Ness may be Psychic but he sure is braindead.

[Gabukin]

I guess this is a personal gripe but why is Ness so easy to use in this iteration?
I always thought of Ness as a highly technical character in previous smash games but now it feels like everyone can do well with him.

 

[Luco]

Well at a competitive level Ness isn't ridiculous to use. I'd argue the reason people can do well with him more easily is because he's actually good tier this time around.

 

[Gabukin]

Well at a competitive level Ness isn't ridiculous to use. I'd argue the reason people can do well with him more easily is because he's actually good tier this time around.

but that sucks. Now that he's so good everyone is going to abuse him. They wont use him because they actually like him they'll use him because hes good.
Regardless I still feel like he's A LOT easier to use in this game.

 

[Luco]

but that sucks. Now that he's so good everyone is going to abuse him. They wont use him because they actually like him they'll use him because hes good.
Regardless I still feel like he's A LOT easier to use in this game.

Actually for whatever reason he still seems to have a small-ish player-base, that enjoys him for being him. It's weird.

Ness' PKT is faster so it makes that easier; but I think the other big reason he feels easier is because his combos are not that hard to pull of reasonably consistently.

 

[Noa.]

What about him was difficult to use in Brawl? I'm sure that he was technical in 64 and melee like most characters were, but in brawl he seemed easy enough.

 

[Ranias]

I used Ness as my second best in Brawl because I liked him, but I couldn't use him against knowledgeable opponents in tournaments because of his ridiculously abusable grab release animation.

I agree with the other replies in that he isn't really easier to use; he's just better now.

 

[Ogopogo]

Is anyone really technical in Smash 4, though?

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Nah man, brain dead characters are little mac and rosa+luma. I'll give shiek a pass since... you have to be quick to even get the fairs in, the only braindead one is d-throw u-air.

As for ness no. You know he's gonna grab > d-throw, most likely will get the grab via PK fire, so yeah, thats his main thing, but it can be stopped. and thats where good ness players show their stuff with his aerials, so no, he's not braindead.

 

[Uffe]

He was better in Brawl. The only thing that held him back was the death grab from Marth and the grab releases from other characters. He's actually been slightly nerfed in this game. His back throw is still a killer, but it takes a lot longer now because the ceilings are higher and the blast zones are farther. His down air has to be precise, in order to spike opponents. His fair seems to have shorter range, and his horizontal aerials don't seem to be as good. You've got your traitors, who use a good character in one game but change to a better character in another because their previous main isn't as good. Then you've got your devotees, who will stick with the character they've been using no matter how good or bad that character is. It happens quite often, and to be honest, I do hate the bandwagon.

 

[Mettie7]

Is anyone really technical in Smash 4, though?

Not on 3DS we aren't :y

 

[Brendan Stepladder]

but that sucks. Now that he's so good everyone is going to abuse him. They wont use him because they actually like him they'll use him because hes good.
Regardless I still feel like he's A LOT easier to use in this game.

Ness got buffed, but with characters like Shiek and Rosaluma running around, I doubt there will be too many bandwagon players for Ness. I understand your concern though. As a Bowser main, buffs can feel ill-fitting at times, because using lower-tier character for so long can make their flaws seem weirdly intrinsic to the character.

 

[Luco]

He was better in Brawl. The only thing that held him back was the death grab from Marth and the grab releases from other characters. He's actually been slightly nerfed in this game. His back throw is still a killer, but it takes a lot longer now because the ceilings are higher and the blast zones are farther. His down air has to be precise, in order to spike opponents. His fair seems to have shorter range, and his horizontal aerials don't seem to be as good. You've got your traitors, who use a good character in one game but change to a better character in another because their previous main isn't as good. Then you've got your devotees, who will stick with the character they've been using no matter how good or bad that character is. It happens quite often, and to be honest, I do hate the bandwagon.

His Fair looks nerfed and to a slight extent it is but not by a noticeable margin. Everyone else's range was decreased significantly too. :o

A few of Ness' tools were definitely nerfed; though i'd agree that the changes to Fair to make it a combo move and his wall bounce double PKT with lucas' properties on startup feel like an overall greater buff to me. :D

 

[C0rvus]

Ness has always been about PK Fire > Down Throw > Followup in all the other games, at least at a casual level. I'm not worried about people flocking to him because he's good, because honestly, there are much better choices. But, longtime Ness fans will likely come out of the cracks and pick him up, and that's cool.

He's not that easy to use, considering his recovery, odd jumps, and low range. I'd like to think that's enough to scare off folks looking for an "easy win". He's just better than usual is all.

 

[Earthbound360]

Lol Ness braindead, when characters like Sheik and Marth exist.

 

[ToferTheHuman]

I think he is just easy to maneuver with the 3DS controls and able to punish others easily.
While others are a lot harder to use and require more time when it comes to input of buttons.

 

[Freikugel]

Well. Considering competitive play is barely taking off, we'll have to wait and see if Ness evolves, gains new techs, discovers a niche, etc. As a base character, though, he's great, and that's all I hope for. I'm sick and tired of Mother reps being disregarded as low tier.

I think Ness' adaptability to each opponent's playstyle is what makes him a rewarding, fun-to-use, potent character; he always has a trick up his sleeve. And if more people are drawn to the Mother series like they were in Brawl, I'll be ecstatic.

