Ness techniques that are still in the game

[kennypu]

Hey guys, long time no see. With the release of SSB4, I will probably be active on the Ness boards again. I have a Japanese 3DS, and bought the game, so I will be listing below basic changes that has been made to ness and his moveset, as well as some tech's that are still in the game. Move names will be taken from the PK Cross thread.

General Movement/Mechanics Changes

• Dash dancing has been removed
• Foxtrot is still in the game
• Pivot grab, as well as True Pivot, is still in the game
• B-pivot, or Wavebouncing is also still in the game. much harder to do with anything except neutral B, but its do-able.
• Jab canceling has been removed (jab->crouch cancel->jab)
• Jab lock is possible up to 3 times, after the 4th jab, the opponent will automatically be in the stand position.

Ground Moves
Ness's ground moves are more or less the same, with different timings/lag. One thing to note is with up-smash, Ness does not leave the yoyo out anymore upon charging, he still has it in his hand.

Aerial Moves
Ness's aerials has gone through significant changes.
First thing you will notice when first playing, is that his dair is much slower, and much harder to land the spike. You must sweet spot and hit at the right timing now to land the spike, or else they go flying sideways.

Next is his bair. It is a good move as usual, and although it can be used as a kill move at high percentage, it lacks the impact and power it had in brawl.

Up air is still good, it may have a little more lag at the end.

Lastly, fair. This move will be what you will be using the most. Besides being a good spacing tool and multi-hitter, they seemed to have changed how it works a little. I still need to do more testing, but for some reason, when using fair on an enemy, the enemy's trajectory will be the same as ness's trajectory. For example, if you fast fall fair now off the stage, once it is finished the opponent will fall down, instead of flying back. You may find yourself using this to gimp opponents rather than dair.

Special Moves
PK Flash - no big change, still need to play around with it.

PK Fire - because of the weaker DI in the game, it seems to be stickier than it was in brawl. regardless, opponents can usually jump out, or spam a move while in it.

PK Thunder - The biggest change with PK Thunder: it will not die if the opponent runs into it right when you use it. In brawl, most opponents that know the Ness match up will follow ness off stage, and stay above his head to take the PK Thunder to gimp him. This will not work anymore. The PK Thunder will just hit the opponent, and go through them much like Lucas's PK Thunder, minus the knockback. This only occurs only at the start of PK Thunder, and they may run into it after its been out a little bit.

PSI Magnet - Not too many change here, except absorption animation. Absorbing doesn't happen right away like in brawl, the projectile will swirl around ness and you will absorb it after a little bit. This can be seen as a nerf, since your damage will not be reduced right away.

Advanced Techniques
Some confirmed AT's from Brawl:

• wavebounce
• PK Jump/Firebound (although much harder unless you use tap jump)
• PK Pivot
• PK Fire Cancel

• Boost grabbing/ Pivot Boost grabbing (aka, Dash Attack Cancel Grab). Input is Dash attack, on first few frames of dash attack, grab, or initiate a pivot grab. It is easy to see the difference when using a boost pivot grab, because you will slide backwards while attempting to grab.
• Slide off edge of platform/stage with PKT for instant PKT2 thing. Still works, however, because of difference in distance of ness flying off the stage/platform, and difference of PKT trajectory, This will send you flying under the stage, so do not use off the stage. It will however be appropriate from a platform, as it will allow you to attack behind you onto the stage.
• Item DJC (Double Jump Cancel)

Custom Movesets
Image source courtesy of http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2gi4cn/update_custom_move_compilation_thread/

There are 3 available moves per special, including the default one. As I'm sure most are familiar with Ness's default specials, I will only cover the 2 non-default moves.

Neutral B
Rising PK Flash
PK Flash will raise mostly up, thus going farther up than the default one, however, the power is weaker. You can move it sideways but only slightly.

PK Freeze
Ness will use PK Freeze instead of PK Flash, which will freeze the opponent on impact.

