Ness Matchup

[thesage]

I just felt like posting what I think of Ness' matchups. I'm bored lol. Feel free to debate.


Fox 35/100
Marth 25/100
Sheik 30/100
Falco 35/100
Peach 30/100
Captain Falcon 45/100 ~~~~~ Ness' best high tier matchup and my personal favorite lol
Jigglypuff 40/100
Ice Climbers 30/100
Samus 40/100
Dr. Mario 40/100
Ganondorf 45/100
Luigi 40/100
Donkey Kong 45/100
Mario 40/100
Link 45/100
Pikachu 50/100
Young Link 45/100
Roy 50/100
Ness 50/100
Yoshi 55/100
Bowser 70/100
Mewtwo 55/100
Kirby ????????
Pichu ???????

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why is Marth so bad?

I've been flamed to high hell for saying that Marth ***** Ness so I want to know why you think it's bad.

I think Fox and Sheik are worse than him, regardless. I don't think Ness has much on Fox dash dance laser platform runaway and Sheik just death combos him and they both have the most hilariously stupid edgeguards on him ever.

 

[thesage]

Cuz Ness can at least combo those characters. That's just my opinion though. He can also lol edgeguard them too.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I actually think Roy/Ness is like 65/35. So hard if the Roy knows anything.

 

[thesage]

Ness can **** combo Roy really hard though. Use your speed to get through his range and **** him with uair, nair, fair, grab, or dair.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Uair combos are good, I agree. Nair sets up well for an edgeguard. But fair and dair are risky.

And ... if you whiff your grab, expect to be punished horribly.

Also, Roy's throws suck against most characters but against Ness he can actually follow them up pretty well. Ugh. Considering his ridiculous grab range, that's another huge problem there.

 

[thesage]

I just played vs. somebody that sometimes plays Roy. I just noticed that all the combos that should work on Marth but don't since he doesn't get hitstun'd by Ness, work on Roy.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yea Roy get's combo'd mad hard. But he's just hard to approach and get the first hit to start a combo. So much range. >_<

 

[thesage]

Approach smarter or camp then?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Mmhmm, you pretty much have to camp until you get a grab.

 

[thesage]

I laik dd camping.

 

[thesage]

Bump for great justice.

I really enjoy baiting with Ness. I also like cg'ing ffers.

If anybody every finds a way to combo Marth please tell me.

I did some research and discovered Peach can cc most of Ness' moves to like 80%. How gay. Fair starts **** combo'ing her after 130% though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Peach is gay like that. Just trick her into dash attack your shield from behind and then DJC bair oos.

Also, SH AC dair is pretty leet. Just throws those out there if you know she'll CC dsmash, then jab reset her and start the pwnage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Also, SH AC dair is pretty leet. Just throws those out there if you know she'll CC dsmash, then jab reset her and start the pwnage.

This is more legit than it sounds. Peaches don't DI so you don't really have to worry about them ASDIing the jab reset ever ^.^

On that note I have a question.

Is D-tilt reset better than jab reset?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Is D-tilt reset better than jab reset?

From my experience, yes. It has less probability (obviously) of missing since the hitbox reaches lower. You can also multi dtilt for a little extra damage.

It also has no knockback, so it will never stop resetting (regardless of percent).

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's what I thought so now my suspicion is confirmed.

So is Ness mostly DD camp and do long wavedashes until the opponent does something dumb and then you do an appropriate combo starter (Dair, grab, Uair, dash attack) and try to do a big combo after?

 

[thesage]

You can "jab lock" with d-tilt. It's kinda lolzy. Doesn't work at higher percents cuz d-tilt sends the opponent too far.

Edit: KirbyKaze, yea that's pretty much Ness except fair, nair, and u-tilt can be used to start combos as well. Ness is all about baiting.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So is Ness mostly DD camp and do long wavedashes until the opponent does something dumb and then you do an appropriate combo starter (Dair, grab, Uair, dash attack) and try to do a big combo after?

