Ness changes in Ultimate

[ThatGeneric]

Hey guys! I recently got to play Smash Ultimate. Once today, and once about a month ago. I played quite a lot of matches as Ness, and I just wanna share some of the changes I noticed

How the mechanics change Ness:

Starting with how they buff him, he can now easily do a running down-smash at ledge, as 2-framing is still in this game. The new air-dodge can benefit him. Opponents can no longer spam air-dodge when he tries to edgeguard with PK Thunder. This makes his edgeguarding game even better.
However, the air dodge change has it’s problems for Ness. His amazing air-dodge is now gone. It can be used to help recover though. As well as this, the decreases to landing-lag on aerials benefits him a lot.

Aerials:

Nair- Slightly bigger hitbox, which is great for edgeguarding.
Fair- Pretty great at drag-down combos now, especially into another grab. The reduced landing lag is extremely beneficial to this move in particular.
Bair- Pretty much same as before.
Dair- This move is pretty amazing now. The meteor hitbox has been increased, so now it’s easier to sweet-spot. It also kills much earlier, making it an actual viable option. And yes, it still a-cancels.
Uair- This move has been completely re-worked. It is now a multi-hit move. The main problem with this is that multi-hit and aerials don’t always work too well. I noticed that some opponents could escape from the move. However, it kills earlier than previously (for some reason), and it gives Ness another aerial for drag-down combos.

Normals:

Jab- I didn’t notice a change, but d-tilt benefits from being performed out of a dash.
Tilts- No change here either.
F-Smash- Same as before.
D-Smash- Again, seriously benefits from performing the move out of a dash.
U-Smash- It’s actually a good move now. It kills at an earlier percent and is still about as fast as before.
Throws- Yeah basically the same, down throw is a combo throw, back throw kills at the same ridiculous percents, forward throw is still for killing at 30% on smashville platforms, and up throw still sucks. However, his pummel has changed, it is now a slow, strong pummel.

Specials:

PK Flash- It’s an actual viable move now! It moves faster and further; a good edgeguarding option.
PK Fire- New animation, and I think it’s harder to SDI, but not too sure on that.
PK Thunder- The projectile is about the same, but PKT2 kills earlier. However, if you hit another player or a projectile with PKT2 off stage, you go a much shorter distance than before.
PK Magnet- You don’t lose horizontal momentum when you use it now, so it aids recoveries better.

And that’s about it as far as the Ness changes go. At least the ones I noticed. He’s a better character in Ultimate than a lot of the top players are saying in my opinion (but I’m not a top player, so...) In my opinion, he’s a solid high-tier, at least in the demo build.

 

[MysticKnives]

Don’t know where he’ll end up, but it’s very nice to see more about him

 

[Luigifan18]

PK Fire is one of my favorite moves. The increased lag for increased reliability seems like a fair trade-off - I loved trapping foes in PK Fire and then whacking them with my bat in previous titles.

 

[MysticKnives]

The Up Smash, Down Smash by ledge and off dash, and the buffer meteor smash are the things I’m most excited for

 

[Seb59]

Ness mains where u at?

 

[Mysteltainn]

Is it just me or is PSI Thunder easier to control? I always got the hang of using it in each game, but I've only been playing a mere few hours and am rusty as all hell, but I noted that the skill seems considerably cleaner; kind of like Lucas'.

 

[Zoneyboi]

I'm not smart enough to say how Ness' neutral will improve or worsen from the mechanics changes but I think he at least feels as good as 4. Something I like is that PK Flash stalls you in the air so you can drop ledge and immediately be aggressive against your edge guarder without even really losing much height.

 

[paradvx]

honestly not liking what i'm seeing so far with ness. Genuinely disappointed in this games version of him so far. Miss the old up air having a quick and reliable hitbox to net early kills. The new one seems harder to land reliably from my experience so far, but the game just came out so only time will tell.

 

[Mysteltainn]

I find him to be about the same except for PSI Thunder feeling a bit easier to handle, but landing has been difficult with the new dodge mechanics since Ness doesn't have a whole lot of options against players below his field who have disjointed U-Airs.

