERY powerful killing moves, two workable spikes, a faster neutral B (which isn't nearly as impossible to land as some people say), a superior PSI Magnet, a far superior recovery, much better speed on the ground, and a better ranged game.

Stuff like Lucas's multi-hit neutral aerial, which has no lag afterwards, directly into a forward tilt (which comes out insanely fast and sends you flying), followed by a PK Fire. It's a quick, easy combo which sends opponents to the other side of the stage, almost completely regardless of damage. Much as I love Ness, I'm sure he couldn't combo from there.

Having played both characters for many hours (almost equally divided between them), I believe they're evenly matched.

Seriously Sakurai, WHY GIVE LUCAS A SUPERIOR VB??? Every similar character always had the same move with a weakness. Captain Pucn vs Warlock punch e.t.c. But now the boundaries have changed.

 

[Kiki52]

I think that Sakurai did give a way for Ness to beat Lucas. Through his superior use of A moves which mostly are fast and prioritastic.

As for Aevin's comment, I can say that while Lucas can do many of these things, Ness is better generally in the A move department as a whole because Ness' A moves seem to be faster and more comboable in general for most combat situations. There may be times when Lucas could be at an advantage like to use upsmash when Ness is falling towards Lucas, but a good Ness player would know that and avoid that situation. Ness' A moves have more flexibility as they work great against other characters in more types of situations, while for Lucas you really have to think about how to attack most of the time.

If a Ness player masters his A moves, he'll be at an advantage to beat Lucas so long as he spaces himself so as not to get in range of his high range moves. However, if the Ness players rely a lot on direct B moves (like PK Fire, PK Thunder 2 is the exception) then expect the Ness player to be totally destroyed by Lucas (due to PK magnet). But as far as the A game goes, I think Ness has it better against not just Lucas but non-Lucas characters as well, if proper spacing is done to punish longer range a move attackers.

I think we need to think more about not Ness vs Lucas, but how Ness and Lucas do against opponents who are NOT Ness or Lucas.

Like let's say for example, who is better at fighting against a Marth or an Olimar player. Ness or Lucas.

I think Sakurai gave Ness PK magnet more range than Lucas. That means, if like a din's fire flew over Ness' head while his PK magnet was on, he'd absorb it from further away than Lucas could.

We also have to take into consideration biases on Sakurai's part. Maybe he just likes Lucas better than Ness, but if he does, he did a really good job of trying to not let his personal biases impact the game. It's not like he someone made overpowered, but even people like Sakurai are imperfect and maybe he likes some characters over others so he chooses them to be a notch or two ahead of everyone else because of them being his personal favorite.

 

[Aevin]

Well said, Kiki. I wanted to clarify ... I wasn't saying Lucas would beat Ness hands down. In previous posts I've talked a lot about Ness's advantages (such as those you've mentioned above). I just take offense at the implication that Ness is "obviously" superior to Lucas.

However, pitting the characters against each other was not what I intended in starting this thread, but comparing them and, as you said, seeing who works best against different characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I would say most people seem to be saying Lucas was superior to Ness, but from my experience I found it to be the other way around.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Well said, Kiki. I wanted to clarify ... I wasn't saying Lucas would beat Ness hands down. In previous posts I've talked a lot about Ness's advantages (such as those you've mentioned above). I just take offense at the implication that Ness is "obviously" superior to Lucas.

However, pitting the characters against each other was not what I intended in starting this thread, but comparing them and, as you said, seeing who works best against different characters.

What does this have to do with Ness worse VB Man Im pissed. Lucas needs a worse VB! He uses one hand and faces one direction (heals from any side regardless) WHY SAKURAI!

 

[Ademisk]

Wtf is VB? I know you're talking about PSI Magnet, and, hey, get this, SOME CHARACTERS HAVE WORSE MOVES THAN OTHERS!! Any Aevin, seriously, this topic is pointless. Might as well make a topic like Rob VS Ness or Wolf Vs Ness. If you're not going to compare how two characters do against eachother, then you shouldn't be comparing them, they may look alike, but they're completely different characters and need to start being treated as such.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Wtf is VB? I know you're talking about PSI Magnet, and, hey, get this, SOME CHARACTERS HAVE WORSE MOVES THAN OTHERS!! Any Aevin, seriously, this topic is pointless. Might as well make a topic like Rob VS Ness or Wolf Vs Ness. If you're not going to compare how two characters do against eachother, then you shouldn't be comparing them, they may look alike, but they're completely different characters and need to start being treated as such.

Man your NEVER happy. Be more like Simna, he's more jolly happy go lucky. Im pissed off to, but your theory is wrong. Every clone has a worse move yes, but they have different properties. Luigi vs Mario,
Captain Falcon vs Ganondorf.

but Ness Vs Lucas is always going to end with
Lucas>Ness Im sorry but thats true.

 

[NessOnett]

but Ness Vs Lucas is always going to end with
Lucas>Ness Im sorry but thats true.

*flame, flame, flame*

Oh no you didn't. I will personally accept challenges from all Lucas mains, and I defy any of you to even kill me let alone beat me. I'm sure I'm not the only Ness main willing to take up arms for the cause either, war is bound to happen soon enough. Ness will always be superior to Lucas in strength, skill, and overall coolness.

 

[Tmnt1837]

In playing with ness and lucas, they feel like two completely different characters and can't really be call clones. Ness seems like he might be one of the best comboers in the game. His aerials are all amazing and his fair leads right into his triple a on the ground or into a ftilt or dtilt. Also his running upsmash combos nicely. But his dash attack does the same thing just as well.

Lucas on the other although he has some good aerials they don't link as well as ness' do. And i don't care what anyone says about grab range i like ness' throws better. They come out faster and if you miss you aren't ****ed like you are with lucas'. But Lucas' smash attacks are heads and bounds above ness'. Although ness' bat is a little bigger and hits harder it has to much lag in the start up while lucas stick comes out fast and still hits hard. Lucas' upsmash is amazing and works well after a dash attack to a running upsmash. His down smash also is powerful and having hidden hitboxes behind him makes people rolling look silly.

So which character is better. I really can't tell yet. Lucas' smashes give you the chance to knock off characters before 100% all of them are pretty easy to land too. But ness can combo people up very easily but i have been having problems knocking people off. I find my best ko move is his bair or his bat. But his bat comes out to slow and gives people a chance to roll,dodge or jab. His bair is really your best bet. Also mindgames with his PKT2 is also a good knockoff with reverse edge guarding.

Anyway i still don't get why they didn't make PKT able to cancel out of like snakes missiles. that really pisses me off.

 

[Ademisk]

Man your NEVER happy. Be more like Simna, he's more jolly happy go lucky. Im pissed off to, but your theory is wrong. Every clone has a worse move yes, but they have different properties. Luigi vs Mario,
Captain Falcon vs Ganondorf.

but Ness Vs Lucas is always going to end with
Lucas>Ness Im sorry but thats true.

Exactly, Luigi's B in Melee was worse in every single way. You've entirely proved my point.


Also, you're annoying.

 

[BentoBox]

This topic is why I suggest all Ness players go to war with Lucas players. They will never stop being compared to eachother, so they can never be friends.

Spoiler

sadface4life

 

[thesage]

Ganon's B was inferior to C. Falcon's B. Zelda had a better down b than Sheik. Pikachu's up-smash > Pichu's upsmash in almost every single way. Fox's Up-smash > Falco's up-smash. Bowser had one of the better up-b's in the game. Are you saying that since Bowser has a good up-b, he is better than all the other characters who have worse up-b's than him?

Besides, down b isn't that important. Just be glad it's usable (unlike melee).