Ness Matchup Discussion - Fox

[Noa.]

Fox

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Art Credit goes to Tchukart

0: Even

Frame Data ( Hitbox comes out on frame: )
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Move|Ness|Fox
Jab|3|2
Dash Attack|8|4
Ftilt|7|6
Utilt|7|3
Dtilt|3|7
Fsmash|21|13
Usmash|6|8
Dsmash|10|6
Nair|5|4
Fair|8|7
Bair|10|9
Uair|8|9
Dair|20|5
Grab|6|6
Dash Grab|8|10
Pivot Grab|10|11

General Stats
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Attribute|Ness|Rosalina
Weight|30th (94)|43rd (79)
Dash Speed|40th (1.46)|4th (2.184)
Walk Speed|47th (.8635)|3rd (1.45)
Air Speed|31st (.9588)|21st (1.04)
Fall Speed|42nd (1.31)|1st (3.28)

Bthrow Kill Percent​

Closest|Middle|Farthest|Mean
84|117|139|113.333

Videos

Shaky vs Megafox

Shaky vs Megafox

FOW vs SK92​

 

[SlamShady]

In my opinion, this is one of the most volatile matchups for Ness. Both characters excel at racking up damage and have solid kill setups on each other. At least in my experience, momentum can shift very quickly and I would argue that the match can be divided into two unique halves. Fox wins the first half of stocks, but Ness will be the one shining once you both near kill percent, since your options can kill much earlier and Ness destroys offstage Fox.

In terms of the neutral, I would say Fox has the slight edge here. Although he can't mindlessly spam laser due to the threat of PSI Magnet, Fox has an easier time approaching than Ness does here and gets more damage off his combos, which is an unusual reversal for Ness.

D-throw against Fox doesn't lead to followups quite like it does for most other characters, and often times you'll be lucky to get a fair in, granted the Fox knows how to DI properly. PK Fire is riskier than normal, due to Fox's absurd ground speed and punish game, and Fox's ability to reflect the fire with shine. Surprisingly, Ness can get some surprisingly solid damage out of utilt strings at low percent due to his incredibly fast-falling tendencies. Uair strings are also useful against the critter at low to mid percents for the same reason, although one must always watch out for his lightning quick nair. In terms of ground game, you won't want to throw out too many moves since you will be outprioritized by nearly everything, but jab is a wonderful option as an option to get Fox off of you when he has gotten in too close.

In general, Foxes will often fish for utilts to start combos and quickly rack up damage at low percent, and some may start landing with dairs and nairs. His dash attack can lead to several varying aerial strings or tilts depending on the percent and skill of the player, and I believe it comes out on frame 4, which is why some Foxes are used to overusing it. At mid percent, be wary of ftilt, because if you are not prepared to tech, Fox can start his terrifying up smashes. In general, because of his speed, Fox can pressure Ness up close and will out prioritize him on the ground, so challenge him with aerials like nair if he starts to overextend his strings and for quick punishes. Although infinite jabs are no longer a thing, make sure to respect his jab because it can lead into dash attack among other things.

Once the characters near kill percent, Foxes will often start to look for ways to finish you off with uairs reads or using landing aerial setups into usmash, but other then that, his kill options are pretty linear in comparison, and often kill a good 20-30 percent later than Ness' will. In particular, back throw will finish him off ridiculously early if he fishes for unsafe aerials on shield looking for the kill himself or is too keen on using dash attack, which is partially why shielding becomes essential late game. Uair is also a nice option to kill Fox with a good read, especially with landing uairs due to their low risk in landing lag on and the massively disjointed range. Down smash and PK Thunder pressure become your best friend once you get Fox off stage, which is where the matchup can quickly turn around in our favor. PK Thunder can juggle Fox off stage while making it difficult for him to find a safe opportunity to side b onto stage, which is the more used recovery against us for whatever reason. If he starts using shine, mixup the PK Thunder while maintaining consistent pressure off stage until he commits. And when he does commit, throw out the down smash with the stronger back part facing offstage, which will catch him unless he sweetspots perfectly under the edge or if he recovers really high (which is an another awful situation for them) and he will die really early. If you're feeling really greedy, and get a good read, this is one of the few times you MIGHT consider going for a well-spaced PK Fire, which can sometimes net you a super early KO if they land close after you hit 'em with a juicy fsmash, (helped me kill with rage around 40 some percent before) but I would only recommend that strategy in dire times. If the Fox goes for the firefox, depending on the timing or location, it can actually be much harder for Ness to punish in comparison, but the move can be beaten out by well spaced nairs and bairs, (also like the side b) although pay attention to the disjointed fire hitbox.