 

[Your God John]

Thunder feels about the same for me...if not better. Like most Ness mains I can do PKT2 blindfolded and that hasn't changed here. It actually feels more fluid.

Gimping an off stage Ness, though. That feels easier. I hit a recovering Ness with thunder and the poor guy only traveled 1/4 of the distance.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I tried out Ness at a friends' place, and man Im excited for this character. He's got a lot of potential and his moveset as a whole seems more viable than what it was in Smash 4.

Right now Ness is my Ult main, with Mario being my secondary.

 

[RPGsFTW]

So I played against a Ness online last night as K.Rool. I understand that I'm a huge target. but getting hit by PK Fire ever meant me taking absurd amounts of damage, like, upwards to 80% off of a combo of grabs and Fairs that the PK Fire leads into. The best I could do was barely move up in the middle of the fire, which would occasionally allow me to avoid his follow ups, but it was extremely inconsistent.

That being said, I really don't understand what the best way to deal with PK Fire is. Should I run up and shield? It's seems common for a Ness to mix up a blocked PK Fire by doing a second one, which is also annoying. Should I not be mashing the control stick up and away?

I also completely forgot that K.Rool had a counter move, so I never got to try it, so I'm not sure in what way it would have helped, if at all.

 

[meleebrawler]

So I played against a Ness online last night as K.Rool. I understand that I'm a huge target. but getting hit by PK Fire ever meant me taking absurd amounts of damage, like, upwards to 80% off of a combo of grabs and Fairs that the PK Fire leads into. The best I could do was barely move up in the middle of the fire, which would occasionally allow me to avoid his follow ups, but it was extremely inconsistent.

That being said, I really don't understand what the best way to deal with PK Fire is. Should I run up and shield? It's seems common for a Ness to mix up a blocked PK Fire by doing a second one, which is also annoying. Should I not be mashing the control stick up and away?

I also completely forgot that K.Rool had a counter move, so I never got to try it, so I'm not sure in what way it would have helped, if at all.

Gut Check can reflect projectiles. Since PK Fire has noticeable startup it shouldn't be too hard to do on a Ness who uses it too much.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Gut Check can reflect projectiles. Since PK Fire has noticeable startup it shouldn't be too hard to do on a Ness who uses it too much.

God, I wish I had not have forgotten about the counter, ugh. That probably would have been VERY helpful.

Also, again, what is the best thing to do against PK Fire? Not just as K.Rool, but as anyone? Should I just shield it, or am I negative on block? And, if hit, should I be mashing the stick up and away, or is there some other smart thing I could be doing?

 

[meleebrawler]

God, I wish I had not have forgotten about the counter, ugh. That probably would have been VERY helpful.

Also, again, what is the best thing to do against PK Fire? Not just as K.Rool, but as anyone? Should I just shield it, or am I negative on block? And, if hit, should I be mashing the stick up and away, or is there some other smart thing I could be doing?

Can't say anything about DI, but as far as I know it doesn't ignite on shield still? Blocking should still be OK if that's the case.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Can't say anything about DI, but as far as I know it doesn't ignite on shield still? Blocking should still be OK if that's the case.

You are right, it does not seem to ignite on shields, but I couldn't accurately tell if I was in a safe enough position afterwards to follow up. Again, I was K.Rool, and using counter probably would have made it go over infinitely better, or hopefully, but as a reference for when I'm anyone else I was just curious.

I feel like I should try blocking it more and going from there, lol.

 

[Specs64z]

You are right, it does not seem to ignite on shields, but I couldn't accurately tell if I was in a safe enough position afterwards to follow up. Again, I was K.Rool, and using counter probably would have made it go over infinitely better, or hopefully, but as a reference for when I'm anyone else I was just curious.

I feel like I should try blocking it more and going from there, lol.