Yea, it's a lot of camp and wait for a combo opportunity. Dairs are really hard to land unless you get some good reads. Uairs hitbox is huuuge, so it's actually a viable approach (you can DJC uair while moving forward such that the uair hits close to the ground - pretty sexy); and at low to mid percents it combos (in some cases pseudo combos) into nair, another uair, bair, so on.

Ness's DD is definitely legit, especially if you DD into DJC'ed bairs/fairs <-- can throw off your opponent's spacing massively. Actually, something that I've been messing around with lately ... if you jump backwards while facing your opponent and DJC fair using the analog stick (not the c-stick), you get a huge momentum boost forward. It's so easy to do, too. ^_^

I don't dash attack much, honestly, because it can be unreliable (and often CCable ). The only thing dash attack really sets up, anyway, is bair, and I'd rather just space a well timed DJC'ed bair then face the risk of botching a dash attack.

Dthrow has like, crazy unexplored potential. In fact, all of Ness's grabs are freaking good. Uthrow, obviously, rocks on FFer's. It's hard to follow up if they DI, buuuut you can tech chase with it, occasionally run into a DJC uair and catch them before they hit the ground, or wavedash > utilt

Dthrow at low percents can sometimes lead to a missed tech for like Roy, Falcon, etc. You can wavedash > jab reset them. ^_^ If you happen to have dthrown them close to the ledge, your jab reset should be followed up with an fthrow and edgeguard, even at low percents due to fthrow's set knockback *evil laughter*. Go for a dair spike every once in a while. This is especially **** against my roommate who plays Roy. I gimp him all the time like this bahaha.

I find Ness's fast and long wavedash better for spacing and tech chasing in many cases. For spacing, it's really nice wavedashing backward > fsmash or wavedashing forward > ftilt. Really practical and can be used to interrupt momentum, etc.

 

[thesage]

Third hit of dash attack isn't cc'able.

U-throw on ff'ers should not be leading into tech chases. It should lead into uair or another u-throw. D-throw is for tech chasing those characters.

Ac Dair can be used to approach.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yea third hit can't be cc'ed. But the first two can. And if you space the move so that only the third hit connects, it's still a bit slow for someone to not catch on and shield grab it.

U-throw at low low percents can be hard to combo into uthrow with (or even regrab) if they get the DI, and you don't react uber fast. Dthrow is good for tech chasing, yes.

Dair oos rocks. Also, wavedash into ac dair looks sexy and has god combo potential when it hits. Plus, it can't be cc'ed.

 

[toasty]

Actually, something that I've been messing around with lately ... if you jump backwards while facing your opponent and DJC fair using the analog stick (not the c-stick), you get a huge momentum boost forward. It's so easy to do, too. ^_^

you can do this with other aerials too...it's called Swing Jumping. SO good!!! Swing jump dair is also really good for tech chasing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk0HWAp6Vz8#t=0m28s

I like where this thread is going.

OH I forgot to mention.

I'm a huge huge huge idiot. And a shame of a "good" Ness player because I didn't know this.

Sure, I knew that if you landed during the dair before hitbox came out, it autocancels and you can do whatever [like Simna's patented "oh lemme fake-dair your shield and then utilt before you can grab me!.....except you, Sheik "]


But what I DIDN'T know until I did it accidentally 5 or 6 days ago was...welll crap I didn't know about SH-AC-Dair ;__; like...the one where the attack actually comes out and it still ACs.

>_<


I'm a failure.