For the most part, overshielding is your friend here, since Fox gets very little mileage off his throws at higher percents, and has to rely on decent reads to net the KO in the air. However, if he overcommits in the air or misses, an uair or even a nair will often send him back to space. OOS nair is extremely helpful at scaring Fox from putting too much pressure on your shield as well, so make sure to have that ready in your arsenal.

All in all, my opinions on the matchup have changed a lot over time, but I would say it is fairly even overall, though each character notably excels over the other in two very different halfs, although momentum shifts can go a long way in this matchup. If a character DOES win the matchup, I would argue it would be Ness, but isn't by a very significant margin. So either 0, or +1 at best, at least from my experience against several qualified mid-tier Foxes and Ksev.

 

[yoshi8984]

Smashboards I am never trusting you to save drafts again x.x

==

I have 2 video examples I will be using.

Vs. Tanark (3DS, I believe the 1.0.4 patch? He still had Double Jab and Ness still had laggy magnet lol)
Vs. Guard (Wii U, 1.1.0)

I'll primarily be linking examples of what I mean vs Guard (any clickable text should auto bring you to the timestamp I put in and generally lasts a few seconds, but I may specify intervals), vs Tanark is pretty short so it's much more easier for me to reference that lol

==

In neutral, Fox can get in your face pretty well, AND can reset the situation back to neutral with midair Illusions (Fox can act FAST outta mid air Illusions, it's usually best to not try and punish it unless you're in range to say Dash Attack). Meanwhile, PKF is not too great of an option here (but use it if you see the opportunity or get a solid read). Fox can escape it fairly easily AND can Jab you through it if you try to dash grab/F-Smash him (but you can still get the grab or F-Smash with proper spacing. The key for Fox is to overwhelm Ness with his speed and combos, along with conditioning and tomahawking VERY well, because Ness punishes HARD; Fox can and will die early if you aren't careful. Anytime he overcommits (i.e. accidental flurry of Jabs like with Tanark) or you read something, PUNISH it. I don't think Fox's blaster is worth using in this MU due to the Magnet and that the endlag is non-existent, plus Ness can duck under Fox's laser (until Ness starts moving his head around). Ness simply can't keep up with Fox's speed, but honestly, you can play pretty aggro (I usually go aggro anyway) OR await for Fox to approach if you have the lead. Your Nair is a great friend here!

However, if you're at KO percent, DON'T be afraid to sit in your shield. Fox lacks the range and tools to safely pressure your shield and if he grabs you it's not the end of the world since he lacks a solid KO throw. You HAVE to abuse Nair OoS here! Bair is also a fairly good approach tool since it's usually safe (unless powershielded) and can set up for a grab! Also as a reminder, make sure you shield ALL hits of Dair and release at the right moment... Or you'll likely get U-Smashed lol.

==

Juggling/comboing DEFINITELY goes to Ness. But first, let's speak of Fox's juggles. As stated before, he wants to overwhelm you with speed to get them in. He has his infamous U-Tilt Strings, now you gotta play Rock-Paper-Scissors here: you have to either retract (I believe in front of him, but beware cause you may get grabbed or F-Smashed either way, sometimes behind can work, MIX IT UP), OR try to Nair. If Fox shields the Nair, he'll repeat the U-Tilts, but if he tried another one and you Nair'd, you'll get out. His setup for said string can come from a midair Illusion, a Nair/Dair > Dash Attack > U-Tilt as well and can get you up into the air with Nair > Dash Attack > Fair. He's also got an F-Tilt lock (23:04 - 23:11) that does some good damage. HOWEVER, Fox has to make harder and more reads to get the damage on Ness (go to 5:56 - 6:05), which gives about 50% and that's not too bad lol. But... compare that to Ness who always hits hard (go to 10:04 - 10:19) and gets MASSIVE reward for reads on Fox (9:45 - 9:55), Ness can prove to be scary for Fox. Also I will disagree with @ SlamShady regarding the D-Throw follow-ups, you can get a pseudo-chaingrab (watch vs Tanark), and still get some solid things in. As shown here (5:21 - 5:26), and here (13:23 - 13:31).

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With edgeguarding and recovery, that is also in Ness' favor. THIS WHAT EDGEGUARDING FOX IS LIKE LOL

Ok seriously speaking though, Ness can deny Fox from recovering high and going to the ledge with PKT and tailwhipping (AND PLEASE, LEARN TAILWHIPPING!) and Nair. If you send PKT, he can Shine it, yes, BUT he's usually holding it longer than he wants to, therefore sending him lower. Tailwhipping actually bypasses Fox's Shine and you can combo it into the head. If it does get reflected (and it doesn't hit you), you're usually fine regardless. You can tailwhip into the head of PKT and continue. If Fox is about to be on level with the ledge, be sure to either jump out and Nair OR send PKT and go for tailwhips! If Fox is BELOW ledge level, run off and Bair/Nair the Fire Fox. I use Nair if he's going at about a 45 degree angle OR if I'm already on the ledge and he's directly below me. If he has to go straight up I go for Bair. Also Fox MUST be wary of how Ness recovers. I LOVE doing ledge PKTs and Fox can get caught by the tail and dragged offstage if he in't wary enough.