Reflecting PK fire won't work out very well, from what I've tested. Your best bet is to either throw crown to hit him during PK fire's lag or to just jump over it. But don't get too jumpy or you'll start eating fairs, nairs, and PK thunders. Also, your nair can tank PK thunder 2 and gimp Ness.
Anyways, here's a bunch of data I've gathered since finding reliable Ness data has proven difficult. I'm no data miner, so this is all been gathered in the training room using the frame-by-frame tool. If anyone sees any flaws, be sure to call me out. I'd hate to spread even more misinformation about buffs/nerfs than already exists.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l7_4rJGAzumRPMg74BJoJhvSx3yubr5UVVgA6d9rr6o/edit?usp=sharing\

Here's my messy google doc with some basic frame data and damage values, along with a general list of buffs/nerfs.

 

[paradvx]

what?? sorry not trying to be rude but are you guys beginners cause reflecting a pk fire spammer is 100% a viable strategy. Ness's "spammable" moves all have large start ups and are very telegraphed. You can reliably reflect or punish PK fire to the point where in most games it's only considered a useful move if you short hop cancel pk fire so that you spring forward or backwards while sending out a diagonal pk fire. otherwise it's extremely punishable in neutral.

After playing around with ness more I think he's ok in smash ultimate. His up air is useful for netting kills but no where near as versatile as it was before. Since the hitbox is multi hit now instead of being a quick head but it's hard to get in there and reliably get off the uair as a part of a combo and net a kill. That being said, you can combo it (if you sourspot it) into another move. i did it while someone was on a platform above me.... can't remember what move i used after.

His bread and butter PK fire -> down throw -> fair still works. I'll throw in PK fire -> down throw -> nair if the fairs get too predictable.

Because of the expanded cast, his PK thunder recovery is even more of a liability. Got bodied by a squirtle who just had to get me off the edge and spray me with water to net early gimp kills. Every game ness starts off mid-high on everyone's tier lists but slowly drops over time because of how easily exploitable his recovery is... and this game is no different.

His air movement feels better since his aerial attacks are all faster now. the problem i'm having is with the airdodge mechanic changes. I admittedly probably spammed them too much because of how good they were in smash 4, but it feels really hard to land with ness in this game. In smash 4 i could mix in his double jumps and dodges (similar animations too) to reliably land but now the end lag after an airdodge makes this way too punishable. For now i've been throwing nairs and bairs while landing to keep people off me. Definitely feel like with the airdodge change and ****ty b up he will be very easy to juggle. Granted, his air speed is faster and his jump is higher.

to top it off you can't taunt in online so I can't hit em with that OK. huge nerf.

 

[Specs64z]

what?? sorry not trying to be rude but are you guys beginners cause reflecting a pk fire spammer is 100% a viable strategy. Ness's "spammable" moves all have large start ups and are very telegraphed. You can reliably reflect or punish PK fire to the point where in most games it's only considered a useful move if you short hop cancel pk fire so that you spring forward or backwards while sending out a diagonal pk fire. otherwise it's extremely punishable in neutral.

I never claimed it wasn't reflectable, only that it won't work against a good Ness. PK fire peters out after traveling it's set distance, so spacing PK fire makes it safe against reflectors.

Because of the expanded cast, his PK thunder recovery is even more of a liability. Got bodied by a squirtle who just had to get me off the edge and spray me with water to net early gimp kills. Every game ness starts off mid-high on everyone's tier lists but slowly drops over time because of how easily exploitable his recovery is... and this game is no different.

His air movement feels better since his aerial attacks are all faster now. the problem i'm having is with the airdodge mechanic changes. I admittedly probably spammed them too much because of how good they were in smash 4, but it feels really hard to land with ness in this game. In smash 4 i could mix in his double jumps and dodges (similar animations too) to reliably land but now the end lag after an airdodge makes this way too punishable. For now i've been throwing nairs and bairs while landing to keep people off me. Definitely feel like with the airdodge change and ****ty b up he will be very easy to juggle. Granted, his air speed is faster and his jump is higher.

