ness discussion

[MrMarbles]

.... I am well aware of ness's suckage. that being said, his spike is really effective and if you can get a grab off at low ishhh damage you can get a kill on many characters. if you play against a decent player though youre screwed

you pretty much summed it up

 

[Z-Rex]

...you might be able to get away with a djc uair and from there you can combo to death from 0%

This comment inspired some training mode research. I found one or two true 0-death combos, but the windows are super tight and that's with a ragdoll. Basically u-air > u-tilt > n-air - d-air. The hardest part was hitting kirbs from above with the n-air to send him diagonally downward. Otherwise Ness has to use his second jump to position for the spike which A) takes too long, breaking the combo and B) forces him to up-b recover.

Biggest takeaway: Ness can influence enemy trajectory depending on where the n-air hits. Hitting with weak (late) n-air sends them in a favorable position to d-air spike.

 

[MrMarbles]

This comment inspired some training mode research. I found one or two true 0-death combos, but the windows are super tight and that's with a ragdoll. Basically u-air > u-tilt > n-air - d-air. The hardest part was hitting kirbs from above with the n-air to send him diagonally downward. Otherwise Ness has to use his second jump to position for the spike which A) takes too long, breaking the combo and B) forces him to up-b recover.

Biggest takeaway: Ness can influence enemy trajectory depending on where the n-air hits.

sounds like what you are describing is ness's weak nair. if ness's nair stays out long enough it becomes weak and has less knockback. if it lands too soon u get the strong hitbox, and like u said it knocks him far enough that u have to use the double jump and it takes too long. So basically what i am saying is that it's not a matter of positioning the nair but actually timing of the nair. the nair has to be out for a good second or so to become weak. I went thru the same process as you where i thought you had to position the nair just right to make the combo work. once i found out the nair had to be out for awhile to become weak it became much easier

easier 0-death to practice: plug into port 2. practice mode ->dreamland. uair->uair->fair->fair->fair->dair. once u have your djc down this combo is pretty easy, especially on samus. if you find this combo hard to pull off as a true combo then u probably need to practice djc more

 

[Z-Rex]

sounds like what you are describing is ness's weak nair. if ness's nair stays out long enough it becomes weak and has less knockback. if it lands too soon u get the strong hitbox, and like u said it knocks him far enough that u have to use the double jump and it takes too long. So basically what i am saying is that it's not a matter of positioning the nair but actually timing of the nair. the nair has to be out for a good second or so to become weak. I went thru the same process as you where i thought you had to position the nair just right to make the combo work. once i found out the nair had to be out for awhile to become weak it became much easier

easier 0-death to practice: plug into port 2. practice mode ->dreamland. uair->uair->fair->fair->fair->dair. once u have your djc down this combo is pretty easy, especially on samus. if you find this combo hard to pull off as a true combo then u probably need to practice djc more

Damn, you're absolutely right. I edited my post to reflect the mistake. I will try that combo you mentioned.

 

[firo]

I played ness for all of the tourney at apex, and while he did well, especially against players who are unfamiliar with the matchup, I unsurprisingly got knocked out by two kirbys. While the match with Revan was close (2-1), tacos went kirby and it was a real beating.

I will most likely choose a different character when I know I'm up against a kirby. For me, this character will very likely be Link, as I also find him very fun to play.

Unfortunately none of my matches were recorded, as much as I tried to wait for recording setups we were low on time. But I've started working in some ness tech that I didn't do last year, which I plan to write up eventually.

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

Spoiler

I played ness for all of the tourney at apex, and while he did well, especially against players who are unfamiliar with the matchup, I unsurprisingly got knocked out by two kirbys. While the match with Revan was close (2-1), tacos went kirby and it was a real beating.

I will most likely choose a different character when I know I'm up against a kirby. For me, this character will very likely be Link, as I also find him very fun to play.

Unfortunately none of my matches were recorded, as much as I tried to wait for recording setups we were low on time. But I've started working in some ness tech that I didn't do last year, which I plan to write up eventually.

