Ness vs Dk matchup.

[PKNintendo]

Anyway, I need info for this matchup.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116

I made sure to go over this specs on this matchup.

DK can grab release Downsmash you. He cannot CG you. CBK, I would like your assistance, but stop being addicted to it.

Im pretty sure Ook has a video of the grab release downsmash somewhere...

Okay, before we start. GRAB RELEASE DOWNSMASH DOESN'T MEAN AUTO WIN!
Ness has plenty of grab release smash attacks, and he does fine in those matchups. (outside of Marth of course) If I don't want to get grabbed (as Ness) I won't.

*Im not sure if Ness can escape it with the EIDI, since the residence is playing wii music for a week.

To the matchup. It's pretty straight forward. DK outranges Ness on the ground, so Ness must play defensive against the beast. If Ness uses PKF at 0%, DK wil be stuck in the PKF (heavy) for a while, and that will lead to an almost guaranteeded Fsmash. It doesn't work at higher percentages. In the air, I think Ness wins. His aerials combo DK to death, (watch out for his bair) If DK grabs you, SGB immediately to escape the grab. If you did it right, you should get out instantly. But if you screw up, DK will cargo you, turnaround and use the downsmash.

DK can KO you early, thats a fact, his Up and Forward smash have the power to KO you at around 60%.

*Just so you know, Ness is not light.

Ness' dair is useful here, since DK is heavy, and getting most kills will take awhile. Another way to

*On a side not, if you DI TOWARDS DK out of the grab release, the downsmash will hit with the sourspot and it will have less KO power.

All an all I say 55-45.

 

[KoSa!]

I justed played this matchup. And the only thing Ness has on DK is the ability to punish DK's recovery. You can stall and maybe fake the Ness player out, but if Ness calls the bluff and counters with a sideB or pretty much any B attack, DK can lose the stock easily. With that being said DK still has the advantage over Ness, he can just as easily gimp Ness when Ness uses his upB. Spaced tilts own Ness, and a standing upB works wonders IMO. Also Ness dies fairly quickly to a Giant Punch or and of DK smashes.

60-40 DK. This is judging off of my experience when I fight my friends Ness

 

[PKNintendo]

I justed played this matchup. And the only thing Ness has on DK is the ability to punish DK's recovery. You can stall and maybe fake the Ness player out, but if Ness calls the bluff and counters with a sideB or pretty much any B attack, DK can lose the stock easily. With that being said DK still has the advantage over Ness, he can just as easily gimp Ness when Ness uses his upB. Spaced tilts own Ness, and a standing upB works wonders IMO. Also Ness dies fairly quickly to a Giant Punch or and of DK smashes.

60-40 DK. This is judging off of my experience when I fight my friends Ness

Ness is not light. Mid weight actually. Ness recovery is quite underrated. IMO, your friend should try to recover better. Punish DK's recovery indeed. It's easy to telegraph his recovery and use Pk flash.

 

[KoSa!]

Yeah he never used the pk flash but I know it *****. But ness does indeed die easily. And ness' recovery isnt that good. While he is using the upB, i simiply bair the thunder or bair ness. Or even spike.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Ness is not light. Mid weight actually. Ness recovery is quite underrated. IMO, your friend should try to recover better. Punish DK's recovery indeed. It's easy to telegraph his recovery and use Pk flash.

I've always been on guard when recovering whenever my friend uses Ness and tried PK Flash, it's pretty easy to punish if you go for the ledge. What's harder to deal with is when he starts using PK Thunder to chase down the recovery, but because it hits up normally I have enough time to airdodge back down and recover at the ledge.

Ness's UpB is ridiculously punishable by DK, no matter where he is and how far away DK is DK almost always has at least one spiking option. Ness up high? Use Fair, even if it doesn't spike it will probably kill. Ness down low? Fair/Dair both work well, as well as a gliding Headbutt off the edge if DK is too far away.