Actually, Ness's recovery in this game is better than ever thanks to the airdodge. His directional airdodge goes forever far, it's basically a third, invincible jump toward ledge if it's fresh, which forces opponents to go pretty deep if they want any chance of punishing you, and that sort of movement can be thrown off with PK flash/PSI magnet air stalling tactics, throwing out aerials, and Ness's insane air acceleration/traction.

Getting gimped by aerials off stage because of the change is hardly exclusive to Ness (also PK thunder juggles off stage are actually borked), and I'd even argue it's worse for most other characters since not many of them have Ness's great double jump. We're really not any worse off than SSB4, recovery-wise.

to top it off you can't taunt in online so I can't hit em with that OK. huge nerf.

No online taunts gives characters like Jigglypuff and Dedede such a distinct advantage it's not even fair XD

 

[paradvx]

Actually, Ness's recovery in this game is better than ever thanks to the airdodge. His directional airdodge goes forever far, it's basically a third, invincible jump toward ledge if it's fresh, which forces opponents to go pretty deep if they want any chance of punishing you

bro... what?? you've got to be literally the only person i've ever seen saying that the airdodge change is a BUFF for ness. The amount of lag it has makes you an easy target afterwards and any halfway decent player will read/punish.

genuine question: do you play competitively?

 

[Specs64z]

bro... what?? you've got to be literally the only person i've ever seen saying that the airdodge change is a BUFF for ness. The amount of lag it has makes you an easy target afterwards and any halfway decent player will read/punish.

genuine question: do you play competitively?

Yes, I do play competitive. I carried my buddy to grands in my local doubles tourney last week. If you still want to push it, you can make fun of me for winning at a super weak scene, but I really don't appreciate you talking down to me like that.

Why are you bringing airdodge ending lag into the picture when I'm talking about airdodge -> ledge grab? There is no end lag if you airdodge within range of ledge grab, which is very easy to do. Ness still has insane magnet hands and his airdodge covers more distance than most double jumps.

Also, this is worth noting: the airdodge is a nerf for everybody. Nobody escaped that change unscathed. Literally every character with a linear recovery got worse. Luigi, Mario, Cloud, Captain Falcon, and Marth just to name a few. One well placed aerial at low percent and they're dead. Saying "well Ness gets gimped at super low percents" doesn't mean as much as it did in Smash 4 because almost no recovery is free in this game.

Therefore, in my opinion, his recovery is comparatively better than it's ever been.

 

[paradvx]

i'm not looking down on your for playing a small scene or anything i'm just wondering cause you joined smashboards today. sorry if it came off that way.

it's a huge nerf because people can still punish it. airdodge to ledge is not safe and if you do it consistently you sure as hell will get punished for doing that.

Why are you bringing airdodge ending lag into the picture when I'm talking about airdodge -> ledge grab?

you were responding to my comment in which i said the airdodge change is a huge nerf to ness's ability to land. just because your reply talks about the ledge grabbing alone doesn't mean i have to only mention it in the context of that. The comment of mine you were replying to in the first place was specifically talking about endlag so not sure why you ignored that.

it feels really hard to land with ness in this game. In smash 4 i could mix in his double jumps and dodges (similar animations too) to reliably land but now the end lag after an airdodge makes this way too punishable.

The problem is that you can't quickly input a move after air dodging or repeatedly airdodge. this makes air dodging as a whole less safe.

Also, this is worth noting: the airdodge is a nerf for everybody. Nobody escaped that change unscathed. Literally every character with a linear recovery got worse. Luigi, Mario, Cloud, Captain Falcon, and Marth just to name a few. One well placed aerial at low percent and they're dead. Saying "well Ness gets gimped at super low percents" doesn't mean as much as it did in Smash 4 because almost no recovery is free in this game.

