Media Ness Grab Range is Bad [Important]

Uffe

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#1
If you have social media or something, maybe to gain traction in hopes that Nintendo and Sakurai will fix both Ness' dash and standing grab range, that would be very helpful. I've been requesting this since the release of Ultimate, because I had noticed that Ness' grab range wasn't good like it was in the Wii U version. We don't need this being overlooked like Pac-Man's grab was overlooked in Sm4sh. Thanks.

 

Specs64z

Smash Journeyman
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#6
Grabs in Ultimate, especially standing grabs, are garbage in general. At least our grab is still really fast.

Also, Ness is blessed with great combos that confirm into grab so this issue is basically non-existent for Ness. I don’t think a single other character has the confirms we do (please correct me if I am wrong), so we should really be dead last in line for a grab range buff.

That said, yes please buff the range. The nerfs to grabs and throws from smash 4 to Ultimate was, imo, a bit of an overcorrection.
 

Uffe

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#7
a lot of characters have **** grab range in this game and it's likely intentional
Intentional or not, it's dumb. In this video, you can see Ness completely whiff grab against a big body character who is standing right next to him. This is a horrible decision for the creators to have happen. I've had similar situations happen when I went to grab Ike and/or Link, and because of Ness' bad grab range, I got grabbed by both Ike, and Link on different occasions without them even moving an inch towards me.

Grabs in Ultimate, especially standing grabs, are garbage in general. At least our grab is still really fast.

Also, Ness is blessed with great combos that confirm into grab so this issue is basically non-existent for Ness. I don’t think a single other character has the confirms we do (please correct me if I am wrong), so we should really be dead last in line for a grab range buff.

That said, yes please buff the range. The nerfs to grabs and throws from smash 4 to Ultimate was, imo, a bit of an overcorrection.
Combos into grabs are useless for Ness if the opponent is in shield or being evasive. The end lag on Ness' standing grab went from 35 → 38, and dash grab 43 → 46. I don't really consider that really fast. Ness' d-throw > fair only works on very few characters, so it's strange to me that they'd punish his grab from S4 to Ultimate. If you have any combos that are true you'd like to share that lead into grab, that would be helpful.
 

Specs64z

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#8
Combos into grabs are useless for Ness if the opponent is in shield or being evasive. The end lag on Ness' standing grab went from 35 → 38, and dash grab 43 → 46. I don't really consider that really fast. Ness' d-throw > fair only works on very few characters, so it's strange to me that they'd punish his grab from S4 to Ultimate. If you have any combos that are true you'd like to share that lead into grab, that would be helpful.
Drag down uair into grab is true. Drag down fair into grab is really good, but technically a string rather than a true combo. PSI magnet leads into imagination at any percent, so you can do PSI magnet -> drag down uair -> grab at back throw kill percents.
I meant fast as in start up frames. Standing is frame 6, dash is frame 9.
 

Nah

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#10
Intentional or not, it's dumb. In this video, you can see Ness completely whiff grab against a big body character who is standing right next to him. This is a horrible decision for the creators to have happen. I've had similar situations happen when I went to grab Ike and/or Link, and because of Ness' bad grab range, I got grabbed by both Ike, and Link on different occasions without them even moving an inch towards me.
It's definitely dumb, and this series has long had a issues where many hitboxes don't match the animation even remotely closely, but what I mean is that since it is intentional, raising awareness to try and get the devs to change something they did on purpose/for a reason (especially for a well-off character like Ness that still gets more reward off of grab than a lot of characters who used to) is likely futile.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
#12
But her problem isn't range, though. Only slow start-up, I thought?
It's honestly pretty iffy. Definitely below average, and it's probably the startup that adds insult to injury.
Seriously, just try dash grabbing. It literally gives me cancer.
 

Uffe

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#13
Yeah but it's pretty much true for every character so i'm not too mad about it.
But why have characters who whiff grab be punished for actually being next to the opponent, grabbing, and it not connecting like it should? I was right next to the Bowser in both instances and I was left open because of it. That's not OK, for Ness, or any other character.