 

[PKNintendo]

I've always been on guard when recovering whenever my friend uses Ness and tried PK Flash, it's pretty easy to punish if you go for the ledge. What's harder to deal with is when he starts using PK Thunder to chase down the recovery, but because it hits up normally I have enough time to airdodge back down and recover at the ledge.

Ness's UpB is ridiculously punishable by DK, no matter where he is and how far away DK is DK almost always has at least one spiking option. Ness up high? Use Fair, even if it doesn't spike it will probably kill. Ness down low? Fair/Dair both work well, as well as a gliding Headbutt off the edge if DK is too far away.

How does fair kill? It's not TOO punishable. I think DK's is more. The lag when he lands on the ground (back) is long enough to land and fsmash. If DK is down low, Ness can spike too e.c.t.

Thats why I think it's even. They're similar in the fact they can do a lot things to each other.

 

[Ripple]

*On a side not, if you DI TOWARDS DK out of the grab release, the downsmash will hit with the sourspot and it will have less KO power.

All an all I say 55-45.

but then you can chaingrab him, sorry, you lose in every situation

 

[Griever618]

I still see it as a 30-70 or 35-65 if you really want my opinion, and for the sake of this argument lets say he can't be chain grabbed. Okay well Dk's range is huge both on air and ground, Ness's only annoying move is most definitely PKfire. Does quite a bit of damage and if you don't mash out you get grabbed. Now at low damage not so bad.
His slide grab is one of the more annoying things in the game and he's not bad in any way. But DK' can space with Bair's and mix it up with another landing bair, a Forward B, or landing pivot grab, SA punch. And while Ness's aerials are quite good, they have a hard time getting through the range.
And to tell you the truth SA punch destroys any chance Ness would have in this match just because Ness's forward air or dash attack priority don't really work. Not to mention any missed move ends with Lag or just a wif will get you Pawunched. In general I believe ness can win if he can Keep DK in the air otherwise it is definately **** time for Ness. Because he can't out prioritize DK's arials with his. Not to mention low toss off stage to rump out spike. Or jump out there get hit by Pk thunder to gimp, Dk just has too many weapons to make this close to even.

I guess what I mean is Ness doesn't have anything to really counter DK's big weapons, Sa punch, All throws, Bair, Fair off stage(this one is kinda punishable). So when I say 30-35<70-65 thats how I feel in DK's favor.

CBK-on Grievers account.

 

[rehab]

This is a really gay match for Ness and is not even once DK gets in his best bair/tilt zoning range, which is easy to get into and hard to get out of. I detest playing it.

 

[gantrain05]

actually u can outprioritize DK in the air with ness's Fair, its just a matter of spacing, you can use the disjointed hitbox to hit DK's feet if you know hes going for a Bair approach, and i try to not spam PKfire its just way to punishable, especially if the DK decides to jump the moment you PK fire your going to eat a Bair in the face, and i don't really think PKFlash edgegaurd is really necessary in this matchup, if DK is far enough out that he has to use his UpB then a good ness should have 0 problems spiking him. ness's main problem in this matchup is approaching, because of DK's crazy range on his tilts and smashes its hard for him to get inside, but once he does he can really put some hurt on DK, im gonna have to go with 55-45 DK, its not so bad, but definatley not too hard for ness.

 

[PKNintendo]

but then you can chaingrab him, sorry, you lose in every situation

Fine, DI backwards to escape the CG

I still see it as a 30-70 or 35-65 if you really want my opinion, and for the sake of this argument lets say he can't be chain grabbed. Okay well Dk's range is huge both on air and ground, Ness's only annoying move is most definitely PKfire. Does quite a bit of damage and if you don't mash out you get grabbed. Now at low damage not so bad.
His slide grab is one of the more annoying things in the game and he's not bad in any way. But DK' can space with Bair's and mix it up with another landing bair, a Forward B, or landing pivot grab, SA punch. And while Ness's aerials are quite good, they have a hard time getting through the range.
And to tell you the truth SA punch destroys any chance Ness would have in this match just because Ness's forward air or dash attack priority don't really work. Not to mention any missed move ends with Lag or just a wif will get you Pawunched. In general I believe ness can win if he can Keep DK in the air otherwise it is definately **** time for Ness. Because he can't out prioritize DK's arials with his. Not to mention low toss off stage to rump out spike. Or jump out there get hit by Pk thunder to gimp, Dk just has too many weapons to make this close to even.