ALSO, our Fair can drag Fox down just like his does... It's esp. neat if you trade with Illusion.

Go to 13:08 - 13:14 to see most of what I mean. ;P

Fox on the other hand... Really has to be frame perfect to challenge Ness' recovery, but it's usually not even worth doing so and is just better off respecting PKT2. As you can see against Tanark, he DID hit me out of PKT2 with Bair, but when he tried it again, he did get hit and it was pretty dangerous to do. So instead, Fox is much better off punishing ledge get ups with reads (usually his F-Smash is a solid tool to cover ledge roll/getup/attack, Bair for jumps), and we can get D-Smashed if we regrab after a ledge trump (but Ness can do the same should he get one).
And if you ever get Fair spiked by him... Just ruin his soul with a tailwhip and get a stock reset. ;P

SERIOUSLY DON'T CHALLENGE NESS' RECOVERY AS FOX LOL

==

For KOing, Fox has a few of them. There's his famous U-Smash, AND watch out for Nair (sourspot), Double Jab and Dair... They can set up for the U-Smash. ALSO, if you PKT2 his shield (lol) OR mis-space a Uair as he shields on a platform, he can punish with U-Smash. Aside from that, he's got Bair and Uair, AND midair Illusions can setup for that (he can jump into the Bair/Uair), so AIRDODGE if you've been hit by one. D-Smash can punish rolls and get you out of a ledge trump and F-Smash as well. HOWEVER, like I said, don't be afraid to hide in shield if you're at KO percent.

With Ness on the other hand, Fox has to watch out for many of his options. B-Throw is the way to KO if Fox ever over commits (usually if he gets the flurry of Jabs shielded or whiffs a grab/U-Smash) OR you read a landing (usually with a pivot grab). Bair and Uair work wonders as well (falling Uair <3). Nair is a borderline KO option, but with its overall utility, it might be a biiiit stale. HOWEVER, it can still KO at decent percents and even then it can set up Fox at a nasty angle and gimp him. D-Smash is an option out of a ledge trump should you get one. F-Smash can work out of a PKF read but I wouldn't count on it since you can get Jabbed. However, you can get a SUPER early KO with the bat. U-Tilt is a neat surprise if Fox is above you and Fair, PKT, and Dair (lol) can be for gimping/edgeguarding.

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In terms of stages... Even though I REALLY love Delfino, I wouldn't go there against Fox since one of the upper hands we have against Fox is edgeguarding, and he doesn't threaten our recovery without high risk (and therefore he can't really take advantage of one of Ness' big weaknesses). Delfino does take away that aspect so I'm not as comfy as I'd love to be there lol. I know some Foxes love T&C and the ceiling IS fairly low and I'm just not comfy there lol, so I strike it. Lylat is something both characters hate (but I can bear with it), so I wouldn't waste a ban on it. Instead, I'd probs ban Halberd and Dreamland (no love for Kirby stages lmao). The ceilings are pretty low (there his U-Smash KOs earlier) and with Dreamland, Fox maneuvers around it pretty well I find, and I don't like huge horizontal blastzones for Ness.

I would probs CP Duck Hunt b/c the short horizontal blastzones are wonderful for Ness with his aerials and throws, along with the high ceiling so Fox has a harder time KOing with U-Smash. I just make sure I avoid going in the trees though lol.

I'm a Ness that loves platforms though, so I generally like Battlefield and Smashville is cool with me as well. FD I'm a bit less comfy on (but still doable). T&C I'm not, but Lylat I can actually bare with lol.

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FINAL VERDICT: Fox has the tools in neutral to overwhelm Ness and combo him along with his ability to reset back to neutral easily with Illusion, but due to his inability to deal with shields and provide pressure on them safely and being such a featherweight character, Ness makes Fox PAY for mistakes and hits hard. His recovery is not threatened by Fox (one of Ness' main weaknesses) while we can threaten his pretty easily. I'll say this MU is around 55:45, but no more than 60:40 Ness' favor. And thus concludes my write up on my fave MU.

(I might go back and add video examples for Ness' KO options and get some KO percents tho lol)

Edit 1: For some reason I said "wait for Fox to approach if he has the lead". My bad there lol.