well this just isn't true. first of all, i'm not just just talking about recovering to the stage. It's about landing on the stage when the opponent has stage control, period. This means landing after your opponent just hit you in the air as well. Ness is particularly affected by this because he is an easy to juggle character that has a hard time landing. In every smash game ever this has been a problem for him. In 4 you could throw in air dodges to help avoid being juggled, in ultimate you have to be much more careful. This is why ness is more affected by the change than other characters, vertical recovery or not. Furthermore, ness is considered to have one of the worst recoveries in game because of relying on PK thunder. This is leagues worse than mario or any of the people you mentioned (although people like cloud do lose 'points' competitively because of their terrible recovery). The problem is that any good player can easily jump off the stage when they see a ness trying to hit himself with PK thunder 1 and 1.) hit ness 2.) airdodge through ness and hit the ball 3.) hit the ball directly. This is why certain matchups like rosalina are considered so bad; she can down b to call the ball and auto gimp. same goes for characters with water who can simply push you away from the ball completely ruining your recovery like mario (down b) and squirtle (water gun). Other characters can hit the ball with projectiles like link arrows, peach turnips, pikachu thundershock, and the list goes on. If they don't have a reflect (fox, zelda, falco list goes on), absorb move (game and watch, ness, lucas), a way to cheese the ball away from you, or a projectile, then they can quite literally just jump off stage airdodge right through you and get hit with PK thunder 1 putting you in free fall. This makes it leagues worse than any linear recovery and that's why he always falls tiers even though he's a solid character.

that's what makes his recovery trash in general. airdodge changes are just the icing on the cake giving him one less movement option in the air making him even more predictable once you start juggling him. Nairs, bairs, and faith are all we have now to aid in landing

edit: this video should explain to you the airdodge changes and why it's a nerf not an improvement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fptxg9lcnrs

that's nakat (a pro player + ness main in smash 4) explaining why it's nerfed from 4, the new lag, and how it's not safe to airdodge to ledge.

 

[Specs64z]

i'm not looking down on your for playing a small scene or anything i'm just wondering cause you joined smashboards today. sorry if it came off that way.

You're good. I was just a little bothered that my hard work to gather some (admittedly basic and messy to read) frame data/damage values and assemble an accurate list of buffs/nerfs got me the "casual" label. Since you didn't read it (and you really should if you plan to play Ness seriously, there are a number of tiny details like the PK fire change I mentioned that a lot of people just don't know about) I can't blame you for assuming that.

it's a huge nerf because people can still punish it. airdodge to ledge is not safe and if you do it consistently you sure as hell will get punished for doing that.

you were responding to my comment in which i said the airdodge change is a huge nerf to ness's ability to land. just because your reply talks about the ledge grabbing alone doesn't mean i have to only mention it in the context of that. The comment of mine you were replying to in the first place was specifically talking about endlag so not sure why you ignored that in the first place.

Fair enough, I did lose track of what you were initially saying. That's my bad. I guess I just don't view getting juggled as as much of a glaring weakness since as it could be since almost every character gets juggled pretty hard now, plus the change has granted Ness a few unique boons alongside the banes. Even against fast characters, PK thunder is such a brutal chasing tool with the airdodge change that Ness's slow speed doesn't pose nearly as much of an issue as it did in Smash 4 when extending follow ups at mid-high percents.

well this just isn't true. first of all, i'm not just just talking about recovering to the stage. It's about landing on the stage when the opponent has stage control, period. This means landing after your opponent just hit you in the air as well. Ness is particularly affected by this because he is an easy to juggle character that has a hard time landing. In every smash game ever this has been a problem for him. In 4 you could throw in air dodges to help avoid being juggled, in ultimate you have to be much more careful. This is why ness is more affected by the change than other characters, vertical recovery or not. Furthermore, ness is considered to have one of the worst recoveries in game because of relying on PK thunder. This is leagues worse than mario or any of the people you mentioned (although people like cloud do lose 'points' competitively because of their terrible recovery). The problem is that any good player can easily jump off the stage when they see a ness trying to hit himself with PK thunder 1 and 1.) hit ness 2.) airdodge through ness and hit the ball 3.) hit the ball directly. This is why certain matchups like rosalina are considered so bad; she can down b to call the ball and auto gimp. same goes for characters with water who can simply push you away from the ball completely ruining your recovery like mario (down b) and squirtle (water gun). Other characters can hit the ball with projectiles like link arrows, peach turnips, pikachu thundershock, and the list goes on. If they don't have a reflect (fox, zelda, falco list goes on), absorb move (game and watch, ness, lucas), a way to cheese the ball away from you, or a projectile, then they can quite literally just jump off stage airdodge right through you and get hit with PK thunder 1 putting you in free fall. This makes it leagues worse than any linear recovery and that's why he always falls tiers even though he's a solid character.

