Ness vs Lucas

[Aevin]

Can someone tell us about Ness' recovery in general? Is it worse or better than Lucas?
Lucas has a tether recovery, but infortunately I heard that because of edge hogging, it totally destroys characters who rely on tether recovery like Capt Olimar, but Lucas less so because he can do a PK Lightning recovery.
Does Ness have a good recovery you say? Because it's harder to have Ness hit himself with his PK lightning, I hope they balanaced it by giving Ness like two jumps instead of one or something.

First of all, Lucas clearly has the better recovery. It goes farther, and he has his rope snake to help, too. Ness makes up for this in other ways, however--his second jump is larger, for starters.

As to the aiming, I'm pretty sure the two aim exactly the same in most cases. I've played them quite a lot, so if I'm compensating for differences in aiming, it's a subconscious thing. Oh, and as far as aiming from Melee to Brawl, it came very naturally. You learn the motion in no time flat (I managed to aim pretty much as I wanted to from the start with Lucas, and it took just a tiny bit longer with Ness).

Ness's is wide but fast, Lucas's is slow but narrow. All in all, if you aim the same, they get to the same point at the same time for most angles. Think of a turntable or record with two points on it in line with each other. Both of these points would rotate around one complete circle in the same amount of time, but the inner point travels slower because it has a smaller radius and travels less distance. The inner point is the path Lucas's PK Thunder takes, whereas the outer point is Ness. Get it? Ness has a bigger radius but more speed, Lucas has a smaller radius but is slower, but they rotate in the same way and reach the same point (the characters's rears) at the same time. Of course, this is going to be a little bit off in some cases--most notably the downward angles.

Oh, and as to the PK Flash test, I'll do it next time I play. Unfortunately, at this point that's probably not gonna be until Saturday. EDIT: Oh, you mean you want to see if Ness can be interrupted? Yes, he can. There's a slight delay, so probably Ness was hit after he detonated the move but before the explosion came.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: Never mind.

 

[EToaster]

The ropesnake also gives Lucas the advantage in narrow holes (ala Melee Fourside), where Ness simply can't use PK Thunder.

 

[DeeDoubleU]

Thats kind of a moot point though since so few stages are like that in SSBB...

 

[marthownsxd]

It was great for opening Smash Balls (yes I know they won't be on in tournaments but that isn't the only way I play)

As in great for opening Smash Balls do you mean 1 hit to open? I am curious, for such a slow move and with the Smash Ball constantly moving wouldn't it be hard to aim?

 

[DeeDoubleU]

Nah. I doubt it would be too hard to aim, at least for any experienced Ness player. They move rather slowly.

 

[Kiki52]

Another thing I am concerned about is the A moves. A video I saw Ness only does 9% damage when he fully completes his AAA moves, while Lucas does 10% after doing his AAA moves. How exactly is Ness more comboable then?

 

[Ademisk]

....since when have combos relied on a single % difference regarding ONE part of the combo. Ness's AAA combos into his attacks better than Lucas.

 

[Tmnt1837]

ness' lead him into better combos. His fair is great fro comboing and his back air is god for finishing while his up air has great has great priority. One thing that made ness better was giving the yoyo's more knock back. Ness players have nice mind games which is one thing i like about him. His great strength in his back air and his down smash yoyo going backwards first can confuse people when you keep lining up on them backwards.

 

[Aevin]

The backwards yoyo's one of my favorite surprises. They think you're at a disadvantage because you're facing away on the ground, and then that baby comes out faster than a baseball bat ... Gotta love it.

I like it so well, I keep trying to do it with Lucas ...

 

[Aevin]

Stupid posting thing. *PK Flashes*

 

[Smashbros_7]

Do the PK Flask test!

 

[Aevin]

I told you. Ness detonated the PK Flash before he was hit, but there's a brief pause before the explosion, so it caught sonic after he was able to hit Ness.

 

[Serpit]

I don't know why people are saying Lucas is bad at comboing. I have nothing against Ness, from my experience Lucas seems overall better. The comparison isn't really necessary though, as the only thing that really connects them are their B moves, and the A moveset is very different.

My input though:

PK Fire: Hard to say, Ness' PK Fire is a setup, but IMO the diagonal angle in the air sucks. For Lucas, PK Fire serves as a good mid-range move when shorthopped.

PK Flash/Freeze: TBH I think neither of them will be used a lot in competitive play, even PK Freeze which is faster is still too slow to really hit good opponents.