This is the very reason why I switch characters in online tourneys as well when facing a decent kirby. That uptilt just covers so many options that makes typical approaches pretty much moot. Throwing in pika fires every now and again against utilt spammers sometimes works but it's super risky.

Looking forward to the tech development!

 

[Yobolight]

Kirby just wrecks Ness so hard....

 

[Z-Rex]

I've had slightly better luck against Kirby recently by following this general plan:

1) Run the **** away

2) Attack from above

 

[Z-Rex]

What's the best way to DI Falcon up-air combos? Is it possible to escape them at all, or even just make to follow-ups more difficult?

 

[MrMarbles]

What's the best way to DI Falcon up-air combos? Is it possible to escape them at all, or even just make to follow-ups more difficult?

depends how good your di is and how good the falcon is at following up. id say the best thing is to just be unpredictable with the direction you di. Sometimes di behind falcon can get you out but if the falcon is prepared to follow your di it probably wont work

 

[Cedricwa]

I sometimes DI down so they can't get the up B or whatever at the end

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

If you're still at low percents and on Dreamland, you can DI down and try to land on a platform.

Otherwise,
*DI'ing down will allow for more uair hits which will surely lead to an upb kill, especially if the Falcon can fast fall uair.
*DI'ing up just means the Falcon can do the upB finisher faster, but at least it's not always a sure kill since you'll have less uair hits on you and therefore a generally lower % (and therefore less knockback).
*DI'ing away means the Falcon will follow you until you go over the stage in which case he'll upB or dair.
*DI'ing towards is most likely the safest bet if you're to DI in a single direction as it's somewhat harder for a Falcon to follow you if you're DI'ing behind them.

I mix it up and DI all over the place, lol.
That forces the Falcon to constantly readjust it's combo string increasing the chances of an error which you can use to attempt a counter or trade (anything to get them to back off a bit) or at the very least try to second jump/fall away. So @ MrMarbles is right, the best way to usually go about it is by being as unpredictable as you can.

This isn't just for Ness users either, any character who doesn't have a quick way to escape a combo (such as Pika's upB and Yoshi's second jump armor) will likely end up in the same scenario when caught in a Falcon uair string.

 

[MaHoh]

There's just something about Ness that is so charming to me.

 

[Kahnu]

thats...coool?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

thats...coool?

I just thought of your current avatar saying that and almost started laughing.

The only matchup I don't like, from a non-tier based perspective (as in I know why it is so hard to win) is Ness dittos.

I honestly hate them more than any matchup in the game, thoughts?

 

[Kahnu]

I just thought of your current avatar saying that and almost started laughing.

The only matchup I don't like, from a non-tier based perspective (as in I know why it is so hard to win) is Ness dittos.

I honestly hate them more than any matchup in the game, thoughts?

yeah its seriously not fun to play

better to play ness then to recieve ness

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It's like Yoshi dittos, with worse range and no DJC counters/shield tactics. It's just mehhhhh

 

[MrMarbles]

I just thought of your current avatar saying that and almost started laughing.

The only matchup I don't like, from a non-tier based perspective (as in I know why it is so hard to win) is Ness dittos.

I honestly hate them more than any matchup in the game, thoughts?

depends on the player you are up against, but if the person you are playing is actually trying to win its the worst matchup in the game (in terms of fun and skill required to win)

 

[The Star King]

depends on the player you are up against, but if the person you are playing is actually trying to win its the worst matchup in the game (in terms of fun and skill required to win)

Ness dittos are good in both fun and skill.

 

[MrMarbles]

Ness dittos are good in both fun and skill.

boo

 

[Deleted member]

that recovery tho :/

 

[Kahnu]

When I play as Ness, I always feel like I'm abandoning my beloved Kirby.

It's bad to abandon the only thing you have.

 

[DrPac]

Ness is one of two characters that I enjoy playing as in this. Something just makes him seem much smoother than other Smash 64 fighters. Which is weird, as I never really played as Ness all that much besides in Smash 64.