BUT hey. I was doing sexy stuff to this Fox at zero/low percent:

SH-AC-Dair -> utilt [immediately! sends them nowhere so they land] -> jab reset -> SH-AC-Dair again and then:

(with no DI...though a few may work if they DI)
-grab -> ****
-DJC-uair -> ****
-DJC-nair -> wavedash [if necessary] -> jab reset again -> tech chase (dash attack is good when spaced for the third hit, but that's a big commitment)
-DJC-nair -> JC-grab [when people get hit with a fast combo and they're not 100% sure what to do, if they manage to tech or land on their feet, they'll almost always put their shield up...unless they're hella confident that they can just shine you >_<]

(with DI)
-BAAAAAAAAAAAAT! ^_^

 

[thesage]

sh dair to bat is the best combo ever. Treat Ness' dair like CF's and it's cool lol.

 

[toasty]

hehehe yes

oh and the point I was trying to illustrate is that at low % on FFers, Ness's utilt has considerably less knockback than his dair, so it sets up for jab resets/tech chases more often than not. And the utilt comes out extremely quickly and will usually catch the FFer after the SH-AC-dair




gah. wow I still can't believe I didn't know about this.


Any time I saw posts about AC-Dair I assumed they meant the fake-out where the hitbox doesn't come out.

And any time I saw posts about it for a combo starter or something, I just thought they were theorizing and were wrong and they didn't know that the AC-Dair had no hitbox.

Ugh.

>_<

But now I know! And I'm going to abuse it.

Also: I'm teaming with N64's Pikachu at Revival of Melee next week!!!

Wish us luck!

 

[ChivalRuse]

At low percent on Fox: AC dair > AC dair > jab reset > AC dair > uair ****. ^_^

The problem is getting the first dair.

I have a couple of methods of landing a dair on a fastfaller.

1. Out of shield, like Falcon.
2. Uthrow > AC dair > jab reset > AC dair.
3. Dthrow > wavedash jab reset > dair. Really unreliable though.
4. Hit with back of upsmash at like 35+ percent > dair the missed tech behind you.

When you start dairing missed techs/techs in place like Falcon, you know you're sexy.

 

[toasty]

*aims to get sexy*

 

[ChivalRuse]

^_^

10sexies

 

[thesage]

Dair's only problem is that it comes out in like 20 frames. Lolwtf.

It came out in like 4 in 64....

 

[#HBC | Mac]

toasty, we must play at RoM

 

[toasty]

oh **** I forgot to ask you:

ommmg are we really staying in the same room?!?! Ness dittos shall surely commence!!! As will Ness discussion!!! I can't wait! =D

 

[Deleted member]

IMO...avoid peach sheik falco in that order. everyone else is doable, liberally speaking.

 

[thesage]

I still think Marth is worse than those. W/e I'd play shiek vs. him anyways so =/

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah Marth's tough. I'd say those four characters are equally difficult, though.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

why is ness pika even? imo pika def has the advantage. uair is too gay.

sheik is also way harder then marth. the cg is too devastating and getting around marth's range isn't as hard as people make it out to be. Very similar to other marth match ups against characters with not much range, like doc.

I also think falco is a harder match up then fox.

 

[thesage]

IDK anything about that matchup. Played 1 good pika who far outskilled me lol.

Shouldn't Ness be able to fair spam?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Shouldn't Ness be able to fair spam?

I don't think Ness's fair lends itself much to spam. Pikachu should be able to CC and punish it. If you throw it out haphazardly, he can just nair you, and you'll eat a combo.

 

[thesage]

You should never be using fair against ground opponents or just throwing any move out haphazardly at all lol, so that point is kinda irrelevant.

What does Pichu cc with? D-smash is di-able... Shouldn't f-smash be too slow?

IDK anything about pika so =/

 

[ChivalRuse]

CC upsmash probably works. CC dtilt also gives Pikachu a frame advantage.

 

[thesage]

I forgot about those moves lol.

Ask toasty, he plays both characters lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I thought Ness was good at combos vs Pika. D-throw dash attack works on him and U-throw Fair works at like 0 if he DIs away/no DI and DI behind combos Bair I think.

I dunno how you do anything else with Ness though. All I do is try to throw combo or F-throw gimp.

 

[thesage]

Uair also combos him nicely.