Side B
PK Fire Pillar
the PK Fire burns longer and stronger, dealing more damage with the down side that it doesn't travel as far.

Flying "Knockback" PK Fire
PK Fire travels farther, however doesn't raise a pillar but knocks the opponent back. Much like Lucas.

Up B
Piercing PK Thunder
PK Thunder will go through opponents, and PKT2 will become multi-hit instead of a huge knockback. Much like Lucas.

Big PK Thunder
PK Thunder becomes bigger, lasts shorter, and much harder to move around, however is much more powerful, and your PKT2 becomes stronger as well, however, much shorter. IMO, the PK Thunder was very slow, and would not recommend using this one as it can reduce your camp game with PKT. You will also sacrifice your ability to recover.

Down B
Attraction PSI Magnet
Your PSI Magnet does not absorb anymore, however, will pull in enemies, and has a hitbox.

Front PSI Magnet
Ness will use PSI Magnet in front of him instead of around him, and also can absorb as well as has a hitbox. Much like lucas.

I will add onto this list as I find/verify AT's. I will also add custom moveset changes, haven't gone around to those yet.
Thanks for reading!!

Let me know if there is anything from the game you'd like to know if still exists, etc.

 

[Outlawstarx]

His back throw, i know in brawl it had the highest KO percentage of all back throws. Is it just as strong in smash 4?

 

[kennypu]

His back throw, i know in brawl it had the highest KO percentage of all back throws. Is it just as strong in smash 4?

although kills are much harder, and takes higher percentage in this game, yes it is still a viable kill move

 

[ToferTheHuman]

His throw kills at 130-150

 

[Tikao]

ok i just wrote a wall of text, so just skip to the end of after the "-----------" , if you don't want to read everysthing

sometimes his bthrow killed as early as 90%, but mostly between 110-130%( light - normal ) and 130-160% for heavy charakters like bowser

i haven't played the game myself, but i have actually watched quite some games (like 30-40hours of streams in the last 3 days, yep, thats a lot)

many players actually staled the move by either bthrowing when they thought it killed or simply for stage control, and since ness isn't the most popular charakter, i don't got like 12372243 games with good examples, so everything I'm saying here is based around what i saw of unstaled bthrows

bthrow could kill people around 90%, so i was happy because i thought it would be buffed, but then again, it didn't kill people at 110% at the same point of the stage, with the same character sometimes

the blastzones in this game are weird, the one at both sides are realy far away while the on on top isn't even nearly as far away

while ness' bthrow killed charakters to the side and the top in brawl, it seems that it only kills to the top in smash 4 (unless you're right on the edge of the side, where you are throwing someone at)

so the position of the point of the throw seems to be less inportant since you want to kill them to the top (unless they got enough percentages to be killed to the side in this game, like 150%)

now, the new DI comes into play, that's something that's hasrd to see, but easier to feel, when you play the game myself, so i will just say what I've been told

DI in brawl worked in every direction, you press one, the charakter flies more in that direction

in smash 4, that's different, you can press down and DI downwards, meaning you will fly more towards the side or lower in general, but you can't DI in any direction anymore, and since the blastzones on the side being far away, you can DI moves that kill to the top better than in brawl, since it won't be as likely to kill you to the side instead
that obviously depends on how near you are to the top blastzone, something like an uair might kill earlier if you hit them high enough then a move on the ground

so if all of that ios true, DI-ing moves that kill to the top and actually hit you on the ground (like a throw) will be better/easier

on top of that, the direction Ness' bthrow sents you isn't straight upwards, so that DI factor becomes even more relevant

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOOOO since Ness' bthrow is more about killing to the top now, it might be able to kill as early as 90% (even if it isn't a light charakter, i saw robin getting killed by that and i suppose he is neither light nor heavy), maybe even jiggz around 70-80% (haven't seen any footage of that, just speculation)

but DI-ing that move is waaaay more important and something that would have the potential to kill you around 90% might kill you around 120-130% because the blastzones to the side are faaaaar away and Ness' bthrow and ness' bthrow doesn't sent you straight upwards

everything i just said might be wrong, there is simply not that much footage on that move being unstaled and i'm still unsure about that DI thing, but if that is true, then the bthrow might be nerfed if your opponent DIs correctly


and just on a personal note : hi kennypu, you were the reason why i started playing ness back then, the first good ness i saw :D
nice to see you

