Ness is considered to be top tier?

[AuraWielder]

From comments I've been seeing around GameFAQs and Smashboards, a lot of people, even pros, are considering Ness to be top or high tier. That's a huge jump compared to the previous games. I'm glad that Ness is so much better myself, since I mained him since Melee.
But can someone explain to me just why Ness is being considered top/high tier by the pros? I love him myself, but I feel like he's more mid-tier than top or high.

Even Zero made this Twitter post:
https://twitter.com/zerossb/status/540076301701226496

 

[MuddyMan]

Back Throw kills early, is good at racking up damage, good overall kill options, decent edge guarding with PK thunder. This is at least what i have seen and what others say.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness has had a bunch of his old problems resolved and has a high skill ceiling, since his entire metagame revolves around PKT mindgames and trickery.
Thanks to the new ledge mechanics and PKT invulnerability frames, his recovery isn't an outright death sentence anymore. (Why he struggled to climb the tier lists before.)

He's an unpopularly hard character to master, so he doesn't get a lot of representation in tournaments, a keystone component in the construction of a tier list.
(After all, if Ness is much more difficult to play than Diddy, and doesn't do much better, people aren't going to invest in practicing with him.)

Ness' back throw has always been the best in the game. He's never had bad KO options. He has always had very high damage output with several instant KO options from dair meteors to PKT2 to PK Flash.
These didn't suddenly come into play, carrying him to to the top. He's doing better because some of his crippling problems have been fixed.
Due to the new shield mechanics, the metagame of SSB4 is highly defensive. This benefits characters with good grabs and follow-ups.
In Brawl, Ness/Lucas were broken and unable to be used competitively without the risk of perfect chaingrabs thanks to their grab-release animation.
If not for this problem, he would have been more viable in tournament environments. The second delay on grabs ironically saved a grab-heavy character.

 

[Ninjagamer1234]

I think that Ness is definitely Top/High Tier, his attacks are devastating ,his air game is god like and his d-throw combos can really rack up the percent

 

[Tikao]

Ness himself recieved quite some buffs and nerfes, BUT a lot of passive buffs, changes to the game itself (ledgegrab mechanic, airdodge landing lag) and changes to other characters (no chaingrabs and less killthrows make his grabgame even better in compairison, range overall getting nerfed which was always great to have against ness)

tl;dr Ness isn't actually buffed himself, but better in compairison because of passive buffs, making him a better character in this game and in compairison

 

[j3lly]

I doubt it and I don't understand why anyone would believe so. Like many of you I've been playing with Ness for over a decade and a lot of his weaknesses still remain:

-Poor tilts
-Poor approach options since a good player will adapt to PKT2
-Bad range
-Gimmick recovery
-REALLY hard counters
-Gets outcamped easily by better projectiles forcing him to be aggressive (see point 2)

Project M gave Ness players a godsend by having PK Fire activate on shields. I was foolishly hoping SSB4 would give us that as well. With all that being said I believe Ness will be solidly placed in the Mid-Tiers.

 

[Earthbound360]

I doubt it and I don't understand why anyone would believe so. Like many of you I've been playing with Ness for over a decade and a lot of his weaknesses still remain:

-Poor tilts
-Poor approach options since a good player will adapt to PKT2
-Bad range
-Gimmick recovery
-REALLY hard counters
-Gets outcamped easily by better projectiles forcing him to be aggressive (see point 2)

Project M gave Ness players a godsend by having PK Fire activate on shields. I was foolishly hoping SSB4 would give us that as well. With all that being said I believe Ness will be solidly placed in the Mid-Tiers.

I was under this impression too for a while, until you realize that the global changes to the game heavily alleviated a lot of those issues, in addition to a few straight up buffs.

Having poor tilts isn't really a flaw in a character. Most characters have moves they will use less, those just happen to be mapped to Ness' tilts. He makes up for it by having the best grab game out of just about everyone, and amazing aerials to boot.

As for approach, I think that Ness' approach still isn't that good, but a few other characters had their approaches gutted too, like Falco and Marth.