I guess what I mean is Ness doesn't have anything to really counter DK's big weapons, Sa punch, All throws, Bair, Fair off stage(this one is kinda punishable). So when I say 30-35<70-65 thats how I feel in DK's favor.

CBK-on Grievers account.

Figures.

Anywho, how can Ness be at 3-7? Seriously, your comparing him to Lucas.

I disagree with most points, seeing how all you did was state DK's pros, none of Ness' good pros, and went to his weaknesses. Lol, PKF on DK isn't just a grab, it's a full blown Fsmash that deals 25% uncharged. Using PKF tech's, such as PK jump, or firebounding or all those techs EB360 and the Ness main came up with allows DK to get caught in the flame. SA punch is annoying but it doesn't destroy Ness.

Seriously, CBK I get the feeling it's not a Ness vs DK matchup with you, it's DK vs kid. SA punch doesn't beat out every aerial Ness has, thats just stupid. It has SA frames, but DK's at a free fall afterwards, air dodge then punish. Jeez, im better off talking to someone else, it's clear that from your writing I doubt I can form a coherent matchup with you.

Ripple, can you give us some input? I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Criosphinx]

All tournament videos of Ness vs. DK. JoeC is too good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3_ASyRixdI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZzdnKn7gQM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9_QPoAg7eM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-uMpWKwDu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzsP4rXwnBA

 

[Griever618]

See I know it seems like DK is gimpable as hell because of his recovery but all a Dk has to do is stall his forward movement and wait for the spike to wiff and just move ahead. Trust me you have ages to just sit out there spinning while they miss spike and still recover if your not totally out there. THe Fair is alright in priority but can't out range Bair, not to mention PK fire only will work if he lands. As I said Ness's I play a lot, and I figured out they like to shield grab Bair so I Forward b and if my back air hit I break their shields a lot. Ness is definately on the losing side of this battle. I have played the best west coast Ness's and I've won and trust me it's too easy for DK. PK fire is only good for minor damage nothing that can turn the tide of the battle too much.

CBK - Griever's account.

 

[Griever618]

Look you wanted my opinion there it is, i've played all the pros so far and have destroyed them rather handily. And if you want to say they aren't pros well I don't really care then, I was just saying that Ness is too easy even at pro level for DK. And I only really play Pro's at tournaments none of this online BS, I know you might have not played a really good DK like myself, 740, Bum, or bigfoot. Because I know I'm so confident in the match up and my skill I'm willing to 100$mm any ness. But thats not just me bragging sorry about that, it's just the facts. I've never lost to a ness with my DK. I destroy them utterly, actually there was one that got me down to my last stock but it was definitely my mistake for letting that kill get me.

 

[PKNintendo]

See I know it seems like DK is gimpable as hell because of his recovery but all a Dk has to do is stall his forward movement and wait for the spike to wiff and just move ahead. Trust me you have ages to just sit out there spinning while they miss spike and still recover if your not totally out there. THe Fair is alright in priority but can't out range Bair, not to mention PK fire only will work if he lands. As I said Ness's I play a lot, and I figured out they like to shield grab Bair so I Forward b and if my back air hit I break their shields a lot. Ness is definately on the losing side of this battle. I have played the best west coast Ness's and I've won and trust me it's too easy for DK. PK fire is only good for minor damage nothing that can turn the tide of the battle too much.

CBK - Griever's account.

All Ness has to do is save his double jump, and not act like an idiot to use his recovery. Your point? It's still possible to get DK, Ness is not GIMPING DK, he's edge guarding him with PK flash.
Fair hurt's DK's foot, therefore Ness beats it out because DK is hurt. Aerial battle is determined by hit boxes. If Ness fair get's DK bair (regardless of range) Ness will win.