PSI Magnet: From what I know Lucas takes this hands down. His Magnet does damage, is very fast, absorbs 2 times the damage of the attack and also covers both sides. I don't know if Ness has any special effec,t but it better be good to compete with that =)

PK Thunder: Here's where it gets iffy: Lucas PKT2 covery more distance and is easier to control. Ness' is faster, and his PKT2 is one strong hit as opposed to Lucas' multiple hits. Damagewise a PKT2 seems about the same (I think~27% for Lucas if he hits bulls-eye), but Ness' PKT2 has more knockback. However, despite the huge tailwhip that Ness' PKT has, Lucas does more damage. I had people takign 20-30% of damaging by simply passing through them with PKT, hitting them multiple times. It's hard to say here, but I prefer Lucas' version.


Grabwise, Lucas has a better grab, but Ness has better throws. I know Ness has more KO power with his throws, but Lucas can KO quite well with them at 120+ %, which actually puts him above most of the cast. He can combo off his downthrow at lower percents. Overall I think Ness takes this, but do not underestimate the Rope Snake =P

Smashes are very different actually. The only really comaprable ones are the Stick and the Bat, and hands down I prefer the stick. The bat has more range and more damage, but the stick comes out a lot faster, and on top of that, seems to have more knockback.

The other 2 smashes are extremely different and I haven't got that much experience with Ness, but there's a lot more to Lucas' smashes than it seems: D-Smash hits three times (At lower percents, the first 2 hits can actually connect on the same enemy for ~30%), it has a very deceptive hitbox that hits behind Lucas as well and it's probably the Downsmash that hits below your character the most, so great at ledges. The downside? It covers both sides, but the back only slightly, and it's slow.

The U-Smash shouldn't be spammed. It's slow and laggy, but with huge range and has more power than anything Ness can offer XD The perfect punisher and nice in some mindgames, but again, really hard to compare to the Yoyo. the good thing about both Lucas' D-Smash and U-Smash is that they can't really be spotdodged/airdodged since they stay out for too long.

The aerials are very different too. Lucas' fair has lower range, but is lightning fast and good for combos at lower percents, the Bair has huge range, a sexy spike and the weak hitbox can combo even at higher percents. Up-Air looks a lot like Ness' though, good damage (~12%) and huge hitbox. Dair can do up to 21% damage if all 3 kicks hit, is a weak spike and sets up for other attacks. You can either shorthop Dair for full damage and launcher or fulljump Dair through the enemy and greet him with an F-Smash at the ground. Nair has virtually no lag when you hit the ground and can be directly linked to anything else, so it leads tu U-Tilt juggled at lwoer percents and actual Smashes at higher ones.

Tilts honestly go to Lucas. U-Tilt can juggle very nice, is fast, great range and KOs @ ~150%. F-Tilt is super-fast, good range, damage and wonderful for spacing, D-Tilt is about as spammable as Ness', does good damage and makes people trip.


Okay, now I'm sorry that I mostly wrote about Lucas, but I've played him a lot more, but I did play with Ness quite a bit as well. I hope I don't sound biased, this is honest opinion. I just don't like it that people try to argue that Lucas can't combo or that his Thunder sucks or something.

 

[BentoBox]

Forgot to mention that Lucas' PK Thunda is harder to intercept :o

and lucas has the shine.

edit: and a snake for some good loving late at nite

 

[Aevin]

I don't think he can't combo, I just think Ness is better at it. Lucas's attacks send people too far away, and I feel like he's more geared toward damaging at a distance. This is not a bad thing, and I think both characters are roughly equal. I just think Ness is better for quick strings of attacks and has better close combat. I also think Ness's killing moves are easy to place, (although several of Lucas's are much more powerful).

On PK Fire ... I think Ness's downward angle is fantastic! No one seems to expect it. If you're good at aiming with it, you can torture enemies on slopes--short hopping and shooting PK fire down parralel with the slope makes it extremely hard to evade for pursuing opponents. This angle is also great for ledgeguarding when opponents are trying to come back from below the ledge.

As for the PK Thunder ... I like both of them, but I think I prefer Lucas's. It goes farther, and something about the feeling of hitting the enemy so many times and sending them flying is just awesome!

 

[Levitas]

Maybe it's just preference, but I like Ness's PKT a lot more at this point. When I get the chance to play more, (and more than one game at a time), I may change my mind.

Lucas is a GTFO character, and that makes him really good at camping. Ness is a very solid character and leads weak hits to strong hits very easily.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ness is safer and sturdier. Lucas has higher risks with greater rewards.

Oh, and Ness's yo-yos are the best they've ever been. Faster than SSB64, and stronger than Melee. These are good times for Ness.

Personally, I think Lucas will get more play in tourneys since he has more ability against sword users, but Ness seems better for taking on space animals.

 

[Aevin]

Personally, I think Lucas will get more play in tourneys since he has more ability against sword users, but Ness seems better for taking on space animals.