Bad range is a big thing that got helped in this game. Ness may still have mediocre range, but a LOT of ranged characters were screwed over. Sword characters in particular. What also helps is that these sword characters were problem matchups before, and are much more manageable now.

Gimmick recovery was buffed, by a lot. Ness can wallbounce recover now and his PKT pierces early on.

Ness has no really REALLY hard counters in this game from what I've felt so far. Worst IMO is probably Sonic.

Projectile camping may be an issue still as well, but so far, I don't think any projectile heavy characters are placing particularly well in torunaments. If they're not too frequent, then it'll hurt Ness' tier placement less.

 

[Mysteltainn]

Ness is going to be much better off in this game compared to previous versions simply because he was indirectly buffed due to edge-guarding mechanic changes. On top of that, he has also received some notable buffs (although a few nerfs as well) that help him even further. D-Throw to F-Air, although generic, is basically a true combo on quite a number of characters, and can be used 2-3 times if timed right, which is a huge deal. He has a great Dash Attack, has a few notable skills that have high priority like N-Air (cancelling landing lag of Air Dodges with N-Air makes it even better to short hop with), and he has a number of mind-game options with PSI Thunder.

Some of Ness' drawbacks such as range still remain, but there has been a global nerf on range as well if you really think about it. Just look at what happened to Meta Knight and Marth... Ness has got it pretty good in my opinion.

There doesn't seem to be any game-breaking gimmicks that hinder him like there was in Brawl (Grab-Release), and we don't know how bad projectile campers will be once the meta evolves, but Ness is in a pretty good place I'd say; he's definitely in his prime in Smash 4.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness made a blood sacrifice.

He disposed of his tilts, an aerial, a special, his recovery distance, and access to variety in exchange for gilding what remained.

Never before has Ness been capable of so little, and has so little been so effective.

Many players have quickly learned not to contest his recovery unless they're CERTAIN they can. Between the invincible PKT frames and the invincible PKT2 frames, along with the critical knockback, attempting to contest his recovery without a ranged windbox is a dice throw.

 

[Klaxon]

I'm just grateful that he's actually USABLE now! Without terrible grab release frames, a (slightly) buffed recovery, and amazing combo/kill potential, our time has come!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Nair and fair are amazing spacing tools. PKT edgeguarding is free damage and easy. PK hits more often than you would think. D-throw to triple fair is on par with the best comboing characters (Diddy/Sheik).

 

[AuraWielder]

OK, I am just decimating Wii U For Glory with Ness.
He really is amazing. Using the Wii U Pro Controller also lets me use Ness FAR better than in 3DS as well.

 

[Pazzo.]

Best Ness since 64.

 

[AuraWielder]

Yeah, Ness doesn't have his problems with Marth/Lucina because of their sword's range being nerfed.
However, Shulk is definitely one of Ness's harder matchups.

 

[Lochy]

Ness made a blood sacrifice.

He disposed of his tilts, an aerial, a special, his recovery distance, and access to variety in exchange for gilding what remained.

Never before has Ness been capable of so little, and has so little been so effective.

Many players have quickly learned not to contest his recovery unless they're CERTAIN they can. Between the invincible PKT frames and the invincible PKT2 frames, along with the critical knockback, attempting to contest his recovery without a ranged windbox is a dice throw.

Ness real sacrifice was Lucas that's why he isn't on the smash bros roster

 

[Lochy]

The only thing ness really needs is his Dair back. If it was better I would use it more. But when you do hit it its so satisfying!

 

[Uffe]

Back in Melee and Brawl, it was a struggle to get good with Ness. I still struggle with him in 3DSmash. I can't say I do in Smash U, because I don't have that one. But him being top tier, if that is considered true, I have to especially work hard. I think it's safe to say that all the characters this time around are viable, so even if Ness is top tier, other characters can still beat him. Of course, going back to what I was saying about struggling, I see NAKAT, FOW, Shamrock7, and Awestin doing really good with him, so why can't I? I can, it's just going to take a lot of work getting there, even though he's considered "top tier".