that's what makes his recovery trash in general. airdodge changes are just the icing on the cake giving him one less movement option in the air making him even more predictable once you start juggling him. Nairs, bairs, and faith are all we have now to aid in landing

If they're going for the options you listed to gimp PK thunder and it isn't difficult for them, you're not using PK thunder very responsibly (or maybe they're just really familiar with Ness, not gonna say it can't happen). Hitting Ness before he hits himself is very difficult unless you foolishly attempt to use PK thunder too close to the stage. If you mix up the timing even a little bit, that airdodge through you will result in their suicide with the new mechanics since you shouldn't be using PK thunder in the first place unless you are a safe distance away from the ledge, and hitting the ball directly is easily avoidable if you know what to watch out for and how to react. A lot of that stuff loses some of it's potency with match up knowledge and lots of PK thunder practice.

Plus, all those options still lose out to Ness's insane new airdodge. You obviously can't spam airdodge to ledge, but if you're getting consistently ledge trapped to the point your airdodge doesn't have any frames left, then recovery isn't even the biggest of your problems. You have to recover in the first place to grab ledge, after all.

I feel like I should clarify a bit, because I feel like you think that I think that Ness's recovery is good. I'm not saying Ness has a good recovery, or even a decent one, just that it's better than before because Ness has more options. More options is very important for a character with such debilitating limitations. He has two air stalls with very different results as opposed to one with a static result, neutral airdodge can still get you out of some pretty rough spots when used well, directional airdodge is basically a 3rd jump, and PK thunder is still difficult to block when used skillfully.

 

[paradvx]

Specs64z said:
"If they're going for the options you listed to gimp PK thunder and it isn't difficult for them, you're not using PK thunder very responsibly (or maybe they're just really familiar with Ness, not gonna say it can't happen). Hitting Ness before he hits himself is very difficult unless you foolishly attempt to use PK thunder too close to the stage."


pk thunder has gone mostly unchanged since ness's inception in smash 64 and melee alone has been around for 10 years. It's safe to say a lot of, if not all, competitive players are extremely familiar with the mechanics of ness's up B. It's safe to say experienced players who've dealt with ness in any smash (but especially 4) will know how to counter his UP B and punish it. Also i'm not sure where you are getting that it's better than before because PK Thunder 2 travels a shorter distance after hitting something than it did in smash 4. Hell, people can gimp ness by throwing them self into the move at low enough percents.

I don't know man lets just agree to disagree unless other people want to chime in. Personally, i don't think ness has more options, but rather less now since air dodging makes you so vulnerable and honestly easy to punish like explained in that video. Take away his spammable air dodges and you don't have an easy way to recover like in smash 4.

 

[Specs64z]

I don't know man lets just agree to disagree unless other people want to chime in. Personally, i don't think ness has more options, but rather less now since air dodging makes you so vulnerable and honestly easy to punish like explained in that video. Take away his spammable air dodges and you don't have an easy way to recover like in smash 4.

Fair enough. I admit I'm being really optimistic at the moment, but I was really feeling the changes so i guess I wanted to try and persuade some others that not all hope is lost XD

As the meta develops I'll probably start to swing the other way since people will get better and better at gimping (and no doubt gimping/recovery will play a huge role in determining which top tiers will trash me this time around). I'll enjoy the airdodge while it lasts, I suppose :/

 

[Thunderjay]

Specs64z
PK thunder is such a brutal chasing tool with the airdodge change that Ness's slow speed doesn't pose nearly as much of an issue as it did in Smash 4 when extending follow ups at mid-high percents.