Agreed, but you should have seen what I did to Ike the other day.

Ness's odd jumps are extremely good for a kind of dancing evasion around sword users or other long-ranged characters. Keep dodging until they make a mistake, and pounce. Ness always feels ready to attack these characters quickly and exploit their errors--be it on ground or in air.

Oh ... And I love the yoyos in this one.

I'm finding playing Lucas to be a bit awkward at the moment, but that could just be because I'm not as familiar with his moves. Seems like when I want to win badly enough, I switch to Ness. I definitely don't think Lucas is innately superior.

 

[Smashbros_7]

What tier do you think Ness and Lucas are now. Ness was bottom in Melee.

 

[Mac_77]

Why the hell is tier so important right now? That's all I hear out of people now...

Just play the character you like and don't suck at it, that's all that really matters. It's always been like that, even in Melee...

 

[BentoBox]

The game just got out. Stop caring about tiers.

 

[BZZL]

As far as tiers go, Ness was amazing in Melee regardless of tier lists. Not enough people played him well so he got low tier. *gasp*

Anyway, I got to play a bit of Brawl when someone brought it to a melee tourney that I attended. I didn't get a lot of play time in as Lucas, but one thing between the two that needs to be said is PK Thunder 2.
Ness's two biggest fears when recovering with that move were either getting hit or even worse, having someone like Puff eat his thunder before he could use it as a recovery.

Lucas' thunder cannot be eaten.
As far as controlling the two PKT's, Lucas' either moves slightly slower or turns slightly faster than Ness'. You can tell this if you try and turn the tightest PKT2 circle possible - Lucas will shoot at a much higher angle than Ness because it makes a smaller circle and catches him before he drops as far down.

Someone commented about not liking Ness' PK Fire angle in the air.
This is one of the best mindgame moves to catch your opponent off guard, especially as a retreating move. Jump away shooting PKF behind you at your chasing opponent and you can catch him very easily. Works well short-hopped or full-hopped.
Can also be done to attack unexpectedly out of jumping around like an idiot waiting for an opening :D

 

[Levitas]

^^^ what they said except for bzzzl, he's just wrong. Ness had issues that really warranted a bottom tier position. In the end, it doesn't even matter... *breaks into song*

Also, Lucas's PKT can be eaten by outprioritizing it with almost any attack. If someone's next to you, you're still really vulnerable, no matter if you're ness or lucas.

 

[BZZL]

By eating thunder I meant taking the hit with your body to cancel it out. But as far as I know, Lucas' PKT passes through other players, correct?

You'll never convince me Ness deserved that tier placement in brawl, I've been a hardcore Ness main since I started playing competitively. (and finally it pays off as I'm having a smooth transition into brawl) So no point in arguing over that I guess.

 

[Levitas]

Although it seems to be a moot point, I can still assure you, Ness had issues in melee. I would know, I used him in several tourneys. And it's not that he deserved that placement, it's that he has that placement. On the plus side, it's nice to have a decent transition to brawl. Me too, although recovery with PKT is a problem if I can't see myself due to the changes to the PKT.

And yes, Lucas's passes through them granted that they're not attacking. But if you think about it, all an opponent neeeds to do differently to kill Lucas's recovery is press one more button.

 

[Rhubarbo]

One character will be better. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Ademisk]

Ness wasn't great in Melee. He got comboed too easily and was too hard to combo with. His moves are good, but those two things just....destroy him.

 

[Deleted member]

One character will be better. We'll have to wait and see.

I think they're just for different play styles. They seem very different to me and I'm going to play Ness because I like his character and I like the way he feels.

 

[DJ Tempora]

By eating thunder I meant taking the hit with your body to cancel it out. But as far as I know, Lucas' PKT passes through other players, correct?

Nope, not always. It can be eaten.

 

[Serpit]

Nope, not always. It can be eaten.

It can be canceled by hitting it with certain attacks that have higher priority, but it won't be eaten if it just hits someone.

 

[Levitas]

Lol, it can actually be eaten by wario. That's one of his attacks.

The other thing is that most moves have higher priority than PK thunder, so it's really not hard to do. I've found the best defense against this is to be far away from the edge.

 

[BZZL]

Lol, it can actually be eaten by wario. That's one of his attacks.

The other thing is that most moves have higher priority than PK thunder, so it's really not hard to do. I've found the best defense against this is to be far away from the edge.

I bow to you, Wario can indeed eat thunder XD

The best "defense" when you're forced to use his up+b recovery is to vary it, in my experience. Shoot from down low, shoot from high up (aim down and sweetspot or hit the edgeguarder), shoot from further away then anyone thought was possible, etc.

But the ultimate recovery tip for ness, I'm sure we'll all agree, is just don't get hit off the stage in the first place.