 

[Basherton]

Yeah, Ness doesn't have his problems with Marth/Lucina because of their sword's range being nerfed.
However, Shulk is definitely one of Ness's harder matchups.

I honestly have a big problem with Rosalina and Luma because Luma can sheild my PKF but I have no other dificult matchups. Little Mac is my favorite matchup because Ness' throw power makes his recovery useless when Mac is over 50%.

 

[Earthbound360]

I honestly have a big problem with Rosalina and Luma because Luma can sheild my PKF but I have no other dificult matchups. Little Mac is my favorite matchup because Ness' throw power makes his recovery useless when Mac is over 50%.

Wha? Luma can't shield anything.

 

[PKBeam]

they mean shielding rosa from PKF.

 

[Basherton]

Wha? Luma can't shield anything.

they mean shielding rosa from PKF.

Sorry I mean I keep hitting Luma when its in front of Rosalina so I can't grab Rosa.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ah yes, but since Luma can't shield, he'll always make PKF burst, putting a wall up for you automatically. It's still a little dangerous because Rosy can smack you while you're still recovering from the move, but it's got a little bit of a plus.

 

[Noa.]

I think pk Fire against Rosalina is wonderful if it can hit luma. Luna dies so quickly cause a full duration of Fire does so much damage

 

[Uffe]

Her down B is stupid. It needs some lag time on it so it can't be abused the way it is, or be like Fox's Reflector or Ness' PSI Magnet where letting go of it creates lag.

 

[Noa.]

I disagree. The thing about Rosalina's down b is that it just makes projectiles disappear. She doesn't reflect them, nor does it absorb them to heal her or charge up some kind of attack. If it had any more endlag it would be one of the worst moves in the game. It already has no hitbox. It's only purpose it to delete projectiles. I think they should maybe decrease the size a bit but that's all.

 

[Basherton]

I disagree. The thing about Rosalina's down b is that it just makes projectiles disappear. She doesn't reflect them, nor does it absorb them to heal her or charge up some kind of attack. If it had any more endlag it would be one of the worst moves in the game. It already has no hitbox. It's only purpose it to delete projectiles. I think they should maybe decrease the size a bit but that's all.

I never said anything about this move being a nusense I just said its hard to get Rosalina in my PKF and that I usually just get Luma.

 

[Noa.]

I never said anything about this move being a nusense I just said its hard to get Rosalina in my PKF and that I usually just get Luma.

That post wasn't to you. It was to Uffe.

And it's spelled nuisance. :V

 

[PMMikey]

Ness has always been a favorite of mine. He definitely has gotten better from before he feels easier to use and his combos are God

 

[Diddy Kong]

The only thing ness really needs is his Dair back. If it was better I would use it more. But when you do hit it its so satisfying!

I would prefer his B Air back honestly.

 

[PMMikey]

His uair is so good once they're up

 

[Mysteltainn]

U-Air is incredibly deadly when used in combination with some F-Airs after a D-Throw combo, and kills at surprising percentages when fresh.

 

[Luco]

I would prefer his B Air back honestly.

Whatcha mean diddy? Ness' Bair has pretty much literally the same power it did in Brawl except now its sweetspot doesn't stop the game for a few milliseconds now.

Also @ AuraWielder it turns out that Marth's range has actually been buffed and I have no freakin' clue how we beat out his range with Fair but somehow we do lawl! In any case, it turns out Shulk is okay because their game pretty much revolves around the SH so you can often psych them out by running in and SH Fair/Nair and then kinda get in on them. They can be troublesome though I agree. :3

 

[L9999]

The only thing ness really needs is his Dair back. If it was better I would use it more. But when you do hit it its so satisfying!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=632599286862894

There you go, Dair works at something.

 

[PKBeam]

yeah, it works at stuffing up Facebook videos

 

[Watchful_Eye]

Even though Earthbound360 showed me Ness potential ^^, I still do not think he is better than higher mid. That is good already, but to be even better he still would need more range on the ground, more overall speed and a less gimpable recovery, I guess. But it is fine as it is, he is just as well-balanced as all characters should be

People tend to overrate their own characters because they know their own characters' potential better then of the other ones.