I hope in the next installment, they'll combine positive elements in both Brawl and 4 to make him better than ever. For now, though, let's all do our best to represent not only him, but the entire franchise. =)

 

[foppy]

ness is NOT braindead. as mentioned by many people in this thread, he's just better. he still has poor range and an awful recovery, the same problems he's always had. by no means are people going to abuse him for being good. he's mid tier at best and will continue to have a small player base

 

[Mysteltainn]

I don't think so. Ness seems to be picked up easier than before, but seems hard to master. The reason that more people flock to him this time is because PK Thunder is a bit easier to control due to it being faster and he cannot be grab-released any more like before (which heavily damaged his competitive potential). It's one thing to go PK Fire -> Grab -> U-Throw -> F-Air, but the moment the enemy takes advantage of PK Fire's ending lag and dodges or baits it, the path becomes a crossroad. The road splits into the bad Ness players who will keep trying and failing to change strategy, and the good ones who will begin using mind games abusing his double jump, PK Thunder, Tilts and aerials like N-Air and B-Air to achieve what they want.

Ness is much better in this instalment, and he will no doubt be a higher tier than before, but he still maintains some of his big old problems, being his range and recovery. PK Thunder can improve all it likes, but players with reflectors and Rosalinas who capitalise on this issue are going to be a pain to deal with no matter what.

 

[Noa.]

I honestly don't think that ness is really hard at all. He's just a punishing character if you don't recover safely against a good opponent. Otherwise he's no harder or easier than any other characters.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

As a Ness main, I find it abit offensive to call him "braindead" just because you find it hard to go against Ness players. I've spent alot of time mastering Ness, and he defiantly isn't easy to master. He's just been buffed, which is about time considering he's the sole representation of the Mother series now, and it'll hopefully help spark further interest in his series if people actually find him useful.

 

[Comorant]

For a moment I was expecting this to be one of those threads complaining about Ness being able to consistently KO with backthrow.

Anyway Ness feels fine honestly. You still have to fight against some pretty huge weaknesses such as the very short range on attacks, less than safe Specials, and a fairly mediocre recovery. He's gotten a ton stronger and I feel like at the very least he'll be viable, but he still has the same fears as ever.

 

[15 [イチゴ]]

You played Ness before he was good?

You better kill those hipster thoughts and save yo' hood!

 

[Hukster]

His Fair looks nerfed and to a slight extent it is but not by a noticeable margin. Everyone else's range was decreased significantly too. :o

A few of Ness' tools were definitely nerfed; though i'd agree that the changes to Fair to make it a combo move and his wall bounce double PKT with lucas' properties on startup feel like an overall greater buff to me. :D

Ness' FAir from Brawl to Smash 4 is pretty significant in range difference actually. The only thing that makes it "better" is because you can't DI out of it now. If Brawl and Melee you couldn't DI out of it, oh my gosh that FAir. Smash 4's FAir is pretty bad overall other than the fact that you CAN actually combo out of it. Although, I feel people just need to learn how to vector better or something, because I've had people vector out of the DThrow to FAir combo at 0%, where I wouldn't be able to land the FAir even on the opponent.

Rough estimate on the FAir range difference. Red circle is the Brawl FAir, and black circle is the Smash 4 FAir.

 

[Noa.]

Dthrow combos are different depending on their percent, your percent, and their vectoring. But either uair or fair is almost always guaranteed, or you are at least able to force them to airdodge and punish them with nair.

 

[Luco]

Ness' FAir from Brawl to Smash 4 is pretty significant in range difference actually. The only thing that makes it "better" is because you can't DI out of it now. If Brawl and Melee you couldn't DI out of it, oh my gosh that FAir. Smash 4's FAir is pretty bad overall other than the fact that you CAN actually combo out of it. Although, I feel people just need to learn how to vector better or something, because I've had people vector out of the DThrow to FAir combo at 0%, where I wouldn't be able to land the FAir even on the opponent.

Rough estimate on the FAir range difference. Red circle is the Brawl FAir, and black circle is the Smash 4 FAir.

I'm talking relatively, in a game where everyone has had significant range nerfs. Also Ness' circle is the black line but its hitbox is actually slightly larger, and some hits of Fair I think are ever so slightly bigger than others. Can't confirm that, though. :o

 

[Noa.]

Yeah while fair's range was nerfed it definitely feels bigger than that black circle to me anyways. And in comparison to the rest of the cast the disjointed hitbox is still quite difficult to beat.

 

[The 0ne]

but that sucks. Now that he's so good everyone is going to abuse him. They wont use him because they actually like him they'll use him because hes good.
Regardless I still feel like he's A LOT easier to use in this game.

Who does that make you think of? YOSHI YOSHI YOSHI

 

[Gabukin]

Who does that make you think of? YOSHI YOSHI YOSHI

Yoshi Is braindead too! so is Lucario.

 

[Overmaster]

I like Ness, but I'm reluctant to use him because
1) The recover (When you regularly play Sheik, you become ab it of a snob)
2) I seriously preferred Mother 3 to Earthbound and I feel like I'm a traitor for playing the EB whizkid.

 

[smashbroskilla]

What about him was difficult to use in Brawl? I'm sure that he was technical in 64 and melee like most characters were, but in brawl he seemed easy enough.

He was powerful in smash 64. His dair came out like immediately. Like maybe 1 frame startup. Nes and Captain Falcon ganked people all day in smash 64.

 

[Noa.]

The term is gimped not ganked. And ness started out high tier in 64 but then dropped to bottom tier eventually.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Being a Ness main is some sort of elitist thing now?

People will get offended by anything these days.

"Regular" blokes can get good at Ness now? Great! The more the merrier!

 

[Nocally]

Doing well with a character in a game like smash where accessibility is the key word to the thousands of non-hardcore fans that play it, is not really an achievement.

playing well and actually being great with a character is two completely different things.