Why am I arguing with you, your like the last DK main I would want to talk to. ANYONE but you.


Anyone?

 

[PKNintendo]

Look you wanted my opinion there it is, i've played all the pros so far and have destroyed them rather handily. And if you want to say they aren't pros well I don't really care then, I was just saying that Ness is too easy even at pro level for DK. And I only really play Pro's at tournaments none of this online BS, I know you might have not played a really good DK like myself, 740, Bum, or bigfoot. Because I know I'm so confident in the match up and my skill I'm willing to 100$mm any ness. But thats not just me bragging sorry about that, it's just the facts. I've never lost to a ness with my DK. I destroy them utterly, actually there was one that got me down to my last stock but it was definitely my mistake for letting that kill get me.

You sound like a 10 year old. Seriously, I don't care who've you played seriously.

Hey, Bigfoot, or Ripple, any input?

 

[PKNintendo]

All tournament videos of Ness vs. DK. JoeC is too good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3_ASyRixdI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZzdnKn7gQM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9_QPoAg7eM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-uMpWKwDu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzsP4rXwnBA

Matchup input?

 

[Griever618]

alright dude well have fun, this is just childish to argue with you over and over. When you asked for my input, if you want matchup info fight the pro Dks.

 

[Ripple]

just let me take a shower and do some chores while I think about it and I'll give my opinion in about 40 min.

CBK- sorry, but you really do seem to over exaggerate DK in some of the match ups and severely underestimate the opponent at times. you don't take the time to think about what ness can do, you seem to think about what ness has done before. just saying take a little time to think some things through

 

[PKNintendo]

just let me take a shower and do some chores while I think about it and I'll give my opinion in about 40 min.

CBK- sorry, but you really do seem to over exaggerate DK in some of the match ups and severely underestimate the opponent at times. you don't take the time to think about what ness can do, you seem to think about what ness has done before. just saying take a little time to think some things through

Thanks, deeply appreciate it.

 

[Griever618]

Well what would you like me to make oppinions on, future matches I haven't had? All the Ness pro's I've played agree with me but I don't know what you want me to say.

 

[PKNintendo]

Well what would you like me to make oppinions on, future matches I haven't had? All the Ness pro's I've played agree with me but I don't know what you want me to say.

Name them.

 

[Griever618]

Simna, Edrees, Vorpal Storm, V-tech, I can't remember the two ness's in Arizona I played, Man in Oregon...I think his name was Ecleus or somethin like that. There are more let me go look at my tournaments and I'll make sure to post them all Give me a bit.

 

[PKNintendo]

Simna, Edrees, Vorpal Storm, V-tech, I can't remember the two ness's in Arizona I played, Man in Oregon...I think his name was Ecleus or somethin like that. There are more let me go look at my tournaments and I'll make sure to post them all Give me a bit.

Really now. And you said ALL of those Ness mains said DK owns him after playing you? Thats funny, I usually don't go up to Marth (after they beat me) and say MARTH OWNS NESS! Your not suggesting the great Simna and Edrees john do you?

I recall Simna saying the match was even as well. So to make sure you DID play them, I'll ask them.

 

[Griever618]

Okay go ahead.

 

[rehab]

This has been said before, but it bears repeating: DK's bair doesn't really give a crap about Ness' fair.

 

[gantrain05]

Really now. And you said ALL of those Ness mains said DK owns him after playing you? Thats funny, I usually don't go up to Marth (after they beat me) and say MARTH OWNS NESS! Your not suggesting the great Simna and Edrees john do you?

I recall Simna saying the match was even as well. So to make sure you DID play them, I'll ask them.

also, i believe you know edrees being my role model and the sole reason i stuck with peach, does not play ness nearly as well as peach, and considering peaches matchup against DK is pretty much 50/50, why would edrees counter with ness?