It's definitely dumb, and this series has long had a issues where many hitboxes don't match the animation even remotely closely, but what I mean is that since it is intentional, raising awareness to try and get the devs to change something they did on purpose/for a reason (especially for a well-off character like Ness that still gets more reward off of grab than a lot of characters who used to) is likely futile.
A lot of things have been intentional, though. Lucina, and I believe even Marth's grab range have been fixed to properly connect in one of the previous patches. Donkey Kong's Donkey Punch whiffing because of the z-axis against a Yoshi who had his shield broken was fixed. Some jabs didn't connect properly until the last patch. Ness' jab used to connect the first two hits, but the kick would completely whiff. Cloud's Finishing Touch used to have a tiny hitbox, so they increased the size. Ness doesn't have any rewards off of grab other than b-throw, which people still seem to survive from. Down throw doesn't lead into any combos against most of the characters. I'm not going to give up on demanding change to fix a stupid flaw. Characters not being able to properly connect grab is an issue, and if a character is going to shield a lot, then the proper way of challenging it is with a grab. But what's the point if grab is bad?
 
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#14
A lot of things have been intentional, though. Lucina, and I believe even Marth's grab range have been fixed to properly connect in one of the previous patches. Donkey Kong's Donkey Punch whiffing because of the z-axis against a Yoshi who had his shield broken was fixed. Some jabs didn't connect properly until the last patch. Ness' jab used to connect the first two hits, but the kick would completely whiff. Cloud's Finishing Touch used to have a tiny hitbox, so they increased the size. Characters not being able to properly connect grab is an issue, and if a character is going to shield a lot, then the proper way of challenging it is with a grab. But what's the point if grab is bad?
Also, not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but in the most recent major patch they buffed Pikachu's grab range for literally no reason. I've been playing a lot with Bayonetta recently (now that she's not broken lol) and, man, her grab freaking FAILS. If you think Ness' is bad, just try getting a good enough shield punish with Bayonetta lmao. Just goes to show how much they still have to go in terms of game balancing :/

Also holy sh*t, I haven't been active on here in years lol
 
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Uffe

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#15
Nice to see that they didn't even fix this in the 4.0 patch. :glare: I'm going to find the flaws Ness has in this game and make a compilation video of it and upload it. I'm going round 2 and if they don't fix Ness' issues by the next patch, I'm going to be very upset.
 

Specs64z

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#16
Nice to see that they didn't even fix this in the 4.0 patch. :glare: I'm going to find the flaws Ness has in this game and make a compilation video of it and upload it. I'm going round 2 and if they don't fix Ness' issues by the next patch, I'm going to be very upset.
The grab probably isn't ever getting buffed. So many characters have nearly unusable standing grabs that it's clearly intentional that standing grab is super situational. That said, I agree it's lame that standing grabs are so laughably bad.
I've only noticed one critical problem with Ness that has actually cost me matches. Down smash often just whiffs on grounded opponents directly behind Ness. Other than that, I rarely feel limited by the character (obviously, everyone plays a little bit differently so this might just be a me thing).
 

Uffe

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#17
The grab probably isn't ever getting buffed. So many characters have nearly unusable standing grabs that it's clearly intentional that standing grab is super situational. That said, I agree it's lame that standing grabs are so laughably bad.
I've only noticed one critical problem with Ness that has actually cost me matches. Down smash often just whiffs on grounded opponents directly behind Ness. Other than that, I rarely feel limited by the character (obviously, everyone plays a little bit differently so this might just be a me thing).
Grabs in general should be fixed. I've gone for grabs against overly defensive opponents who put up their shield and have been punished for the whiff. To top it off, when Ness whiffs or misses grabbing his opponents, then he suffers because of the amount of end lag they threw on it. The majority of characters can't even combo off a grab, anyway. There are some characters who can be comboed because of their weight and/or size, but aside from that, if this intentionally bad grab range was created to prevent this sort of thing, then there really is no reason for making grab ranges bad. It's like if they made shield less reliable because zoners like Samus, Belmonts, or the Links rely on camping because their close quarter combat isn't as good.

Also, I plan on making a video of Ness' yo-yo not connecting on stage when hitting his opponents with it, because there have been instances where my opponent should have been dead, but they just plop right up and avoid death because the attack doesn't work like it should. Up tilt needs to actually match the PSI that comes out of Ness' hands as well. There have been times when I'd do a combo on DK and the up tilt would whiff the first time and connect the second time. These flaws need to be fixed and I'm really upset that Sakurai's dev team, Nintendo, or whoever is behind the balancing hasn't even bothered fixing this. I have tagged Sakurai and Nintendo of America this video in the original post months ago and even recently when the 4.0 patch was announced just to remind them. Still got nothing.
 

Mr Saturn Fanboy

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#21
I can't tell you how many times my grab should have connected when it didn't. I also can't tell you how many times I've been grabbed in midair while Ness doesn't seem to have that capability.
 
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