This. The airdodge mechanic gives the opponent fewer options to deal with PKT, especially when your PKT control is unpredictable (throw some diagonals, circles and other curves in there). They have to choose whether to eat it, try to hit it, or use that one airdodge (which won't work if your PKT follows them).

While you get more recoil/endlag from PKT2, it also does more damage, and feels even easier to perform compared to the last game. It can be gimped, but as Ness you're supposed to mixup your recovery, taking advantage of magnet hands, stalls, and saving your double jump. I'm pretty pleased with how it is now as PKT is my favorite move in smash.

ThatGeneric Like your pic, btw

 

[pk_melee]

So I played against a Ness online last night as K.Rool. I understand that I'm a huge target. but getting hit by PK Fire ever meant me taking absurd amounts of damage

Not sure of percentages / DI etc. but I seem to be able to get 5-10 PK Fire spams in on K. Rool easy. Especially just off the ledge.

some notes after a couple days of SmUsh:

The new airdodge mechanics are a HUGE buff for Ness. Gives him a "3rd jump" for more distance or to grab the ledge. Way less of a sitting duck at the end of your 2nd jump.

The "zoom in on K.O. moves" thing is also big for Ness. Takes away the visibility of the stage when you hit them with a PKT2 while recovering, which makes it way harder to tech the hit off the bottom of the stage. Now they bounce and K.O.

In Smash 4 I would constantly get an issue where PKT came out the wrong direction due to lag. You're expecting it on the left, it comes out at top right, and you die as a result. Haven't seen this once on Switch.

dair's hitbox has been buffed enough that's it's now a normal move that can actually hit. More K.O. spikes with it in the last day than in my entirety of Smash 4.

PK Fire spam can get nasty damage. Lots of salt online when you do it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead.

 

[LightLV]

Was playing around with Ness

he honestly feels like one of the worst off characters in the game, either that, or he's just incredibly one-dimensional

If midrange > Fish for PK Fire > grab

If longrange or idle > PK Thunder

unless im missing some gimmick or something, that's like the only good tools he has

 

[Thunderjay]

Was playing around with Ness

he honestly feels like one of the worst off characters in the game, either that, or he's just incredibly one-dimensional

If midrange > Fish for PK Fire > grab

If longrange or idle > PK Thunder

unless im missing some gimmick or something, that's like the only good tools he has

I mean, yeah he has those tools, but those aren't the only tools he has.

Dash attack for chasing rolls and landings, which can pop up opponents for juggles.
Fair for making combos; Nair for getting out of combos.
Bair and Uair kill.
Usmash (kill move that covers large area) and Dair (spike) are actually decent now.
PK Flash is actually a decent edgeguarding tool now.
PSI Magnet still has that bit of startup that I don't like, but you can use it to absorb or stall you in the air when recovering.
etc...

 

[Bromingo]

I'm not sure if Sm4sh Ness' D-special had a hitbox, but now it does, which is a pretty big change

 

[FamicomDisk]

I'm not sure if Sm4sh Ness' D-special had a hitbox, but now it does, which is a pretty big change

It is new to Ultimate! Works pretty similarly to the one Lucas has.

 

[LightLV]

I'm not sure if Sm4sh Ness' D-special had a hitbox, but now it does, which is a pretty big change

He can sleep his yo-yos again, something he had in Melee and Brawl but for whatever silly reason they removed it from Smash 4.

 

[Luigifan18]

Ness mains where u at?

I’m here, but I don't have Ultimate yet, and don't look to me for fancy combos — I have minor motor control difficulties.

 

[paradvx]

after playing ness more over the past few days i still think his up air is huge downgrade. shorthopping it to get a kill can lead to you hitting the ground before the move actually kills where the old one wouldn't. that being said his upsmash makes up for it since it nets kills around 100 and gives ness more kill options. you can combo sourspot up air into upsmash for a kill confirm if you do flub the up air kill.