 

[kennypu]

and just on a personal note : hi kennypu, you were the reason why i started playing ness back then, the first good ness i saw :D
nice to see you

nice to meet you too

 

[kennypu]

--Updates--
09/16/2014
added custom move sets, a few more ATs

 

[Knife Myths]

Is there any downside to the Lucas style Magnet? In Brawl it was more or less objectively better since it still covered you on all sides.

 

[Tikao]

nvm i just derped, was something different than i thought

so something else : if you use Lucas' pk-fire as a custom move, do you get lucas' pk-jump?

 

[tehplanefreak]

nvm i just derped, was something different than i thought

so something else : if you use Lucas' pk-fire as a custom move, do you get lucas' pk-jump?

The PK Jump glitch may have been fixed in the latest iteration of SSB4. Also, the meta-game is still developing, so we've yet to see what Ness glitches may be discovered.

 

[kennypu]

The PK Jump glitch may have been fixed in the latest iteration of SSB4. Also, the meta-game is still developing, so we've yet to see what Ness glitches may be discovered.

PK Jump is still in the game, and @ Tikao no, using lucas's pk fire did not result in lucas pk jump, you get ness's pk jump but pk fire shooting straight

 

[Opana]

Great Job, but I'd like to point out that Dash Dancing is still possible, just a bit harder.

 

[Tikao]

heared dashdancing is useless in smash 4 plus it is harder

 

[Opana]

heared dashdancing is useless in smash 4 plus it is harder

Thanks.

 

[AsteriskRocks]

Thanks.

Can confirm.

 

[Eagleye893]

PK Jump is in the game. So is the glitch where if you land and use PK-Fire at the right time, the bolt goes horizontal.

 

[Forever 9]

PK Jump is in the game. So is the glitch where if you land and use PK-Fire at the right time, the bolt goes horizontal.

Is that similar to Lucas's Pk Fire jump that sends himself flying?

 

[kennypu]

Is that similar to Lucas's Pk Fire jump that sends himself flying?

yes same input but in ness's case he fly's foward instead of straight up

 

[Opana]

Thanks.

Dash Dancing returns in SSB4

 

[RicoStealth]

I don't know if this has been stated, but recently I have noticed his Down throw into fair is very easy to escape. It could be the new patch, but before people were not escaping it and now just a jump gets you out of the combo. Then again, it could be my error. maybe someone could test it out?

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I discovered a glitch with Ness. It's not something that can be exploited, but it's fun to pull off.

Run towards the ledge side-b with the same timing as you would up-b ledge-cancel. Ness will say PK Fire but he will not shoot the bolt. I know that it's nothing major, but it's sort of like taunt-canceling in SSB64 and PM so I thought that I would make note of it.

 

[Pepto]

Ness can magnet cancel (roll, jump, or spot dodge immediately after absorbing). The only drawback is that you don't absorb the attack immediately, so you run the risk of not actually healing if you cancel too soon. That being said, the only experience I've had not healing is with Dark Pit's arrow. I haven't done any extensive testing, but for the most part I've found you can still get consistent, albeit delayed healing with the cancel.

 

[kennypu]

Ness can magnet cancel (roll, jump, or spot dodge immediately after absorbing). The only drawback is that you don't absorb the attack immediately, so you run the risk of not actually healing if you cancel too soon. That being said, the only experience I've had not healing is with Dark Pit's arrow. I haven't done any extensive testing, but for the most part I've found you can still get consistent, albeit delayed healing with the cancel.

I don't think the delayed healing is from the cancel, but rather is from the new magnet animation. even if you keep the magnet up, the healing doesn't occur until the full animation of absorbing is finished

 

[kennypu]

I discovered a glitch with Ness. It's not something that can be exploited, but it's fun to pull off.