 

[PKNintendo]

also, i believe you know edrees being my role model and the sole reason i stuck with peach, does not play ness nearly as well as peach, and considering peaches matchup against DK is pretty much 50/50, why would edrees counter with ness?

Exactly.

Edrees a hero among mains period. Oh, you shouldn't have said 50-50. Im pretty sure CBK think's that DK has a 7-3 on Peach because's she's light. XD

 

[Griever618]

No playing all the peaches I originally thought it would be easy, Edrees, Sky, bones, have showed me it is 50 50. Much harder than I though, because they showed me what peach can do. And I've yet to see what Ness can really do to DK The PK ride spike is pretty cool but doesn't make it even just with that. Anyways I'm not arguing anymore.

 

[PKNintendo]

No playing all the peaches I originally thought it would be easy, Edrees, Sky, bones, have showed me it is 50 50. Much harder than I though, because they showed me what peach can do. And I've yet to see what Ness can really do to DK The PK ride spike is pretty cool but doesn't make it even just with that. Anyways I'm not arguing anymore.

Good. From evidence:

No playing all the peaches I originally thought it would be easy,

You've played all of the peaches? Plus, you originally thought DK would win, AGAIN. I bet you think DK has a 50-50 of D3, and didn't you think DK had an advantage on Wario even though he could CG him from 0-110?

 

[Griever618]

Look I stand by what I said, every wario I've fought I've beat, and until someone comes and shows me I don't need to change my mind. Playing theory fighter is really fun I'm sure, but I base all my thoughts on real matches and compare them to all of the matches of that sort. I thought peach was easy for DK, I fought pro peaches and I lost some I won some. Really showed me it was more even than I thought. As for ness the pro's I've played I've beat and they never have given me any reason to think otherwise. See if you go by here say and just stand by what other people say about matchups the tiers would never change. I've played Zelgadis in tournament and won, one on one while he infinited me...infinited. See now I'm not saying it's a good matchup but if you play a character well enough no matchup is bad right. It's like saying if I play perfectly I will always win, but since that isn't the case. Ness playing a really solid game still has trouble, thats saying he doesn't make any mistakes. But once you take in the mistake factor it is what I said. But look I don't want to argue I'm sorry but thats how I feel about matches I comment on.

I just fell experience>here say.

 

[PKNintendo]

Look I stand by what I said, every wario I've fought I've beat, and until someone comes and shows me I don't need to change my mind. Playing theory fighter is really fun I'm sure, but I base all my thoughts on real matches and compare them to all of the matches of that sort. I thought peach was easy for DK, I fought pro peaches and I lost some I won some. Really showed me it was more even than I thought. As for ness the pro's I've played I've beat and they never have given me any reason to think otherwise. See if you go by here say and just stand by what other people say about matchups the tiers would never change. I've played Zelgadis in tournament and won, one on one while he infinited me...infinited. See now I'm not saying it's a good matchup but if you play a character well enough no matchup is bad right. It's like saying if I play perfectly I will always win, but since that isn't the case. Ness playing a really solid game still has trouble, thats saying he doesn't make any mistakes. But once you take in the mistake factor it is what I said. But look I don't want to argue I'm sorry but thats how I feel about matches I comment on.

I just fell experience>here say.

I've played Zelgadis in tournament and won, one on one while he infinited me...infinited. See now I'm not saying it's a good matchup but if you play a character well enough no matchup is bad right.

Ness playing a really solid game still has trouble, thats saying he doesn't make any mistakes. But once you take in the mistake factor it is what I said. But look I don't want to argue I'm sorry but thats how I feel about matches I comment on.

You contradicted yourself to many times. Let me get this straight, DK can beat a DDD if he plays well, even thoug he get's infinited, yet Ness has trouble playing DK if he makes no mistakes and if he DOES make mistakes he's screwed. SPACE YOUR POSTS!


Theory>(slightly)Experience.

Again, WE DO NOT CARE WHO YOU PLAY!

