Ness vs. High Tiers discussion/Character Matchups

[thesage]

I though his older brother played falcon...

 

[Ademisk]

Just saying, spaming nairs into a grab which equals **** makes me think of Marth.

 

[Wave⁂]

Hmmm... Fox maybe?

 

[Levitas]

lol, as long as we're guessing, I'll give it a shot:

Hmm... in addition to the afore mentioned fox marth and captain falcon, it seems like a few others could pull off a nair to grab. Could be falco, but what would a falco do out of a grab? Falco combos too well to just grab out of a nair. Sheik isn't manuverable enough in the air to use a nair to approach, and although a ground floated nair is really good, I think the ground float would have been mentioned directly. That takes care of all the high/top tiers. Since ground floating would have been mentioned, I think it's safe to say that DJC would have been mentioned as well, given that this is the Ness boards. DJC characters are out. Of the others, I've seen Anther's Pikachu do the nair to grab before. Pikachu and pichu are definate possibilities. Link, young link, and samus have good nairs, but the grab is just too slow to pull it off. Usually for them it's grab to nair. There's always mario, Doc, and luigi, though.

 

[toasty]

hah, I think it's funny...the simple fact that GP didn't iterate who his brother uses [though I think thesage was correct about Captain Falcon...that and his description of the rapetastic turn of events that would unfold sounds like so many of my nightmares of playing against good CF players] got people thinking more about what other characters can do to Ness and just what they can do in general, which is excellent; it's exactly the kind of thing you SHOULD think about.

Ness's downfall [all skill/metagame aside] is hardly his ability to get the job done but how relatively easy it is to do him in, so I say we should focus less on what you can do to certain characters and more on what they can and will do to you.

Discuss.

 

[thesage]

hah, I think it's funny...the simple fact that GP didn't iterate who his brother uses [though I think thesage was correct about Captain Falcon...that and his description of the rapetastic turn of events that would unfold sounds like so many of my nightmares of playing against good CF players] got people thinking more about what other characters can do to Ness and just what they can do in general, which is excellent; it's exactly the kind of thing you SHOULD think about.

Ness's downfall [all skill/metagame aside] is hardly his ability to get the job done but how relatively easy it is to do him in, so I say we should focus less on what you can do to certain characters and more on what they can and will do to you.

Discuss.

That and the fact he has a pitiful cc'ing game. No his d-tilt or bat doesn't cut it.

 

[GildedPunch]

WOW.
I thought I was just gonna comment and then move on.
But now you guys are analyzing everything possible about characters who can nair to a grab on ness.


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My bro plays Captain Falcon btw.

 

[Levitas]

Nope, that was just me. And yeah, the esteemed captain can be a hassle.

 

[GildedPunch]

ness is so floaty.

if a nair hits, it's an instant grab at low percentages,
and a knee at higher percentages.

 

[Deleted member]

That and the fact he has a pitiful cc'ing game. No his d-tilt or bat doesn't cut it.

crouch grab is amazing.

 

[thesage]

crouch grab is amazing.

Never thought of that... hmmmm....

 

[Ademisk]

Mow is a fountain of inspiration.

 

[GildedPunch]

what the hell is a crouch grab?
Yeah I already tried the search tab.

 

[toasty]

crouch grab is amazing.

man...what you've said about Vs. Sheik has helped me sooo much. especially the basic concept of "never" attacking first. Who else is crouch grab a good tactic against?

edit: GP, he just means crouch-canceling and then grabbing

 

[Wave⁂]

Hmm... potentially useful, but with his pitiful grab range... you'll need to get pretty close to your opponent.

EDIT: CCWDGrab?

 

[Levitas]

The whole idea with cc is that you don't go anywhere. That's the whole idea: if they get the wrong kind of hit on you, just cc it, grab them, and get your combo off.

 

[Ademisk]

So, unless they're a fastfaller, Ness's CC has no COMBO

 

[Levitas]

It has a minimum of 13 damage due to the grab, and certainly can lead into other hits, regardless of whether it's a combo, a tech chase, or DI chasing.

 

[Ademisk]

Yeah. Still could be better though.

 

[GildedPunch]

too bad.

It won't be.

You're stuck with low-tier

 

[thesage]

Ness' grab combos other people too.... sometimes...

Edit: How do you do the djc wavelanding. I can only do it accidentally, and I do it accidentally all the time, but nevar on purpose... >.<

 

[Ademisk]

Just....airdodge when you're almost on the ground. Practice on platforms, make sure your back is to the edge of the platform, wavedash off, DjC back on, and waveland off it, repeat.

 

[thesage]

Just want to let you guys know that you have to jc a cc grab.

 

[Ademisk]

......what? You have to jump cancel a crouch cancelled grab? Clarify?

 

[thesage]

When you're holding down the control stick and press Z you will do a d-tilt (weird I know). In order to not do a d-tilt after you've been hit while crouch canceling you must jc the grab.

Basically crouch, jc grab. You can still cc grab whie running though (I guess cause you can't do d-tilt???). It's a really interesting aspect of smash...

 

[Ademisk]

I'd actually need to test a few things to testify against that.......Take that!

 

[Levitas]

There's a difference between crouch cancelling and dash cancelling, despite the similarity in user input. I'm thinking the reason that it would work that way is that crouch cancelling has a type of "lag" that traps you in a crouching position, whereas in dash-cancelling, you are free to stand as soon as you crouch. If that's true, then it makes sense that you need to JC grab after a CC, but not after a dash cancel.

 

[thabettaplaya]

Ness Counters high tiers!!!........end of discussion.

 

[GildedPunch]

why don't you just shield grab really fast after cc?

 

[thabettaplaya]

it's the same thing. It doesn't really matter. whatever you prefer.

 

[thesage]

why don't you just shield grab really fast after cc?

Lolz, I forgot about that. I'm practicing Fox right now so everything is jc'ed...

 

[Levitas]

lol, I find JC'd grabs to be easier anyway.

 

[Ademisk]

Ness's shield grab is pathetic anyway.

 

[GildedPunch]

ness's grab IS pathetic either way.

 

[Ademisk]

This is true. But his throws...*drool*.

 

[kenny10]

Strongest bthrow in the game WOOHOO! Shame his range sucks. Now if if it had Marth's range...

 

[Ademisk]

Strongest horizontal throw in the game. Get it right.

 

[Wave⁂]

But if you do CC an attack, you can still be pushed back a little if the attack is strong enough and if you have enough damage.

 

[Ademisk]

That's why it was specified that CCing works when someone uses 'the wrong attack'

 

[Wave⁂]

Yeah, so CCWD Grab can still be useful if you manage to CC "the right attack" if it isn't too overly powerful.

CC a fully charged Flare Blade FTLose.