 

[rosetta_stoned]

I've read a few times over the interwebs about this "psi magnet ledge cancel" but only in a context that I'm already supposed to know wat this is and google has been no help. This is not something i've been doing nor quite understand. Someone care to give an actual detailed explanation or, better yet, link to a video that I can see it in action?

 

[MrMarbles]

I've read a few times over the interwebs about this "psi magnet ledge cancel" but only in a context that I'm already supposed to know wat this is and google has been no help. This is not something i've been doing nor quite understand. Someone care to give an actual detailed explanation or, better yet, link to a video that I can see it in action?

do you mean his down-b? basically if you are recovering from below the stage and you use your double jump to position yourself directly below the ledge you can you ness's down b to "snap" to the ledge a short distance

 

[rosetta_stoned]

ah i see. thank you for the quick reply. biggest question I guess I had was whether this was something during the recovery phase or not.

 

[Capos]

https://youtu.be/JujpwMKHHgk?t=2m53s

 

[MrMarbles]

Ima just leave this here

 

[firo]

Great stuff marbles! I really liked the way you move with ness and your quick jumps on to the platforms. What's your method for DJCs?

A lot of your combos worked in fairs and nairs to juggle people across the stage. Most of these unfortunately won't work against players who know how to DI them properly (up and away), so I've found myself migrating to more of a tech chasing style.

One thing I noticed is that against pika, if you are getting hit with a fair, a lot of times it makes sense to DI up, especially if the pika is going to land after the fair. You can squeeze in a dair and catch the pika off guard. Also against mario, ness's dair almost always trades with mario's up-b as long as you dont hit him at the very front. It is a nice edgeguard that saves you from having to deal with the fireballs.

 

[MrMarbles]

Great stuff marbles! I really liked the way you move with ness and your quick jumps on to the platforms. What's your method for DJCs?

A lot of your combos worked in fairs and nairs to juggle people across the stage. Most of these unfortunately won't work against players who know how to DI them properly (up and away), so I've found myself migrating to more of a tech chasing style.

One thing I noticed is that against pika, if you are getting hit with a fair, a lot of times it makes sense to DI up, especially if the pika is going to land after the fair. You can squeeze in a dair and catch the pika off guard. Also against mario, ness's dair almost always trades with mario's up-b as long as you dont hit him at the very front. It is a nice edgeguard that saves you from having to deal with the fireballs.

thanks for the tips! i love his combos but sadly they wont be as effective with good di ive been working on improving my tech chasing but im still iffy at it. One thing that would really help would be using the djc rush but so far i have been really bad at them despite some training mode working on it. to djc on the ground i use my thumb to slide across the buttons right c ->down c ->A. if i am landing on the platforms i just use right c followed by the r trigger. idk why but i find the r trigger easier to land on plats with. I love the button sliding method for djc on the ground however i feel like it is VERY hard to dj rush using this method cuz it's a bit too slow. maybe i just need more practice

 

[DrPac]

Ima just leave this here

Stuff like this makes me really wish I could play SS64 competitively, but I suck at that one.

 

[Deleted member]

you play ness too? wut?

 

[MrMarbles]

you play ness too? wut?

yep but not online the frame delay makes ness too difficult. no idea how people like @ Twilight Sparkle and villiany do it

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

yep but not online the frame delay makes ness too difficult. no idea how people like @ Twilight Sparkle and villiany do it

Very carefully

Also, really nice movement with Ness there Marbles, this is some great stuff

 

[Deleted member]

In my opinion, there aren't any GREAT ness's online.

 

[MrMarbles]

In my opinion, there aren't any GREAT ness's online.

thats cuz ness vs kirby is pretty broken

 

[Deleted member]

thats cuz ness vs kirby is pretty broken

eat the uptilt! :D

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

I think I'll stand back and PK Fire you instead.
Burn, baby burn c:

 

[Cedricwa]

Grabbing them and holding them in the pk fire is so satisfying

 

[ELITEWarri0r115]

What's wrong with ness? sure everyone hates him, but not me and a few others. He is a good character, but not the best. (just now discovered this area)