 

[Griever618]

What I meant by the DDD comment was yeah if I play my Ideal game sure I can win, but since I've played a lot of other DDD's and lost. That doesn't make me think it's a good matchup though, it just simply says a perfect game with any character is possible. But one would have to take into account how many mistakes one makes because both characters can't have perfect games.

 

[PKNintendo]

What I meant by the DDD comment was yeah if I play my Ideal game sure I can win, but since I've played a lot of other DDD's and lost. That doesn't make me think it's a good matchup though, it just simply says a perfect game with any character is possible. But one would have to take into account how many mistakes one makes because both characters can't have perfect games.

Okay, whatever. Where the hell is Ripple? It's been an hour!

 

[Ripple]

Okay, whatever. Where the hell is Ripple? It's been an hour!

sorry, I'm typing as we speak. I'll edit this post soon


okay lets look at the basic pros and of each character against each other

DK pros
- has incredible spacing against ness
- can kill ness at early 70% because DK=powerhouse
- can edge guard ness almost better than anyone else
- grab release to d smash is a huge factor in this match up
- DK lives well until late 120s unless spiked
- When DK's bair collides with Ness' fair Dk's bair still does 13% or 5% weak but ness' fair does 2-4% because the following hits are canceled

Ness' pros
- Ness has a better aerial game that DK except off stage (it's equal)
- PKT 1 is a very useful weapon against DK
- ness spike DK very well
- ness is to small to get hit by a short hopped bair
- ness' grab game is very good against DK
- PK fire leads to a smash sometimes

I'll go in to more detail soon I'm still thinking+I can't type fast

 

[PKNintendo]

sorry, I'm typing as we speak. I'll edit this post soon


okay lets look at the basic pros and of each character against each other

DK pros
- has incredible spacing against ness
- can kill ness at early 70% because DK=powerhouse
- can edge guard ness almost better than anyone else
- grab release to d smash is a huge factor in this match up

Ness' pros
- Ness has a better aerial game that DK except off stage (it's equal)
- PKT is a very useful weapon against DK
- ness spike DK very well
- ness is to small to get hit by a short hopped bair
- ness' grab game is very good against DK

I'll go in to more detail soon I'm still thinking+I can't type

I agree with most posts except 2.
DK can edge guard Ness, that's a fact, but isn't there someone better than him? (not involved with the matchup)

But also, the grab release downsmash isn't TOO big. I mean, Ness has it against, what, Link and that doesn't destroy the matchup. Still, thats a good summary.

 

[Ripple]

I agree with most posts except 2.
DK can edge guard Ness, that's a fact, but isn't there someone better than him? (not involved with the matchup)

But also, the grab release downsmash isn't TOO big. I mean, Ness has it against, what, Link and that doesn't destroy the matchup. Still, thats a good summary.

just wait, I'll go into detail to show my reasoning

 

[Uffe]

I still say this match up is 55:45 in DK's favor. DK is tough because of his power, range and speed. His recovery is okay, but it's not how I defeat DK. And DK has a chain grab on Ness? That's news to me. Anyway, I've fought DK's from Dryn, to NeoMagic to Axis_eaglezero and I have to say that I did have a tough time winning, but it wasn't all that bad. I could just say that this is a neutral match up, but we all know that's not true.

And a lot of people like to think Ness is auto-gimped no matter what situation he's in. I can't tell you how annoying that is to read and hear because a good Ness main won't let you easily gimp them. Ness shouldn't be landing below the stage anyway unless he canceled a meteor smash or was hit by an intense attack while grounded making him slide off the stage. Anyway, I'm all for the 55:45. 60:40 doesn't sound right at all.

 

[PKNintendo]

just wait, I'll go into detail to show my reasoning

Yes but remember, If a Ness wants to, he can avoid the grab.
Ripple, I want you to not take this grab release downsmash to seriously.

 

[gantrain05]

Yes but remember, If a Ness wants to, he can avoid the grab.

Isn't Downsmash DK's weakest smash?

sadly, its still a rediculously strong smash as far as the average smash attack goes, but yes it is his weakest, but will still kill at very reasonable percents.