I'm liking the mind games with pk thunder 1 into pk thunder 2 (stuff like hitting them with the tail to stun them doing a loop and hitting yourself with it to kill them with pkthunder 2) with the new air dodge. it's easier to bait people into getting hit by pk thunder 2 than ever before.

Still think he's more vulnerable than ever in the air though. I've been reliably gimping nesses by throwing myself into pk thunder 2 to shorten the distance if they're far from the ledge. if i'm high enough damage to die i'll still go for it if i think i can hit the side of the stage and tech it.

edit: holy **** magnet got a huge buff. it can eat physical projectiles like links arrow and boomerang. never thought to try this out of habit but saw it in this match with fow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Woy5iEvUI . seems like you don't get health back though

 

[Sajomir]

edit: holy **** magnet got a huge buff. it can eat physical projectiles like links arrow and boomerang. never thought to try this out of habit but saw it in this match with fow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Woy5iEvUI . seems like you don't get health back though

FYI, I love watching a Ness match, but timestamps are really appreciated when referencing a particular instance in a video.

7:15 shows the magnet's hitbox doing stuff with Link's bomb, but it's not eaten.
8:05 same thing, the boomerang is deflected by the magnet hitbox, you can see it fall to the ground. Ness's damage doesn't change.
12:40 is a little more interesting. once again the boomerang is deflected (you can see it bounce away just as before), but it looks like Ness absorbs the explosion from adult link's bomb. I guess it's not considered fire damage this time around?

Also from personal experience, Mii Gunner / Samus's super missile has clocked me through magnet when I tried to anticipate the charge beam.

While Ness can't absorb physical projectiles, it IS good info that magnet can knock away minor projectiles and that he can absorb Link's bombs. Maybe the missiles still hit me because of the explosion out-prioritizing the small/weak magnet hitbox?

 

[Luigifan18]

FYI, I love watching a Ness match, but timestamps are really appreciated when referencing a particular instance in a video.

7:15 shows the magnet's hitbox doing stuff with Link's bomb, but it's not eaten.
8:05 same thing, the boomerang is deflected by the magnet hitbox, you can see it fall to the ground. Ness's damage doesn't change.
12:40 is a little more interesting. once again the boomerang is deflected (you can see it bounce away just as before), but it looks like Ness absorbs the explosion from adult link's bomb. I guess it's not considered fire damage this time around?

Also from personal experience, Mii Gunner / Samus's super missile has clocked me through magnet when I tried to anticipate the charge beam.

While Ness can't absorb physical projectiles, it IS good info that magnet can knock away minor projectiles and that he can absorb Link's bombs. Maybe the missiles still hit me because of the explosion out-prioritizing the small/weak magnet hitbox?

Explosions have been absorbable since Smash 4. (I'm still disappointed that Oil Panic and PSI Magnet/Absorbing Vortex are the only absorbing moves, but it's nice that they've all been buffed to provide general projectile protection.)

 

[paradvx]

my bad for not including the time stamp i was sleep deprived watching the video at 3:30 am when i edited my post haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Woy5iEvUI
8:23 is when he eats the arrow.

i think the hit box they gave the magnet hits the projectile making it stop weaker ones like links boomerang and arrow. stronger projectiles like samus missiles might beat out the magnet's hitbox ... not sure to be honest. need to test now with turnips, snake grenades, and similar projectiles. doubt it'll stop simon/richter spam just like samus missiles

 

[Outlawstarx]

Ness's recovery is beyond terrible in ultimate. It's just too many ways to stop it. Now most people just jump in front of pk thunder 2 and it stops all momentum. It's really ridiculous that they made an already bad recovery even worse.

 

[Luigifan18]

Ness's recovery is beyond terrible in ultimate. It's just too many ways to stop it. Now most people just jump in front of pk thunder 2 and it stops all momentum. It's really ridiculous that they made an already bad recovery even worse.

Wait, what?!? Does it really lose its momentum upon hitting somebody?!?