Ness vs. DK: (-3!) Matchup Discussion

[Eagleye893]

I played Ripple several times during the fall, and every game I played Ness vs. his DK, it was just sad... almost all of Ness' moveset leaves him open to some form of punishment because DK has a ton of range.
You literally can't use PK Fire unless DK is in a huge amount of lag; he can Ftilt or Dtilt you if you're on the ground and just do whatever if you're in the air.
His BAir's destroy our range on nearly anything. Also, dtilt, ftilt, jabs, etc. are enough to keep us from approaching... Not to mention THE FREAKING GRAB!

DK has a cargo release on Ness... Not only that, but he has a free kill out of it with DSmash... and not only that, but the cargo release is NEVER GOING TO STOP! The DK just needs to be smart. Once you get grabbed "byebye stock!"

he has things that outspace you, things that just outright kill you if you do ever get close, and on top of that, THE DAWNKEY PAWNCH! It's easy to read and everything, but it's yet another thing that prevents you from doing anything; it has super armor, so moving in for the damage might just get you pawnched.


there are a few things going for Ness:

PKT is great, up until he notices destroying it is as easy as poking out with a random move.
UAir is your best move for the entire matchup. REALLY sad.
You need to utilize OoS stuff to get damage on the DK. UAir, NAir.... whatever. USmash makes sense too because for a couple of moves from DK, his hitbox is extended for a short amount of time..... the problem is that short amount of time is often not enough.
DK in the air is easier to shut down. Also, DK offstage, given the correct circumstances. Getting him in those positions is near impossible.


I'm saying it's a -3, despite the -2 on the matchup chart. Convince me otherwise, 'cause from my own experience, it's beyond difficult.

 

[Neon!]

Assuming top level play this matchup is very hard for Ness. Like I said earlier it really depends on the DK's proficiency at getting the grab and completing the infinite. If DK is good at both of these I see DK winning this one +3. Our tipper jab also leads into grabs making dk even more of a threat at close range. Ness's air game is more versatile than ours but the range of DK's bair limits Ness's abilitiy to get in.

 

[Jamwa]

just pondering, but if you hit dk with a pk fire on his top-right/left, does it stun him like it does bowser and you can follow up with a pk fire on the opposite top-left/right>

 

[Eagleye893]

just pondering, but if you hit dk with a pk fire on his top-right/left, does it stun him like it does bowser and you can follow up with a pk fire on the opposite top-left/right>

No, it doesn't. DK can DI out much easier than bowser. Also, following up like that isn't a good idea because DK has a UAir which hits just perfectly.

Most shenanigans such as those involving PK Fire are totally disregarded at high levels of play because EVERYONE SDI's the first hit... or the second. It's easy to react to and see coming. I only really use it to lead into everything else and bait out responses, but in most cases you can't do so safely.

 

[Lukingordex]

This MU is just terrible. Ness gets outranged by everything and DK has a grab infinite to boot

 

[Jamwa]

No, it doesn't. DK can DI out much easier than bowser. Also, following up like that isn't a good idea because DK has a UAir which hits just perfectly.

Most shenanigans such as those involving PK Fire are totally disregarded at high levels of play because EVERYONE SDI's the first hit... or the second. It's easy to react to and see coming. I only really use it to lead into everything else and bait out responses, but in most cases you can't do so safely.

hmm what about his recov? possible cazcombo?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I think DDD can Grab release infinite Ness/Lucas because of his Cheap Grab Range but I will test it

 

[Nesswantstobattle]

I played Ripple several times during the fall, and every game I played Ness vs. his DK, it was just sad... almost all of Ness' moveset leaves him open to some form of punishment because DK has a ton of range.
You literally can't use PK Fire unless DK is in a huge amount of lag; he can Ftilt or Dtilt you if you're on the ground and just do whatever if you're in the air.
His BAir's destroy our range on nearly anything. Also, dtilt, ftilt, jabs, etc. are enough to keep us from approaching... Not to mention THE FREAKING GRAB!

DK has a cargo release on Ness... Not only that, but he has a free kill out of it with DSmash... and not only that, but the cargo release is NEVER GOING TO STOP! The DK just needs to be smart. Once you get grabbed "byebye stock!"

he has things that outspace you, things that just outright kill you if you do ever get close, and on top of that, THE DAWNKEY PAWNCH! It's easy to read and everything, but it's yet another thing that prevents you from doing anything; it has super armor, so moving in for the damage might just get you pawnched.


there are a few things going for Ness:

PKT is great, up until he notices destroying it is as easy as poking out with a random move.
UAir is your best move for the entire matchup. REALLY sad.
You need to utilize OoS stuff to get damage on the DK. UAir, NAir.... whatever. USmash makes sense too because for a couple of moves from DK, his hitbox is extended for a short amount of time..... the problem is that short amount of time is often not enough.
DK in the air is easier to shut down. Also, DK offstage, given the correct circumstances. Getting him in those positions is near impossible.


I'm saying it's a -3, despite the -2 on the matchup chart. Convince me otherwise, 'cause from my own experience, it's beyond difficult.

I would say Ness is +1 on this fight, here is why.

1. Dk is very easy to combo because of his hitboxes, so Ness can combo him for days

2. Ness has pretty good punishes for Dk if the player messes up on something

3. Ness has alot of kill power in his back throw and uair, so Ness can kill Dk pretty easily once he is about 110%

Dk does have a few things going for him though, and here they are.

1. Like you said, Dk has great range, but Ness can sheld or sidestep the attacks

2. Ness recovery can be spiked very easily, but spiking is a risk and reword type thing. If Dk fails to get a spike , he will probably lose a stock, and if he does get a spike, he might not recover on stage because of his horrible vertical recovery

That is why I think Ness has the avantage

 

[Silvalfo]

I would say Ness is +1 on this fight, here is why.

1. Dk is very easy to combo because of his hitboxes, so Ness can combo him for days

2. Ness has pretty good punishes for Dk if the player messes up on something

3. Ness has alot of kill power in his back throw and uair, so Ness can kill Dk pretty easily once he is about 110%

Dk does have a few things going for him though, and here they are.

1. Like you said, Dk has great range, but Ness can sheld or sidestep the attacks

2. Ness recovery can be spiked very easily, but spiking is a risk and reword type thing. If Dk fails to get a spike , he will probably lose a stock, and if he does get a spike, he might not recover on stage because of his horrible vertical recovery

That is why I think Ness has the avantage

this doesn't seem to be the case for brawl

What you said applies to Smash 4, but long combos, bthrow and uair early kills and DK having viable meteors do not happen in this MU in Brawl.

In Brawl mechanics, DK had infinite regrabs on Ness (with a kill confirm), his bair was even more disjointed than it is in Smash4 and Ness was a much softer punisher, which all contribute for a terrible MU for Ness.