 

[Noa.]

Even though Earthbound360 showed me Ness potential ^^, I still do not think he is better than higher mid. That is good already, but to be even better he still would need more range on the ground, more overall speed and a less gimpable recovery, I guess. But it is fine as it is, he is just as well-balanced as all characters should be

People tend to overrate their own characters because they know their own characters' potential better then of the other ones.

I don't want to sound elitist, but after you've gone to a few tournaments it becomes obvious that Ness is high tier. Even top tier really. Ness has incredibly potent tools, and has no awful matchups.

 

[Luco]

People tend to overrate their own characters because they know their own characters' potential better then of the other ones.

That's fine; except non-ness mains often put him higher on their tier lists than we do. I've seen Ness as high as 4th on at least 2 tier lists by two different, very respectable members of the community (I can't remember one, but I know Shaya is the other), and most have him between 5th to 8th on their tier lists. Like Draconoa, I don't want to sound like I'm over-rating my character, but this one time, it's actually legit... Ness is pretty godly. <3

 

[AuraWielder]

That's fine; except non-ness mains often put him higher on their tier lists than we do. I've seen Ness as high as 4th on at least 2 tier lists by two different, very respectable members of the community (I can't remember one, but I know Shaya is the other), and most have him between 5th to 8th on their tier lists. Like Draconoa, I don't want to sound like I'm over-rating my character, but this one time, it's actually legit... Ness is pretty godly. <3

Wow, that's honestly pretty amazing. Can you link me to these lists?

 

[THERyanP7]

I'm a Ness main and I love using him but I really don't understand how he could be rated so high I guess I'm going off PM Ness comparisons but he has good moves but there is alot of characters with better options! Rosa, ZSS, Sheik, Yoshi, Diddy, Greninja, Sonic, are characters that can beat Ness with barely any skill from the player! And honestly Mario and Rosa are straight up Ness killers! Ness is extremely gimpable and has alot more landing and move lag than most character's! I consider myself pretty good at smash with Ness and I can't see how people think he's so "Godlike" higher tier characters require the least amount of work to be good with and Ness is not easy to just pick up and be good with! I'm tired of people saying my main is top tier it takes alot of work to get good with him

 

[Noa.]

I'm a Ness main and I love using him but I really don't understand how he could be rated so high I guess I'm going off PM Ness comparisons but he has good moves but there is alot of characters with better options! Rosa, ZSS, Sheik, Yoshi, Diddy, Greninja, Sonic, are characters that can beat Ness with barely any skill from the player! And honestly Mario and Rosa are straight up Ness killers! Ness is extremely gimpable and has alot more landing and move lag than most character's! I consider myself pretty good at smash with Ness and I can't see how people think he's so "Godlike" higher tier characters require the least amount of work to be good with and Ness is not easy to just pick up and be good with! I'm tired of people saying my main is top tier it takes alot of work to get good with him

It is a very scrubby mentality to accuse other players of playing characters that you think are easy to play. When you lose, you lost because you're bad, and if you win, you win because you're good. That's the kind of mentality you should have. You shouldn't get salty because you think someone is playing an easy character.

And to be honest, Ness is not difficult to play in this game. What I would consider hard for Ness is getting dthrow fair combos consistently, maneuvering pk thunder very effectively, and landing pk fires on hard reads. Those three aspects do require skill, whether it be technical or mental. Apart from that however, Ness is a pretty straight forward character. I would say that ZSS, Sheik, Pika, and Sonic are all other high tier characters that are harder to play than Ness. I will admit Diddy is incredibly brain dead and the easiest character to play. But Smash as a game does not require a very high amount of tech skill. It's a relatively easy game to pick up, and mechanically it's very easy to learn characters. The skill in smash comes from learning how your options compare to your opponents' options, recognizing the counter to the option your opponent is going to do, and being able to execute it in a very short time frame.

And Ness is most assuredly high tier, for now anyways. It's difficult to say what will happen in three or four years, but in this day and age, Ness is a very very strong character.