Run towards the ledge side-b with the same timing as you would up-b ledge-cancel. Ness will say PK Fire but he will not shoot the bolt. I know that it's nothing major, but it's sort of like taunt-canceling in SSB64 and PM so I thought that I would make note of it.

this existed in brawl, and is actually an at I noted back in the day it's called pk fire cancelling, and you will see it in EB360's guide in brawl ness discussions

 

[DarkStarStorm]

this existed in brawl, and is actually an at I noted back in the day it's called pk fire cancelling, and you will see it in EB360's guide in brawl ness discussions

It literally has no use other than "taunt canceling" however. Unless I'm missing something...

 

[kennypu]

It literally has no use other than "taunt canceling" however. Unless I'm missing something...

nah, there was a couple uses in brawl. the biggest was if you pk fire cancel then c-stick down, it allowed you to dair while floating side ways. if you just go off the stage and dair, you end up going down. this way you can go for a spike and still grab the ledge without using jump.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

nah, there was a couple uses in brawl. the biggest was if you pk fire cancel then c-stick down, it allowed you to dair while floating side ways. if you just go off the stage and dair, you end up going down. this way you can go for a spike and still grab the ledge without using jump.

But in Smash 4 it seems to have little utility.

 

[kennypu]

But in Smash 4 it seems to have little utility.

not entirely true. I regularly do a reverse pk fire cancel off the stage so that I can run off the stage backwards to hit opponent with bair. without pkfc, you would need to have your back faced before going off stage, which means you're going to have to jump. this way even if they are low, I can just run and smack them with bair while falling, no jump required.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

not entirely true. I regularly do a reverse pk fire cancel off the stage so that I can run off the stage backwards to hit opponent with bair.

RAR can do the same thing, although you have to jump. So I guess it has some utility, but still we seem to have a gross lack of advanced techniques in this game.

 

[kennypu]

RAR can do the same thing, although you have to jump. So I guess it has some utility, but still we seem to have a gross lack of advanced techniques in this game.

sorry if you missed my edit, but yes you're right, you can do the same thing with RAR, however you need to use a jump, and if they're away and under the stage, the ability to pkfc->FF bair comes out very fast and the option is nice to have.

There has actually been discussion in one of the stickied threads about it's use along side with pkt2. Definitely not an exciting AT, but there is some use for it

 

[DarkStarStorm]

sorry if you missed my edit, but yes you're right, you can do the same thing with RAR, however you need to use a jump, and if they're away and under the stage, the ability to pkfc->FF bair comes out very fast and the option is nice to have.

There has actually been discussion in one of the stickied threads about it's use along side with pkt2. Definitely not an exciting AT, but there is some use for it

Yeah I had missed the edit. All characters are capable of performing it, with varying degrees of use. Fox, and Sheik's up-b work exceptionally with this tech.

 

[kennypu]

Yeah I had missed the edit. All characters are capable of performing it, with varying degrees of use. Fox, and Sheik's up-b work exceptionally with this tech.

those are boosted specials (like Mario Cape off ledge or boosted pk thunder) and that's an entirely different AT xD

 

[DarkStarStorm]

those are boosted specials (like Mario Cape off ledge or boosted pk thunder) and that's an entirely different AT xD

Oops, I forgot that you can't read minds and see that I changed the subject lol. We're talking about Boosted Specials now XD.

 

[Pepto]

I don't think the delayed healing is from the cancel, but rather is from the new magnet animation. even if you keep the magnet up, the healing doesn't occur until the full animation of absorbing is finished

I know that the delay is from the new magnet and not the cancel. But I'm saying that I couldn't heal from Dark Pit's arrow even though I absorbed it, because I canceled the magnet. The delay is inevitable, but there wasn't a delay with DP's arrow, it just straight up didn't heal. It's definitely the exception, not the rule, but it's something to look out for.