And whoever said Ness couldn't combo in Melee... I dunno what you've been doing when you play him. o.O

 

[Levitas]

Bzzl, that was ademisk, one of like 5 people (including myself) that were in the Ness melee boards when.

He knows what he's talking about. Comboing = hitting someone, then hitting again when they're still in stun. Good combos can't be DI'd out of. Ness doesn't have many, and most are short ones. His best combo is Uair juggling on spacies into a back air. Other than that, his combo game's really limited.

 

[BZZL]

Haha, I'm obviously getting 'making an *** out of myself' taken care of before Brawl is actually released. XD

Now that I understand what he meant, I suppose other than Fair juggling lighter characters... yeah. Someday I'll get this right instead of blindly rushing in to defend my main.

 

[Levitas]

Hey, no sweat. Just be sure to do some research (or have a good idea what you're talking about) before making bold claims. Everyone's wrong sometimes... except for some people... um... yeah.

That said, I'm still not sure whether I like Lucas's PKT (and PKT2) or Ness's better. I'll decide sometime, I suppose.

 

[Ademisk]

Yeah, unfortunately, there's a difference between comboing and doing consecutive hits to someone. Brawl is FULL of the second, and almost completely denied the first. I think Ness is probably one of the best comboers in the game at this point, but for the most part, comboing doesn't really exist. It's more mindgames, following DI, tech chasing, and tricking your opponent into falling for something. In that way its KINDA more n00b friendly because they'll always be unpredictable and hard to guess, while people who play the game regularly tend to fall into patterns, regardless of how unpredictable they try to make their play. But, I think that better players will always have the advantage of spacing, timing, and an overall better idea of how to use their moves to the fullest advantage.

 

[Aevin]

If you compare just the moves, you can only draw the conclusion that Lucas's are better.

However, Ness isn't about individual moves, but his moveset as a whole.

I thought I'd mention that I ran a test on the two characters' PK Magnets, and it really does appear that Lucas's is superior in every way. I don't believe Ness's has an advantage as far as what it absorbs (I tested this on Ice Climbers' ice blocks, which, sadly, can not be absorbed by either character). Lucas's not only has the same field of effect (it does work from the back), but it comes out faster and can be used as a pretty nice attack. They both heal the same percentages. Lucas's PK Magnet beats Ness's hands down.

Same goes for PK Thunder. Lucas's is WAY more useful. It bounces your opponents around helplessly, and does not disappear like Ness's does so you can hit them multiple times. Like many of Lucas's moves, this is a GTFO kind of attack, sending opponents far away if you can score more than one hit (which you usually can). As mentioned before, Lucas's PK Missile goes further, and he has a rope snake for recovery, making his overall recovery better.

So, if Lucas has the better recovery, the better PK thunder and PK Magnet, what exactly does Ness have?

The answer is ... Quite a lot. His ease in approaching enemies and chaining attacks together ... Lucas can only dream of. In my opinion, this more than makes up for Lucas's advantages. Very quick aerials (several of which can be used as KO moves) with barely any lag afterwards and just enough knockback to keep opponents in range for the next. When fighting with Ness, I feel like I can easily use his forward aerial or dash attack to attack enemies with relatively low chance of retaliation. If I hit, I can press the attack without fear. Ness's throws--while they don't have quite the reach of Lucas's rope snake--are quick, have great range and are far more powerful than Lucas's. No more flailing helplessly if you grab while running. For those familiar with jump-canceling Ness's throws in melee, it's like you jump cancel them automatically ... plus a little.

With Lucas, on the other hand, I have to carefully approach opponents using my quickest moves (usually my neutral aerial or my forward tilt) and watch carefully for openings to land smash attacks. In all of this, I have this feeling that if I miss, I'm gonna be punished. Yes, his up smash is powerful, but if you miss with it ... you're toast. The only smash I feel I can use without getting bashed if I miss is his stick, which is lacking in range. His killing moves are all tricky and dangerous to use.

I still believe the two are on equal ground. I can win just as often with both, but I feel more balanced with Ness, and less like I have to carefully play to his strengths to avoid utter, humiliating defeat.

EDIT: I also wanted to mention ... People stealing recovery by out prioritizing the PK Thunder is rarely a problem for Lucas. The projectile is so close to his body that it's really hard for people to hit the thunder but not the boy, (thereby allowing him to use PK Thunder again). Ness is not so fortunate. They can pretty much steal your recovery exactly like they could in Melee, except that the thunder moves faster.

 

[Ademisk]

That's pretty good analysis. There's more to it than that, but it's pretty close.

 

[Aevin]

Thanks. There's always more to it ... I'm being fairly general.